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Due to a variety of things I was unable to update this as planned. Tonight I will be going ahead and getting the info I have up there. Sorry about the delay!
Hello everyone! As an attendee to MLG I figured I would go ahead and grab all of the stats for the HotS changes since I have had a hard time finding them. Here is a link to a nicely formatted version, or just check out the quotes below.
Quick note. I took all this information whilst quickly scribbling in my notebook and my writing is terrible. I need to re-verify that widow mines take a tech lab to build and that reapers have range 7, as people have brought this up to me. I will double check those tomorrow (and any other errors you guys point out ^^) while testing the stasis spell as well.
Terran: Reaper – Light, Biological
Requirement: Barracks w/ Tech Lab
Minerals: 50 Gas: 50 Supply: 1 Build Time: 40 Health: 60 Speed: 2.95 Base Armor: 0 Attack Damage:2 x 4 (7 vs. Light) Attack Range: 7 Attack Delay: 1.1 Upgrade: Combat Drugs
Minerals: 50 Gas: 50 Research Time: 80 This lets the Reaper regenerate health outside combat. Very rough estimates show about 6 in game seconds after shooting or being shot the Reaper begins to regenerate 2 health per second.
Initial Thoughts: It feels like the Reaper is still trying to be a bit of a harassment unit. The problem is that it is still not fast enough. Also, the speed upgrade is no longer in the game. Oddly enough I ran into David Kim and voiced this to him. So if Reaper is faster in release you all have me to thank (or blame) :D
Hellion
Requires Factory
Minerals: 100 Gas: 0 Supply: 2 Build Time: 30 Health (Battle Mode): 135 Base Armor (Battle Mode): 0 Speed (Battle Mode): 2.25 Attack Damage (Battle Mode): 10 Attack Range (Battle Mode): 2 in an AoE cone Attack Delay (Battle Mode): 1.9 Health (Vehicle Mode): 90 Base Armor (Vehicle Mode): 0 Speed (Vehicle Mode): 4.25 Attack Damage (Vehicle Mode): 8 (14 vs. Light) Attack Range (Vehicle Mode): 5 in a linear AoE Attack Delay (Vehicle Mode): 2.5 Ability – Transformation: Switches between battle and vehicle mode. 3 second transformation time. When built the Hellion comes out of the factory in battle mode.
Upgrade – Blue Flame: Functions same as in Wings of Liberty.
Initial Thoughts: I did not have as much time to play around with battle Hellions as I would like, but I did play against them. They seem alright. Good for cannon fodder but not too much else. There are good uses for it I am sure I am missing but I was not able to find them in the small time allowed to us.
Warhound – Armored, Mechanical
Requires Factory w/ Tech Lab
Minerals: 150 Gas: 75 Supply: 2 Build Time: 45 Health: 220 Base Armor: 1 Speed: 2.81 Attack Damage: 23 Attack Range: 7 Attack Delay: 1.3 Ability – Haywire:
Autocastable
Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack.
Initial Thoughts: Plain and simple the Warhound is a scary unit. It is fast, has good range, and does a TON of damage. I think this will become a new staple in matchups if it stays in its current form. Good all around and rather cheap for as good as it is. However it is important to note that while this unit was originally debuted as a mini-Thor the Warhound actually has no ground to air attack. The Thor however remains in this build identical to how it currently is in Wings of Liberty.
Widow Mine – Light, Mechanical
Requires Factory
Minerals: 75 Gas: 25 Supply: 1 Build Time: 20 Health: - Speed: - Attack Damage: 200* Attack Range: * Attack Delay: 10 Seconds after latching on. Special Ability – Burrow: 3 seconds to burrow. Aside from the time to burrow it functions exactly the same as regular burrow.
After burrowing and a brief arming time the mine will launch up and latch itself to a unit. The mine has a limited type of detection in that it will not give you detection, but will latch on to and reveal invisible units. Ground or air. The range is approximately 5-6 and the explosion does an AoE with a radius of about 3-4.
Multiple mines cannot latch on to the same unit, and a small countdown animation visible to you and your opponent appears on the unit affected. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. There is no known way to remove the mines short of detonation.
Initial Thoughts: This is an insanely good unit. It does take up valuable factory time but it is worth it. There are so many uses to this from defense to offense to harassment that for the time being the best I can say is that this will be an amazing units in all matchups.
Other things of note: Redline Reactor – Doubles speed and increases acceleration of the Battlecruiser for 6 seconds at a cost of 100 energy.
Thors – As noted in the warhound section. Still present in the same form as in Wing of Liberty.
Zerg Swarm Host – Armored, Biological
Requires Infestation Pit
Minerals: 200 Gas: 100 Supply: 3 Build Time: 40 Health: 120 Base Armor: 1 Speed: 2.25 Attack Damage: N/A Attack Range: N/A Attack Delay: N/A Special Ability – Spawn Locusts
Swarm Host spawns 2 locusts which rally on an attack-move command. The Swarm Host spawns them every 25 seconds as long as burrow and the locusts last 15 seconds.
Special Ability – Burrow:
Works like for the Widow Mine. 3 seconds to burrow during which the Swarm Host can be attacked.
Upgrade – Increase Locust Time:
Minerals: 200 Gas: 200 Time: 100 Increases the time the locusts last by 10 seconds (to a total of 25 seconds).
Locusts – Light, Biological Health: 65 Speed: 1.88 Attack Damage: 16 Attack Range: 2 Attack Delay: 1.2 Initial Thoughts: Wow. Just wow. Locusts are good. While playing Celebreth we found out that not only do they have minor range but they also can hit air. This is an insanely good unit at this stage in the game. Coupled with support of any kind the constant pressure that these Swarm Hosts can put on is impressive. This definitely opens up an aggressive playstyle for Zerg that did not exist before. I daresay it is actually a little too strong...
Viper – Armored, Biological, Air
Requires Hive
Minerals: 100 Gas: 200 Supply: 3 Build Time: 40 Health: 120 Base Armor: 1 Speed: 2.25 Special Ability – Consume:
The Viper does 200 damage to a friendly building over 10 seconds to regenerate 50 energy.
Special Ability – Abduct (75 Energy):
The Viper pulls a unit instantly to the Viper's location. Approximate range of 7.
Special Ability – Blinding Cloud (125 Energy):
Creates a cloud that reduces the attack range of any biological units in the AoE to melee. Same AoE and range as fungal growth.
Initial Thoughts: One of the largest problems with Zerg engagements was that positioning had a more powerful impact on Zerg than any other race. The Viper tackles that problem and allows us to manipulate the field in a dynamic way that at the moment no other race has. This is a unit I hope remains unchanged and cannot wait to see used by people better than I.
Other Things of Note: Burrowed Movement for Banelings is out.
Hydralisk Upgrade – Muscular Augmentation:
Minerals: 150 Gas: 150 Time: 100 This gives the Hydralisks 50% faster movement off creep which brings the Hydralisk speed to 3.38 in all situations.
Ultralisk Burrow – Ultralisks come with this ability innately.
Cooldown: 30 Seconds Range: ~7 Takes roughly 1 second at max range. All units in the space the ultralisk unburrows take regular attack damage and are knocked back. Creep Tumors – The Creep Tumors have a cool little animation. A tad slower now but worth it because we all know looks are an upgrade right?
Protoss Mothership Core – Mechanical, Armor, Psionic, Massive, Unique No requirement (As in you can make it with nothing but a Nexus and an Assimilator)
Minerals: 100 Gas: 50 Supply: 3 Build Time: 60 Health: 350 Shields: 350 Armor: 2 Speed: Immobile Special Ability – Teleport (25 Energy):
The Mothership Core teleports to another Nexus.
Special Ability – Energize (25 Energy):
At a range of ~8 the Mship Core recharges the energy of any unit/building at the rate of about 25 per second. If energy is spent during this recharge time the building/unit will still recharge to maximum energy (Basic Application: Mass Chronoboost).
Special Ability – Purify (75 Energy):
The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds.
Damage: 60 Range: 13 Delay: 1.25 Special Ability – Mass Recall: Functions the same as the current Mothership spell.
Special Ability – Build Mothership
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300 Gas: 350 Time: 100 Supply: 8 Basically finishes building the Mothership. Takes up production at the Nexus. Cannot be chrono boosted from what I could tell. This needs better verification though. Mothership is the same as in Wings of Liberty with the exception of having a Stasis spell I was unable to test.
Initial Thoughts: Another great addition to the game. Allows a great deal of versatility throughout the game. Super early build time makes it so that early expansion builds will be much easier to pull off in the PvP matchup. Aside from that it is a great economy booster, a great way to make sure your Oracles have full energy (or Sentries). Just really what this means for Protoss is that the game for Toss players has changed far more than it has for Terrans or Zergs at all stages of the game.
Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300 Gas: 300 Supply: 6 Build Time: 75 Health: 300 Shields: 150 Speed: 2.25 Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive) Attack Range: 10 Attack Delay: 6 Upgrade – Gravity Sling:
At Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 150 Gas: 150 Time: 100 The Tempest gets +12 range.
Intial Thoughts: You know, I am trying to like the Tempest. I really am. But since the cost is so insanely high it seems like it is not worth it. 300/300 for a lot of single target damage. To me this is not so great. Granted with the 22 range I am sure there will be some interesting pressure uses for the tempest, but it is severely lackluster for a straight up engagement type unit. I could see it more paired with the Oracle to stop things like Brood Lords, other Tempests, Bcs, and Thors.
Oracle – Light Mechanical
Requires Stargate
Minerals: 150 Gas: 200 Supply: 3 Build Time: 60 Health: 80 Shields: 20 Speed: 3.75 Special Ability – Preordain (75 Energy):
Gain vision and detection around a building in a range of ~12 for 2 minutes.
Special Ability – Entomb (75 Energy):
Creates an energy barrier around mineral patches for 45 seconds. These barriers can be destroyed with attacks and have 75 HP. Barriers have no innate armor/shield armor and do not benefit from upgrades.
Special Ability – Cloaking Field (100 Energy):
Cloaks all units and buildings within ~7 range of the Oracle for 60 seconds. Works like Arbiter cloak from BW. 2 Oracles cannot cloak each other.
Initial Thoughts: I looooooove this unit. Sneaky, fast, annoying, useful in all stages of the game. Very useful especially when paired with the Mothership Core of upgraded tempests. Keep your eye on this unit and pray it is not changed.
Other Things of Note: Just reminding the Replicator has been removed a while ago.
Final Thoughts: I really enjoy how HotS is shaping up to be. These units all are good and have enough versatility to breath life into the game yet at the same time are not overshadowing other units that one can currently build. I think that while minor balancing issues are still present if this is what Heart of the Swarm will be like everyone is going to agree that it is a greatly appreciated breath of freshness into Starcraft II.
A thank you for reading this and stay tuned for more content. Twitter is the best place to see announcements when new content is put up (@Bair4D) and until my next one....
<3 Bair
Edit: Where the hell did Buttow come from? o.O
Edit 2: Added additional info about the oracle energy barriers (Thanks Lecan93!)
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Thank you! very helpful
also, wtf, Warhound only 150/75? seems cheap.
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Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job! And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper
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Maybe the guy with the HOTS custom map should implement this, so we can play the new units before the start of the beta
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What is the energy for Recall on Mothership core?
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Love the new units, they seem to basically fill the weaknesses that most of the races have. Really looking forward to seeing what kind of builds the pros can make. Also, really hoping I get into the beta
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Man i am lovong a lot of the zerg additions. Seems to fix some of the really inherent disadvantages, mainly positional issues. Adds a ton of new play styles too! So stoked!
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
All hail to buttow XD but nice input. Thanks
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49883 Posts
On June 09 2012 18:02 covetousrat wrote: What is the energy for Recall on Mothership core?
150
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Will energy barries casted by oracle benefit from shield upgrades?
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On June 09 2012 18:14 Lecan93 wrote: Will energy barries casted by oracle benefit from shield upgrades?
It does not benefit from any upgrades and has no listed innate armor/shield armor.
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Seriously? The Reaper has 7 range?!?!
That's insane! I just hope the build time is buffed a tiny bit too, maybe 5-10 seconds.
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It would have made sense for the widow mine to take a longer time to detonate on a flying unit than a ground unit . Mines have one purpose that is to solely unleash payload at anything that stumbles upon it's path neither friend or foe escapes it's wrath. I am disappointed the delay time needed for mines to explode will make it really bad and useless in the late game.
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Widow mine is pretty useless with a 10 sec cooldown . You have more than enough time to remove it from your death blob.
I guess they can be viable because they attack air units too.
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Wow tempest is so terrible cost 300/300, has as much DPS as a roach. Less than a zealot.
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When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting
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On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting 
Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless.
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On June 09 2012 18:22 SkelA wrote: Widow mine is pretty useless with a 10 sec cooldown . You have more than enough time to remove it from your death blob.
I guess they can be viable because they attack air units too.
This takes actions in a game that is already APM limited, against someone with as good APM as you. So if you're microing 4 lings out of your pack your opponent is gearing up for something at the same time.
I think people who think this isn't going to be an amazing addition ala spider mine don't have enough imagination.
Edit: And that includes DB
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On June 09 2012 18:17 Fencer710 wrote: Seriously? The Reaper has 7 range?!?!
That's insane! I just hope the build time is buffed a tiny bit too, maybe 5-10 seconds.
I think they changed the range measure in HotS. There's no way the tempest has twice the range of a seiged tank.
Edit: Wow, nevermind. The tempest really does have 22 range :O
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On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless.
they have 6 range for attachment, even if you reveal them, you need a siege weapon, they are pretty overpowered for they cost, because aside from ling they always return their cost(every other unit cost equal or more than these mines)
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On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless.
Yeah but the point is you build these things with reactors so basically open reactor hellion, build 6 hellions for early map control and then the moment you see roaches/lings/baneling, put down a few widow mines and build ONE viking to deal with said overseer and the zerg just can't bust you without losing their entire army
Pretty awesome tbh.
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When I first heard the tempest was 22 range I had to see it for myself. I dont know how but they have managed to make a bad flying unit with 22 range... boggles the mind. Frankly I hope it gets a complete rework.
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On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless.
I guess I need lair tech to roach ling bust. also like terran has no xD AA units. Also have some sense of humor its not even out.
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overseer can't do shit to widow mine, they have 6 RANGE ATTACHMENT, you need a siege units to take them out safely, even if they are revealed
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I really think 10 seconds is way too long. I mean sure, microing might take time, but if you say, have them in position before the battle, the battle will likely be over by the time the mines explode, and even if they do take some casualties... backloaded(term?) damage is far far far far far far far far less powerful than frontloaded damage
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That makes me wonder if I put a cloud on mines with my viper do they just stay in place and take it just like that xD?
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Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!)
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Anyone feels as though energize is very powerful and overshadows mass recall from mothership core? I think chronoboost is going to have a much larger impact on protoss gameplay, which is awesome 
EDIT: Also, this is also the return of the defensive khaydarian amulet, awesome <3
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Lol i have this picture ... of widow mine attaching to baneling and some angry gamer detonating them(banelings) manualy before 10 sec cooldown xD Pure funy xDDDD
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On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!)
2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2).
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Can you micro the widow mine ie. give it a priority target?
