First of all, I would like to thank johnny123 on TL, for posting these videos in the other HotS Thread The reason I'm basically summarizing these interviews and posting them in a new thread, is because discussion regarding these videos was instantly buried in the other thread, and there is some pretty amazing new info that I believe everyone should hear.
I'm just going to quickly summarize what happens in each video, but I highly recommend you watch these videos.
Goes into detail about the reasoning behind no lan, as well as some features the new resume from replay feature has in store, as well as talks as to when to expect to see the HotS beta. Apparently if I heard correctly, you can resume the game 10 seconds before a disconnect or crash, as well as allow the A.I to take control of the other player in the replay and imitate their actions.
This could allow you to have someone perform a rush, and then allow the A.I to play it out again from a replay so you can practice against defending the rush. Sounds very cool and exciting! Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
He also talks about how there are some things that are in Heart of the Swarm that we haven't seen yet, such as new variants of the Nydus Worm, and example being that there is a new Nydus Worm that spits out creep, thus allowing you to spread your creep across the map tactically.
Basically Dustin Browder discusess the new units, and what role he hopes they will fill for each respective race. The Widow Mine in particular, the team is having issues balancing the unit in regards to the cost of it. The unit is very powerful and pricing it accordingly is proving to be a difficult task. They don't want it to be too expensive so terran players don't make them, however they don't want them to be too cheap either. David Kim http://www.g4tv.com/videos/59213/starcraft-2-heart-of-the-swarm-new-units-explained-by-david-kim/
David Kim goes over the reasoning behind the design decisions for the new units for heart of the swarm. He also discusses how Terran is being changed, so they can sit back and macro a powerful army via Mech, like how Zerg and Protoss players currently are in WoL. David also discusses how Global Rank and ladder will play out in HotS Sam Didier http://www.g4tv.com/videos/59212/starcraft-2-heart-of-the-swarm-new-units-gameplay-preview-with-sam-didier/
Talks about his role as art director for Blizzard, and how he looks forward to working on Legacy of the Void Expansion artwork. Basically he says there will be some new units in the campaign that we will see that were cut out from multiplayer, due to balancing issues and other reasons.
My favorite thing of all, is simply the resume from replay feature. That is going to be simply amazing, especially for progamers who want to refine and perfect the build orders and defense against cheese, rushes and large macro games.
.....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
Keep in mind Spider Mines never attacked air, nor had a detonation time of 10 seconds.
I don't really like the idea of giving it to the Reaper because it doesn't go well with Mech, and I definitely don't like the idea of making the Hellion a Wannabe Vulture. If any unit should have this as an ability, it should be a new unit that regenerates it's stock overtime.
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
See that's the thing. Widow Mines now cost supply, and as DB was saying they want supply to be moved all over the map, so players stray away from large death balls. They would likely have to increase the cost of the hellion in that case as the widow mine hits both air and ground with splash damage.
It should be interesting to see what pros will be able to do with the unit during the beta.
Thanks for the post, i hadn't seen the Sigaty interview and it was definitely one of the most interesting one on HOTS edit: The david kim interview is depressing though.. the thought process behind the new units is so poor .
Hey guys so a problem I have with the old Hots mine was that, if its so effective at dealing with harass, then the enemy might not even harass at all, right? Instead they would invest more into a deathball, if the enemy can defend harass easier with the mine than previously without the mine. They got rid of that now we have the widow mine, but the question is...
do the other races have improved harass and counterattacks etc.? Zerg viper+hydra/anyotherzergunit fast-aggressive-non-deathball style in lategame might require you to get mines, and still be scary
Otherwise it seems you just have more efficient defense with the widow mines, and the enemy has actually less incentive to split their army up. Well I guess the defending player has supply split up more so his army is smaller, but it might not work if viper+zerg proves to not be good enough at harassing and forcing widow mines and defense. Also a thing I don't like about it is that yes, mines take supply and take army supply away, but it just doesn't feel like splitting tanks up. It's so much more fun splitting your tanks up, actual army units, not mines, which feel like mechanisms that take supply.
also thanks for compiling these interviews, i didn't see many of these
If they're already talking about the mine being "too powerful" i see no hope for this expansion. Terran barely gets anything in HOTS, the mine being basically the one good thing Terran does get overall.
On June 15 2012 06:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Hey guys so a problem I have with the old Hots mine was that, if its so effective at dealing with harass, then the enemy might not even harass at all, right? Instead they would invest more into a deathball, if the enemy can defend harass easier with the mine than previously without the mine. They got rid of that now we have the widow mine, but the question is...
do the other races have improved harass and counterattacks etc.? Zerg viper+hydra/anyotherzergunit fast-aggressive-non-deathball style in lategame might require you to get mines, and still be scary
Otherwise it seems you just have more efficient defense with the widow mines, and the enemy has actually less incentive to split their army up. Well I guess the defending player has supply split up more so his army is smaller, but it might not work if viper+zerg proves to not be good enough at harassing and forcing widow mines and defense. Also a thing I don't like about it is that yes, mines take supply and take army supply away, but it just doesn't feel like splitting tanks up. It's so much more fun splitting your tanks up, actual army units, not mines, which feel like mechanisms that take supply.
also thanks for compiling these interviews, i didn't see many of these
Protoss has the oracle, which allows them to stop mining for 30 seconds iirc, unless you destroy their entomb field. I agree, and have the same concern you have with the widow mining, that being that it costs supply.
The reason I like Terran so much is because of the high level of micro and positioning involved in all 3 match ups. For me, the widow mine is completely RNG. Yes you can position them however you want and they can attack both air and ground, but you never know what you're going to kill, and the 10 second timer gives your opponent plenty of time to remove the unit that has the mine on it to be removed from the army clump.
At least in broodwar you knew you would kill something the majority of the time with the spider mine, and it was instant(kinda)
It's going to be pretty fun to use in TvT and TvP though. Still, we have no idea how these units will work under the hands of the pros.
On June 15 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: If they're already talking about the mine being "too powerful" i see no hope for this expansion. Terran barely gets anything in HOTS, the mine being basically the one good thing Terran does get overall.
That's the spirit! Cool that you already see no hope for this expansion if something might happen which you have no idea how it plays out.
I enjoyed the part about pathing and that is makes AOEs really hard to balance. Also, making insane units and then bringing them into balance is also a great way to make sure the units are designed well.
Why is Chris Sigaty a large part about the LAN and then when will HOTS come out. The rest of it is superb, and you probably could have gone farther if you didn't dig up a dead horse's grave when they generate the same old answers.
This could allow you to have someone perform a rush, and then allow the A.I to play it out again from a replay so you can practice against defending the rush. Sounds very cool and exciting!
This imo is the most important thing... not even practice partners can do exactly the same thing. Would be awesome if implemented.
On June 15 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: If they're already talking about the mine being "too powerful" i see no hope for this expansion. Terran barely gets anything in HOTS, the mine being basically the one good thing Terran does get overall.
I think people underestimate the impact of having Hellions now being viable straight up fighters, and buffer for tanks, and warhounds possibly making mech viable vs. Protoss. Options against Protoss are pretty much doubling.
On June 15 2012 06:52 Torte de Lini wrote: Why is Chris Sigaty a large part about the LAN and then when will HOTS come out. The rest of it is superb, and you probably could have gone farther if you didn't dig up a dead horse's grave when they generate the same old answers.
What are you talking about, I'm not the interviewer in these videos. That's why I wanted the thread title to be changed ._.
On June 15 2012 06:52 Torte de Lini wrote: Why is Chris Sigaty a large part about the LAN and then when will HOTS come out. The rest of it is superb, and you probably could have gone farther if you didn't dig up a dead horse's grave when they generate the same old answers.
What are you talking about, I'm not the interviewer in these videos. That's why I wanted the thread title to be changed ._.
Sorry, I didn't mean you as in you specifically. It's obvious you're not chobopeon.
On June 15 2012 07:09 Micket wrote: Why don't they just make widow mines free and available on a unit that only costs minerals, and cost 0 supply, will solve all problems.
Cuz that would mean defeat for DB and his entire team.
Mines that blow up shit in the air feels wrong btw.
browder, kim and didier just say the same things in their interview. I was expecting some insight in the art side from didier
On June 15 2012 07:09 Micket wrote: Mines that blow up shit in the air feels wrong btw.
This is actually very similar to irradiate in bw, if you don't pay attention to take away your contaminated air units, you will suffer a lot of damage. (microoooooo)
On June 15 2012 07:24 Superouman wrote: browder, kim and didier just say the same things in their interview. I was expecting some insight in the art side from didier
They pretty much get asked the same questions about HoTS. The one thing I did really pull was that browder and kim basically alluded to that alot of the units design and functionality choices seem to revolve around mirror matches in PvP and TvT they want those matches to be more diverse.
On June 15 2012 07:09 Micket wrote: Why don't they just make widow mines free and available on a unit that only costs minerals, and cost 0 supply, will solve all problems.
because that would both make sense and mech work vs protoss, something that cannot be allowed without transforming robots.
On June 15 2012 07:09 Micket wrote: Why don't they just make widow mines free and available on a unit that only costs minerals, and cost 0 supply, will solve all problems.
because that would both make sense and mech work vs protoss, something that cannot be allowed without transforming robots.
Because we can't play BW?
Widow mine resembles irradiate the most. Making it spammable like the spider mine won't add any micro and the deathballing effect increases. Widow mines are the exact opposite in this regard. Costing supply, requiring spread(for map control) and countering deathballs, awesome design. Balancing aoe/detonation timer/dmg/supply will be quite hard though :/
On June 15 2012 07:09 Micket wrote: Why don't they just make widow mines free and available on a unit that only costs minerals, and cost 0 supply, will solve all problems.
because that would both make sense and mech work vs protoss, something that cannot be allowed without transforming robots.
Because we can't play BW?
Widow mine resembles irradiate the most. Making it spammable like the spider mine won't add any micro and the deathballing effect increases. Widow mines are the exact opposite in this regard. Costing supply, requiring spread(for map control) and countering deathballs, awesome design. Balancing aoe/detonation timer/dmg/supply will be quite hard though :/
I don't want widow mines, I want mech to work. I want spider mines. Spider mines require you to be all over the map with your vultures (hellions) and counter deathballs. They give some map control, a protoss has to be cautious heading out into the map and add depth to the race and strategy. We already have 3 supply tanks that don't really do damage to protoss to begin with - don't make our mines take up supply too.
On June 15 2012 07:09 Micket wrote: Why don't they just make widow mines free and available on a unit that only costs minerals, and cost 0 supply, will solve all problems.
because that would both make sense and mech work vs protoss, something that cannot be allowed without transforming robots.
Because we can't play BW?
Widow mine resembles irradiate the most. Making it spammable like the spider mine won't add any micro and the deathballing effect increases. Widow mines are the exact opposite in this regard. Costing supply, requiring spread(for map control) and countering deathballs, awesome design. Balancing aoe/detonation timer/dmg/supply will be quite hard though :/
I don't want widow mines, I want mech to work. I want spider mines. Spider mines require you to be all over the map with your vultures (hellions) and counter deathballs. They give some map control, a protoss has to be cautious heading out into the map and add depth to the race and strategy. We already have 3 supply tanks that don't really do damage to protoss to begin with - don't make our mines take up supply too.
On June 15 2012 07:09 Micket wrote: Why don't they just make widow mines free and available on a unit that only costs minerals, and cost 0 supply, will solve all problems.
because that would both make sense and mech work vs protoss, something that cannot be allowed without transforming robots.
Because we can't play BW?
Widow mine resembles irradiate the most. Making it spammable like the spider mine won't add any micro and the deathballing effect increases. Widow mines are the exact opposite in this regard. Costing supply, requiring spread(for map control) and countering deathballs, awesome design. Balancing aoe/detonation timer/dmg/supply will be quite hard though :/
I don't want widow mines, I want mech to work. I want spider mines. Spider mines require you to be all over the map with your vultures (hellions) and counter deathballs. They give some map control, a protoss has to be cautious heading out into the map and add depth to the race and strategy. We already have 3 supply tanks that don't really do damage to protoss to begin with - don't make our mines take up supply too.
It really was the counter to Protoss deathballs. On the other hand, it did, in a sense, create the Terran deathball, but it wasn't an A move deathball. It was a slow ponderous beast with multiple lines of defence that needed setting up. And to counter Protoss had to spread out and flank or die if they clumped up too much. Spreading out was also rewarded a little more because Tanks over-killed. Even if you could 1a and could unit clump better, you wouldn't want to or else mines and tank fire would kill everything. The other option was to force the Terran army to break camp to deal with harass in multiple locations with Arbiter or Carrier tech.
If they're looking for the anti-deathball, then over-killing tanks + mines with splash is your answer.
The nice thing about 'free mines' is that for a little bit of money to get the vutures, you got all sorts of unit interactions all over the map. Vultures laying mines versus dragoon+observer mine sweeping. The vultures also were useful for worker raids and cannon fodder to protect the tanks. Talk about avoiding 1a deathball syndrome. I REALLY hope some version of the widow mine's function makes it into HotS. If they just give up and cut the entire unit concept I shall be very disappointed.
It's just painful how bad some of these design decisions are. It wouldn't be too hard to come up with better ones.