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On June 09 2012 18:45 Evangelist wrote: Can you micro the widow mine ie. give it a priority target?
I noticed that it does not seem that they will attach to units right next to each other, though this was not something I was able to test further. Aside from that possibility there appears to be no way to influence target choice.
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Cant Wait
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On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2).
Thanks for testing this stuff out! Also thanks. So it's like a spell I guess.
Instant mines. That's interesting! Sacrificing is interesting too. I guess if you look at it, 100 mineral zealot for 75 min 25 gas isn't so bad. Of course though, it would take time since you have to warp them in then run them there, so that would give terran lots of time.
Hm hallucinated phoenix, yes that sounds very effective. If it works, maybe they overlooked it like many things in WoL beta. It sounds like it would be too easy to clear the mines like that.
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On June 09 2012 18:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). Thanks for testing this stuff out! Also thanks. So it's like a spell I guess. Instant mines. That's interesting! Sacrificing is interesting too. I guess if you look at it, 100 mineral zealot for 75 min 25 gas isn't so bad. Of course though, it would take time since you have to warp them in then run them there, so that would give terran lots of time. Hm hallucinated phoenix, yes that sounds very effective. If it works, maybe they overlooked it like many things in WoL beta. It sounds like it would be too easy to clear the mines like that.
Still more halucinations less forcefields I guess its a good trade.
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On June 09 2012 18:52 Miotonir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). Thanks for testing this stuff out! Also thanks. So it's like a spell I guess. Instant mines. That's interesting! Sacrificing is interesting too. I guess if you look at it, 100 mineral zealot for 75 min 25 gas isn't so bad. Of course though, it would take time since you have to warp them in then run them there, so that would give terran lots of time. Hm hallucinated phoenix, yes that sounds very effective. If it works, maybe they overlooked it like many things in WoL beta. It sounds like it would be too easy to clear the mines like that. Still more halucinations less forcefields I guess its a good trade.
Hm I didn't think of it like that. And it would actually take precision and quick speed to effectively hallucinate 1 phoenix and run it all over to check the map for mines (aka slow him down again :D).
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On June 09 2012 18:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:52 Miotonir wrote:On June 09 2012 18:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). Thanks for testing this stuff out! Also thanks. So it's like a spell I guess. Instant mines. That's interesting! Sacrificing is interesting too. I guess if you look at it, 100 mineral zealot for 75 min 25 gas isn't so bad. Of course though, it would take time since you have to warp them in then run them there, so that would give terran lots of time. Hm hallucinated phoenix, yes that sounds very effective. If it works, maybe they overlooked it like many things in WoL beta. It sounds like it would be too easy to clear the mines like that. Still more halucinations less forcefields I guess its a good trade. Hm I didn't think of it like that. And it would actually take precision and quick speed to effectively hallucinate 1 phoenix and run it all over to check the map for mines (aka slow him down again :D).
A briliant point I think the mine will be very interesting in TvP PvT early game you can put down halucination of lets say immortals or zelots and lead attack with them, Very curious to see how mech will do in hots TvP.
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On June 09 2012 19:00 Miotonir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 18:52 Miotonir wrote:On June 09 2012 18:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). Thanks for testing this stuff out! Also thanks. So it's like a spell I guess. Instant mines. That's interesting! Sacrificing is interesting too. I guess if you look at it, 100 mineral zealot for 75 min 25 gas isn't so bad. Of course though, it would take time since you have to warp them in then run them there, so that would give terran lots of time. Hm hallucinated phoenix, yes that sounds very effective. If it works, maybe they overlooked it like many things in WoL beta. It sounds like it would be too easy to clear the mines like that. Still more halucinations less forcefields I guess its a good trade. Hm I didn't think of it like that. And it would actually take precision and quick speed to effectively hallucinate 1 phoenix and run it all over to check the map for mines (aka slow him down again :D). A briliant point  I think the mine will be very interesting in TvP PvT early game  you can put down halucination of lets say immortals or zelots and lead attack with them, Very curious to see how mech will do in hots TvP.
For that matter regular immortals could soak the mine with their shields. Still have to worry about the splash damage though.
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On June 09 2012 19:02 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:00 Miotonir wrote:On June 09 2012 18:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 18:52 Miotonir wrote:On June 09 2012 18:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). Thanks for testing this stuff out! Also thanks. So it's like a spell I guess. Instant mines. That's interesting! Sacrificing is interesting too. I guess if you look at it, 100 mineral zealot for 75 min 25 gas isn't so bad. Of course though, it would take time since you have to warp them in then run them there, so that would give terran lots of time. Hm hallucinated phoenix, yes that sounds very effective. If it works, maybe they overlooked it like many things in WoL beta. It sounds like it would be too easy to clear the mines like that. Still more halucinations less forcefields I guess its a good trade. Hm I didn't think of it like that. And it would actually take precision and quick speed to effectively hallucinate 1 phoenix and run it all over to check the map for mines (aka slow him down again :D). A briliant point  I think the mine will be very interesting in TvP PvT early game  you can put down halucination of lets say immortals or zelots and lead attack with them, Very curious to see how mech will do in hots TvP. For that matter regular immortals could soak the mine with their shields. Still have to worry about the splash damage though.
Im not a protoss and dont know how protoss really works, but do you always lead your attack with immortals?;p
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On June 09 2012 19:04 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:33 Evangelist wrote:On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless. Yeah but the point is you build these things with reactors so basically open reactor hellion, build 6 hellions for early map control and then the moment you see roaches/lings/baneling, put down a few widow mines and build ONE viking to deal with said overseer and the zerg just can't bust you without losing their entire army Pretty awesome tbh. You can see which units have mines attached, right? Split them out from your main army and you'll only lose a single unit. Or just attack anyway, kill the Terran base, make yourself some coffee, go for a jog, drink the coffee, and then lose a few of the leftover units
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reapers range 7 ? back to kiting roaches and queens it seems i like it. Missing speed upgrade sucks though. But i guess with range 7 speedlings aren't to much of a problem to reapers. And they could kite stalkers with speed lol.
About the widow mine, poor noobs, people will probably run these things into mineral lines and then boom without a warning unless you checked the minimap. Other then what was said about it never doing splash to a pro, it will probably hit hard when it comes unexpected. Like baneling bombs on the eco.
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I just tought, what happens when a unit with a widow mine in it dies? Does the mine explode or not?
If not then its pretty useless as 40 zerglings could just run by a mine field, then the ones in the front get the mine attached, and as they are front they get killed first.
Well actually if there are 10 widow mines, you can just run 10 zerglings in their range, and you just killed 750/250 worth of units for 250/0 worth of units. Widow mines are like more expensive banelings, exept they auto explode always, but they do more damage.
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On June 09 2012 17:52 SpecFire wrote: Thank you! very helpful
also, wtf, Warhound only 150/75? seems cheap.
very cheap,and the auto-cast attack vs mechanical units at range 7 seems a bit too much to me...and i play terran
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On June 09 2012 19:04 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:33 Evangelist wrote:On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless. Yeah but the point is you build these things with reactors so basically open reactor hellion, build 6 hellions for early map control and then the moment you see roaches/lings/baneling, put down a few widow mines and build ONE viking to deal with said overseer and the zerg just can't bust you without losing their entire army Pretty awesome tbh. You can see which units have mines attached, right? Split them out from your main army and you'll only lose a single unit.
Roach costs 75 25 so it would be equal trade if they get attached to roaches with a chance to do some splash. Then again ling is 25 minerals xD I want to see that individual ling micro xD that'll be awsome xD more micro thats a good thing
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I think that if they add friendly splash to the mines, they should reduce the detonation time by 2-3 seconds. 10 seconds is a lot of time to move your sacrificial unit into the enemy army, or into the scv line if the terran has defensive mines close to an expo. But I actually really want them to add friendly splash, because it'd probably make for a lot of fun situations for spectators - like mine drags in BW
I wonder if mines will attach to observers if the observers are detected.. I guess that's extremely situational though
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On June 09 2012 19:12 Quotidian wrote: I think that if they add friendly splash to the mines, they should reduce the detonation time by 2-3 seconds. 10 seconds is a lot of time to move your sacrificial unit into the enemy army, or into the scv line if the terran has defensive mines close to an expo. But I actually really want them to add friendly splash, because it'd probably make for a lot of fun situations for spectators - like mine drags in BW
I wonder if mines will attach to observers if the observers are detected.. I guess that's extremely situational though
Im not sure if I read correctly but they attach to cloacked and flying?
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On June 09 2012 19:12 Quotidian wrote: I wonder if mines will attach to observers if the observers are detected.. I guess that's extremely situational though
The mines will attach to any cloaked unit in range, even if the player does not have vision. I discovered this specifically by a protoss running an observer over one of my mines
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The mine xD soo interesting xD I hate it already and love it at the same time xD
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Awesome thanks! Man that warhound look so much like a dreadnaught from WH40K
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I wonder if they would attach to non-transformed changelings.
Thàt will be pretty funny.
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Kinda funny. A while back, I was just randomly brainstorming random unit ideas, and the exact idea for the Widow Mine popped into my head. A mine that attaches itself to a unit, then explodes after a given time, which allows for some micro to minimize damage. I didn't think much of it, but it's pretty funny to see it fully realized.
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On June 09 2012 19:20 AdrianHealey wrote: I wonder if they would attach to non-transformed changelings.
Thàt will be pretty funny.
Lol xD Overseer can toss changgelings now.... throw changelings at the mines xD???????LOOOL
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Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT?
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On June 09 2012 19:23 Bagi wrote: Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT? Tanks and Marauders and Bunkers? Without the D8 charge, static defenses become much better against HotS Reapers.
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Still no TvP battle report?
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Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server.
Locushost looks promising considering it doesn't require that many gaz.
Viper abduct combines horrible balance (killing high tier unit for free) with horrible game-design (negating any form of defensive positionning), hope this will get out.
Tempest ridiculous dps and cost (300 gaz) means we will never see it.
Oracle costs too many gaz as well. Protoss would be better with new gaz-free units rather than gaz-intensive unit which quite frankly aren't better than the current Phoenix/HT/Colossi gaz sink.
I hope Blizzard will buff new units accordingly rather than nerf the old ones.
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On June 09 2012 19:16 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:12 Quotidian wrote: I wonder if mines will attach to observers if the observers are detected.. I guess that's extremely situational though
The mines will attach to any cloaked unit in range, even if the player does not have vision. I discovered this specifically by a protoss running an observer over one of my mines 
holy crap
guess that means you can kind of go for a pure mech opening without ebay in tvt and be relatively safe vs banshees.. or it might just be a bug/oversight
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Oracle looks insanely fun to play with and could be really powerful. the 2 mins vision is crazy good, only problem I have with it is that the cost is quite high since you have to go stargate then go oracle. but it looks extremely good, super scary when you use it to help your deathball out too
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On June 09 2012 19:26 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:23 Bagi wrote: Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT? Tanks and Marauders and Bunkers? Without the D8 charge, static defenses become much better against HotS Reapers. Marauders and bunkers only have 6 range though. 
I guess it would work anyway, the new reapers aren't that fast. But if they stay 7 range, pure marine openers will simply not be viable.
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On June 09 2012 19:28 ETisME wrote: Oracle looks insanely fun to play with and could be really powerful. the 2 mins vision is crazy good, only problem I have with it is that the cost is quite high since you have to go stargate then go oracle. but it looks extremely good, super scary when you use it to help your deathball out too
Yeah, your deathball that will get widow mined and abducted to hell.
Protoss will have to have a much different playstyle in HotS and that's a very, very good thing. But the units they've been given fit with that and I think are pretty awesome. The Tempest needs a bit of work but the concept is cool in that it relies heavily on micro and the vision given by other units to maximize effectiveness.
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On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote: Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server.
That's not the only purpose of the unit. If you are able to trade more expensive units like mutas (100/100/2) for the cost of a mine (75/25/1), its gonna be worth it every time. Just don't waste your mines on zerglings.
Forcing your opponent to micro his units to prevent splash is just icing on the cake really.
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On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote: Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server.
200 guaranteed damage + splash for 75 minerals doesn't seem like a "terrible mineral sink" to me.. one shots banshees, tanks,
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All of this seems so imba Can't help it but fear for the qality of HotS. Also Terrans are pretty much fucked
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On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote: Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server.
well, one mine. try getting out 10 mines out of your army in 10 seconds. you miss one mine, the whole army is dead. btw the 10 sec like any other stat isnt fix and there will be a lot of changes and patches.
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On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote: Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? I guess internal testers are terrible, as was showcased by the battle reports, and we once again will have to bear 3-4 months of total imbalance after HOTS release. Well, the Widow Mines trade pretty well against most units in the game. Once it attaches to a unit, at least the attached unit is guaranteed to die most of the time.
In a TvT, what exactly is cheaper than a Widow Mine? Marines and SCVs? Reapers might also be cheaper in minerals, but not in gas. In a TvZ, Drones and Zerglings? Though Roaches are of equal cost. In a TvP, perhaps only Probes? Though one could argue Zealots gas-wise or Sentries mineral-wise.
If it manages to attach to a unit, it will most likely be very cost-efficient even if it kills only one unit, assuming that unit isn't a worker or a basic combat unit.
Of course, a well-placed scan or well-placed detectors could nullify a lot of its damage.
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On June 09 2012 19:33 CruelZeratul wrote:All of this seems so imba  Can't help it but fear for the qality of HotS. If everything is imba, doesn't it all equalize? Why do you think this will affect the quality?
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Thanks! One error: Afaik the Mothership doesn't cloak units anymore. (OP says it is the same.)
About the tempest: I remember it was first introduced as an anti air splash damage dealer to counter mass muta. Is this anti air splash attack completely gone? Does anyone know?
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Yes, it is gone, since you're supposed to use upgraded phoenixes vs muta now
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I also wonder how Immortal hardened shields react against Warhounds and Widow Mines.
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On June 09 2012 19:30 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:26 eviltomahawk wrote:On June 09 2012 19:23 Bagi wrote: Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT? Tanks and Marauders and Bunkers? Without the D8 charge, static defenses become much better against HotS Reapers. Marauders and bunkers only have 6 range though.  I guess it would work anyway, the new reapers aren't that fast. But if they stay 7 range, pure marine openers will simply not be viable.
A Marauder in a Bunker has 7 range Getting a Marauder or two with CS could become a popular follow up to FE builds in TvT or maybe even a resurgence in Marauder/Reaper expands.
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Are all the attack stats the same for the ultralisks? Because I remember in one of the previous HoTS builds that ultralisks has a damage bonus v light instead of the current v armoured bonus.
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On June 09 2012 19:32 saltygrapes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:28 ETisME wrote: Oracle looks insanely fun to play with and could be really powerful. the 2 mins vision is crazy good, only problem I have with it is that the cost is quite high since you have to go stargate then go oracle. but it looks extremely good, super scary when you use it to help your deathball out too Yeah, your deathball that will get widow mined and abducted to hell. Protoss will have to have a much different playstyle in HotS and that's a very, very good thing. But the units they've been given fit with that and I think are pretty awesome. The Tempest needs a bit of work but the concept is cool in that it relies heavily on micro and the vision given by other units to maximize effectiveness. I can see a lot of cool fighting over position between toss army and viper's abduction
but yea, that widow mine is kind of scary to be honest, I don't even know what to do since I play Z, I can't micro a ling out all the time from my 100+ lings lol
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Yeah, your deathball that will get widow mined and abducted to hell.