Zerg wants easy detection ASAP? no problem, make them like terran ebay/turret with evolution/overseer! The same! Terran wants mech to be viable. We won't buff the seige tank, the most iconic unit in the game, by making it better or less supply, but we WILL make two MORE BIGGER bio walkers made out of the factory!
Buildable suicide 'units' for zerg only? no way! give some to Terran too so it's more fair!
Frustrated with committing to tech routes with scouting limitations? No problem, ANY tech route you choose as protoss has immediate scouting built with no addons past robo/stargate!
I really don't follow Browders logic on the Tempest. He starts by explaining that toss air units are only used in specific scenarios and they wanted to make something that would give you a reason to go SG no matter what. Then explains how Tempest is primarily for long range harassment to supplement your actual army. The idea of a 22 range non AOE unit is awesome but what stargate is missing are units that can just fight. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Frustrated with committing to tech routes with scouting limitations? No problem, ANY tech route you choose as protoss has immediate scouting built with no addons past robo/stargate!
Well, toss got free scan for 2 mins over enemy building, that detects too and cannot be killed or removed.
Also, Overseer after evo-chamber must cast changeling after Lair and his speed must be 1.0 or 0.95 (so double as Overlord), not 1.88, so it will be possible to kill him normally.
"The Widow Mine is like the little sister of a Spider Mine, but now you can control it. And when you target, when it targets a unit, that unit has basically has 10-seconds to live before it implodes."
I'm guessing you have to manually target Widow Mines? That'll make them significantly better, because Zerglings can't clear mine fields by running across them. Day[9] hinted at the same thing during the TvZ Battle Report.
On June 15 2012 08:15 IamBach wrote: For the nydus worm spitting out creep, what does that mean? I thought they already generate creep...
It spits out creep tumors, so basically you could tactically place a creep highway anywhere across the map, that you can spawn a Nydus worm. Obviously there are some things about how exactly it works that we don't know, but we'll know once we finally get to play the beta.
every time someone says "warhound will make mech viable against toss" something inside me dies.
Yes it will. Except that won't be mech but another goddamn mmm variation. Stop fooling yourself. Mech's core consists of stuff like tanks and mines. NOT effin warhounds or thors (like in modern TvZ), because they are no more than another beefier and more boring marauder variation.
If developers can't come up with any interesting concept than at least implement 3 core components: mines, strong tanks and solid factory anti air. Warhound and thor are anti-mech units, both doing what tanks should've in the first place: kill fucking ground army.
Blizzard loves talking about role overlap and removing iconic units because of that. U know what, I see three units from the same production facility designed to do the same thing.
How much time will it take our beloved company to realize that?
I would've shut up if those two robotic poopsters had some unique roles, like warhound being anti air and thor being added to the mech army solely to tank damage, but sadly that's not the case: these units are there only to do more "terrible, terrible damage". As if we don't have enough of those.
I don't mind the Warhound as long as it'll be balanced towards a support role to protect the tanks. In these interviews, they mentioned that the Warhound isn't finalized so who knows.
I think mech could still work if tanks still do the bulk of the damage in the composition, with Battle Hellions and Warhounds acting as damage sponges and defense against any light or mechanical units that close in on tanks, respectively.
Then you'd still need to slowly set up tank lines while pushing toward a toss base, and Widow Mines would add protection from flanking.
They should make siege tank like a presudo bunker. When tanks sieges up, it can store up to 4 widow mine, and when tank shoots, it shoots out widow mine.
Mech is already quite strong in TvT. If you made it too much stronger, such as by increasing tank damage output, mightn't that make mech so strong in TvT that it would be all we see? I certainly don't want to see any reduction in the variety in TvT, because I quite like the matchup currently.
"The Widow Mine is like the little sister of a Spider Mine, but now you can control it. And when you target, when it targets a unit, that unit has basically has 10-seconds to live before it implodes."
I'm guessing you have to manually target Widow Mines? That'll make them significantly better, because Zerglings can't clear mine fields by running across them. Day[9] hinted at the same thing during the TvZ Battle Report.
Is this true?
Because if it is true, then widow mines are just banelings clones....
By watching the VODs it looks like the mines are triggered by enemy units, you don't need to manually set their target
"The Widow Mine is like the little sister of a Spider Mine, but now you can control it. And when you target, when it targets a unit, that unit has basically has 10-seconds to live before it implodes."
I'm guessing you have to manually target Widow Mines? That'll make them significantly better, because Zerglings can't clear mine fields by running across them. Day[9] hinted at the same thing during the TvZ Battle Report.
Is this true?
Because if it is true, then widow mines are just banelings clones....
By watching the VODs it looks like the mines are triggered by enemy units, you don't need to manually set their target
I cant see who Widow Mine could ever be useful. Its basically an expensive Baneling which does more damage, must be burrowed before hes of any use and the best of all: hugs the enemy 10 seconds before there is anything like an explosion. great. And it costs 1 Supply.
Protoss and Zerg getting a lot of cool new stuff. They need it. Really. Terran? Id be happy if they keep the Battle Hellion, switch the Warhound with the Goliath and fix all the T3-Units (Thor, BCs and Ghosts). Its a shame that Terran is the only race, that will not rely on them. Thors are atm still the only AA Mech has and the problems are still the same, BCs are just not useful (like Carrier but before we see a fix of that, Blizzard will more likely remove the BCs) and Ghosts are just broken in every way.
If Blizzard could fix that, I'm happy with everything they want to change.
On June 15 2012 09:46 Jaiden wrote: I cant see who Widow Mine could ever be useful. Its basically an expensive Baneling which does more damage, must be burrowed before hes of any use and the best of all: hugs the enemy 10 seconds before there is anything like an explosion. great. And it costs 1 Supply.
Protoss and Zerg getting a lot of cool new stuff. They need it. Really. Terran? Id be happy if they keep the Battle Hellion, switch the Warhound with the Goliath and fix all the T3-Units (Thor, BCs and Ghosts). Its a shame that Terran is the only race, that will not rely on them. Thors are atm still the only AA Mech has and the problems are still the same, BCs are just not useful (like Carrier but before we see a fix of that, Blizzard will more likely remove the BCs) and Ghosts are just broken in every way.
If Blizzard could fix that, I'm happy with everything they want to change.
You guys do know Banelings cost 50(25 for the Zergling)/25 with at least a 44 build time right?
The Widow Mine is 75/25 with a 20 build time, and can be reactored.
You all have extremely small imaginations if none of you can see any applications for the Widow Mines.
On June 15 2012 09:46 Jaiden wrote: I cant see who Widow Mine could ever be useful. Its basically an expensive Baneling which does more damage, must be burrowed before hes of any use and the best of all: hugs the enemy 10 seconds before there is anything like an explosion. great. And it costs 1 Supply.
Protoss and Zerg getting a lot of cool new stuff. They need it. Really. Terran? Id be happy if they keep the Battle Hellion, switch the Warhound with the Goliath and fix all the T3-Units (Thor, BCs and Ghosts). Its a shame that Terran is the only race, that will not rely on them. Thors are atm still the only AA Mech has and the problems are still the same, BCs are just not useful (like Carrier but before we see a fix of that, Blizzard will more likely remove the BCs) and Ghosts are just broken in every way.
If Blizzard could fix that, I'm happy with everything they want to change.
You guys do know Banelings cost 50(25 for the Zergling)/25 with at least a 44 build time right?
The Widow Mine is 75/25 with a 20 build time, and can be reactored.
You all have extremely small imaginations if none of you can see any applications for the Widow Mines.
Widow mine is friendly-splash (at least they're experimenting) so you sort of have to be careful to use it. Imagine a zergling run into widow mine, got strapped, then run toward to Terran army....
On June 15 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: If they're already talking about the mine being "too powerful" i see no hope for this expansion. Terran barely gets anything in HOTS, the mine being basically the one good thing Terran does get overall.
On June 15 2012 09:46 Jaiden wrote: I cant see who Widow Mine could ever be useful. Its basically an expensive Baneling which does more damage, must be burrowed before hes of any use and the best of all: hugs the enemy 10 seconds before there is anything like an explosion. great. And it costs 1 Supply.
Protoss and Zerg getting a lot of cool new stuff. They need it. Really. Terran? Id be happy if they keep the Battle Hellion, switch the Warhound with the Goliath and fix all the T3-Units (Thor, BCs and Ghosts). Its a shame that Terran is the only race, that will not rely on them. Thors are atm still the only AA Mech has and the problems are still the same, BCs are just not useful (like Carrier but before we see a fix of that, Blizzard will more likely remove the BCs) and Ghosts are just broken in every way.
If Blizzard could fix that, I'm happy with everything they want to change.
You guys do know Banelings cost 50(25 for the Zergling)/25 with at least a 44 build time right?
The Widow Mine is 75/25 with a 20 build time, and can be reactored.
You all have extremely small imaginations if none of you can see any applications for the Widow Mines.
That doesnt apply. Its nice that its not a Techlab-unit, but you can build 4 Widow Mines (2 Mines at the same time - 20secs+20secs = 40 secs) or 4 Banelings (4x24secs [Zergling] + 20secs Morph to Bane = 44 secs) in roughly the same time. So that isnt the point. I just hate the idea of a copy-pasted unit with a few different stats that doesnt fix the core-problems of a race.
And i see applications for the Widow Mine, but i dont think that i need them. Its nice to have, but at the end where are a ton of other things that would be better. Like real mech anti-air (Thors are just bad) or fixed T3 units.
I want to see a strategy that leads to the use of Battlecruiser. Like Zealot Arcon. Or Ultralisk Banes. Or Infestor Broodlord. Instead terrans engage with mostly basic units, and if the terran is brave, we have 2 or 3 Thors, maybe a couple Ghosts or 2 Battlecruiser. It just feels, the terran technology tree ends without the right units at the end.
On June 15 2012 08:29 Existor wrote: Probably it will create road of creep between two Nydus heads, slowly, but at any distance
What would be the point of that? The point of a Nydus is instant transportation. Adding more creep mechanics is a bit... meh.
It gives you more incentive to use nydus worms, and you can tactically place them across the map to help you with creep spread. This is only one variant of the nydus worm, we have no idea what other forms the nydus worm will have. :D
Widow mine is friendly-splash (at least they're experimenting) so you sort of have to be careful to use it. Imagine a zergling run into widow mine, got strapped, then run toward to Terran army....
Imagine that everything can be scrapped and reworked, including mines.
On June 15 2012 09:46 Jaiden wrote: I cant see who Widow Mine could ever be useful. Its basically an expensive Baneling which does more damage, must be burrowed before hes of any use and the best of all: hugs the enemy 10 seconds before there is anything like an explosion. great. And it costs 1 Supply.
Protoss and Zerg getting a lot of cool new stuff. They need it. Really. Terran? Id be happy if they keep the Battle Hellion, switch the Warhound with the Goliath and fix all the T3-Units (Thor, BCs and Ghosts). Its a shame that Terran is the only race, that will not rely on them. Thors are atm still the only AA Mech has and the problems are still the same, BCs are just not useful (like Carrier but before we see a fix of that, Blizzard will more likely remove the BCs) and Ghosts are just broken in every way.
If Blizzard could fix that, I'm happy with everything they want to change.
You guys do know Banelings cost 50(25 for the Zergling)/25 with at least a 44 build time right?
The Widow Mine is 75/25 with a 20 build time, and can be reactored.
You all have extremely small imaginations if none of you can see any applications for the Widow Mines.
That doesnt apply. Its nice that its not a Techlab-unit, but you can build 4 Widow Mines (2 Mines at the same time - 20secs+20secs = 40 secs) or 4 Banelings (4x24secs [Zergling] + 20secs Morph to Bane = 44 secs) in roughly the same time. So that isnt the point. I just hate the idea of a copy-pasted unit with a few different stats that doesnt fix the core-problems of a race.
And i see applications for the Widow Mine, but i dont think that i need them. Its nice to have, but at the end where are a ton of other things that would be better. Like real mech anti-air (Thors are just bad) or fixed T3 units.
I want to see a strategy that leads to the use of Battlecruiser. Like Zealot Arcon. Or Ultralisk Banes. Or Infestor Broodlord. Instead terrans engage with mostly basic units, and if the terran is brave, we have 2 or 3 Thors, maybe a couple Ghosts or 2 Battlecruiser. It just feels, the terran technology tree ends without the right units at the end.
This I can understand and somewhat agree with. I do look forward to the Widow Mine, but it won't help our lategame.
Widow mine is friendly-splash (at least they're experimenting) so you sort of have to be careful to use it. Imagine a zergling run into widow mine, got strapped, then run toward to Terran army....
Imagine that everything can be scrapped and reworked, including mines.
That also can't happen since killing the strapped target cancels the splash effect.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote:as well as allow the A.I to take control of the other player in the replay and imitate their actions.
Holy crap, that's awesome. So, if I want to work on my defense against the Stephano 12 minute max, I just need to get a replay of Stephano doing it to someone, and the AI will copy the build? I really want to see how that pans out.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote:as well as allow the A.I to take control of the other player in the replay and imitate their actions.
Holy crap, that's awesome. So, if I want to work on my defense against the Stephano 12 minute max, I just need to get a replay of Stephano doing it to someone, and the AI will copy the build? I really want to see how that pans out.
Yes, it will try and replicate the actions of stephano in this case. Obviously it won't be 1:1 but it still has a lot of potential!
does the widow mine seriously do splash damage to it's own units? where is the logic in that? I love how collosus and banelings don't do friendly damage at all. apparently storms hurt protosses own units, but they are already so op that storming your own units does nothing.
On June 15 2012 09:46 Jaiden wrote: I cant see who Widow Mine could ever be useful. Its basically an expensive Baneling which does more damage, must be burrowed before hes of any use and the best of all: hugs the enemy 10 seconds before there is anything like an explosion. great. And it costs 1 Supply.
Protoss and Zerg getting a lot of cool new stuff. They need it. Really. Terran? Id be happy if they keep the Battle Hellion, switch the Warhound with the Goliath and fix all the T3-Units (Thor, BCs and Ghosts). Its a shame that Terran is the only race, that will not rely on them. Thors are atm still the only AA Mech has and the problems are still the same, BCs are just not useful (like Carrier but before we see a fix of that, Blizzard will more likely remove the BCs) and Ghosts are just broken in every way.
If Blizzard could fix that, I'm happy with everything they want to change.
DRG
In ZvT, I got really hurt by mines – it was like if you make mines, you win the game. I hope they fix them, or just remove them altogether.
Flash
It’s [The widow mine is] very powerful. However, it leaves me wanting more.
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
See that's the thing. Widow Mines now cost supply, and as DB was saying they want supply to be moved all over the map, so players stray away from large death balls. They would likely have to increase the cost of the hellion in that case as the widow mine hits both air and ground with splash damage.
It should be interesting to see what pros will be able to do with the unit during the beta.
What if they gave the widow mine to the Raven? I suppose that might be too many abilities on a single unit?
On June 15 2012 09:46 Jaiden wrote: I cant see who Widow Mine could ever be useful. Its basically an expensive Baneling which does more damage, must be burrowed before hes of any use and the best of all: hugs the enemy 10 seconds before there is anything like an explosion. great. And it costs 1 Supply.
Protoss and Zerg getting a lot of cool new stuff. They need it. Really. Terran? Id be happy if they keep the Battle Hellion, switch the Warhound with the Goliath and fix all the T3-Units (Thor, BCs and Ghosts). Its a shame that Terran is the only race, that will not rely on them. Thors are atm still the only AA Mech has and the problems are still the same, BCs are just not useful (like Carrier but before we see a fix of that, Blizzard will more likely remove the BCs) and Ghosts are just broken in every way.
If Blizzard could fix that, I'm happy with everything they want to change.
It’s [The widow mine is] very powerful. However, it leaves me wanting more.
You need to do less theory-crafting -_-;;
I love these people saying the widow mine will be useless and asking for "improvement" to the Thor, ghost and BC. Yet any pro that touches the widow mine says "My god, these things are amazing, like red velvet cup cakes. I must build more of them."
On June 15 2012 10:51 artosismermaid wrote: does the widow mine seriously do splash damage to it's own units? where is the logic in that? I love how collosus and banelings don't do friendly damage at all. apparently storms hurt protosses own units, but they are already so op that storming your own units does nothing.
The logic is that they want the game to be more spread out and less oriented towards death-ball DPScraft. Colossus and banelings are meant to be part of a unit composition. Widow mines are not. Stop comparing apples to oranges.
Also recognize that widow mines can attach to air units. Imagine the defense against muta-balls.
The thing is about entomb, I don't see it being that effective against, say, a Terran who goes PF, which can just bust down the entomb. I predict PF becoming the norm in bases with OC's located next to them or in the main. Does anyone know how much the shield is?
Also, do widow mines splash on friendly units? Do they affect buildings and entomb?
I can see widow mine drops being a major pain in the ass, unless there's a notification that its attached rather than, yknow, "your workers are under attack" and you just see a bunch of dead workers because the mine's gone off already. Holy shit that sounds OP already.
On June 15 2012 12:39 ticklishmusic wrote: The thing is about entomb, I don't see it being that effective against, say, a Terran who goes PF, which can just bust down the entomb. I predict PF becoming the norm in bases with OC's located next to them or in the main. Does anyone know how much the shield is?
Also, do widow mines splash on friendly units? Do they affect buildings and entomb?
I can see widow mine drops being a major pain in the ass, unless there's a notification that its attached rather than, yknow, "your workers are under attack" and you just see a bunch of dead workers because the mine's gone off already. Holy shit that sounds OP already.
Baneling drops do something very similar to workers, minus the advance notification.
On June 15 2012 06:52 Torte de Lini wrote: Why is Chris Sigaty a large part about the LAN and then when will HOTS come out. The rest of it is superb, and you probably could have gone farther if you didn't dig up a dead horse's grave when they generate the same old answers.
eh, he's a large part of bnet in general. yeah, it probably wasn't the best question choice
On June 15 2012 12:39 ticklishmusic wrote: The thing is about entomb, I don't see it being that effective against, say, a Terran who goes PF, which can just bust down the entomb. I predict PF becoming the norm in bases with OC's located next to them or in the main. Does anyone know how much the shield is?
Also, do widow mines splash on friendly units? Do they affect buildings and entomb?
I can see widow mine drops being a major pain in the ass, unless there's a notification that its attached rather than, yknow, "your workers are under attack" and you just see a bunch of dead workers because the mine's gone off already. Holy shit that sounds OP already.
Baneling drops do something very similar to workers, minus the advance notification.
Thing is, I don't know if you get a notification that says "HAI MINE ON YOUR WORKER" or something like that. The more or less guaranteed one kill is pretty nice too.
You need two banelings to connect to kill workers, and they've got to waddle a bit. I believe the splash radius for a widow mine is greater as well, plus it does 200 damage which means that its very likely a guaranteed kill on any worker within that radius.
Spider mines couldn't do this because all the workers hovered slightly, but widow mines, ouch.
On June 15 2012 10:51 artosismermaid wrote: does the widow mine seriously do splash damage to it's own units? where is the logic in that? I love how collosus and banelings don't do friendly damage at all. apparently storms hurt protosses own units, but they are already so op that storming your own units does nothing.
It makes using them challenging and exciting. For example, if you're one of the best players in the world, you can turn them against your opponent, like this:
On June 15 2012 10:51 artosismermaid wrote: does the widow mine seriously do splash damage to it's own units? where is the logic in that? I love how collosus and banelings don't do friendly damage at all. apparently storms hurt protosses own units, but they are already so op that storming your own units does nothing.
It makes using them challenging and exciting. For example, if you're one of the best players in the world, you can turn them against your opponent, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1gHydHWUSg
On June 15 2012 08:30 razy wrote: every time someone says "warhound will make mech viable against toss" something inside me dies.
Yes it will. Except that won't be mech but another goddamn mmm variation. Stop fooling yourself. Mech's core consists of stuff like tanks and mines. NOT effin warhounds or thors (like in modern TvZ), because they are no more than another beefier and more boring marauder variation.
If developers can't come up with any interesting concept than at least implement 3 core components: mines, strong tanks and solid factory anti air. Warhound and thor are anti-mech units, both doing what tanks should've in the first place: kill fucking ground army.
Blizzard loves talking about role overlap and removing iconic units because of that. U know what, I see three units from the same production facility designed to do the same thing.
How much time will it take our beloved company to realize that?
I would've shut up if those two robotic poopsters had some unique roles, like warhound being anti air and thor being added to the mech army solely to tank damage, but sadly that's not the case: these units are there only to do more "terrible, terrible damage". As if we don't have enough of those.
Thank You. My point exactly. Warhound Hellion is just MM, but without the micro -_____-.
On June 15 2012 08:30 razy wrote: every time someone says "warhound will make mech viable against toss" something inside me dies.
Yes it will. Except that won't be mech but another goddamn mmm variation. Stop fooling yourself. Mech's core consists of stuff like tanks and mines. NOT effin warhounds or thors (like in modern TvZ), because they are no more than another beefier and more boring marauder variation.
If developers can't come up with any interesting concept than at least implement 3 core components: mines, strong tanks and solid factory anti air. Warhound and thor are anti-mech units, both doing what tanks should've in the first place: kill fucking ground army.
Blizzard loves talking about role overlap and removing iconic units because of that. U know what, I see three units from the same production facility designed to do the same thing.
How much time will it take our beloved company to realize that?
I would've shut up if those two robotic poopsters had some unique roles, like warhound being anti air and thor being added to the mech army solely to tank damage, but sadly that's not the case: these units are there only to do more "terrible, terrible damage". As if we don't have enough of those.
Thank You. My point exactly. Warhound Hellion is just MM, but without the micro -_____-.
Yes, the battle hellion and warhound are just JUMBO BIO from the FACTORY! =(
What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Yeah i don't understand why half the new units seems made to counter positional play and tanks .. viper with abduct/dark swarm, ultra with charge, even the swarm host, for protoss we already have immortals/colossus/chargelots/blink stalkers that own tanks. Even in TvT we see tanks line broken by pure bio everyday, and now they want to add 1a units to make it even worse. They cannot do a game where you can a move in any defensive position and expect it to be a good game..
ps: i'm a zerg/protoss player so i really don't have any bias for terran, but the design choice made for this race for HOTS seem so terrible
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
But it seems to me the way to fix that is to add more interesting elements and not try to kill the tank as the tank is the most interesting part of that group. Fix the unit movement for the Vikings so it can be microed like the wraith rather than sit still like sky turrets. Or if these mines pan out, it ought to create more dynamic unit interactions. The combination of tanks, fast raiders, and splash damage mines made for interesting gameplay.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
IMO that boring to watch part can be solved by mapmaking. Shakuras is probably the easiest map to create a split map out there.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
tankless mech doesn't make sense at all, is like Bio-Ball all over again.
if they remove tanks, i will quit this game, seriously, tanks are the most fun units in the game
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
So the solution is to add an anti factory-1a unit or, make better maps?
The Tank has to be the main unit in mech compositions or it just doesn't feel like mech and i agree with the Vikings being the borring part of TvT. If there was better anti air from the factory, it would create more interesting dinamics of balancing tanks vs warhounds not godly against tanks with anti air.
Though we haven't seen a single warhound in action or a TvT/ TvP battle report, so maybe they are still debaiting on it's role. Let's hope for the best.
"The Widow Mine is like the little sister of a Spider Mine, but now you can control it. And when you target, when it targets a unit, that unit has basically has 10-seconds to live before it implodes."
I'm guessing you have to manually target Widow Mines? That'll make them significantly better, because Zerglings can't clear mine fields by running across them. Day[9] hinted at the same thing during the TvZ Battle Report.
Is this true?
Because if it is true, then widow mines are just banelings clones....
By watching the VODs it looks like the mines are triggered by enemy units, you don't need to manually set their target
From the battle report it looks like it comes auto-Target as default.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
So the solution is to add an anti factory-1a unit or, make better maps?
The Tank has to be the main unit in mech compositions or it just doesn't feel like mech and i agree with the Vikings being the borring part of TvT. If there was better anti air from the factory, it would create more interesting dinamics of balancing tanks vs warhounds not godly against tanks with anti air.
Though we haven't seen a single warhound in action or a TvT/ TvP battle report, so maybe they are still debaiting on it's role. Let's hope for the best.
I agree with what you and everyone else is saying. I also agree that Vikings are what make Tank wars boring. Goliaths created a much better dynamic in BW since they were grounded.
I also dislike the Viking from a personal standpoint because only half of the Viking is useful. Assault Mode Viking is just depressing to use. In fact they can probably buff Assault Mode to make a much stronger dynamic not only in TvT but also in other matches.
Far as Warhound goes, I don't really understand why they have to be a Mech buster unit. It'd be much better if those missles could just be Anti-Air missles. Warhound's movement speed (2.81) and range is good enough to be a strong general purpose unit.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
I blame the Viking for the State of TvT. In BW for vision you either (1) Floated a building (2) Built a wraith/Valk (3) Scanned.
Buildings were shot by Goliaths, and Wraiths and Valks had short range and could also be shot by Goliaths. Goliaths in turn did not provide vision and could be shot by Tanks. Thus Terran relied on scans once the Goliath count grew enough.
However in SC2 they gave the Goliath flight and vision, together with its longs range. As a result TvT is about who has more Vikings in order to obtain vision. In addition, the player that loses air control is now punished by having to scan, while the opponent with air control can mule.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
So the solution is to add an anti factory-1a unit or, make better maps?
The Tank has to be the main unit in mech compositions or it just doesn't feel like mech and i agree with the Vikings being the borring part of TvT. If there was better anti air from the factory, it would create more interesting dinamics of balancing tanks vs warhounds not godly against tanks with anti air.
Though we haven't seen a single warhound in action or a TvT/ TvP battle report, so maybe they are still debaiting on it's role. Let's hope for the best.
I agree with what you and everyone else is saying. I also agree that Vikings are what make Tank wars boring. Goliaths created a much better dynamic in BW since they were grounded.
I also dislike the Viking from a personal standpoint because only half of the Viking is useful. Assault Mode Viking is just depressing to use. In fact they can probably buff Assault Mode to make a much stronger dynamic not only in TvT but also in other matches.
Far as Warhound goes, I don't really understand why they have to be a Mech buster unit. It'd be much better if those missles could just be Anti-Air missles. Warhound's movement speed (2.81) and range is good enough to be a strong general purpose unit.
If Blizzard really wanted a Mech Buster, they should Buff the HSM Range. But, even then we already have Nukes. The issue is that nobody uses Nukes because we can break tank lines with Marines.