So your Colossi in the middle auf your R6 Stalker ball will get abducted by a R7 spell from a 120 HP armored unit? I highly doubt that.
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On June 09 2012 19:41 eviltomahawk wrote: I also wonder how Immortal hardened shields react against Warhounds and Widow Mines.
my guess is it reacts...
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I read that if u kill the unit with the widow mine on it, the mine doesnt go off, so no splash damage. I dont mind the 10sec timer because of the 6 range,sometimes its not gonna be 1 mine for ur whole army. U might have 6 or 7 (or even 3-4) attached to ur army then i really do think u need the 10secs to not take SPLASH damage or either kill ur unit or move it away. All this time ur doing this ur probaby not moving ur whole army (u moved out to attack them, the mines delay u, and kill some of ur army, so ur attacking with a weaker more delayed army) giving time to the other player to maybe re-position his army (maybe tanks cause ur making factories or something?) So i guess the time is fine fits the purpose. Also the attach is instant so if the timer was 3 secs, and u get 5 on ur army 0_o damn! lets say u move 3 out thats still 5 dead units and u took splash from 2 of them. 10-9 sec seems about right but thats just my opinion. Need to see pros play! =)
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On June 09 2012 19:41 Akinokaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:30 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2012 19:26 eviltomahawk wrote:On June 09 2012 19:23 Bagi wrote: Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT? Tanks and Marauders and Bunkers? Without the D8 charge, static defenses become much better against HotS Reapers. Marauders and bunkers only have 6 range though.  I guess it would work anyway, the new reapers aren't that fast. But if they stay 7 range, pure marine openers will simply not be viable. A Marauder in a Bunker has 7 range  Getting a Marauder or two with CS could become a popular follow up to FE builds in TvT or maybe even a resurgence in Marauder/Reaper expands. I'm pretty sure a marauder in a bunker still only has 6 range.
Marines gain 1 range when in bunkers (5->6) simply because they need it to defend against stalkers and marauders.
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Whats the splash on the widow mine?
On June 09 2012 19:41 eviltomahawk wrote: I also wonder how Immortal hardened shields react against Warhounds and Widow Mines.
Ye me too. Pretty sure the mine will do full damage.
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this game is looking good. But TvZ looks like Terran will have a hard time, battle hellions will be good against lings but if terrans go mech, roach/hydra/viper will be the go to composition. If terran goes for marine/tank/medivac, I think ling/viper/bane will be the go to composition with a few hydras/mutas/corrutpers to kill the medivacs. Yeah I'm worried that terran will suck against Zerg, even with spider-mines because they take too long to detonate.
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On June 09 2012 19:46 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:41 Akinokaze wrote:On June 09 2012 19:30 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2012 19:26 eviltomahawk wrote:On June 09 2012 19:23 Bagi wrote: Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT? Tanks and Marauders and Bunkers? Without the D8 charge, static defenses become much better against HotS Reapers. Marauders and bunkers only have 6 range though.  I guess it would work anyway, the new reapers aren't that fast. But if they stay 7 range, pure marine openers will simply not be viable. A Marauder in a Bunker has 7 range  Getting a Marauder or two with CS could become a popular follow up to FE builds in TvT or maybe even a resurgence in Marauder/Reaper expands. I'm pretty sure a marauder in a bunker still only has 6 range. Marines gain 1 range when in bunkers (5->6) simply because they need it to defend against stalkers and marauders.
Marauders in bunkers have 7 range. Everything gets +1 range. I play Terran.
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man i don't know but i love how the swarm host looks like....sooo fucking cute :D
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On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server.
Lolwut, you need to be diamond in korea to be able to click on one unit and send it away within 10 seconds? How retarded do you think the majority of players are??
The problem is that you are judging the utility of the unit based on an ideal scenario where for example you march 20 marines across the map and nothing else is going on. In this case it's obviously very easy to isolate the ones that catch mines. But this is not the only scenario that could happen. If a player opens (cloaked) banshee, for example, you could place mines in your own base and restrict the banshees' movement or even kill them without even scanning. In multitasking heavy situations seperating the units might not be so easy. At least it will increase the pressure on your opponent. They could also latch on to tanks which is worth it even when the splash does nothing. Out on the map, they would also be of use telling you when the opponent moves out even if they don't kill a lot. And so on and on. Everything can be countered. Doesn't mean everything is useless.
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On June 09 2012 19:48 emc wrote: this game is looking good. But TvZ looks like Terran will have a hard time, battle hellions will be good against lings but if terrans go mech, roach/hydra/viper will be the go to composition. If terran goes for marine/tank/medivac, I think ling/viper/bane will be the go to composition with a few hydras/mutas/corrutpers to kill the medivacs. Yeah I'm worried that terran will suck against Zerg, even with spider-mines because they take too long to detonate.
Edit:woops have to start reading properly
hydras suck against blu flame and roaches suck agains mines you lead with roaches go into mine field bam , then comes in the battle helion, good bye hydras ... but thats just purely speculation
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On June 09 2012 19:39 Alexj wrote: Yes, it is gone, since you're supposed to use upgraded phoenixes vs muta now
Thanks. IMO the tempest looks pretty boring then, but we'll see.
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On June 09 2012 19:50 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:46 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2012 19:41 Akinokaze wrote:On June 09 2012 19:30 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2012 19:26 eviltomahawk wrote:On June 09 2012 19:23 Bagi wrote: Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT? Tanks and Marauders and Bunkers? Without the D8 charge, static defenses become much better against HotS Reapers. Marauders and bunkers only have 6 range though.  I guess it would work anyway, the new reapers aren't that fast. But if they stay 7 range, pure marine openers will simply not be viable. A Marauder in a Bunker has 7 range  Getting a Marauder or two with CS could become a popular follow up to FE builds in TvT or maybe even a resurgence in Marauder/Reaper expands. I'm pretty sure a marauder in a bunker still only has 6 range. Marines gain 1 range when in bunkers (5->6) simply because they need it to defend against stalkers and marauders. Marauders in bunkers have 7 range. Everything gets +1 range. I play Terran. Even the Reapers will now that I think about it...
On June 09 2012 19:34 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote: Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server.
well, one mine. try getting out 10 mines out of your army in 10 seconds. you miss one mine, the whole army is dead. btw the 10 sec like any other stat isnt fix and there will be a lot of changes and patches. I don't think dealing with groups of Widow Mines will actually be that hard, but it does force a higher level of multitasking. People will basically need to keep a small portion of their T1 army in a separate control group as a vanguard and keep it in front of their army at all times.
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If widow mines are too cost efficient I wonder if it would be interesting to give the mines stupid ai sort of like spider mines. Sc2 could do with some dud brained units.
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On June 09 2012 19:48 emc wrote: this game is looking good. But TvZ looks like Terran will have a hard time, battle hellions will be good against lings but if terrans go mech, roach/hydra/viper will be the go to composition. If terran goes for marine/tank/medivac, I think ling/viper/bane will be the go to composition with a few hydras/mutas/corrutpers to kill the medivacs. Yeah I'm worried that terran will suck against Zerg, even with spider-mines because they take too long to detonate.
How will hydras be suddenly "viable" when they just added a speed upgrade? The Hydra still melts against tanks, the Hydra still gets obliterated by Hellions. HP, Range and Cost haven't changed. The Speed just lets you suddenly reinforce with Hydra which you could not before unless you used a Nydus. And I dont see why I want an expensive 3 Supply unit against mech. Blinding Cloud doesnt work on mech at all and Abduction is hugely outranged by Thors (which are still in this build) and Vikings.
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well swarm host are a good answer to those mines i feel
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On June 09 2012 20:02 Arush wrote:well swarm host are a good answer to those mines i feel 
dude have you watched the battle report?xD haha i know it is a showcase xD but xD just watch it... xD
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Ok so i need to ask because you didnt see it anywhere in the thread...
Is the widdow mine damage affecting friendly units??? cause at the moment only abuse is comming to my mind that a defense based mine in front or behind my bunkers are picked up by a zealot or some other unit with a bit of survivability and ran straight into my own mineral line and kabooom....
If so also lategame defence is useless, because why would i put spider mines at my 4th 5th 6th if a guy sends 1 ling or zealot picks up the mine and straight to the mineral line...please check this out...its very important as you can imagine...
Also the timer (10sec) dunno , maybe if you only had detection to spot which unit has it or something, if you have a clock timer on a unit its pretty much useless. A 20 apm player can remove it from he's army in time...just looks like a big gimmick.
Another thing is the protoss tempest range...the longest range ingame was the siege tank which took time to siege up (immobile) and even then needed a spoter to get full potential out...
The tempest has mobility, spotting (it flies) does not need to setup to fire shoots air and ground...considering it has a regular type deathball that you can't attack into beneath it how do you fight this ????
EDIT: also nice thread, really apreciate you putting so much effort into showing everyone the new units and they're stats
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On June 09 2012 20:02 Arush wrote:well swarm host are a good answer to those mines i feel 
maybe even overseers as "create changeling" is now siege range and the changeling is targetet by units when/before morphing
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On June 09 2012 19:36 kochujang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:33 CruelZeratul wrote:All of this seems so imba  Can't help it but fear for the qality of HotS. If everything is imba, doesn't it all equalize? Why do you think this will affect the quality?
Because it gets much harder to balance and Terran seems to be lacking. P and Z get so much anti Tank stuff but Terran only getd the Widow mine which seems super hard to balance anyway (i.e. could get nerfed hard).
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On June 09 2012 20:06 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:36 kochujang wrote:On June 09 2012 19:33 CruelZeratul wrote:All of this seems so imba  Can't help it but fear for the qality of HotS. If everything is imba, doesn't it all equalize? Why do you think this will affect the quality? Because it gets much harder to balance and Terran seems to be lacking. P and Z get so much anti Tank stuff but Terran only getd the Widow mine which seems super hard to balance anyway (i.e. could get nerfed hard).
I think it will get buffed with the cooldown time 10 seconds(pretty long for a mine) , but it is realatively low cost unit and low food unit. A roach is 75/25/2 the mines are in coparison same cost 1 food and have splash. I would say faster detonation time and 25 minerals higher cost? idk
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I CANT WAIT TO MAMAEXPAND!
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can someone explain why they added that "knock back" to the ultralisk when it unborrows? did blizzard really think that the charge move is so good that they gotta add this little setback? kuz lets be honest... spreading marines.. or anything at all vs zerg is not what zerg wants.. amirite?
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On June 09 2012 20:15 Cuce wrote: I CANT WAIT TO MAMAEXPAND!
Yo mama-ship so fat , that she cant leave the base?xDDDD
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On June 09 2012 19:23 Bagi wrote: Wow, really didn't look in the battle report that reapers had 7 range. Must have been an older build they played there.
That's a pretty big change, and could very well turn them into the best early game harass option. They already kill lings like nothing, now they greatly outrange queens/roaches and can quickly heal any hits caused by slight mismicro.
How the hell am I supposed to deal with 7 range reapers in a TvT?
I really like the reaper potential in TvZ, if you can outrange the queen. Before, you would open reactor hellions and try to bbq in the mineral line. And unless you hit hard on the Z's eco, you reach a point where you're done with the drones harass and focus on tech/macro while trying to deny creep.
Now with the regeneration upgrade, reapers become hit and run units and reward good multitasking. The zerg will know that if some reapers managed to survive after the first harass attempt, they'll be back 10-15 seconds later for a new try.
By the way I wonder if the WMines deny the creep spread ? o.o
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btw you do realize, widow mines are accuale units. so I guess you can choose what they will attach too. I mean, you can hold position lurker them till they can attack sentries, instead of zealots, which will stop any early game warpgate push on its tracks.
Those fellas can kill any toss unit, aside from archon/immortal(I wonder if they will chew through hardened shields like yomato cannon..)/carrier/colosus/ and voidray.
If you look at the unit situation by situation its priceless. example.
voidray all in? just add 2-3 widow mines to marine bunker defense. gateway push? just like before pick off couple sentries. a gateway push loses its power exponentially and permanently as they lose their sentries. tvt early tank push, cloak banshee? well minem up.
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I like the Oracle and it's abilities, but it needs to have the cloaking field to be an upgrade that requires a Fleet Beacon to research. Far to powerful in the early game against Zerg given the lack of detection.
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The warhound has no anti-mech attack bust?
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So whats the HP of the mines?
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can you try to see what will happen if you lift up the units that were attached by the mines into a medivac or overlord?
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On June 09 2012 20:43 Letall wrote: So whats the HP of the mines? 55 hp
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Does anybody know if the corruptor still has that building chewing ability? Can anybody at MLG check that?
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On June 09 2012 20:44 ETisME wrote: can you try to see what will happen if you lift up the units that were attached by the mines into a medivac or overlord?
I can see boxer landing his mined viking down on mineral line to kill 10 workers...
MIN'EM UP!!
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I love it, thanks for posting!
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How do you guys know what is the DPS of tempest? OP only offered information about the damage, but not the attack speed.
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On June 09 2012 20:16 SpaceFighting wrote: can someone explain why they added that "knock back" to the ultralisk when it unborrows? did blizzard really think that the charge move is so good that they gotta add this little setback? kuz lets be honest... spreading marines.. or anything at all vs zerg is not what zerg wants.. amirite?
It damages during the 'knock back', so I would say it is a buff, more than a nerf?
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On June 09 2012 20:59 Mongolbonjwa wrote: How do you guys know what is the DPS of tempest? OP only offered information about the damage, but not the attack speed.
The attack speed is shown in the vods and is pretty slow.
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On June 09 2012 20:54 Cuce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 20:44 ETisME wrote: can you try to see what will happen if you lift up the units that were attached by the mines into a medivac or overlord? I can see boxer landing his mined viking down on mineral line to kill 10 workers... MIN'EM UP!!
so far it doesn't have friendly fire I guess (like banelings)
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On June 09 2012 21:01 AdrianHealey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 20:59 Mongolbonjwa wrote: How do you guys know what is the DPS of tempest? OP only offered information about the damage, but not the attack speed. The attack speed is shown in the vods and is pretty slow. It's 6 seconds between each shot.
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On June 09 2012 21:03 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:01 AdrianHealey wrote:On June 09 2012 20:59 Mongolbonjwa wrote: How do you guys know what is the DPS of tempest? OP only offered information about the damage, but not the attack speed. The attack speed is shown in the vods and is pretty slow. It's 6 seconds between each shot. Provide me url for that
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On June 09 2012 21:02 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 20:54 Cuce wrote:On June 09 2012 20:44 ETisME wrote: can you try to see what will happen if you lift up the units that were attached by the mines into a medivac or overlord? I can see boxer landing his mined viking down on mineral line to kill 10 workers... MIN'EM UP!! so far it doesn't have friendly fire I guess (like banelings)
but u can detonate your own baneling on your own unit if done manualy.right?
lol put a mine onto a marine , load it into medivac... you have a whole new harasment unit xD bombing the shit out of zergs xD
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If tempest attack speed is one attack per 6 seconds, and makes 49 base damage. Then dps of the tempest is 8,16
Roach has base dps of 8
So those people who claim that tempest dps is lower or same of the roach, are wrong.