I don't remember the last Stalemate I've ever had in TvT. Tanks lines are just so easy to break.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
TvT is and always has been (including BW) the most interesting mirror to watch.
Would be awesome to get a replay of a top level pro performing a common all-in and then be able to practice against it time after time. Then you know it was nearly perfectly executed all-in. If you can learn to defend an all-in from a high level pro then the scrubs at diamond level wouldn't even be a match! :D
On June 15 2012 08:30 razy wrote: every time someone says "warhound will make mech viable against toss" something inside me dies.
Yes it will. Except that won't be mech but another goddamn mmm variation. Stop fooling yourself. Mech's core consists of stuff like tanks and mines. NOT effin warhounds or thors (like in modern TvZ), because they are no more than another beefier and more boring marauder variation.
If developers can't come up with any interesting concept than at least implement 3 core components: mines, strong tanks and solid factory anti air. Warhound and thor are anti-mech units, both doing what tanks should've in the first place: kill fucking ground army.
Blizzard loves talking about role overlap and removing iconic units because of that. U know what, I see three units from the same production facility designed to do the same thing.
How much time will it take our beloved company to realize that?
I would've shut up if those two robotic poopsters had some unique roles, like warhound being anti air and thor being added to the mech army solely to tank damage, but sadly that's not the case: these units are there only to do more "terrible, terrible damage". As if we don't have enough of those.
Blizzard is indeed making mech viable by making bio come out of the factory. I think they're just too hung up on making it "their game" so won't make it more like BW despite everyone asking for it. Strong tanks make ling/bane too weak but then if they'd just reduce the clumping a bit all that goes away and everyones happy.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
I don't like tanks... I like fast paced, intense micro play and multipronged action. Tanks don't really serve this style well. I'll use them because I have to, not because I like to. But that's just me.
Generally, I can enjoy watching and playing positional play, but a lot of people confuses "positional chess-like battle" with the boring snooze fest they actually play, because of the sense of security it procures. Tank play for low level players (up to European pro level I would even say, just look at foreigner TvT) follows the same mentality as the common "no rush 20 minutes" you always see from lower caliber players. People don't like to attack because of the risk it implies, so they hide themselves behind "established beautiful siege lines" and stay "safe".
You know what, establishing a siege line is what of the most weak plays you can do in a game of Starcraft, UNLESS it's to contain the guy in his base or split the map in more than a half for you. It doesn't accomplish anything otherwise, and the main goal for a good player when faced with a siege line should be "how can I get rid of this shit?" or "how can I get around it and abuse the fuck out of my opponent?", not "I have to establish my own beautiful siege line nao so that we can have a stare contest, and then compare our viking counts and see who has the bigger!". I'm actually glad that you can't defend very well a position in SC2 with a minimal amount of tanks as it is (because let's face it, they're kind of weak, I will admit ;D), it forces lower end people out of this comfortable sense of security which has no place in a game like Starcraft. I like Blizzard's stance on the subject (tank vs tank can become stale, it's true).
At least you tried to speak of siege in an offensive way, which is good, but it's not at all the general feel about tanks I fear. People see them as defensive units, which is wrong. They don't defend shit, aside from some 2 base all ins.
Now, that aside, I don't like at all where HotS is going about tanks. As everyone pointed out, about every new unit is a counter to siege tanks, they feel ridiculously weak from a theoritical point of view. High level Terran users (so Korean level obviously) always provide exciting games in TvT, and I wouldn't like that to go away completely.
Edit: Let's be clear here, I'm not saying I like HotS mech, because as others have said, Warhound and battle hellions don't feel very mech-ish, I'm essentially expressing that I don't like mech at all. Which, coincidentally enough, might make me appreciate HotS mech new units, so yay~~ ;D Edit2: And I also think TvT is one of the most exciting matchups to watch...just played by good players.
On June 15 2012 08:30 razy wrote: every time someone says "warhound will make mech viable against toss" something inside me dies.
Yes it will. Except that won't be mech but another goddamn mmm variation. Stop fooling yourself. Mech's core consists of stuff like tanks and mines. NOT effin warhounds or thors (like in modern TvZ), because they are no more than another beefier and more boring marauder variation.
If developers can't come up with any interesting concept than at least implement 3 core components: mines, strong tanks and solid factory anti air. Warhound and thor are anti-mech units, both doing what tanks should've in the first place: kill fucking ground army.
Blizzard loves talking about role overlap and removing iconic units because of that. U know what, I see three units from the same production facility designed to do the same thing.
How much time will it take our beloved company to realize that?
I would've shut up if those two robotic poopsters had some unique roles, like warhound being anti air and thor being added to the mech army solely to tank damage, but sadly that's not the case: these units are there only to do more "terrible, terrible damage". As if we don't have enough of those.
Blizzard is indeed making mech viable by making bio come out of the factory. I think they're just too hung up on making it "their game" so won't make it more like BW despite everyone asking for it. Strong tanks make ling/bane too weak but then if they'd just reduce the clumping a bit all that goes away and everyones happy.
Why? They already one shot grups of banes and the MU is fine, or at least not Terran favorite. On the other side, marauders, zealots, colossus, achons, immortals, etc are so damn strong against tanks it's sad.
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions.
When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks.
Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking.
I know something like that would be boring to watch.
PF's and SensorTowers are bad ideas.
Without PF Terran could just SimCity like Toss does. Unfortunately we don't have Cannons and Tanks are 3 food so it hurts to put a Tanks at each base.
And Sensor Towers have yet to be fully exploited(Most likely because they are a lategame investment and Terran usually don't reach that point). But, they pretty much shut down any form of flanking or drop.
On June 15 2012 09:46 aRyuujin wrote: I don't like how they want us to have tankless mech. The whole point of Mech was being able to build tanks that raped everything ever :O
The new Mech looks like playing MM, but more boring.
I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't realize what we want are viable Tanks vs. Protoss.
On June 15 2012 09:46 aRyuujin wrote: I don't like how they want us to have tankless mech. The whole point of Mech was being able to build tanks that raped everything ever :O
The new Mech looks like playing MM, but more boring.
I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't realize what we want are viable Tanks vs. Protoss.
Dude, I see you whine all over the place about how bad Blizzard design is.
How about we wait until beta before we jump into conclusions?
Even Torchlight 2 has 30 people working on it. Now granted the 70 people doesn't include cinematics team, production team, localization team, battle.net maintenance team, etc. etc.
The unit which is hurting Mech the most is the warhound. Sure, it'll be useful, but it'll be boring as fuck. I feel like people are also doing bio play a huge disservice when they describe Blizzard making mech play like Bio. Bio is interesting, it requires huge amounts of micro, gains a lot from multitasking etc.
Warhound based mech (from what I've seen, read and heard, and literally nothing I've seen has disagreed with this) will be far worse than bio, it'll be blog based smush, rather than tank based mech's careful positioning and strategic depth, or Bio's micro and multitasking...
TvZ looks awesome in HotS, Mech will be improved with the Widow Mine, it will actually be more useful than the spider mine would be because it can hit air. TvT it remains to be seen, I have no idea what will happen to the matchup. TvP looks like the Warhound Battlehellion will just crush everything, which looks terrible.... And I'm a huge Blizzard defender. The warhound sucks.
Even Torchlight 2 has 30 people working on it. Now granted the 70 people doesn't include cinematics team, production team, localization team, battle.net maintenance team, etc. etc.
I don't know what those guys are doing. You must've found extreme examples. Most teams as noted above are much smaller. Typical game development studio has around 50 people employed. This is not counting any stuff that has to be done outside the game. And the more people you have the more problems with logistics, I think blizzard wants to have less people.
Good interviews, especially liked the DB one. I like their design philosophy mostly, but I think they're trying TOO much to give the players options. The playerbase should find options, with the way Blizzard is doing it it's like they want us to play the game the way they'd like it to be played.
Even Torchlight 2 has 30 people working on it. Now granted the 70 people doesn't include cinematics team, production team, localization team, battle.net maintenance team, etc. etc.
But the HotS team doesn't have to create the engine, the interface, the Starcraft lore, etc... In the end, they're just adding slight gameplay modifications and a dozen or so single player missions. Battle.net changes could even be handled by the main SC2 team for all we know.
On June 15 2012 23:05 SarcasmMonster wrote: It seems like is most vocally opposed about the upcoming changes whereas the other races seem quite content with their HOTS changes.
In the interviews, it seems like the are still going through many internal changes so that's promising.
Well as it stands, battle hellions seem like super firebats and warhounds are super marauders. Go factory for super bio! =P
On June 15 2012 09:46 aRyuujin wrote: I don't like how they want us to have tankless mech. The whole point of Mech was being able to build tanks that raped everything ever :O
The new Mech looks like playing MM, but more boring.
I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't realize what we want are viable Tanks vs. Protoss.
Dude, I see you whine all over the place about how bad Blizzard design is.
How about we wait until beta before we jump into conclusions?
If were not verbal about our concern, Blizzard won't realize that there's an issue. I'm not trying to be dick about it, but I feel that its our responsibility to voice our concerns.
StarCraft II's next expansion doesn't have an official release date yet, but its creators say it's almost crossed the finish line.
Speaking to lead designer Dustin Browder in a phone interview this afternoon, I asked how close the team was to completing the game.
"We are 99% done," he told me, "but that last 1%'s a bitch."
The missions are all playable and the units are all in place, Browder said. "There's something in for everything—it's whether we like it or not that's an open question. It's the tuning and polish that really takes us a long time, and that's where we get into the unknowns.
"Like we could do a play-through next week that we're like, 'Wow this is really great.' Or we could do a play-through and we still have 250 items we wanna fix. You know, historically speaking we're doing pretty well. We're getting there. But I don't know for sure yet when we'll be done."
In other words, they're still on Blizzard Time. But at least they're almost done.
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
right . he counters with marines and smash the GG button
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
right . he counters with marines and smash the GG button
How do I counter a unit that I've never played against yet?! I feel for you man...
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
right . he counters with marines and smash the GG button
How do I counter a unit that I've never played against yet?! I feel for you man...
is called theorycraft . and the concept is there , warhound counter's mechanical , battlehelion counter's zealot . what else does toss have ? stargate ? marine counter stargate and since you need a drain for all the minerals ul have since ul be using all gas on factory army the only awnser that pops in my mind is marines . Can you find me a way to beat this composition THEORYCRAFTING OBVIOUSLY ? Thanks .
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
right . he counters with marines and smash the GG button
How do I counter a unit that I've never played against yet?! I feel for you man...
is called theorycraft . and the concept is there , warhound counter's mechanical , battlehelion counter's zealot . what else does toss have ? stargate ? marine counter stargate and since you need a drain for all the minerals ul have since ul be using all gas on factory army the only awnser that pops in my mind is marines . Can you find me a way to beat this composition THEORYCRAFTING OBVIOUSLY ? Thanks .
This theorycrafting is bad because you're thinking in absolutes and expect the Terran army to have everything. If we're going Mech, we will not have 3/3 Combat Shield Stim Marines to counter Stargate tech. We would have to use a combination of Vikings and Thors.
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
right . he counters with marines and smash the GG button
How do I counter a unit that I've never played against yet?! I feel for you man...
is called theorycraft . and the concept is there , warhound counter's mechanical , battlehelion counter's zealot . what else does toss have ? stargate ? marine counter stargate and since you need a drain for all the minerals ul have since ul be using all gas on factory army the only awnser that pops in my mind is marines . Can you find me a way to beat this composition THEORYCRAFTING OBVIOUSLY ? Thanks .
Dude, you are right. Be sure to let Blizzard know on the first day the HoTS beta comes out, so they'll write an article about how you were the first person to bring the broken matchup to their attention. And let me know the next time you see a terran go mech with enough barracks to "dump minerals" into. (MKP not withstanding)
widow mines on air units is a bit over the top imo especially when you see mutalisk play disapear vs terran :S IMO make is friendly fire and only ground.
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
right . he counters with marines and smash the GG button
How do I counter a unit that I've never played against yet?! I feel for you man...
is called theorycraft . and the concept is there , warhound counter's mechanical , battlehelion counter's zealot . what else does toss have ? stargate ? marine counter stargate and since you need a drain for all the minerals ul have since ul be using all gas on factory army the only awnser that pops in my mind is marines . Can you find me a way to beat this composition THEORYCRAFTING OBVIOUSLY ? Thanks .
What do you think hellions cost? It's 100 minerals dude, you won't have thousands of spare minerals for marines.
widow mines on air units is a bit over the top imo especially when you see mutalisk play disapear vs terran :S IMO make is friendly fire and only ground.
If the widow mine friendly fires it's going to be useless. Blink stalkers, burrowed roaches (not related to my next point), charge lots, it's the same reason tanks are not as good as they used to be as so much stuff is so good at closing the distance to them.
On June 16 2012 07:05 xsnac wrote: whats the point playing TVP anymore if warhound counters mechanical , and battle helion counts zealots ? how you deal with it ? i cant find an awnser
Probably a combination of Stargate tech and Gateway units.
right . he counters with marines and smash the GG button
How do I counter a unit that I've never played against yet?! I feel for you man...
is called theorycraft . and the concept is there , warhound counter's mechanical , battlehelion counter's zealot . what else does toss have ? stargate ? marine counter stargate and since you need a drain for all the minerals ul have since ul be using all gas on factory army the only awnser that pops in my mind is marines . Can you find me a way to beat this composition THEORYCRAFTING OBVIOUSLY ? Thanks .
Then harass and destroy your opponent's economy. You have the oracle, Warp Prism, Mass Recall on a nexus, 25 energy a second regen for any unit/building, etc. Protoss players are going to have to start playing the same way Zerg and Terran have had to play against Protoss in WoL, which seems perfectly fine to me.
It's likely going to be like TvP where you have to harass your opponent and do damage to their economy, or ZvP where you have to prevent the protoss from taking a third.
Honestly who knows? We haven't played the game, we don't know how drastic the game will change. Outright saying " Oh this unit counters this means you auto lose" Is a silly thing to say for something you have never experimented with.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: This could allow you to have someone perform a rush, and then allow the A.I to play it out again from a replay so you can practice against defending the rush. Sounds very cool and exciting! Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential.
A.I. can micro 100x better. It would probably be difficult to do in certain terrain situations, but can still be done, and has been done on open terrain.
On June 16 2012 10:11 SnipedSoul wrote: Overall, I'm pleased with how HoTS is shaping up. Interesting concepts that should be a lot of fun once they are balanced properly.
Can't wait to turtle up to 200/200 unkillable deathball and show Toss what it feels like!
That was Brood War for like 8 years lol :D Nothing new for most of us toss.
On June 16 2012 07:41 Arush wrote: widow mines on air units is a bit over the top imo especially when you see mutalisk play disapear vs terran :S IMO make is friendly fire and only ground.
We'll see. I mean if there are three of five mines around the mineral line, three or five mutas catch those mines, you send those mutas away, continue with the rest and let the terran make more mines, investing money and factory time. When the terran wants to have mines everywhere mutas could hit, he will need quite a lot of them which detracts from his offensive possibilities. Plus, you can let mine-infested mutas explode above terran units (workers), assuming they do friendly fire. Me and my mutas aren't really scared yet. ^^
Edit: Sorry, I overread the friendly fire part. So they don't do ff? I thought they would? Do we know?
: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. So we're going to see a little bit there, but probably not too much.
Holy shit, that could change a lot for zerg, spinerushing, making building expansions for the opponent really though
On June 16 2012 18:31 Probe1 wrote: Whatever happened to that Terran thresher or crusher or whatever thing that was an AOE denial unit. lol.
The shredder was scrapped because testers found that it was stupidly OP because you could just drop a couple in your opponent's base and "shred" all of his workers.
In my opinion the Mothership should keep the cloaking ability instead of giving it to the Oracle. It will be very silly to see a tiny unit like the Oracle cloaking an army of Colossus. Can you imagine an Oracle cloaking a Mothership??
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
Keep in mind Spider Mines never attacked air, nor had a detonation time of 10 seconds.
I don't really like the idea of giving it to the Reaper because it doesn't go well with Mech, and I definitely don't like the idea of making the Hellion a Wannabe Vulture. If any unit should have this as an ability, it should be a new unit that regenerates it's stock overtime.
Also you didn't have any control on the mines. You just deployed them with your vultures the AI did all the rest. The widow mines can be deployed exactly where you want and you probably can redeploy them in other locations.
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
Keep in mind Spider Mines never attacked air, nor had a detonation time of 10 seconds.
I don't really like the idea of giving it to the Reaper because it doesn't go well with Mech, and I definitely don't like the idea of making the Hellion a Wannabe Vulture. If any unit should have this as an ability, it should be a new unit that regenerates it's stock overtime.
Also you didn't have any control on the mines. You just deployed them with your vultures the AI did all the rest. The widow mines can be deployed exactly where you want and you probably can redeploy them in other locations.
The thing is, you had so many vultures, you didn't really need to redeploy. You could just shoot your own mines, lay more mines elsewhere.
And AI controlling the mine was not actually much of a problem. It gave Protoss enough trouble defusing mines without observers.
sigh, these ppl dont seem to understand so much freaking obvious stuff: ..........Widow Mines .................yes, it has been repeatedly stated that they do ff, but only on the plane of the unit they attach to (if mined muta goes over workers and mine goes off, workers ok) ................if they hit ANY ONE UNIT EXCEPTING A FEW THAT YOU CAN JUST NOT TARGET, EVEN IF THEY DONT SPLASH ANYTHING, THEY ARE COST-EFFECTIVE (notice, this makes them utterly useless for worker harass) ...............they are not a copy paste of the baneling, u moron, they are a vaguely related unit that has an utterly different design/stats/mechanics/uses ...............the point of them is that they weaken big deathballs and pushes because either you go out of your way to bring both detection AND a 7-RANGE UNIT with you and carefully tiptoe forward sniping all the mines (and that takes a ton of time and investment for that push, giving the terran a TON of time to prepare for the push) or you go ahead and get mined and separate out the mined units, in all cases except marines/lings (which, again, you can avoid targeting by turning off autocast on the targeting ability) the mines trade favorably and also take up the attention of the pushing player
DB and others have repeatedly stated that asymmetrical design is making it so all races have ways to solve a problem but those ways are different for each race with some parallels, so saying that they are "breaking the asymmetrical balance" when they "even the playing field in some way" by, say, giving Zerg Overseers at evo (and I have found no citations for that anywhere..., only for ovie creep spread being there) is missing the point, that actually would differentiate the races more because zerg would get their mobile/flying detection very early on whereas protoss mobile detection has a moderately high tech requirement and terran mobile flying detection has a very high tech requirement, previously both zerg and protoss have a moderately high tech requirement.
One question about all the tank whining: Why in the world don't they move tank damage back up to 60 or 70 in HotS? RIght now they are not that impressive against almost all units and HotS is very likely to give each race several strong counters to them, wouldn't it be helpful if blizz wants to improve mech to buff tank damage so all these tank counters dont drive it out of the game completely?
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
Keep in mind Spider Mines never attacked air, nor had a detonation time of 10 seconds.
I don't really like the idea of giving it to the Reaper because it doesn't go well with Mech, and I definitely don't like the idea of making the Hellion a Wannabe Vulture. If any unit should have this as an ability, it should be a new unit that regenerates it's stock overtime.
I like widow mines, first thing I thought was how awesome it will be not only for map control, but static d. Imagine if one goes off on a mutaball harassing your base, and will also be good to plant just one at your expos and main in tvp just to take care of oracles.
I just wonder why giving protoss stargate even more "specialist" will make them more of an option.
So tempest isn't going to be a fighting unit, but instead more of a unit, that forces the opponent to attack in stand-offs. So oracle does some harrass, that I'm still not sure, if it really pays off compared to 8 marines stimming into your probeline. So void ray is somewhat obsolete then, since we have oracle? And phoenix is reduced to situational anti-muta duties, because if harrass of the oracle isn't better, they can scrap that unit.
I, as a mainly esport spectator, can really relate to Browers words, when he said: I want races to have different options, not just one way you are forced to go. I welcome the new terran units, as they give these options. The same is being done to zerg (new hydras/mutas/roaches will be a choice, viper/infestor also). But protoss will (perhaps even more) be confined into build a death ball, that will always need the colossus, since there is no other high-dmg unit available. Without colossus or real expert HT use, you can not win. This is basically the situation we are in now. The new units will change nothing in terms of protoss fighting force, which is disappointing.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
This is actually not true at all. Modern AI is disgustingly good at micro. Where it fails is in strategic depth to direct its macro.
Look up, for example, the Berkeley Overmind. Muta micro that makes Jaedong look like a scrub. But that's ALL it does (plus some solid overlord positioning AI), plus expand, and build sunken colonies.
On June 17 2012 20:56 testthewest wrote: Without colossus or real expert HT use, you can not win. This is basically the situation we are in now. The new units will change nothing in terms of protoss fighting force, which is disappointing.
Very correct - I had high hopes for the tempest to bring back a true skytoss option. Man would that have been awsome. But as it is, it seems like it's more of a unit to break, say, zergs with max broodlord/infestor.
Protoss seems to be really limited even in theory. Before people come and claim "wait and see" - well, wait for what? That miraculously the oracle gets awsome dps? Each and everything protoss gets is "cute". But to do damage we will still rely heavily on the colossus which just sucks immensely.
Goes into detail about the reasoning behind no lan, as well as some features the new resume from replay feature has in store, as well as talks as to when to expect to see the HotS beta. Apparently if I heard correctly, you can resume the game 10 seconds before a disconnect or crash, as well as allow the A.I to take control of the other player in the replay and imitate their actions.
This could allow you to have someone perform a rush, and then allow the A.I to play it out again from a replay so you can practice against defending the rush. Sounds very cool and exciting! Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
I think bio will still be very viable, especially in combination with spider mines. None of the new protoss units are actually good vs MMMGV I think, colossus will be required to take mines out without losing units yourself.
Plus the chargelot/archon remax can't deal with mines other than sacrificing units, wich takes alot of micro to pull off in the middle of the battle when you want to focus on splitting HT, getting good storms off, warping in new units etc. If one mine gets a good hit you're probably going to lose the battle.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
This is actually not true at all. Modern AI is disgustingly good at micro. Where it fails is in strategic depth to direct its macro.
Look up, for example, the Berkeley Overmind. Muta micro that makes Jaedong look like a scrub. But that's ALL it does (plus some solid overlord positioning AI), plus expand, and build sunken colonies.
I think that it could be programmed to be significantly better though. Maybe people are lazy, maybe they don't know how, but the technology is there. For instance scouting and being able to guess from that what the opponent is doing, giving each alternative a chance (Say DT rush 50% Blink stalkers 35% chargelots 13% citadel fake into something else 2%) upon scouting citadel, and then making it figure out the best possible response to that, etc.
I really think that it'd be possible to program a good AI but it'd be very difficult and it'd require the programmer to have extensive knowledge about pro level play as well
Ya first you hear excuses for the $$thing@lan then you get trash talk about a feature that the community "made" and now they are talking like they´ve invented that..(this is one thing that really piss me off btw e: still better to implent it then hunt it) it´s all about selling fridges to eskimos
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
This is actually not true at all. Modern AI is disgustingly good at micro. Where it fails is in strategic depth to direct its macro.
Look up, for example, the Berkeley Overmind. Muta micro that makes Jaedong look like a scrub. But that's ALL it does (plus some solid overlord positioning AI), plus expand, and build sunken colonies.
I think that it could be programmed to be significantly better though. Maybe people are lazy, maybe they don't know how, but the technology is there. For instance scouting and being able to guess from that what the opponent is doing, giving each alternative a chance (Say DT rush 50% Blink stalkers 35% chargelots 13% citadel fake into something else 2%) upon scouting citadel, and then making it figure out the best possible response to that, etc.
I really think that it'd be possible to program a good AI but it'd be very difficult and it'd require the programmer to have extensive knowledge about pro level play as well
There's definitely room for improvement, but it's also a very computationally difficult problem. Also, the Berkeley Overmind was trained against a former pro player. You don't want to program that kind of knowledge in - Finite State Machine based AIs are quite bad or horribly complex and buggy (think original Starcraft levels of oh-exploitable AI). Evolutionary algorithms and actual game play are the way to train the AI with game knowledge. That way it can evolve against the meta-game (or whatever version of a metagame it is exposed to). The micro is the part that can be programmed in.
I really liked the Chris Sigaty interview, although I can't fully understand Blizzard's decisions I'm glad that they really have been listening to the community.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
This is actually not true at all. Modern AI is disgustingly good at micro. Where it fails is in strategic depth to direct its macro.
Look up, for example, the Berkeley Overmind. Muta micro that makes Jaedong look like a scrub. But that's ALL it does (plus some solid overlord positioning AI), plus expand, and build sunken colonies.
I think that it could be programmed to be significantly better though. Maybe people are lazy, maybe they don't know how, but the technology is there. For instance scouting and being able to guess from that what the opponent is doing, giving each alternative a chance (Say DT rush 50% Blink stalkers 35% chargelots 13% citadel fake into something else 2%) upon scouting citadel, and then making it figure out the best possible response to that, etc.
I really think that it'd be possible to program a good AI but it'd be very difficult and it'd require the programmer to have extensive knowledge about pro level play as well
There's definitely room for improvement, but it's also a very computationally difficult problem. Also, the Berkeley Overmind was trained against a former pro player. You don't want to program that kind of knowledge in - Finite State Machine based AIs are quite bad or horribly complex and buggy (think original Starcraft levels of oh-exploitable AI). Evolutionary algorithms and actual game play are the way to train the AI with game knowledge. That way it can evolve against the meta-game (or whatever version of a metagame it is exposed to). The micro is the part that can be programmed in.
It's funny, I've just been thinking about AI... + Show Spoiler +
I took 2 months off SC2 to focus on getting my grades up. Started playing while on vacation/visiting family and don't have the hardware/network to play seriously so all I can do is play vs single player AI.
For all the work Blizz has done regarding balancing, design and single player missions they've really forgotten about PvE. The AI could be so much better (GTAI comes to mind) but instead of the AI being updated with the ladder/pro metagame or doing any sort of expanding or micro (with apm caps for different difficulty) all we have is t1-2 pushes and mineral cheating.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
This is actually not true at all. Modern AI is disgustingly good at micro. Where it fails is in strategic depth to direct its macro.