Tempest has more dps than roach, period.
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TBH I don't like the direction this is going... I hope they adjust units and abilities again since I won't buy this garbage if it will be released some kind like this... No whine, just my opinion!
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On June 09 2012 21:05 Miotonir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:02 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On June 09 2012 20:54 Cuce wrote:On June 09 2012 20:44 ETisME wrote: can you try to see what will happen if you lift up the units that were attached by the mines into a medivac or overlord? I can see boxer landing his mined viking down on mineral line to kill 10 workers... MIN'EM UP!! so far it doesn't have friendly fire I guess (like banelings) but u can detonate your own baneling on your own unit if done manualy.right? lol put a mine onto a marine , load it into medivac... you have a whole new harasment unit xD bombing the shit out of zergs xD
When terran goes al-qaida :D Imagine attaching a WM to your hellion and going straight for the wall-off in a TvT xDDDD
edit : wonder if splash affect buildings.
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So if a marine has a mine on them and it goes inside a medivac, the medivac blows up from the inside? :O
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On June 09 2012 21:11 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:05 Miotonir wrote:On June 09 2012 21:02 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On June 09 2012 20:54 Cuce wrote:On June 09 2012 20:44 ETisME wrote: can you try to see what will happen if you lift up the units that were attached by the mines into a medivac or overlord? I can see boxer landing his mined viking down on mineral line to kill 10 workers... MIN'EM UP!! so far it doesn't have friendly fire I guess (like banelings) but u can detonate your own baneling on your own unit if done manualy.right? lol put a mine onto a marine , load it into medivac... you have a whole new harasment unit xD bombing the shit out of zergs xD When terran goes al-qaida :D Imagine attaching a WM to your hellion and going straight for the wall-off in a TvT xDDDD
Long LIve Jimmy!!!! Boom!
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On June 09 2012 21:04 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:03 ZenithM wrote:On June 09 2012 21:01 AdrianHealey wrote:On June 09 2012 20:59 Mongolbonjwa wrote: How do you guys know what is the DPS of tempest? OP only offered information about the damage, but not the attack speed. The attack speed is shown in the vods and is pretty slow. It's 6 seconds between each shot. Provide me url for that http://sclegacy.com/
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Does Warhound's Haywire affect ALL units or only Mechanical units?
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another note: swarm host has an insane 14 range
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Tempest has more dps than roach. Why did people claim that roach would do more dps?
Tempest base dps is 8,16 while roach base dps is 8
8,16 > 8
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I'm really sad they kept the thor, now we have 3 units (the marauder, the warhound, the thor) that are 2-legs walking armored thingy good VS armored and coming out of a techlab... Thor anti-air is so bad it's almost as useless as their cannons, where is my GtA that benefits from mech upgrades ?
I really wish they had reworked the ground viking or introduced the goliath.
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On June 09 2012 19:53 FrogOfWar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote:Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server. Lolwut, you need to be diamond in korea to be able to click on one unit and send it away within 10 seconds? How retarded do you think the majority of players are?? The problem is that you are judging the utility of the unit based on an ideal scenario where for example you march 20 marines across the map and nothing else is going on. In this case it's obviously very easy to isolate the ones that catch mines. But this is not the only scenario that could happen. If a player opens (cloaked) banshee, for example, you could place mines in your own base and restrict the banshees' movement or even kill them without even scanning. In multitasking heavy situations seperating the units might not be so easy. At least it will increase the pressure on your opponent. They could also latch on to tanks which is worth it even when the splash does nothing. Out on the map, they would also be of use telling you when the opponent moves out even if they don't kill a lot. And so on and on. Everything can be countered. Doesn't mean everything is useless.
lol use mine to defend agains tcloak banshee, thikn ur a boss. Opponent moves banshee over your scvs. Lose all scvs. O_O
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temepest also does 66 vs massive, so 11 dps
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On June 09 2012 21:23 ma5ta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:53 FrogOfWar wrote:On June 09 2012 19:27 SiroKO wrote:Widow mine: 75 minerals 25 gaz. There is a 10 second delay between attachment and detonation. Even taking aside progamer, is there a single chance any master league terran player will invest into such a terrible mineral sink ? 10 seconds ? Are you kidding me ? Dustin browder expects progamer to separate the unit targeted, but with a 10 second delay, I expect any master league player to do it and even the diamond player on the Korean server. Lolwut, you need to be diamond in korea to be able to click on one unit and send it away within 10 seconds? How retarded do you think the majority of players are?? The problem is that you are judging the utility of the unit based on an ideal scenario where for example you march 20 marines across the map and nothing else is going on. In this case it's obviously very easy to isolate the ones that catch mines. But this is not the only scenario that could happen. If a player opens (cloaked) banshee, for example, you could place mines in your own base and restrict the banshees' movement or even kill them without even scanning. In multitasking heavy situations seperating the units might not be so easy. At least it will increase the pressure on your opponent. They could also latch on to tanks which is worth it even when the splash does nothing. Out on the map, they would also be of use telling you when the opponent moves out even if they don't kill a lot. And so on and on. Everything can be countered. Doesn't mean everything is useless. lol use mine to defend agains tcloak banshee, thikn ur a boss. Opponent moves banshee over your scvs. Lose all scvs. O_O no friendly fire dude
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On June 09 2012 21:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Tempest has more dps than roach. Why did people claim that roach would do more dps?
Tempest base dps is 8,16 while roach base dps is 8
8,16 > 8 It's a figure of speech bro. Like when we say that stalker's DPS are lower than SCV's.
Anyway, the true DPS we should be talking about is DPS per cost. There goes your answer. Roach have more of these.
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Still don't like the overall direction they are going with this. Terran units look extremely boring except for the mine. Warhound and battlehellion are just bland mech units to make mech a suitable strategy overall, without warhound ground to air mech still seems to have some huge problems vs zerg at least. Mines look really cool though and even combine with bio so you don't have the useless factory anymore.
Zerg viper looks awesome and probably helps with the engagement problem zerg has. Ultralisk chance seems a bit silly and I don't like the siege unit depending on locusts, i don't think it will help break walls with units behind it at all like that without overbuffing the locusts for some other scenario's.
P changes i like the least. Defensive/energy thing looks alright but that's it. Oracle still looks like a stupid unit which though fun to harass still requires a stargate which is not always a good move. I would have much rather seen them put harass options on other techs which lack reliable harass still. It is nice to see some detection on stargate though which makes it quite a good tech for PvP where DT were one of the vulnerabilities. Tempest is ok as it suits a role at least the carrier doesn't of some effective siege and if the AoE against air is good it's not just countered by the same units as colossi. There is always a danger colossi + tempest becomes too good but I think they can manage that
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On June 09 2012 21:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Tempest has more dps than roach. Why did people claim that roach would do more dps?
Tempest base dps is 8,16 while roach base dps is 8
8,16 > 8 Well, actually there seems to be a confusion on what the damage dealt by the tempest is. While the OP states the damage is 49, another source, sclegacy, states it is 45. Buts honestly nothing important to post several times about.
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On June 09 2012 21:22 NormandyBoy wrote: I'm really sad they kept the thor, now we have 3 units (the marauder, the warhound, the thor) that are 2-legs walking armored thingy good VS armored and coming out of a techlab... Thor anti-air is so bad it's almost as useless as their cannons, where is my GtA that benefits from mech upgrades ?
I really wish they had reworked the ground viking or introduced the goliath.
Why would Terran in SC2 need Goliath? Goliath's damage vs ground is bad. Thor anti-air is not that bad too except against Carrier,BC,BL.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I like everything bar the warhound. Mech doesn't need a ground attack unit, they've got the fucking tank. Whats the point of an A move 2 legged walker? It's a Thor without it's interest anti air mechanic, or a Marauder, without stim. WTF? I love the mine, and pretty mech everything else, but I really don't understand the point of the warhound, bar just "Make factory good vs Toss".
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btw are thors faster now? they seemed faster in the battle report..
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Does tempest do splash damage? if yes, then tempest is very good unit
49 splash damage is good
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On June 09 2012 21:41 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Does tempest do splash damage? if yes, then tempest is very good unit
49 splash damage is good No it dosent, that would be broken as hell with 22 range. I still dont get why it has such a massive range, going to be very difficult to kill them off despite their low dps. Hopefully they will be reduced in range abit so it is easier to kill them off
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what about battlecruisers? I'm switching to terran in HotS so I need to know . Do they have charge ?
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On June 09 2012 21:51 entrust wrote:what about battlecruisers? I'm switching to terran in HotS so I need to know  . Do they have charge ?
New ability to double speed for 6 seconds. Costs 100 energy.
At the very least, it's an energy dump so they can't get Feedbacked.
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I haven't read everything in here but, does the oracle's cloacking field need any upgrade ? This kinda looks like an Arbitrer from BW but T2 instead of T3 :/ Imagine any 6gate push with 1 or 2 oracle cloaking everything, that would be super strong !
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Question: what type of damage do mines do? regular with attack plus versus certain types of units, or spellcaster? I am simply curious as to if it activates the immortals hardened shields.
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On June 09 2012 22:01 omgimonfire15 wrote: Question: what type of damage do mines do? regular with attack plus versus certain types of units, or spellcaster? I am simply curious as to if it activates the immortals hardened shields.
200 damage against everything. Not sure about Immortal shield though.
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No one knows how it'll react with immortal's shields, but I guess it'll go through like the Yama cannon. I guess the mines ignore armor like others AoE spell.
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The Ultralisk charge look so ugly why not have it look like a normal charge but with the same effects?
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On June 09 2012 21:30 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:22 NormandyBoy wrote: I'm really sad they kept the thor, now we have 3 units (the marauder, the warhound, the thor) that are 2-legs walking armored thingy good VS armored and coming out of a techlab... Thor anti-air is so bad it's almost as useless as their cannons, where is my GtA that benefits from mech upgrades ?
I really wish they had reworked the ground viking or introduced the goliath. Why would Terran in SC2 need Goliath? Goliath's damage vs ground is bad. Thor anti-air is not that bad too except against Carrier,BC,BL. "Goliath's damage vs ground IS bad." IS ? Because you have played with goliath in SC2 multiplayer ?
It may be bad if you just take BW numbers into SC2 but those can vary, the idea is to have a decent ground attack which is decent against everything (no huge overkill like thors on zerglings and no bonuses) and a good anti-air gathered in one (massable) unit. It is necessary because mech is supposed to be the strongest army on the ground, making air switches very strong against it. Of course right now we don't see air Toss in PvT and barely BCs in TvT but with mech being more viable in HotS... Obviously the viking is better on paper but I think it's just lame design to force air VS air battles. And Terran has the hardest time switching production, that's why even in pro play you see Z winning only because theirs BLs catched T by surprise. If no better anti-air is revealed before beta I foresee a lot of mech TvP losing to air switches, maybe even mech TvT because of better BCs...
And yes Thors anti-air is terrible cause it sucks VS everything you said, plus mutas except in direct engagement (but mutas are not made to engage directly anyway), Thors are too slow and big to stop muta harass, it seems they're making them smaller and faster in HotS though.
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Ok, I just wanted to say that I'm very pleasantly surprised by the changes Blizzard implemented. Nothing stands out as particularly retarded.
I especially like how they haven't tried to force the Thor out of the game (yet) because it would mean the Warhound would've had to be mediocre at both AG and AA.
Officially pumped for HotS 
PS.
I think it's important to know whether widow mines do friendly splash. In that case I wouldn't use them to protect my mineral line vs cloak banshee
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Can you use energize on the mothership core itself?
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On June 09 2012 22:11 Saechiis wrote:Ok, I just wanted to say that I'm very pleasantly surprised by the changes Blizzard implemented. Nothing stands out as particularly retarded. I especially like how they haven't tried to force the Thor out of the game (yet) because it would mean the Warhound would've had to be mediocre at both AG and AA. Officially pumped for HotS 
Instead the Warhound has been reduced to a boring Marauder-type unit that is completely useless vs Zerg or MMM.
I still wanna know if Warhound's missiles only affect Mech units or can be used vs anything.
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widow mine hit air too, don't forget this, its possibile to just make, tank, widow and BH, without any thor/warhound crap
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I don't like the fact that the mothership core costs supply
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On June 09 2012 22:19 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:11 Saechiis wrote:Ok, I just wanted to say that I'm very pleasantly surprised by the changes Blizzard implemented. Nothing stands out as particularly retarded. I especially like how they haven't tried to force the Thor out of the game (yet) because it would mean the Warhound would've had to be mediocre at both AG and AA. Officially pumped for HotS  Instead the Warhound has been reduced to a boring Marauder-type unit that is completely useless vs Zerg or MMM. I still wanna know if Warhound's missiles only affect Mech units or can be used vs anything.
I don't really know what's the point of Warhound? Isn't it just Thor with no anti-air attack?
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45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something.
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1) Can you kill the mines before it attachs to you? 2) Even if you got attached, if you use your own units to kill that attached unit by yourself, the mine doesn't explode right?
Those mine seems cheap now.
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Important Questions: 1) Can you Neural parasite a mothership core? (Can restore mana to your infestors, or mass recall your whole army INTO the protoss base!)
2) Edge case, if you neural a mothership core, can it teleport to one of your nexuses (assuming you've previously managed to build one) Where you can easily destroy it.
3)Does the immobile tag on mothership core prevent it from being moved by forcefields, abduct etc?
4)Is thre any indication your buildings have been pre-ordained from an oracle? Can you kill them to remove vision, or does it stick to the area?
5)Do changelings post or pre transformation trigger widow mines?
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On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something.
I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways.
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On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. If it's instant, it might be a decent way to burn energy against HT.
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On June 09 2012 20:32 Mr Showtime wrote: I like the Oracle and it's abilities, but it needs to have the cloaking field to be an upgrade that requires a Fleet Beacon to research. Far to powerful in the early game against Zerg given the lack of detection.
Its only a 60 second CD, and smaller radius then mothership. It also doesn't cloak so will be auto targetable by every AA unit you have when it comes in range. DT openers are quicker and perma cloaked. You shouldn't have too much of an issue. They kept overseer as is correct?
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I like how the mine is going to force micro from the other two races.
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On June 09 2012 22:30 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:19 HeroMystic wrote:On June 09 2012 22:11 Saechiis wrote:Ok, I just wanted to say that I'm very pleasantly surprised by the changes Blizzard implemented. Nothing stands out as particularly retarded. I especially like how they haven't tried to force the Thor out of the game (yet) because it would mean the Warhound would've had to be mediocre at both AG and AA. Officially pumped for HotS  Instead the Warhound has been reduced to a boring Marauder-type unit that is completely useless vs Zerg or MMM. I still wanna know if Warhound's missiles only affect Mech units or can be used vs anything. I don't really know what's the point of Warhound? Isn't it just Thor with no anti-air attack? The Thor is an all-around unit that can be applied to any situation due to it's high HP and strong DPS. The Anti-air is a little weak but it splashes and has incredible range. The only downside to the Thor is it's speed and large bulk.
The Warhound is a Mech-busting unit with decently high HP. They have auto-cast missiles that auto-targets mechanical units (still need to know if this can target biological units!) and a relatively low autoattack (23 damage with 1.3 Weapon speed).
If the missiles only target Mech units, I don't see the point of using them as Blizzard went overboard with it's specialization design. And yes there's no anti-air attack.
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On June 09 2012 21:32 MCDayC wrote: I like everything bar the warhound. Mech doesn't need a ground attack unit, they've got the fucking tank. Whats the point of an A move 2 legged walker? It's a Thor without it's interest anti air mechanic, or a Marauder, without stim. WTF? I love the mine, and pretty mech everything else, but I really don't understand the point of the warhound, bar just "Make factory good vs Toss".
That's as deeply as these guys think. They design units to do things as narrowly as possible. When things are used creatively they have a hissy fit.
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On June 09 2012 22:22 Anima4 wrote: I don't like the fact that the mothership core costs supply Well, it's kinda like a macro mechanics but with several defensive/offensive options. Queens cost supply as well.
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On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways.
Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position.
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On June 09 2012 22:44 SimDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:32 MCDayC wrote: I like everything bar the warhound. Mech doesn't need a ground attack unit, they've got the fucking tank. Whats the point of an A move 2 legged walker? It's a Thor without it's interest anti air mechanic, or a Marauder, without stim. WTF? I love the mine, and pretty mech everything else, but I really don't understand the point of the warhound, bar just "Make factory good vs Toss". That's as deeply as these guys think. They design units to do things as narrowly as possible. When things are used creatively they have a hissy fit.
did something change about the warhound thats diff in the op?
Warhound should be a really good unit, makes mech almost viable in every MU, you have a new unit that takes the place of marine/rauder it sounds like. With spidermines now, i think mech will indeed be possible in all MU's. Im not finding any info that the autocastable ability is unit specific.
TvT looks like it will stay relatively the same in its 'core'. Mech or bio'mech being the comps that sound like they will be the 'standards'. TvZ looks like Mech or BioMech will be viable, although im not complete sure. Depends on how good warhound is vs armored. Otherwise me might see a rauder-mech style come out. TvP i can't even fathom currently. Bio-Mech looks like it will remain stronger than full mech, or rather rauder-tank with spidermines.
I know alot of T dont like bio-mech strats because of the range of upgrades needed, and they end up falling behind on upgrades late-late game, but HotS is looking legit. Deathball styles will be easier to break in all MU's.
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On June 09 2012 22:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. If it's instant, it might be a decent way to burn energy against HT.
Yeah that the only use i mean 100 Energy is quite alot and 6 seconds is pretty short you're not gonna suddenly chase something with BC's with this. Hell even running away seems hard on bigger maps.
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The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus.
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On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Well they're meant as a buffer for mech against lings and zealots, what did you expect? Blink and 7 range?
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I don't understand the lack of AA on the warhound. I thought that was the whole point of the unit.
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On June 09 2012 22:51 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Well they're meant as a buffer for mech against lings and zealots, what did you expect? Blink and 7 range?
So hug your tanks and cross your fingers i guess ? Doesn't seem very creative and opens you up to Area of Effect which Mech to be honest is already weak to considering you barely have more HP than Bio but basically can't ever dodge anything.
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Does the warhound attacks air ? I think I read somewhere it did not but I feel like everybody here think it does.
If it doesn't, air units will still be very dangerous against mech and I'm not sure if widow mines will be enough.
Btw, if a mine attach itself to a mutalisk and a mutalisk fly over a group of marine as the mine explodes, do the marine take some damage or not ? Same goes the other way, if a ground unit dies to a mine, will the air unit take damage ?
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On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position.
Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol.
As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though...
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If Reaper have 7 range and the nitropack speed, they could be pretty damn good.
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On June 09 2012 22:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol. As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though...
Sad thing though its not just the mobile compositions its basically every ground composition that exists is faster than Mech thanks to Thors and Siege Tanks.
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On June 09 2012 22:51 drbrown wrote: The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus.
You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'.
Your adding protoss Tempest in while forgetting all the good zerg stuff added. Deathballs shouldn't kill zerg anymore, at least not Protoss deathballs, they have alot of options to split the opponent up/tear him apart. As long as the maps are good the MU will be great. Collosus wont be an issue anymore, and to be honest with you im thinking Tempest is going to be good for Defense, or for Containment. It wont be a unit that makes or breaks a composition, its too slow/etc.
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On June 09 2012 22:56 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol. As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though... Sad thing though its not just the mobile compositions its basically every ground composition that exists is faster than Mech thanks to Thors and Siege Tanks.
I still dont get why terrans complain about thors and siege tanks speed. Those units are supposed to be slow. If you want them to run as fast as your othe runits, use your 5-6 empty medivacks to transport the tanks across the map in the air above your bio/faster units. Protoss players use Warpprisms and HT because of slowness and it helps protect them. As long as you respond fast enough to drop your tanks once you get close to enemy territory your fine.
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Quite honestly alot of the new stuff viability will depend on Maps. If the maps in HOTS have as many open area as they have currently Mech will still suck and not be playable , new units or not.
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On June 09 2012 22:50 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:44 SimDawg wrote:On June 09 2012 21:32 MCDayC wrote: I like everything bar the warhound. Mech doesn't need a ground attack unit, they've got the fucking tank. Whats the point of an A move 2 legged walker? It's a Thor without it's interest anti air mechanic, or a Marauder, without stim. WTF? I love the mine, and pretty mech everything else, but I really don't understand the point of the warhound, bar just "Make factory good vs Toss". That's as deeply as these guys think. They design units to do things as narrowly as possible. When things are used creatively they have a hissy fit. did something change about the warhound thats diff in the op? Warhound should be a really good unit, makes mech almost viable in every MU, you have a new unit that takes the place of marine/rauder it sounds like. With spidermines now, i think mech will indeed be possible in all MU's. Im not finding any info that the autocastable ability is unit specific. TvT looks like it will stay relatively the same in its 'core'. Mech or bio'mech being the comps that sound like they will be the 'standards'. TvZ looks like Mech or BioMech will be viable, although im not complete sure. Depends on how good warhound is vs armored. Otherwise me might see a rauder-mech style come out. TvP i can't even fathom currently. Bio-Mech looks like it will remain stronger than full mech, or rather rauder-tank with spidermines. I know alot of T dont like bio-mech strats because of the range of upgrades needed, and they end up falling behind on upgrades late-late game, but HotS is looking legit. Deathball styles will be easier to break in all MU's.
If the Warhound's missiles can hit biological units, then I'll be happy with the Warhound. If it only hits Mechanical units, then it's way too specific and loses nearly all application vs Zerg and MMM.
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On June 09 2012 22:56 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:51 drbrown wrote: The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus. You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'. Your adding protoss Tempest in while forgetting all the good zerg stuff added. Deathballs shouldn't kill zerg anymore, at least not Protoss deathballs, they have alot of options to split the opponent up/tear him apart. As long as the maps are good the MU will be great. Collosus wont be an issue anymore, and to be honest with you im thinking Tempest is going to be good for Defense, or for Containment. It wont be a unit that makes or breaks a composition, its too slow/etc.
I can see for example the zerg army attacking at the protoss army and the tempest being a bit further back to snipe key units like Infestors and broodlords/vipers. The Tempest is pretty expensive but I think much more useful then the carrier.
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I wonder if you can make the widowmine not latch on automatically. Hold it back manually and then release it when you want to
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On June 09 2012 22:58 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:56 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol. As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though... Sad thing though its not just the mobile compositions its basically every ground composition that exists is faster than Mech thanks to Thors and Siege Tanks. I still dont get why terrans complain about thors and siege tanks speed. Those units are supposed to be slow. If you want them to run as fast as your othe runits, use your 5-6 empty medivacks to transport the tanks across the map in the air above your bio/faster units. Protoss players use Warpprisms and HT because of slowness and it helps protect them. As long as you respond fast enough to drop your tanks once you get close to enemy territory your fine.
I don't think anyone having a Mech army will have 5-6 Medivacs. Or do you build 5-6 Warpprisms ? A mixed Bio/Mech army that is upgraded well enough on everything to compete beyond midgame doesn't exist .
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On June 09 2012 23:04 raf3776 wrote: I wonder if you can make the widowmine not latch on automatically. Hold it back manually and then release it when you want to and which target you want, that would be cool indeed.
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On June 09 2012 23:04 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:56 ohampatu wrote:On June 09 2012 22:51 drbrown wrote: The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus. You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'. Your adding protoss Tempest in while forgetting all the good zerg stuff added. Deathballs shouldn't kill zerg anymore, at least not Protoss deathballs, they have alot of options to split the opponent up/tear him apart. As long as the maps are good the MU will be great. Collosus wont be an issue anymore, and to be honest with you im thinking Tempest is going to be good for Defense, or for Containment. It wont be a unit that makes or breaks a composition, its too slow/etc. I can see for example the zerg army attacking at the protoss army and the tempest being a bit further back to snipe key units like Infestors and broodlords/vipers. The Tempest is pretty expensive but I think much more useful then the carrier.
As far as I know the tempest will be a long range siege unit to break contains/defensive positions. Its super super slow. Yes it hits really hard, but its slow attack that isn't AOE. The tempest will not help deathball styles at all. Heres some examples of how it can be used.
Contain a terran on 2 base, tech to tempest. Use a observer to spot the terran army. Snipe Tanks from long range. I mean, i think its a really fucking strong unit. But not op, and it wont help deathball styles at all. It will purely be used to break defensive positions/snipe big units in offensive positions...or be used defensively to break contains. It really wont go past that, its just too slow and non aoe
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Does anyone know if Hydralisks are still Light or just Biological?
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so the Viper doesnt require a specific building ? Thats a lil bit not right for such a vital unit.
And I dont know what Blizz intends for the tempest to do. A super costly, highest tech unit is supposed to be the core unit in the composition but the tempest is more of a gimmick, harassment kind of unit. You wont see any "tempest build" which see protoss killing scrubs with a dozen of tempests.
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On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy?
How is a unit that endlessly spawns minions not swarmy? If you watch the battle report they definitely make zerg feel like a swarm imo. to each their own i guess.
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On June 09 2012 23:17 Arceus wrote: so the Viper doesnt require a specific building ? Thats a lil bit not right for such a vital unit.
And I dont know what Blizz intends for the tempest to do. A super costly, highest tech unit is supposed to be the core unit in the composition but the tempest is more of a gimmick, harassment kind of unit. You wont see any "tempest build" which see protoss killing scrubs with a dozen of tempests.
I dont think it has a 'building requirement'. But it requires your hatch to be morphed to its second stage. So lair tech i think..I confuse lair/hive tech and which one is t2 or t3. But it requires a T2 Hatch im almost certain
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the viper require the Hive, so is a t3 unit
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On June 09 2012 19:36 FrogOfWar wrote: Thanks! One error: Afaik the Mothership doesn't cloak units anymore. (OP says it is the same.)
About the tempest: I remember it was first introduced as an anti air splash damage dealer to counter mass muta. Is this anti air splash attack completely gone? Does anyone know?
Blizzard stated that they removed the tempest AOE because they put in the phoenix upgrade to deal with mutas instead. Personally I'd like them to just remove the phoenix upgrade and give the AOE back as it seems our air is going to still be kind of useless from how its looking right now. (not counting the oracle as its just a sick harass unit)
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On June 09 2012 18:22 Sea_Food wrote: Wow tempest is so terrible cost 300/300, has as much DPS as a roach. Less than a zealot. To compensate for its whopping 22 range I guess. I think the PvZ battle report mentioned that it was intentional so that the 22 range won't be OP. It's a very niche sort of siege vehicle.
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On June 09 2012 22:51 drbrown wrote: The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus.
Start using them vipers to pull them in and have corruptors rip them apart. Or just do as was in the battle report hydra/swarm host while mixing in infestor/corruptor and possibly broodlords.
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Screw the tempest, just bring back carriers with some buffs.
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Why the hell does everybody repeat that the Tempest is so costly? It's cheaper than Battlecruiser, fffs! Granted, BCs are piece of shit (aside for late game TvT), but Tempest seems so much more useful. Even one or two can work as an adition to your main army, forcing your opponent to make a move or being slowly pot-shotted to death.
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On June 09 2012 20:51 Chaosvuistje wrote: Does anybody know if the corruptor still has that building chewing ability? Can anybody at MLG check that?
It's actually the Viper not the corruptor as its used to regen energy. Check out the battler reports blizzard is posting to see for yourself
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Maybe I'm wrong but i thought the tempest speed was ok in the battle report. There was a section where they were stacked over some colossus and they seemed to move at about the same speed.
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Zerg gonna get raped in HotS, which is supposed to be their exp pack.
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so i take control of a widow mine and i attach it to another widow mine, then i take control of that mine, and i attach it to another mine, then i control the other mine, LOL..
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On June 09 2012 23:49 StorkHwaiting wrote: Zerg gonna get raped in HotS, which is supposed to be their exp pack. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Zerg is by far the strongest race in the current build.
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On June 09 2012 23:56 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 23:49 StorkHwaiting wrote: Zerg gonna get raped in HotS, which is supposed to be their exp pack. You have no idea what you're talking about. Protoss is by far the strongest race in the current build.
FYP, but will be patched a lot anyway so no balance discussion there. hydra/viper alone like in de video gets superraped by HT so no, zerg still will have to go BL/infestor or if the ultracharge is really good perhaps some ultras mixed in. dont know how to fight range 22 units that hover above some archons + cannons or HT. lets see if range 22 stays.
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without the 22 range, swarm host are unbeatable, because they have freaking 14 range!
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WHY DID THEY REMOVE THE WARHOUNDS ANTI AIR ATTACK??
Blizzard knows that the Thor sucks absolute balls at being an anti air unit because of their low numbers cause them to be easily magic boxed by mutas, we saw this time and time again in WoL. Make the Warhounds cost more money and give them an anti air attack.
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Can't believe they didn't give warhound a ground to air. I would gladly trade some of it's strength on the ground for aa. Now 3 of the 4 mech units are ground only, what do we need that for? Siege tanks + battle hellions + mines should be fine to hold the ground, what mech really needs to work is some AA that isn't slow with mediocre range. Warhound -> Goliath please.
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On June 10 2012 00:07 Solo Terran wrote: WHY DID THEY REMOVE THE WARHOUNDS ANTI AIR ATTACK??
Blizzard knows that the Thor sucks absolute balls at being an anti air unit because of their low numbers cause them to be easily magic boxed by mutas, we saw this time and time again in WoL. Make the Warhounds cost more money and give them an anti air attack.
Why not nerf the ground attack and add a medium/low damage long range AA?
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On June 10 2012 00:08 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:07 Solo Terran wrote: WHY DID THEY REMOVE THE WARHOUNDS ANTI AIR ATTACK??
Blizzard knows that the Thor sucks absolute balls at being an anti air unit because of their low numbers cause them to be easily magic boxed by mutas, we saw this time and time again in WoL. Make the Warhounds cost more money and give them an anti air attack. Why not nerf the ground attack and add a medium/low damage long range AA?
You could also make the units voice actor do an Arnold Schwarzenegger impression.
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Break up the quote a little bit with maybe bold text its kind of hard to look through
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Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big.
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On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big.
Considering they're pretty much special Anti-Mech making them cost too much supply would be silly.
For whatever reason Blizz thinks Mech players should build terrible upgrades Vikings as Anti-Air. At least change the way Thors AA-works.