Look up, for example, the Berkeley Overmind. Muta micro that makes Jaedong look like a scrub. But that's ALL it does (plus some solid overlord positioning AI), plus expand, and build sunken colonies.
I'm just repeating what Chris Sigaty himself said. I think he knows better than anyone else.
On June 16 2012 07:41 Arush wrote: widow mines on air units is a bit over the top imo especially when you see mutalisk play disapear vs terran :S IMO make is friendly fire and only ground.
Funnily enough, I can see Mutas becoming MORE popular with the advent of the widow mine. More widow mines means fewer/later Thors, and a good zerg should be able to mitigate widow mine splash to kill only a single muta. Now, if widow mine splash effects allied units... Muta harass would become the GO TO strat vs mech Terran.
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
Keep in mind Spider Mines never attacked air, nor had a detonation time of 10 seconds.
I don't really like the idea of giving it to the Reaper because it doesn't go well with Mech, and I definitely don't like the idea of making the Hellion a Wannabe Vulture. If any unit should have this as an ability, it should be a new unit that regenerates it's stock overtime.
I had the neat idea of giving the ability to the Viking while it is in assault/landed mode. It would vary the metagame a lot and unlock an earlier tech switch timing for a meching Terran. Think of the possibilities.
I hope they do something with the Reaper cause with taking building damage and speed away and also nerfing their damage overall for combat drugs , -5 seconds buildtime and 10 HP will make Reapers completely useless even worse than they are now.
They probably should give them combat drugs passively from the start and leave speed and the current damage in. Its not like Reapers will actually kill something noticeable anyway . The building damage thats debateable i guess even though in return they should get an overall buff in damage against anything NOT a nerf .
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: This could allow you to have someone perform a rush, and then allow the A.I to play it out again from a replay so you can practice against defending the rush. Sounds very cool and exciting! Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
Sorry to rain on your parade here bro but the A.I. is very well capable of making MKP's micro look like bronze league
David Kim goes over the reasoning behind the design decisions for the new units for heart of the swarm. He also discusses how Terran is being changed, so they can sit back and macro a powerful army via Mech, like how Zerg and Protoss players currently are in WoL. David also discusses how Global Rank and ladder will play out in HotS
There is no global rank and ladder. So cruel to get my hopes up, and then to read the interview which is about being able to play on other regions, and nothing to do with a global rank.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: This could allow you to have someone perform a rush, and then allow the A.I to play it out again from a replay so you can practice against defending the rush. Sounds very cool and exciting! Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
Sorry to rain on your parade here bro but the A.I. is very well capable of making MKP's micro look like bronze league
Again, I'm not saying that the A.I can't micro well. What I am saying and what Chris Sigaty said in the interview, is that making the A.I Imitate MKP's micro 1:1 will be difficult. Of course playing against A.I with better marine micro than MKP will allow you to practice your baneling and infestor micro very well, but it's unrealistic setting that you will find in an average ladder game.
However, there are plenty of great and smart people in the Starcraft Community, and anything is possible.
In my opinion, this tool will really help with the metagame, I can see myself spending hours practicing against shit I lose to all the time on ladder :D
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
This is actually not true at all. Modern AI is disgustingly good at micro. Where it fails is in strategic depth to direct its macro.
Look up, for example, the Berkeley Overmind. Muta micro that makes Jaedong look like a scrub. But that's ALL it does (plus some solid overlord positioning AI), plus expand, and build sunken colonies.
I think that it could be programmed to be significantly better though. Maybe people are lazy, maybe they don't know how, but the technology is there. For instance scouting and being able to guess from that what the opponent is doing, giving each alternative a chance (Say DT rush 50% Blink stalkers 35% chargelots 13% citadel fake into something else 2%) upon scouting citadel, and then making it figure out the best possible response to that, etc.
I really think that it'd be possible to program a good AI but it'd be very difficult and it'd require the programmer to have extensive knowledge about pro level play as well
That is a slippery slope my friend. Yes you can work on the AI so it does better strategic options, however if you do that + machine micro reflexes 9001 apm you can end up with an AI that is actualy better then the players themselves thus opening a window for other problems. Let´s not forget that the game is not that complex, you can, with enough time, just "teach" any and all builds, army compostions,etc on a certain map, and the AI will always play flawlessly.
Global play =\= Global ladder. Understand? Launch Diablo 3 and see what is Global play function.
You can simply change your server and play everywhere you want, but you will have separate statistics, like in Diablo 3 - separate auction and separate heroes with separate single progress
Global play =\= Global ladder. Understand? Launch Diablo 3 and see what is Global play function.
You can simply change your server and play everywhere you want, but you will have separate statistics, like in Diablo 3 - separate auction and separate heroes with separate single progress
Yes, global play and global ladder are different. So the description in the OP should have mentioned global play, because that's what's happening. A (region/server-wide) global ladder sadly isn't coming, nor was it discussed, so it should not have been deceptively placed in the description of the interview.
Global play =\= Global ladder. Understand? Launch Diablo 3 and see what is Global play function.
You can simply change your server and play everywhere you want, but you will have separate statistics, like in Diablo 3 - separate auction and separate heroes with separate single progress
Why you need global ladder? Who need it? You're best in your region and thats enought, isn't it?
If you want to be best in Korea, then switch region in game settings and go to korean ladder! What the problem?
I'm confused. I thought Global Play (which is what we are getting) was what you wanted from your original post. It seemed like you had an issue with Global Ladder.
I guarantee you that the Lurker will retun as evidenced by the lack of reveal for the Zerg, despite HoTS having their own story. Ill bet anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I saw that Blizzard said they wanted a unit that could break siege lines from the ground and give zerg some 'map control' capabilities. Sounds good, but what happens when this unit is in it's 'siege' mode and terran decides to drop marauders on them with a scan? the DPS of marauders is insane compared to what I see in the DPS / unit release of the swarm host. I just have a vision in my head of 3-4 marauders derping 2-3 swarm hosts in 5 seconds flat.
Also - the protoss base raider unit. I just can not see how protoss will have the APM time free to bother with it's 'base raider' abilities... seems completely stupid to me.
Also, saw a video somewhere of someone at anaheim using the 'tempest' unit. It has absolutely insane range, and he did some kind of 1 base tempest rush, sieging the zerg natural and there seemed like zerg could do nothing about it.
On June 18 2012 09:13 malaan wrote: So about the swarm host....
I saw that Blizzard said they wanted a unit that could break siege lines from the ground and give zerg some 'map control' capabilities. Sounds good, but what happens when this unit is in it's 'siege' mode and terran decides to drop marauders on them with a scan? the DPS of marauders is insane compared to what I see in the DPS / unit release of the swarm host. I just have a vision in my head of 3-4 marauders derping 2-3 swarm hosts in 5 seconds flat.
Also - the protoss base raider unit. I just can not see how protoss will have the APM time free to bother with it's 'base raider' abilities... seems completely stupid to me.
yeah, also considering that enough dps on the part of p/t makes swarm host useless :/
On June 18 2012 09:13 malaan wrote: So about the swarm host....
I saw that Blizzard said they wanted a unit that could break siege lines from the ground and give zerg some 'map control' capabilities. Sounds good, but what happens when this unit is in it's 'siege' mode and terran decides to drop marauders on them with a scan? the DPS of marauders is insane compared to what I see in the DPS / unit release of the swarm host. I just have a vision in my head of 3-4 marauders derping 2-3 swarm hosts in 5 seconds flat.
Also - the protoss base raider unit. I just can not see how protoss will have the APM time free to bother with it's 'base raider' abilities... seems completely stupid to me.
Swarm hosts will die to Marauders just as fast as Siege tanks will. At least the Locusts can meat shield if the Marauders approach by ground, and attack Medivacs if they approach by air.
On June 18 2012 09:13 malaan wrote: So about the swarm host....
I saw that Blizzard said they wanted a unit that could break siege lines from the ground and give zerg some 'map control' capabilities. Sounds good, but what happens when this unit is in it's 'siege' mode and terran decides to drop marauders on them with a scan? the DPS of marauders is insane compared to what I see in the DPS / unit release of the swarm host. I just have a vision in my head of 3-4 marauders derping 2-3 swarm hosts in 5 seconds flat.
Also - the protoss base raider unit. I just can not see how protoss will have the APM time free to bother with it's 'base raider' abilities... seems completely stupid to me.
Swarm hosts will die to Marauders just as fast as Siege tanks will. At least the Locusts can meat shield if the Marauders approach by ground, and attack Medivacs if they approach by air.
The point was how slowly they spawn compared to how quickly stimmed marauders can fire. Also, zerg AA on ground units in it's current form sucks (say they use queen, slow as shit off creep. Say they use hydra, too expensive to use hydra / swarm host and in theory this composition would be useless anyway.) Don't forget zerg doesn't have marines to protect siege tanks ;-)
The whole weakness of broodlords against terran is the fact that they are slow - and very easily picked off by vikings. Imagine how hard it is going to be to protect your swarm hosts from siege tanks and scans, you cant exactly run infestors into siege lines to fungal them can you?
It kind of gives me a 'rock paper scissors' worry for TvZ right now but we will see. I think it was IdrA who was saying how all the units just feel stupidly overpowered and completely counter each other in every matchup, so we will have to see what happens in beta. I really don't know how I feel about HOTS atm...
On June 18 2012 09:13 malaan wrote: So about the swarm host....
I saw that Blizzard said they wanted a unit that could break siege lines from the ground and give zerg some 'map control' capabilities. Sounds good, but what happens when this unit is in it's 'siege' mode and terran decides to drop marauders on them with a scan? the DPS of marauders is insane compared to what I see in the DPS / unit release of the swarm host. I just have a vision in my head of 3-4 marauders derping 2-3 swarm hosts in 5 seconds flat.
Also - the protoss base raider unit. I just can not see how protoss will have the APM time free to bother with it's 'base raider' abilities... seems completely stupid to me.
Swarm hosts will die to Marauders just as fast as Siege tanks will. At least the Locusts can meat shield if the Marauders approach by ground, and attack Medivacs if they approach by air.
The point was how slowly they spawn compared to how quickly stimmed marauders can fire. Also, zerg AA on ground units in it's current form sucks (say they use queen, slow as shit off creep. Say they use hydra, too expensive to use hydra / swarm host and in theory this composition would be useless anyway.) Don't forget zerg doesn't have marines to protect siege tanks ;-)
The whole weakness of broodlords against terran is the fact that they are slow - and very easily picked off by vikings. Imagine how hard it is going to be to protect your swarm hosts from siege tanks and scans, you cant exactly run infestors into siege lines to fungal them can you?
It kind of gives me a 'rock paper scissors' worry for TvZ right now but we will see. I think it was IdrA who was saying how all the units just feel stupidly overpowered and completely counter each other in every matchup, so we will have to see what happens in beta. I really don't know how I feel about HOTS atm...
It's pure speculation but I think Swam hosts will be decent at protecting themselves since Locusts can last up to 25 seconds and they spawn every 25 seconds. Even if you spawn them, and camp them over your Swarm hosts.
Say they use hydra, too expensive to use hydra / swarm host and in theory this composition would be useless anyway.
I think you may be getting ahead of yourself here. Swarm host + hydralisks looked damn strong in the Battle reports. It might be a great composition in HOTS. Time will tell.
the DPS of marauders is insane compared to what I see in the DPS / unit release of the swarm host. I just have a vision in my head of 3-4 marauders derping 2-3 swarm hosts in 5 seconds flat.
Use hydralisks, fungal and blind to marauders. Also Locusts can crush medivac at any time. Their stats are similar with roach, but shorter range and less hp, plus anti-air atack included.
Also, saw a video somewhere of someone at anaheim using the 'tempest' unit. It has absolutely insane range, and he did some kind of 1 base tempest rush, sieging the zerg natural and there seemed like zerg could do nothing about it.
Tempest is a "long range siege support", not a "long range siege flying tank without deployable mode". Also tempest speed is 2.25, that is slower, than mutalisk and corruptor
You can kill it with:
* vipers + hydralisks * fungal + locusts (cheaper in terms of vespene and mostly at tier2) -> stun and locust them * mutalisks and or corruptors. There are no splash
Don't forget zerg doesn't have marines to protect siege tanks
They have hydralisks and Queens. Queens can heal Swarm Hosts. Also, locusts can do small support vs air
Here's my take on what I think would make the widow mine really interesting: the new factory unit / viking / raven should be able to deploy the widow mines, in a similar way to spider mines. Research in tech lab attached to factory / starport depending on which unit gets it, then once research finishes then each currently existing unit gets 1 free one and the rest cost money to make but are still produced within the actual units, kind of like carrier/interceptor (costing whatever amount they find is balanced). Max carrying capacity of 1, maybe 2.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP, but this sounds like it has a lot of potential. I guess Blizzard does have the technology after all
This is actually not true at all. Modern AI is disgustingly good at micro. Where it fails is in strategic depth to direct its macro.
Look up, for example, the Berkeley Overmind. Muta micro that makes Jaedong look like a scrub. But that's ALL it does (plus some solid overlord positioning AI), plus expand, and build sunken colonies.
I'm just repeating what Chris Sigaty himself said. I think he knows better than anyone else.