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On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive.
With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy.
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ugh ,why is Blizzard doing this to the game?
The Terran changes are great-- they are adding core units to the Terran army.
adding so many gimmicky casters just makes the game worse: grabbing tanks, limiting the range of 30 marines to 1, mass recall and cloaking, and pressing 1 button to deny a bases mineral income is not skill.
Starcraft is supposed to be won by the better player-- the player that has better mechanics, macro, and decision making than his opponent-- not the player that casts 1 spell and wins the game....
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On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy.
As it should ^_^
Really waiting for the TvP Battle Report (if there is one) before deciding if I like the mech changes.
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I don't like that mines cost gas.
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On June 10 2012 00:21 xrapture wrote: ugh ,why is Blizzard doing this to the game?
The Terran changes are great-- they are adding core units to the Terran army.
adding so many gimmicky casters just makes the game worse: grabbing tanks, limiting the range of 30 marines to 1, mass recall and cloaking, and pressing 1 button to deny a bases mineral income is not skill.
Starcraft is supposed to be won by the better player-- the player that has better mechanics, macro, and decision making than his opponent-- not the player that casts 1 spell and wins the game....
Corsair Disruption Web and Arbiter Recall and Cloaking Field.
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Does the widow mine do friendly splash?
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On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy.
This is already the case with current mech via Hellion/Thor/Tank. The reason why this didn't work is because when split up, they are unable to utilize their synergy. The Warhound is there to not only mitigate that weakness, but also be a midgame type unit combined with Battle Hellions to make viable pushes.
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On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy.
I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75...
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On June 10 2012 00:21 xrapture wrote: ugh ,why is Blizzard doing this to the game?
The Terran changes are great-- they are adding core units to the Terran army.
adding so many gimmicky casters just makes the game worse: grabbing tanks, limiting the range of 30 marines to 1, mass recall and cloaking, and pressing 1 button to deny a bases mineral income is not skill.
Starcraft is supposed to be won by the better player-- the player that has better mechanics, macro, and decision making than his opponent-- not the player that casts 1 spell and wins the game....
I agree. The changes to zerg and protoss are complete cheese. Burrowed broodlords and all these casters for zerg are so silly. It's not cool or clutch at all by grabbing a tank or colossus. You essentially had the same thing with infestors using neural parasite but atleast then infestors are ground units which can be killed. These air units are very difficult to focus down especially with the cast range.
This game is extremely disappointing
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Viper seems overpowered after watching the battle report. Maybe they should allow Abduct to pull units towards them slower, and at the same time making the leash destroyable. This increases the amount of micro needed for the defending player and gives him a chance to react. That being said, forcefields are still overpowered.
The oracle might also be overpowered from what I see. Denying mining at crucial times can really make or break games. And all that just through one spell, seems quite harsh.
I don't like the tempest though, seems like it doesn't serve any particular role well at the moment.
Swarm hosts seem fine at the moment and looks to be a very interesting unit for zoning out areas.
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warhound are god on the ground, they do 23 against everything(1.3 cooldown) plus a bonus vs mechanical, they are better than thor for sure
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I really don't like the Warhound's auto attack ability with those missiles. They only attack mech units and the player has no control over it, and it seems to be a big part of the Warhound's DPS.
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I have an idea... Blizzard didn't want the Warhound to be exactly like a smaller Thor so they removed the anti air attack (probably). Give Warhounds a non splash anti air attack that fires at a decent rate. This way adding a few Thors in your mech mix will be really beneficial at zoning mutas and dealing that splash damage.
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On June 10 2012 00:25 Saechiis wrote: Does the widow mine do friendly splash?
It shouldn't else its be straight up suicide to use near you own base. Imagine a Baneling Bust where the Banelings have attached widow mines and kill stuff with even more splash....
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The Tempest seems absolutely terrifying. The things a smart player could do with that kind of range...
I'm hoping it doesn't remain in the game in its current form.
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On June 10 2012 00:24 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:21 xrapture wrote: ugh ,why is Blizzard doing this to the game?
The Terran changes are great-- they are adding core units to the Terran army.
adding so many gimmicky casters just makes the game worse: grabbing tanks, limiting the range of 30 marines to 1, mass recall and cloaking, and pressing 1 button to deny a bases mineral income is not skill.
Starcraft is supposed to be won by the better player-- the player that has better mechanics, macro, and decision making than his opponent-- not the player that casts 1 spell and wins the game.... Corsair Disruption Web and Arbiter Recall and Cloaking Field.
Not a good comparison at all. Shows you don't know BW even a little bit. Corsairs require ridiculous micro to use effectively. Mothership core does not. Arbiters were a key block in the Protoss army or mech was able to roll right over P in the midgame before 3rd or 4th bases were fully saturated.
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On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75...
Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink.
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On June 10 2012 00:30 InMotion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:21 xrapture wrote: ugh ,why is Blizzard doing this to the game?
The Terran changes are great-- they are adding core units to the Terran army.
adding so many gimmicky casters just makes the game worse: grabbing tanks, limiting the range of 30 marines to 1, mass recall and cloaking, and pressing 1 button to deny a bases mineral income is not skill.
Starcraft is supposed to be won by the better player-- the player that has better mechanics, macro, and decision making than his opponent-- not the player that casts 1 spell and wins the game.... I agree. The changes to zerg and protoss are complete cheese. Burrowed broodlords and all these casters for zerg are so silly. It's not cool or clutch at all by grabbing a tank or colossus. You essentially had the same thing with infestors using neural parasite but atleast then infestors are ground units which can be killed. These air units are very difficult to focus down especially with the cast range. This game is extremely disappointing
Yeah I also think so. They've strengthened Terran both in straight up fights with Warhounds and Battle Hellions, and given them a harrassment/defensive option in widow mines.
Protoss has gained a siege unit in the Tempest that sounds like a worse air to ground siege units than the Carrier was (at least the Carrier had decent DPS). The Oracle is a that could be effective, but it sounds like it is more useful for cheesy timings anything with its cloak ability. If you simply defend your mineral lines with anti-air, then I imagine you can render the Oracle pretty worthless. The Preordain ability sounds cool, but I think Observers will simply be better still at scouting, especially considering that the Stargate tech tree has the least useful units compared to the Twilight or Robo tech tree. Thus, Protoss will still rely opening Robo and using Observers to scout. The Mothership Core gives some interesting abilities, but I feel like they again are most useful for cheesy timings than anything else.
As for Zerg, the Viper and Swarm Host seem powerful, especially when combined with Infestors. While it may be ok balance wise, the idea that Zerg isn't a "swarm" or a race of lots of little weak units supported by a few very powerful ones that are easily re-maxed kind of ruins the race. Blizzard is redefining Zerg as the "wizard" race of the SC2. Brood/Infestor in PvZ still urks me as being very un-Zerg.
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On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75...
It's kind of funny that the Warhound costs more than twice the amount of a Roach, but the same supply. Maybe 1-supply roach in the near future?
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On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink.
Not quite in terms of raw stats. Stalkers only have 160health total, does 10+4 damage every 1.44 seconds (much less damage and attacks slower). They are realllllllyyyyy different. This isn't even considering their extra missile attack that the Warhounds have.
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On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink.
As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are.
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if the tempest has the same "policy" for upgrades as other units(10% rounded up) and it stays with 22 range and 66 damage vs massive, tempest is gonna get +7 for every attack upgrade 3 tempest (66+7+7)*3=240 can oneshot a BL from 22 range (or just 4 unupgraded) and with +1 2 Tempest can oneshot infestor (46+5)*2=102. Thanks to the growing lighting ball you can retreat while it charges and attack when the ball is big(micro). Hope it makes to release.
I think that after removing AA to Warhound mech with just isn't going to have enough AA.
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On June 10 2012 00:41 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... It's kind of funny that the Warhound costs more than twice the amount of a Roach, but the same supply. Maybe 1-supply roach in the near future?
Viking cost same as warhound and Phoenix cost even more (150/100) and yet they are still only 2 supply.
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On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are.
I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit )
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On June 10 2012 00:44 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Not quite in terms of raw stats. Stalkers only have 160health total, does 10+4 damage every 1.44 seconds (much less damage and attacks slower). They are realllllllyyyyy different. This isn't even considering their extra missile attack that the Warhounds have.
Huh... I just realized with the slight speed advantage, Warhounds can kite Marines...
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Are hydralisks still the same cost as usual? In the battle reports, I see absurd amounts of hydras and other gas units and can't help but think they lowered the gas cost for them in HoTS. Is this true?
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As a terran i love the widow mines, great feature and its not as deadly as most ppl think, yes they will be really painfull if you clump ur entire army up into 5 mines, but if you use 4-6 zerglings as mine sweepers suddenly the widow mines don't do as much as they normally would.
loving it! also, really hope the hots custom map maker implements these units so we can test around a bit and see how it works.
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On June 10 2012 00:47 nocrA wrote: if the tempest has the same "policy" for upgrades as other units(10% rounded up) and it stays with 22 range and 66 damage vs massive, tempest is gonna get +7 for every attack upgrade 3 tempest (66+7+7)*3=240 can oneshot a BL from 22 range and with +1 2 Tempest can oneshot infestor (49+5)*2=104. Thanks to the growing lighting ball you can retreat while it charges and attack when the ball is big(micro). Hope it makes to release.
I think that after removing AA to Warhound mech with just isn't going to have enough AA.
Tempest has same DPS than a roach, less than a marine for exponential amount of cost. I think it will be only useful at sniping key low health units like infestor, viper, swarm lord, brood lords and ghost. Against other they have not enough DPS to be worth the huge cost.
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On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink.
What? Let's compare.
A single Stalker costs 83% of the mineral cost, 66% of the gas cost, and 93% of the time cost of a Warhound. That same Stalker does only 39% of damage per second that the Warhound does (calculated from base DPS without considering bonuses and remember that the Stalker has horrible scaling with attack upgrades) and has 72% of the health of the Warhound. They both cost the same supply, and the Warhound has 100% of it's health covered by armor, whereas the Stalker only has 50%.
It terms of raw statistics, the Stalker is terribly inefficient compared to the Warhound.
Furthermore, SCVs can mass repair Warhounds, though Stalkers have rechargeable shields. The Stalker has Blink, while the Warhound has autocast rockets which add significantly to their DPS. Finally, the Warhound is going to be much farther up the tech tree than the Stalker.
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On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit )
I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything.
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On June 10 2012 00:50 Mirosuu wrote: Are hydralisks still the same cost as usual? In the battle reports, I see absurd amounts of hydras and other gas units and can't help but think they lowered the gas cost for them in HoTS. Is this true?
I think it's because the zerg players didn't bother getting any upgrades. Hydra should stay the same cost as usual.
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On June 10 2012 00:52 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything.
Well, Raxes do, and no one find that weird. Factory did during BW too.. and it was normal..
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On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit )
I think they want terrans to keep building starports/vikings and later switch to the buffed Battlecruisers
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I am the only one worried what a spidermined charging ultralisk can do to a terran army?
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On June 10 2012 00:54 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:52 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything. Well, Raxes do, and no one find that weird. Factory did during BW too.. and it was normal..
Shouldn't complain even more since Robo (the toss equivalent of a factory) has absolutely no anti-air
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On June 10 2012 00:52 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything. the robo units dont have completely different upgrades (armory instead of engi)
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As it's not even in beta yet I could imagine them not spending much time on balancing specific numbers. I bet they kind of just kind of go off feel and don't spend much time thinking about it because they know these things are all subject to change during the beta and having a lot more players input.
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On June 10 2012 00:54 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:52 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything. Well, Raxes do, and no one find that weird. Factory did during BW too.. and it was normal..
Barracks units are almost universally weak to AoE; they need to be massed to be effective.
Yes, SC1 Factories gave you everything you needed. And that's why Mech is the dominant build in most vT matches. That is a bad thing; there's shouldn't be a single best strategy.
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On June 10 2012 00:54 Noocta wrote: Well, Raxes do, and no one find that weird. Factory did during BW too.. and it was normal.. Yah raxes are amazing against colossi and broodlords.
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On June 10 2012 00:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:54 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:52 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything. Well, Raxes do, and no one find that weird. Factory did during BW too.. and it was normal.. Shouldn't  complain even more since Robo (the toss equivalent of a factory) has absolutely no anti-air 
There is some huge differences. Stalkers are common in all Protoss match ups and share upgrades with Robotics facility units.
Terran factory units do not share upgrades with Marines. Thus Terran should have some anti-air coming from the factory.
Let me tell you right now what Terran needs in HOTS. First the Hellion stays as is, except it has an upgrade that allows each Hellion to place 1 Flaming Betty Turrets that has 5 range, the same damage as the Hellion (shares the blue flame upgrade too), and a wider arc of fire (giving Terrans map control, a way to defend Tank lines, and a way to defend expansions from Marines/Zealots/Zerglings). Then the Tank stays as is. The Thor is removed or made into a ground specific bruiser.
Finally, the Goliath 2.0 is introduced for a cost of 150/50 with 160 HP and 2 armor that does 25 damage per second vs Light and 10 damage per second to everything else on the ground (counters Chargelots with damage and armor) and has a powerful anti-air attack (good vs single air units). You can upgrade the anti-air attack to do splash damage (to counter Mutas specifically). This way the Goliath wouldn't be good vs Roaches/Stalkers/Ultras/Tanks/Marauders/Immortals, but would be great vs light units (except perhaps mass Ling, but you have Hellions and Flaming Betty's for that), thus complementing Tanks well.
Basically they are a cheaper lighter version of Thors that deals with Chargelots. These changes would make Terran so much more dynamic and add a lot of viability to Mech play. Furthermore it would force Protoss players into a positional fight with Mech facing off against Stalkers and Robo units, or force Protoss into air units. Then Blizzard just needs to fix the Carrier and we have ourselves a game.
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warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
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Like everything in the game is better than a stalker at a straight up fight. It's funny/sad that anyone would even bring it up.
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On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
In a straight up fight perhaps but you forget that stalkers can shoot up, can upgrade blink and share upgrades with 100% of your ground force.
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On June 10 2012 01:06 Yaotzin wrote: Like everything in the game is better than a stalker at a straight up fight. It's funny/sad that anyone would even bring it up.
Stalker>Viking. I could be wrong though.:D
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On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
Don't forget that crazy missile auto-attack doing an additional 30 damage per cooldown, and the fact that Warhounds have +1 range over a Stalker, so better DPS density and probably get the first shot off.
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On June 10 2012 01:06 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
In a straight up fight perhaps but you forget that stalkers can shoot up, can upgrade blink and share upgrades with 100% of your ground force.
ok, but i also forgot that, the missile have 9 range, therefore you can kite the stalker for a bit
On June 10 2012 01:10 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missile) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
Don't forget that crazy missile auto-attack doing an additional 30 damage per cooldown, and the fact that Warhounds have +1 range over a Stalker, so better DPS density and probably get the first shot off. 23 dps include the missile (23 per 1,3 sec mean almost 18 in 1 sec plus 30 from the missile every 6 sec)
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On June 09 2012 17:52 SpecFire wrote: Thank you! very helpful
also, wtf, Warhound only 150/75? seems cheap. It's barely slower than a stalker (so it's fast), very powerful and yes, pretty cheap for an a-move unit that even autofires mech units for you.