I'm sure he's aware of the level of AI that's actually in the game, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he followed stuff like the BWAPI competitions, but
a) You didn't specify the "AI that's currently in game", you said AI in a very general sense. If you meant the former, that's entirely reasonable, but I still felt like the mistake needed to be pointed out so no-one would be mislead by it. (Please don't take this the wrong way, my post is intended to be educational, rather than combative). b) While I'm sure that what he meant was the "AI that's currently in game" (and it definitely can't micro like MKP ), I'm certain that he doesn't know that AI as well the software engineers who wrote it, and he's definitely not an expert on the field of AI in general. It really wouldn't be that difficult to replace the existing AI with something EMAPF (Evolutionary Multi-Agent Potential Field) based, at least for micro. The difficult part would be reactive macro, but an evolutionary algorithm based on the responses they've already given it would probably also be an improvement. The in-game AI could become an actually useful training tool in that case.
On June 18 2012 09:13 malaan wrote: So about the swarm host....
I saw that Blizzard said they wanted a unit that could break siege lines from the ground and give zerg some 'map control' capabilities. Sounds good, but what happens when this unit is in it's 'siege' mode and terran decides to drop marauders on them with a scan? the DPS of marauders is insane compared to what I see in the DPS / unit release of the swarm host. I just have a vision in my head of 3-4 marauders derping 2-3 swarm hosts in 5 seconds flat.
this shouldnt happen if u have a bunch of lings/roaches/hydras defending and supporting the swarm host. it has the same effect as marauders vs tanks. if the tanks are unsupported then a few marauders will stim in and snipe them all, but u obviously wont run and try to snipe siege tanks that are supported by a bunch of marines now will u?
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
faster hellions with a moving shot wat??? as a zerg player i just had a heart attack here :B
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
faster hellions with a moving shot wat??? as a zerg player i just had a heart attack here :B
To be fair there was no splash on its base attack.
The Protoss race needs units that benefit from micro, because that is something that they really lack. And what do they get?! The oracle's entomb spell seems really dumb because you just basicly go in and entomb all the minerals and go away, no micro required and guaranteed damage. I haven't tested it but if it's as dumb as it sound...
And the Tempest seems cool in one way with the extraordinary range as a siege unit. But it also seems to be an a-click unit. I actually think that the tempest seems okay otherwise, and it will be good to break siege lines. But It doesn't seem like your gonna be able to micro it that much.
The mothership core i like, but it's not really a unit.
So it seems the protoss ''ball'' is basicly gonna look exacly the same in WoL as in HoTS. I know Blizzard didn't want to add anything to the already really strong deathball, but i still feel that they should have given protoss something they could micro more with.
Atleast make it so that you have to entomb every mineral patch individually or something.
On June 15 2012 06:06 0neder wrote: .....does he know spider mines were free in brood war? try balancing them another way, or better yet make the hellion faster with moving shot and give it to that unit, or the reaper.
There weren't free. You need to research them and build vultures to access them and you only get a limited amout per vulture.
I havent played the beta yet but from what ive seen and read.
The terran is going good way - making mech more viable even though units dont seem to be much fun. The mine is kinda silly (attack air AND cloak? .. okay) - I think some adjustments are inevitable.
Zerg is going good way but done poorly. Ultarisk burrow charge - this is essentialy good but its kinda stupid. Something like ram or charge would do same and be actually more fitting. Viper I like but it might be too strong late game (4-5 full energy vipers pulling half army into BL/Spine seems abit .. meh).
Protoss is basically no change and its completely design fail (yet again) added units actually encourage protoss to mass up deathball even more. In interviews they say units like oracle and tempest should lean away from deathball and i think its other way round. MS core provides - faster eco, easier defending, recall is actually good. Oracle is unit that basically buys you time to get the deathball - slow enemy eco, invis for me. Tempest - replacement for carrier - this alone is saying its not non-deathball unit. And yeah expensive T3 unit with slow attack and big range - nothing out of deathball mentality here.
Tbh I feel a bit sorry for protoss because apart from certain features (blink, forcefield, storm) its not fun to play at all in any matchup and it wont change much.
On June 18 2012 17:06 Veriol wrote: Viper I like but it might be too strong late game (4-5 full energy vipers pulling half army into BL/Spine seems abit .. meh).
2-3 Templar feedbacking said 4-5 Vipers with 2 more range than abduct, instant cast (and when enough energy on Viper, instant death) does not seem... meh to you? Not to mention, if you don't have any and see Vipers incoming you can warp in Templar and still be ready to Feedback? It is already way underused against BL/infestor, maybe Protoss will learn in the expansion how good that Spell really is
Protoss usually wins bio with his splash damage, because gateway units are so bad, but BHW (battle-helion, warhound) composition is basically the same, only they get repaired instead of healed.
So the BHW compossition is much more resistant to Toss AOE, even more, helions will now have AOE, which leaves P in the weird position. I can see a counter to mech as archon-immotal, but yet again, immortals do not do splash.
On June 18 2012 17:06 Veriol wrote: Viper I like but it might be too strong late game (4-5 full energy vipers pulling half army into BL/Spine seems abit .. meh).
2-3 Templar feedbacking said 4-5 Vipers with 2 more range than abduct, instant cast (and when enough energy on Viper, instant death) does not seem... meh to you? Not to mention, if you don't have any and see Vipers incoming you can warp in Templar and still be ready to Feedback? It is already way underused against BL/infestor, maybe Protoss will learn in the expansion how good that Spell really is
Yeah feedback is strong and warpgate is broken. Thats well known.
y, but they have splash only to the kind of a unity to which they are attached attached to air units, splash only to air attached to ground units, splash only to ground
"there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP" - I guess A.I. doesn't have enough APM or maybe it does. But for AI to be called AI, I think it should be able to engage fights with good positionings. - Just my wishful thinking...
I dont know why a other thread about huskies view on Hots was close, but i think he said 1 thing in which i highly agree and that was that protoss will be less fun to play. Pretty much all units stimulate to stay in base and build up a deathball army.
I think he was spot on with the oracle. It doesnt matter how your contol with the unit it is, you just forcefield the minerals and thats it. You the opponent cant deny it, and you cant be supper effective with it because you how control the unit doesnt really matter. Its not exciting to play with or to play against it.
On June 18 2012 18:07 bgx wrote: Does widow mine have friendly fire?
Yes it does. This is another problem in regards to the balancing of the unit. I can easily see a zergling runby where the mines attach to them, and the zerg just proceeds to go the the mineral line, lol.
On June 20 2012 22:31 Crisco wrote: I just realized a major "flaw"(?) to swarm host. They can't siege down or up cliffs at all. This is gonna be a problem lol
Well if they could then there would be no way to break a zerg ever, so i guess that's alright. They need to be vulnerable in some way.
On June 15 2012 06:03 KonohaFlash wrote: ...Obviously this will not be 1:1 as there is no way A.I can say micro like MKP...
That's where you are wrong sir, You should say that even MKP can't have a half of micro the AI can... Ever heard about blink hack? Or marine split bot?
On June 15 2012 08:11 Geos13 wrote: I really don't follow Browders logic on the Tempest. He starts by explaining that toss air units are only used in specific scenarios and they wanted to make something that would give you a reason to go SG no matter what. Then explains how Tempest is primarily for long range harassment to supplement your actual army. The idea of a 22 range non AOE unit is awesome but what stargate is missing are units that can just fight. Hopefully I'm wrong.
He said in the video too that he didnt want the Tempest to be ''another Colossus'' or similar long range damage unit without a whole lot of brains required.
Also the new Zerg Vipers will take care of it just as easily. The Tempest however looks to have such a long range and is not slower than a Viper, that it can actually allude them and kill them (and swarm hosts) safely. The tempest is so expensive that you can't both go for that and the Collossus, and its damage is too low for it to work with just one or two. The idea is probably that you can make a choice. It will weaken your deathball though so you'll have to go and be more proactive and kill units with the Tempests all the time so they become valuable.
On June 15 2012 08:11 Geos13 wrote: I really don't follow Browders logic on the Tempest. He starts by explaining that toss air units are only used in specific scenarios and they wanted to make something that would give you a reason to go SG no matter what. Then explains how Tempest is primarily for long range harassment to supplement your actual army. The idea of a 22 range non AOE unit is awesome but what stargate is missing are units that can just fight. Hopefully I'm wrong.
He said in the video too that he didnt want the Tempest to be ''another Colossus'' or similar long range damage unit without a whole lot of brains required.
Also the new Zerg Vipers will take care of it just as easily. The Tempest however looks to have such a long range and is not slower than a Viper, that it can actually allude them and kill them (and swarm hosts) safely. The tempest is so expensive that you can't both go for that and the Collossus, and its damage is too low for it to work with just one or two. The idea is probably that you can make a choice. It will weaken your deathball though so you'll have to go and be more proactive and kill units with the Tempests all the time so they become valuable.
At least, thats how I think it will pan out.
I feel like that would work a lot better if the Tempest still had the same 6.0 attack speed, but it attacked instantly and had a 6 second cooldown instead, which would allow it to kite. Perhaps a 3 second charge + 3 second cooldown or something. As it is now, you need to have your Tempests stationary and charging for 6 seconds before they fire, negating your range advantage: Vipers close in by 13.5 and Corruptors by 17.7 units per Tempest firing animation. What this means is that, even if you have vision of the enemy air units and start charging your shot right at 22 range, you'd still only get in one volley before they start abducting or ripping your 300/300 capital ships apart - Corruptors even start shooting at your Tempest before you manage to fire at them! Now add the fact that you need 5 upupgraded Tempest shots just to kill one Corruptor, and I really don't see balls of them doing that well on their own. Simplifying the situation a bit, you trade 2 Corruptors for 1 Tempest, for 100 gas less - and that's ignoring Corruption. Sure, there's the rest of your army as well, but the 22 range really doesn't translate into good kiting/sniping units at all when the attack animation/damage stays as it is.
I can see them used to force engagement very well, however. Even if it's only two of them, they kill Sieged tanks in two volleys (ignoring SCV repair). Those are army losses a turtling Terran simply cannot ignore and he'll have to move out.
This is where I see the unit coming in in its current form: you play as normal (with Oracle harass added in), then add 2-3 Tempest in the lategame just to be annoying and have some control of where the Terran mech army sieges.
From official press-kit. Nothing new, but some official info about overseer changeling ability, oracle scout ability and mothership's stasis ability
This document lists the new units and abilities in the MLG Spring Championship preview build of StarCraft® II: Heart of the Swarm™. Please keep in mind that Heart of the Swarm is still in development, and all of the units and abilities you see described below are subject to change. It's even possible that some of these units and abilities will be discarded and new ones will be created to replace them as we continue to iterate on the game design. What we've listed below is just a snapshot of where we currently stand on multiplayer Heart of the Swarm.
Protoss Upon analyzing data from their most recent battles, the protoss have identified a few areas of improvement that would help them maximize effectiveness against their enemies. Based on their findings, the protoss have augmented their arsenal with an extremely long-range attacker, additional psionic units, and a new form of enemy harassment.
Tempest Description: The tempest is a new capital ship that can fire at both ground and air targets from long range, doing additional damage to massive units. A further range upgrade can be researched to give the Tempest the ability to fire from incredible distances.
Oracle Description: The Oracle is a psionic warship, built from a Stargate, that uses several unique abilities to raid and harass the enemy. The first is Entomb, which can temporarily block mineral fields from being harvested. Another ability, Preordain, grants detection and vision around a targeted building, allowing the protoss to see which units or technologies are being researched. Rounding out its kit is Cloak Field, which temporarily cloaks everything around the Oracle.
Mothership Core Description: The Mothership Core is unique in more ways than one. Only a single one can exist in your army at once and it's also immobile, attaching itself to a nexus. There are four abilities available from the Mothership Core. Teleport allows you to move the Mothership Core to any of your other nexuses. Energize tops off the energy stores of any target unit or structure. Purify is a defensive ability that temporarily grants the Mothership Core a powerful, long range attack. Finally, Mass Recall allows players to quickly recall units back to the Mothership Core.
Mothership Description: It's not really a new unit in Heart of the Swarm, but the Mothership abilities are slightly different from Wings of Liberty. The passive cloaking field is gone, with the cloak now available as an activated ability on the Oracle. The Mothership retains its Recall ability, and the Vortex spell from Wings of Liberty now affects ground units only. A new ability called Stasis is available, which puts the mothership and all air units around it into stasis for about 20 seconds. The Mothership is now created by upgrading the Mothership Core after a Fleet Beacon is constructed.
**In the current multiplayer build of Heart of the Swarm, the protoss are not able to deploy Carriers. However, we have not yet made a final determination on the Carrier's status..
Terran The resourceful terrans have also been improving their technology to better survive their battles in the Koprulu sector.
Widow Mine Description: The Widow Mine is a new suicide unit built from the Factory that allows the terran player to control areas of the battlefield. The Widow Mine moves into position and sets to stationary mode, which burrows and activates it. When an enemy air or ground unit moves into range, the Widow Mine briefly flashes before moving and attaching itself to that unit. After several seconds, the mine detonates, dealing 200 damage to the unit and a smaller amount of damage to units in the surrounding area.
Warhound Description: The Warhound is a walking ground mech that is specialized as an anti-mechanical weapon. Smaller and more nimble than a Thor, the Warhound has a standard weapon to hit ground. Its true strength is an additional ability that fires powerful missiles at ground-based mechanical units, making it particularly well suited to taking out enemy siege lines and many protoss ground units.