Which i dont understand considering that mech armies are slow so it wont be too hard to focus down the mech units. It's much harder to focus fire the banelings out of a bling army and yet Tanks dont get autofire like that.
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On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
I think you misunderstand the missile attack. The warhound does 23 damage with its regular. The missile on the other hand
Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack.
So basically extra DPS. You also didn't take into account attack rate and range, which the Warhound is also superior.
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Yeah, let's compare Stalkers and Warhounds in a 1v1 battle when 1 walks out of a 200/125 building and the other can warp in from pylons all over the map from a 150 mineral building.
I'm hereby dubbing the saying "comparing Stalkers with Warhounds".
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I think Dustin Browder is looking for a BW style of balance here . Throwing imbalanced shit all over the place and hoping that it will balance itself out . Well in BW to make something imbalanced you had to have a lot of micro skills , here though everything seems easy to use . Mines and Warhounds seem really good for their cost , zerg units look fucking scary with larva inject , while protoss got some gimmickly shit that i think will fall flat on it's face . I have no idea how protoss is supposed to deal with PvZ . Imagine ZvP lategame with 3/3 upgrade Broodlords swarm hosts infestors and sunkens marching to your bace . Sauron zerg will have a new meaning ...Protoss better have a lot of them Tempests ready to shoot them from miles away .
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On June 10 2012 01:06 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
In a straight up fight perhaps but you forget that stalkers can shoot up, can upgrade blink and share upgrades with 100% of your ground force.
The upgrade point is an important aspect that nobody seems to remember. Toss's 3 upgrade categories covers everything they need in most situations as Air is seldom used in PvT. It means that Terran still has to rely on Bio or Starport for AA and those require upgrades or tech. For Bio to even be usable, it needs Stim/CS/Attack/Armor upgrades and an extensive production infrastructure. It's a costly investment.
Not to mention this doesn't even address Terran still lacks a viable High Tier unit. The other two races gain siege units and upgraded High Tier units - Ultra Charge, Tempest. Terran also lacks a good initiator for fights. Vipers pull, Tempest has long shots that require the opposing team to actually do something or risk losing important units.
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In theorycraft land how does Protoss stop mech+vikings?
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Ultralisk charge,Abduct,Warhound are the only things I don't like.
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On June 09 2012 18:32 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless. they have 6 range for attachment, even if you reveal them, you need a siege weapon, they are pretty overpowered for they cost, because aside from ling they always return their cost(every other unit cost equal or more than these mines)
Then suicide lings, or prepare yourself to quit sc2 and try bw :p
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combat drugs actually looks pretty good based on the TvZ battle report
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On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink.
I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
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Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300 Gas: 300 Supply: 6 Build Time: 75 Health: 300 Shields: 150 Speed: 2.25 Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive) Attack Range: 10 Attack Delay: 6 Upgrade – Gravity Sling:
attack delay 6!? is this a typo?
8dps for a capital ship?
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On June 10 2012 01:20 Sandstorm9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink. I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
We don't even know that pure hellion/Warhound will be good against toss..
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On June 10 2012 00:56 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I think they want terrans to keep building starports/vikings and later switch to the buffed Battlecruisers That would be great.
Btw, it occured to me that we cant compare Stalkers to Warhounds. It's never X vs Y, but always a combination of units. So do the Protoss have the army composition to deal with this? Void Rays or Immortals sound like a nice counter.
Void Rays in actual combat? Say it aint so!
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On June 10 2012 01:18 Yaotzin wrote: In theorycraft land how does Protoss stop mech+vikings?
Good question, I'm wondering that myself. Mass Archons seems good against that composition, Immortals would be decent... maybe hallucination for meatshields and widow mine fodder? Tempests would be great with something to protect them from Vikings. Problem is those three units are all from different tech trees.
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On June 10 2012 00:59 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:54 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:52 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything. Well, Raxes do, and no one find that weird. Factory did during BW too.. and it was normal.. Barracks units are almost universally weak to AoE; they need to be massed to be effective. Yes, SC1 Factories gave you everything you needed. And that's why Mech is the dominant build in most vT matches. That is a bad thing; there's shouldn't be a single best strategy.
Uh... that's incredibly false. In TvZ, Marine/Medic/Firebat with Sci Vessel support was the dominant build. Tanks were needed vs Ling/Lurker, and Goliaths were terrible vs Mutas (you needed Sci Vessel or mass marine).
In TvP, you needed marines + bunkers to hold the front because Toss could murder you otherwise. You needed Sci Vessels to stop Arbiters and Psi Storm, and Dropships were needed to help harass. Yes, Factory-based compositions were dominant, but Factory needed support.
The reason why MM didn't work vs P in BW is solely due to the Reaver.
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On June 10 2012 01:21 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote + Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300 Gas: 300 Supply: 6 Build Time: 75 Health: 300 Shields: 150 Speed: 2.25 Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive) Attack Range: 10 Attack Delay: 6 Upgrade – Gravity Sling:
attack delay 6!? is this a typo? 8dps for a capital ship? It's obviously for sniping from under your ball and forcing engagements.
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On June 10 2012 01:20 Sandstorm9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink. I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
You heard it here folks, get 0/0, no-stim, no-combat shield Marines to handle all the AA problems that Factory units have all game long.
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On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more.
The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech.
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On June 10 2012 01:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
I think you misunderstand the missile attack. The warhound does 23 damage with its regular. The missile on the other hand Show nested quote +Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack. So basically extra DPS. You also didn't take into account attack rate and range, which the Warhound is also superior. warhound does 23 DAMAGE, not DPS, also warhound shoots 8 times, while stalker only 7 due to the range(you can see that in my calculations)
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On June 10 2012 01:24 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:21 caradoc wrote: Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300 Gas: 300 Supply: 6 Build Time: 75 Health: 300 Shields: 150 Speed: 2.25 Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive) Attack Range: 10 Attack Delay: 6 Upgrade – Gravity Sling:
attack delay 6!? is this a typo? 8dps for a capital ship? It's obviously for sniping from under your ball and forcing engagements.
yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers. I thought the 22 range would be a decent counterbalance to abduct's range, but with an attack delay of 6, I can't help but think they'd be the ones getting abducted. It's cost effective to sac a viper to snag one-- you can just chain abduct.
I guess it's a hard thing to tune with such long range, it could quite quickly get OP.
The unit feels clunky.
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On June 10 2012 01:27 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
I think you misunderstand the missile attack. The warhound does 23 damage with its regular. The missile on the other hand Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack. So basically extra DPS. You also didn't take into account attack rate and range, which the Warhound is also superior. warhound does 23 DAMAGE, not DPS
That doesn't make sense because Stalkers do 14 damage not 14 DPS. Their DPS is significantly lower.
Either you are wrong about the Warhound or Stalker. You pick.
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On June 10 2012 01:18 Yaotzin wrote: In theorycraft land how does Protoss stop mech+vikings? Same way Protoss dealt with it in WoL. Abuse your mobility, use blink stalkers and warp prisms to harass a slow ass mech army and just take more bases than him. Full on mech still probably won't be viable in HoTS.
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On June 10 2012 01:28 caradoc wrote: yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers.
Numbers are easy to change and without doubt will before this is released. Concentrate on the concepts, not the numbers.
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On June 10 2012 01:20 Sandstorm9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink. I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
And if you play Mechanical you don't have Bio Upgrades so using 0-0 badly upgrades Marines ( that btw suck without Stim , CS and enough Medivacs to heal ) .
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On June 10 2012 01:30 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:28 caradoc wrote: yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers.
Numbers are easy to change and without doubt will before this is released. Concentrate on the concepts, not the numbers.
Right, as I edited into my post you quoted here-- it seems clunky/really difficult to tune properly.
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On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech.
You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades.
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On June 10 2012 01:31 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:30 Yaotzin wrote:On June 10 2012 01:28 caradoc wrote: yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers.
Numbers are easy to change and without doubt will before this is released. Concentrate on the concepts, not the numbers. Right, as I edited into my post you quoted here-- it seems clunky/really difficult to tune properly. Yah, high range units tend to be (hi tank). If anything it'll probably be too strong though. Range is the strongest stat in the game by far.
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On June 10 2012 01:29 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:27 Garmer wrote:On June 10 2012 01:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote: warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps 220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80 194 vs 34/80 181 vs 11/80 168 vs 00/69 155 vs 00/47 142 vs 00/25 129 vs 00/03 129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50% better than a stalker for sure
I think you misunderstand the missile attack. The warhound does 23 damage with its regular. The missile on the other hand Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack. So basically extra DPS. You also didn't take into account attack rate and range, which the Warhound is also superior. warhound does 23 DAMAGE, not DPS That doesn't make sense because Stalkers do 14 damage not 14 DPS. Their DPS is significantly lower. Either you are wrong about the Warhound or Stalker. You pick. about stalker, dunno why i have written 14, because in my mind were 10 the dps .... my bad anyway it's 8 shoots against 7 so stalker befor dying make 63 damage
so basically warhoud can kill TWO stalker lol, and still 31 hp remain, it is worth 125/50/2 + more than 100%
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So Protoss is still going to have only zealots as a mineral dump, while all their new units are gas heavy? :0 Scary gas dependence.
I'm guessing mass expanding with that mothership and prism/oracle harass will become standard.
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On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades.
Exactly and protoss try to build as few stalkers as possible, since they cost so much. Losing a mob of warhounds will make it so the terran rebuild them all, which will take time. Far more than rebuilding the same amount of stalkers.
Still, the Warhound looks like a beast. It with the battle hellion are really going to change the match up.
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On June 10 2012 01:38 Yaotzin wrote: So Protoss is still going to have only zealots as a mineral dump, while all their new units are gas heavy? :0 Scary gas dependence.
I'm guessing mass expanding with that mothership and prism/oracle harass will become standard.
Your second mineral dump are cannons.
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On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades. Well obviously you can't just compare it head to head, because no one in their right mind is gonna try using blink stalkers against warhounds anytime soon is HotS. That's what I was showing. A Warhound is truly on the same scale as a marauder, it's just better all around and costs more to offset that. And you never fight with stalkers against marauders. In fact the goal in any PvT is to make as few stalkers as possible. And with the addition of the Warhound, that rule will still hold.
And your argument of what comes out of what building gets ridiculous when you actually compare fairly. Do you know how much all of the buildings and research to have those choices costs? Toss doesn't automatically start with all of their tech.
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I don't play terran, but I'm glad it looks like might have made mech more viable TvP. Should make the games a lot more interesting to watch. Also, anyone else think mech looks rediculous TvZ now? It's already good but those battle hellions are going to make lings more useless than they already are vs mech. I'm pretty excited for beta
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On June 10 2012 01:41 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:38 Yaotzin wrote: So Protoss is still going to have only zealots as a mineral dump, while all their new units are gas heavy? :0 Scary gas dependence.
I'm guessing mass expanding with that mothership and prism/oracle harass will become standard. Your second mineral dump are cannons. Well against Zerg yeah. Not so much the others..
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On June 10 2012 01:46 Uhh Negative wrote:I don't play terran, but I'm glad it looks like might have made mech more viable TvP. Should make the games a lot more interesting to watch. Also, anyone else think mech looks rediculous TvZ now? It's already good but those battle hellions are going to make lings more useless than they already are vs mech. I'm pretty excited for beta  Dunno for sure yet. Gonna have to see how Warhounds fare against mass Roaches. Battle Hellions countering something they've already countered pretty hard doesn't make much difference.
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On June 10 2012 01:46 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:41 Sandermatt wrote:On June 10 2012 01:38 Yaotzin wrote: So Protoss is still going to have only zealots as a mineral dump, while all their new units are gas heavy? :0 Scary gas dependence.
I'm guessing mass expanding with that mothership and prism/oracle harass will become standard. Your second mineral dump are cannons. Well against Zerg yeah. Not so much the others..
Grubby masses cannons in PvT after he gets 4 bases.
Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash?
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On June 10 2012 01:56 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:46 Uhh Negative wrote:I don't play terran, but I'm glad it looks like might have made mech more viable TvP. Should make the games a lot more interesting to watch. Also, anyone else think mech looks rediculous TvZ now? It's already good but those battle hellions are going to make lings more useless than they already are vs mech. I'm pretty excited for beta  Dunno for sure yet. Gonna have to see how Warhounds fare against mass Roaches. Battle Hellions countering something they've already countered pretty hard doesn't make much difference. I don't think warhounds will be much use TvZ. With an ability like that, they are pretty much pidgeonholed to be used against mechanical units. Making them really strong even without the extra damage spell would make them just ridiculously strong. There needs to be a trade-off.
Besides, we still have thors and tanks. Those guys need some love too.
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On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:46 Yaotzin wrote:On June 10 2012 01:41 Sandermatt wrote:On June 10 2012 01:38 Yaotzin wrote: So Protoss is still going to have only zealots as a mineral dump, while all their new units are gas heavy? :0 Scary gas dependence.
I'm guessing mass expanding with that mothership and prism/oracle harass will become standard. Your second mineral dump are cannons. Well against Zerg yeah. Not so much the others.. Grubby masses cannons in PvT after he gets 4 bases. Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle. PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash?
from what I saw. If it attaches to an enemy unit, it will not hurt your own units, but this is something blizzard said they were experimenting with. However if the mine attaches to an enemy unit, then that unit has the potential to hurt their own team unless they are micro'd away. As seen in the battle report, david kim made it a habit to split units that had a mine attached to them. An example of maybe why blizzard doesn't have friendly fire implemented would be like sacrificing a ling to get a mine then send the ling to the terran army, or purposefully send overlords to attract mines and send them to terrans medivacs/vikings.
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shit im just so happy about the warhound. ))))))))
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On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote: Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash? We're talking about mech in HotS here. Zealots will melt to battle helions, immortals and stalkers will melt to warhounds. So yeah, what do I spend minerals on?
Re: widow mine splash, the devs said they haven't decided whether it will damage friendlies or not.
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On June 10 2012 02:19 Alexj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote: Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash? We're talking about mech in HotS here. Zealots will melt to battle helions, immortals and stalkers will melt to warhounds. So yeah, what do I spend minerals on? Re: widow mine splash, the devs said they haven't decided whether it will damage friendlies or not.
so they are going mech right? that means they are less mobile than you. spend minerals on nexus on opposite sides of the map, and buy cannons. You think cannons are useless against hellions? they aren't, and that's your biggest fear if your plan is to "not" engage the terrans death ball. don't lose probes, so spend your minerals on cannons, gateways, warp prisms, more nexus...
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Only question i have: Can widow mines attache themselves to other widow mines?