New Abilities The Hellion has been upgraded to a transforming unit similar to the Viking. When constructed from the factory, the Hellion spawns in its new battle mode, which gives it additional hit points and a stronger flame attack that covers a short forward-facing arc. This makes the Hellion more effective in late-game fights against large clusters of light units such as Zealots. The player can opt to transform the Hellion into its original, more mobile form as well. In Heart of the Swarm, the Battlecruiser gains a cooldown-based speed-boost ability called Redline Reactor. Finally, the Reaper no longer has a special building attack. Instead, it gains a passive health-regeneration upgrade that allows it to recharge hit points quickly when out of combat.
Zerg The zerg continue to evolve and adapt to changing environments, particularly the dangers they face on the battlefield. New creatures will help the zerg stage more effective sieges and add unique enemy-manipulating abilities to their arsenal.
Viper Description: The Viper is a new flying unit with three unique abilities. Blinding Cloud temporarily reduces the attack range of biological ground units inside the cloud to melee range. Abduct allows the Viper to physically pull a unit to the Viper’s location. Finally, the Viper can use Consume, a channeled ability that allows it to gain some energy back at the expense of damage to your own zerg building.
Swarm Host Description: The Swarm Host is a slow-moving ground unit that has no standard attack. When burrowed, the Swarm Host spawns a continuous stream of slow-moving units called Locusts that can be used to lay siege and pressure entrenched enemy positions.
New Abilities Ultralisks have a new Burrow Charge skill that lets them dive underground and quickly surface at a target, allowing them to initiate the fight faster on a crowded battlefield. However, its "frenzy" passive from Wings of Liberty has been removed, meaning the Ultralisk can now be snared by abilities like Fungal Growth. The Overseer has been retained from Wings of Liberty, and changelings can now be spawned from siege range. Finally, the Hydralisk has a new upgrade that allows them to move faster while not on creep.
One thing I'm wondering about, reading that now: Will Immortal's shields still reduce Widow Mine damage to 10? If so, I can see them being used to sweep mines by keeping them at the front of the army in the absense of detection. It would be rather slow if you had to wait out the 10s countdown, but otherwise it'd be pretty cost effective: One single Immortal would be able to sweep up 750/250 worth of Mines before their shields are depleted. Possible more due to recharge.
A related thought: what would be the vision range on Widow Mines? If it's any larger than 3 they would essentially become Terran Creep Tumor/Superbaneling hybrids :/ Map vision plus the ability to blow up units seems a bit on the strong side. I could see it being a fun mechanic if the Mines hardly had any vision range, so you had to escort them to their burrow positions if you wanted to be sure they arrived intact.
On June 23 2012 00:25 DarQraven wrote: I feel like that would work a lot better if the Tempest still had the same 6.0 attack speed, but it attacked instantly and had a 6 second cooldown instead, which would allow it to kite. Perhaps a 3 second charge + 3 second cooldown or something. As it is now, you need to have your Tempests stationary and charging for 6 seconds before they fire, negating your range advantage: Vipers close in by 13.5 and Corruptors by 17.7 units per Tempest firing animation. What this means is that, even if you have vision of the enemy air units and start charging your shot right at 22 range, you'd still only get in one volley before they start abducting or ripping your 300/300 capital ships apart - Corruptors even start shooting at your Tempest before you manage to fire at them! Now add the fact that you need 5 upupgraded Tempest shots just to kill one Corruptor, and I really don't see balls of them doing that well on their own. Simplifying the situation a bit, you trade 2 Corruptors for 1 Tempest, for 100 gas less - and that's ignoring Corruption. Sure, there's the rest of your army as well, but the 22 range really doesn't translate into good kiting/sniping units at all when the attack animation/damage stays as it is.
I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper.
Don't forget that a Tempest's first attack is immediately, after 6 seconds a single Tempest has dealt 90/120 damage. As far as I know the attack always charges, which allows you to kite.
I would like to see a) Increased damage the less time the shot travels (say twice the damage at melee range) b) Overcharging while not attacking. This would make the first hit in a fight stronger and could allow for better kiting.
On June 23 2012 00:25 DarQraven wrote: I feel like that would work a lot better if the Tempest still had the same 6.0 attack speed, but it attacked instantly and had a 6 second cooldown instead, which would allow it to kite. Perhaps a 3 second charge + 3 second cooldown or something. As it is now, you need to have your Tempests stationary and charging for 6 seconds before they fire, negating your range advantage: Vipers close in by 13.5 and Corruptors by 17.7 units per Tempest firing animation. What this means is that, even if you have vision of the enemy air units and start charging your shot right at 22 range, you'd still only get in one volley before they start abducting or ripping your 300/300 capital ships apart - Corruptors even start shooting at your Tempest before you manage to fire at them! Now add the fact that you need 5 upupgraded Tempest shots just to kill one Corruptor, and I really don't see balls of them doing that well on their own. Simplifying the situation a bit, you trade 2 Corruptors for 1 Tempest, for 100 gas less - and that's ignoring Corruption. Sure, there's the rest of your army as well, but the 22 range really doesn't translate into good kiting/sniping units at all when the attack animation/damage stays as it is.
I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper.
Don't forget that a Tempest's first attack is immediately, after 6 seconds a single Tempest has dealt 90/120 damage. As far as I know the attack always charges, which allows you to kite.
I would like to see a) Increased damage the less time the shot travels (say twice the damage at melee range) b) Overcharging while not attacking. This would make the first hit in a fight stronger and could allow for better kiting.
You're right, I did see that wrong in the battle reports. Tempests do indeed function 'properly': instant fire, charge while moving is possible. That still doesn't change much about the situation I described, though. So they get two shots off instead of one: 2 Tempests doing that still don't kill a single Corruptor. If they are going to be used instead of a Deathball, I guess this would be a very positioning heavy style: once you can't cover your Tempests with your ground army, they're dead. You need three Tempests all targeting one Viper to kill it before it gets in range to Abduct, so that'll probably turn into a tense situation.
I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper.
Don't forget that a Tempest's first attack is immediately, after 6 seconds a single Tempest has dealt 90/120 damage. As far as I know the attack always charges, which allows you to kite.
I would like to see a) Increased damage the less time the shot travels (say twice the damage at melee range) b) Overcharging while not attacking. This would make the first hit in a fight stronger and could allow for better kiting.
Mass speedralisk with corruptors will own that combo
I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper.
Mass speedralisk with corruptors will own that combo
Of course, there are several unit comps that will own it. However BL/Corr/Viper isn't one of them. I am already looking forward to all those possibilities, even simple ones like Roach/Swarm Host could be fun and since they share upgrades quite powerful.
Maybe ling/bling/roach/viper/infestor. Mass roaches will not do too well against viper/lings. Lings can surround and hold them in place while viper take out their range. It becomes much more complex since now it becomes a giant rock paper scissors where lings with vipers can take out roaches effectively, but blings can take out lings effectively, while roaches themselves are just about immune to blings as long as they can get out from viper's spell, but infestors can hold them in place. Very complex...
On June 23 2012 04:31 Existor wrote: Interesting, what combo will dominate in ZvZ ? Will be there something stronger, than Roach-Festor?
I can see swarm host / hydra with some infestor support beating roach infestor quite well. Roaches don't do enough DPS to deal with about 8 defensive swarm hosts + hydra and infestors. It seems such a superior combination. It may turn out different in game though.
And when Hive tech (OMG HIVE TECH ZvZ!) kicks in, you can add vipers and it becomes even better of a combination.
I think Roach Infestor will disappear in HOTS outside of maybe some sharp timing attacks perhaps. But even then, that's unlikely.
On June 23 2012 04:31 Existor wrote: Interesting, what combo will dominate in ZvZ ? Will be there something stronger, than Roach-Festor?
I can see swarm host / hydra with some infestor support beating roach infestor quite well. Roaches don't do enough DPS to deal with about 8 defensive swarm hosts + hydra and infestors. It seems such a superior combination. It may turn out different in game though.
And when Hive tech (OMG HIVE TECH ZvZ!) kicks in, you can add vipers and it becomes even better of a combination.
I think Roach Infestor will disappear in HOTS outside of maybe some sharp timing attacks perhaps. But even then, that's unlikely.
I'll tell you what combo will dominate ZvZ late game, Infestor, Viper. Vipers reduce the range of bio to 1, and Infestors keep them in place, as if fungal wasn't bad enough because you couldn't move/reposition now you won't even be able to fight back. Infestor + Viper with almost any other unit could just crush any other ground unit composition. Air units have it slightly better because I am assuming they aren't affected by the cloud, only by the fungal. So in conclusion the new meta will be Infestor + Viper + BL + Corrupters.
However if I am wrong and the cloud affects biological air units above it then prepare for a world of spell caster hurt.
The combo of Infestor and Viper alone against ground armies looks so incredibly broken that I'm almost anticipating zergs trying to rush to Hive as quickly as possible to take advantage of it or not die to it.
The combo also looks stupidly strong against Terran bio, and I fear it could just kill its viability altogether.
On June 23 2012 06:54 Destructicon wrote: I'll tell you what combo will dominate ZvZ late game, Infestor, Viper. Vipers reduce the range of bio to 1, and Infestors keep them in place, as if fungal wasn't bad enough because you couldn't move/reposition now you won't even be able to fight back. Infestor + Viper with almost any other unit could just crush any other ground unit composition. Air units have it slightly better because I am assuming they aren't affected by the cloud, only by the fungal. So in conclusion the new meta will be Infestor + Viper + BL + Corrupters.
However if I am wrong and the cloud affects biological air units above it then prepare for a world of spell caster hurt.
The combo of Infestor and Viper alone against ground armies looks so incredibly broken that I'm almost anticipating zergs trying to rush to Hive as quickly as possible to take advantage of it or not die to it.
The combo also looks stupidly strong against Terran bio, and I fear it could just kill its viability altogether.
Sure it seems strong but Viper = 200 gas, Infestor = 150 gas, BL = 250 gas. Just very expensive and somewhat slow. A mix with Ultras in it should be strong against something like this, Viper and Infestor are quite bad vs Ultras. Combine with Corruptor or your own Vipers to render BL useless and maybe Swarm Host to finish the job.
On June 23 2012 20:19 fakepriest wrote: It would be so funny if you were required to research burrow so your swarm hosts could actually burrow....hahaha eh....
oh god please don't let this happen.. t_t
They mentioned in one of these battle-reports, that u actually DON'T need to research it. They are the only unit that can burrow without needing the research.
On June 23 2012 20:19 fakepriest wrote: It would be so funny if you were required to research burrow so your swarm hosts could actually burrow....hahaha eh....
oh god please don't let this happen.. t_t
They mentioned in one of these battle-reports, that u actually DON'T need to research it. They are the only unit that can burrow without needing the research.
Just realised something: http://i.imgur.com/flhHP.jpg?1 If you check this chart, Broodlords only have 8 DPS. Compare this to Tempest: *More than twice the range *Twice the HP *Attacks air *Moves faster *More DPS
The advantages of a BL are less supply cost and Broodlings, however this would increase the dps to 14.2 only if the Broodling isn't killed before the BL attacks again. Also a Tempest gains +4/+6 per upgrade, while BL gains +2 and Broodling gains +1, which gets canceled out by armor upgrades.
On June 23 2012 06:00 ddrddrddrddr wrote: Maybe ling/bling/roach/viper/infestor. Mass roaches will not do too well against viper/lings. Lings can surround and hold them in place while viper take out their range. It becomes much more complex since now it becomes a giant rock paper scissors where lings with vipers can take out roaches effectively, but blings can take out lings effectively, while roaches themselves are just about immune to blings as long as they can get out from viper's spell, but infestors can hold them in place. Very complex...
Sounds better than who has more roaches
EDIT:
On June 23 2012 21:48 erazerr wrote: I think that pulling collousus into a zerg army with vipers and then NPing with infestors will mean that toss will never make collosus in the matchup
I don't know who said it earlier but I think it would be cool to give the mines to the warhound, and make them cost money the same way interceptors cost money to make. It could work the same way the spider mines did with the vulture (max 3 mines), but autocastable and costing money. I think having the mines coming out of the factory as a unit feels a little awkward.
On June 23 2012 22:02 howLiN wrote: I don't know who said it earlier but I think it would be cool to give the mines to the warhound, and make them cost money the same way interceptors cost money to make. It could work the same way the spider mines did with the vulture (max 3 mines), but autocastable and costing money. I think having the mines coming out of the factory as a unit feels a little awkward.
I wouldn't like that. It would force you to produce Warhound even though the only thing you wanted were the mines, it would narrow the possible strategies involving them.
Blizzard used the Spidermine model for the demo because their Widow Mine model wasn't finished (as were the 3 Nydus Worms), I think the true Widow Mine will look more like something that can walk around the map on its own.
EPT
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changes, the community has shown most excitement for the mine. Except for DRG who wants it removed 
), I'm certain that he doesn't know that AI as well the software engineers who wrote it, and he's definitely not an expert on the field of AI in general. It really wouldn't be that difficult to replace the existing AI with something EMAPF (Evolutionary Multi-Agent Potential Field) based, at least for micro. The difficult part would be reactive macro, but an evolutionary algorithm based on the responses they've already given it would probably also be an improvement. The in-game AI could become an actually useful training tool in that case.![[image loading]](http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20120622/OaQ6GRSi.png)