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On June 10 2012 02:24 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:19 Alexj wrote:On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote: Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash? We're talking about mech in HotS here. Zealots will melt to battle helions, immortals and stalkers will melt to warhounds. So yeah, what do I spend minerals on? Re: widow mine splash, the devs said they haven't decided whether it will damage friendlies or not. so they are going mech right? that means they are less mobile than you. spend minerals on nexus on opposite sides of the map, and buy cannons. You think cannons are useless against hellions? they aren't, and that's your biggest fear if your plan is to "not" engage the terrans death ball. don't lose probes, so spend your minerals on cannons, gateways, warp prisms, more nexus... Or build that 22 ranged flying siegetank. <_<
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On June 10 2012 02:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:24 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:19 Alexj wrote:On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote: Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash? We're talking about mech in HotS here. Zealots will melt to battle helions, immortals and stalkers will melt to warhounds. So yeah, what do I spend minerals on? Re: widow mine splash, the devs said they haven't decided whether it will damage friendlies or not. so they are going mech right? that means they are less mobile than you. spend minerals on nexus on opposite sides of the map, and buy cannons. You think cannons are useless against hellions? they aren't, and that's your biggest fear if your plan is to "not" engage the terrans death ball. don't lose probes, so spend your minerals on cannons, gateways, warp prisms, more nexus... Or build that 22 ranged flying siegetank. <_<
he was looking for mineral dumping options. It's obvious that terran mech has weaker mobility except hellions, and cannons + nexus all over the map counters it. tempest will be good at sniping things but it's slow rate of fire and it's high cost isn't entirely worth it, we will just have to wait and see.
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On June 10 2012 02:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:24 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:19 Alexj wrote:On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote: Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash? We're talking about mech in HotS here. Zealots will melt to battle helions, immortals and stalkers will melt to warhounds. So yeah, what do I spend minerals on? Re: widow mine splash, the devs said they haven't decided whether it will damage friendlies or not. so they are going mech right? that means they are less mobile than you. spend minerals on nexus on opposite sides of the map, and buy cannons. You think cannons are useless against hellions? they aren't, and that's your biggest fear if your plan is to "not" engage the terrans death ball. don't lose probes, so spend your minerals on cannons, gateways, warp prisms, more nexus... Or build that 22 ranged flying siegetank. <_<
That costs more that 2 siegetanks and takes up the same supply as a colossi. It also only has 150/300 health and has a DPS of 8. I don't think we are going to see people massing these things.
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On June 10 2012 02:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:31 Mehukannu wrote:On June 10 2012 02:24 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:19 Alexj wrote:On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote: Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash? We're talking about mech in HotS here. Zealots will melt to battle helions, immortals and stalkers will melt to warhounds. So yeah, what do I spend minerals on? Re: widow mine splash, the devs said they haven't decided whether it will damage friendlies or not. so they are going mech right? that means they are less mobile than you. spend minerals on nexus on opposite sides of the map, and buy cannons. You think cannons are useless against hellions? they aren't, and that's your biggest fear if your plan is to "not" engage the terrans death ball. don't lose probes, so spend your minerals on cannons, gateways, warp prisms, more nexus... Or build that 22 ranged flying siegetank. <_< That costs more that 2 siegetanks and takes up the same supply as a colossi. It also only has 150/300 health and has a DPS of 8. I don't think we are going to see people massing these things. Why in the hell you would even think of massing that thing? You only need like 2-3 of them to force siegetanks to get off siege mode. You surely don't know how to use a 22 range properly against mech, do you? T_T Trust me, terran isn't just going to snipe that thing just like that.
On June 10 2012 02:38 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:31 Mehukannu wrote:On June 10 2012 02:24 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:19 Alexj wrote:On June 10 2012 01:59 Saechiis wrote: Also don't know what's wrong with Zealots, they're incredibly strong when you remax after a high tech 200/200 battle.
PS. once more, does the widow mine do friendly splash? We're talking about mech in HotS here. Zealots will melt to battle helions, immortals and stalkers will melt to warhounds. So yeah, what do I spend minerals on? Re: widow mine splash, the devs said they haven't decided whether it will damage friendlies or not. so they are going mech right? that means they are less mobile than you. spend minerals on nexus on opposite sides of the map, and buy cannons. You think cannons are useless against hellions? they aren't, and that's your biggest fear if your plan is to "not" engage the terrans death ball. don't lose probes, so spend your minerals on cannons, gateways, warp prisms, more nexus... Or build that 22 ranged flying siegetank. <_< he was looking for mineral dumping options. It's obvious that terran mech has weaker mobility except hellions, and cannons + nexus all over the map counters it. tempest will be good at sniping things but it's slow rate of fire and it's high cost isn't entirely worth it, we will just have to wait and see. If you can't afford to make 2-3 tempest to force mech to move. You probably deserved to lose anyway. The DPS doesn't matter that much for a unit that has 22 range and pretty high damage per hit. Basically means that you will be able to snipe one unit (siegetank, ghost, warhound) of per volley. Especially with weapon upgrades.
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Reaper range and widow mines might actually be enough to keep me playing terran, even though the other units for the other races look SO bad ass.
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Warhound = Terran Immortal? Or are they best for anti-tank, anti-colossus (siege units)?
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oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?)
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On June 10 2012 01:46 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades. Well obviously you can't just compare it head to head, because no one in their right mind is gonna try using blink stalkers against warhounds anytime soon is HotS. That's what I was showing. A Warhound is truly on the same scale as a marauder, it's just better all around and costs more to offset that. And you never fight with stalkers against marauders. In fact the goal in any PvT is to make as few stalkers as possible. And with the addition of the Warhound, that rule will still hold. And your argument of what comes out of what building gets ridiculous when you actually compare fairly. Do you know how much all of the buildings and research to have those choices costs? Toss doesn't automatically start with all of their tech.
Kind of like how Every race has to tech to their units. All the buildings and resources? It's 1 Cyber Core and you have access to 3, Twilight Council and 1 more Tech structure and that's as far as most Toss goes. Each new factory requires 100 gas, 25 for a Tech Lab that most units require and an Armoury for some. Not to mention the difficulty in Tech switching for Terrans. Toss production is streamlined mainly through 1 building that gives them all of their core units. 1 150 Mineral no Gas building at that.
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On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?)
I like the idea a lot. It is a high cost, low impact unit that is more about long term planning. Rather than a flying, "I kill all the flying stuff now" unit. I am not sure where it fits into the match up, but I am sure it will go somewhere.
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On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?)
I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens.
Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer.
Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races.
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On June 10 2012 03:16 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:46 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades. Well obviously you can't just compare it head to head, because no one in their right mind is gonna try using blink stalkers against warhounds anytime soon is HotS. That's what I was showing. A Warhound is truly on the same scale as a marauder, it's just better all around and costs more to offset that. And you never fight with stalkers against marauders. In fact the goal in any PvT is to make as few stalkers as possible. And with the addition of the Warhound, that rule will still hold. And your argument of what comes out of what building gets ridiculous when you actually compare fairly. Do you know how much all of the buildings and research to have those choices costs? Toss doesn't automatically start with all of their tech. Kind of like how Every race has to tech to their units. All the buildings and resources? It's 1 Cyber Core and you have access to 3, Twilight Council and 1 more Tech structure and that's as far as most Toss goes. Each new factory requires 100 gas, 25 for a Tech Lab that most units require and an Armoury for some. Not to mention the difficulty in Tech switching for Terrans. Toss production is streamlined mainly through 1 building that gives them all of their core units. 1 150 Mineral no Gas building at that. I was pointing to the fact that you derailed the discussion with that comment. We were talking about the current stats of the Warhound, and how they literally make it the mech mirror-image of the marauder.
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On June 10 2012 03:02 Chicken Chaser wrote: Warhound = Terran Immortal? Or are they best for anti-tank, anti-colossus (siege units)? From what I've understood, they serve two main purposes:
1) Breaking siege lines in early TvT when the tank numbers aren't too high 2) As a general anti-protoss unit for mech, since most protoss units are mechanical they will be able to do sick DPS in most situations.
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On June 10 2012 03:02 Chicken Chaser wrote: Warhound = Terran Immortal? Or are they best for anti-tank, anti-colossus (siege units)? It seems like they're more super-marauders than anything else. I think the basic idea is that they're a strong, easy to mass factory unit to support the mass tank that's a staple of mech play.
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Is the Warhound able to attack non-mechanical units?
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On June 10 2012 03:21 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?) I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens. Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer. Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races.
Yeah you're right, i would hope it doesn't have energy.
Hm, what is protoss' answer to warhound/hellion? They could add colossi but you can just add vikings. I guess they want them to use the tempest (and possibly carrier, and maybe even phoenix/voidray) to force vikings from terran? But wouldn't that be boring? You just mass viking vs any protoss air unit. I guess in BW you massed goliaths vs carrier, but I think they should try (if they haven't) to make it more dynamic than just having 1 unit as an answer for all of protoss's stargate units. I wonder how you can get the vikings to the tempest? Wouldn't it be hard to make maps where tempest can't abuse too many areas? Or maybe the tempest is that siege unit vs mech, forcing mech to reposition -- not necessarily defensively, but perhaps offensively to force the protoss to reposition his tempests.
Also, carriers beat vikings in supply right? Maybe they will actually need to take the carrier out because it may be too hard to deal with them with just vikings + turrets. Maybe the BC's new speed will help them deal with Carriers even more though? (chase them down)
Too bad you can't use redline AND yamato haha, imagine a BC flying to get into position to yamato a tempest. That shit could be epic to see.
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On June 10 2012 03:23 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:16 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:46 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades. Well obviously you can't just compare it head to head, because no one in their right mind is gonna try using blink stalkers against warhounds anytime soon is HotS. That's what I was showing. A Warhound is truly on the same scale as a marauder, it's just better all around and costs more to offset that. And you never fight with stalkers against marauders. In fact the goal in any PvT is to make as few stalkers as possible. And with the addition of the Warhound, that rule will still hold. And your argument of what comes out of what building gets ridiculous when you actually compare fairly. Do you know how much all of the buildings and research to have those choices costs? Toss doesn't automatically start with all of their tech. Kind of like how Every race has to tech to their units. All the buildings and resources? It's 1 Cyber Core and you have access to 3, Twilight Council and 1 more Tech structure and that's as far as most Toss goes. Each new factory requires 100 gas, 25 for a Tech Lab that most units require and an Armoury for some. Not to mention the difficulty in Tech switching for Terrans. Toss production is streamlined mainly through 1 building that gives them all of their core units. 1 150 Mineral no Gas building at that. I was pointing to the fact that you derailed the discussion with that comment. We were talking about the current stats of the Warhound, and how they literally make it the mech mirror-image of the marauder.
My response was towards you and other people comparing Warhounds with Stalkers. This is just like the Roach vs Stalker debate all over again. All of these units serve different roles, and you can't compare them without looking at production (since I have to spell it out, mobility and warp-ins), infrastructure and upgrade differences.
It's not as simple as Warhounds > Stalkers as most posters seem to be making it out to be.
As for comparing it with the Marauder, that point I agree on and posted about earlier.
On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are.
On June 10 2012 03:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:21 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?) I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens. Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer. Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races. Yeah you're right, i would hope it doesn't have energy. Hm, what is protoss' answer to warhound/hellion? They could add colossi but you can just add vikings. I guess they want them to use the tempest (and possibly carrier, and maybe even phoenix/voidray) to force vikings from terran? But wouldn't that be boring? You just mass viking vs any protoss air unit. I guess in BW you massed goliaths vs carrier, but I think they should try (if they haven't) to make it more dynamic than just having 1 unit as an answer for all of protoss's stargate units. I wonder how you can get the vikings to the tempest? Wouldn't it be hard to make maps where tempest can't abuse too many areas? Or maybe the tempest is that siege unit vs mech, forcing mech to reposition -- not necessarily defensively, but perhaps offensively to force the protoss to reposition his tempests. Also, carriers beat vikings in supply right? Maybe they will actually need to take the carrier out because it may be too hard to deal with them with just vikings + turrets. Maybe the BC's new speed will help them deal with Carriers even more though? (chase them down) Too bad you can't use redline AND yamato haha, imagine a BC flying to get into position to yamato a tempest. That shit could be epic to see.
I forgot, Banshees as well. Terran already has 6 energy using units.
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Well Thors are decent against protoss air when mech'ing, so long as he doesn't catch you off guard with 10 carriers when you only have 2 thors. I mean, your mech should be way ahead on upgrades for a while, giving you time to add vikings. If it's like 4 thors (which you should have a few of to tank late game) and they have 6 voids, it's not too bad, especially if you brought SCVs with you. I mean, not like you won't be scanning around to make sure you know what he's doing. Yeah, 10 thors isn't gonna do anything to 10 carriers, but again that's why you get vikings. Then you could even get some BCs for yamato. But the thor splash still helps a lot. Void rays stack so much and they're slow to split up. Carrier don't seem to take as much damage or maybe it's just cus they have so much HP.
Anyways, seems like the design in WoL made terran more diverse (which is good! thus allowing them to transition easier, without making their army weaker -- think tanks and medivacs on bio in TvZ, think ghosts and vikings in bio TvP, think banshees and vikings with mech TvZ, etc.) There's no pure anything anymore, except for the early/game like in TvZ where you can stick with bio (though in the midgame you'll need medivacs)
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On June 10 2012 03:21 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?) I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens. Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer. Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races.
Too late. You forgot banshee
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What happens if you load a unit with a mine on it into a transport?
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Now the big question is can u put the mines into a medivac ? thatd be pretty interesting, gonna pay the protoss back for forcefielding ramp forever....
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I want to see speed prism+immortal drops for clearing mines... Pimpest plays, make it happen.
Also, zealot warp-in with a prism, mine attaches to warping zealot, put the prism back in transport mode to cancel the warp-in.
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Can anyone test whether Warhound's Haywire ability is affected by Immortal's hardened shield? Back when Thor's Strike Cannons had a cooldown instead of an energy cost, Immortals beat Thors on paper but got shredded when you added Strike Cannons into the equation because Strike Cannons are not affected by Hardened Shield. Immortals should still do well vs. Warhounds unless they get kited because they just hit so hard and T can't choose to focus the missiles on the Immortals, but I'm still curious.
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I can't wait to see how this will change ZvZ. Siege lines of swarm hosts are going to turn it into a MOBA.
Or perhaps Vipers will be used to abduct them and pull the swarm hosts into the waiting locusts. Can you abduct a burrowed unit?
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On June 10 2012 04:09 Kmatt wrote: I can't wait to see how this will change ZvZ. Siege lines of swarm hosts are going to turn it into a MOBA.
Or perhaps Vipers will be used to abduct them and pull the swarm hosts into the waiting locusts. Can you abduct a burrowed unit?
I'd reckon the Ultralisk burrow charge will have a thing or two to say about Swarm hosts. Also, neural parasiting the Swarm hosts right before they spawn the locusts, pimpest play in ZvZ.
ZvZ will be really interesting because of the Vipers and their -range cloud. That will force the zerg into less ranged units and more into melee and flying units instead. Lategame is going to rely on Vipers a lot because it will be the most positional unit the Zerg has because it can both create good positions and punish bad positioning by the enemy.
The consume spell is going to be so much fun, proxying an extractor to get energy near the battlefield and just pull stuff out. I will enjoy pulling scvs away while they are building something and just watch that building never complete because the terran never found out.
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Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion?
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On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote: Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion?
Maybe the screenshots on the box art will be what actual games look like.
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On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote: Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion?
Step 1: Add Vikings Step 2: Add Thors Step 3: LolVoidRays
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So I think we can all agree that the Tempest is stupid, but I'm intrigued with the crazy range. So why not just give the range upgrade to the carrier?? Not 22 obviously, but like 14-16. Oh and the mothership core is cool, I just hope they change the model, lol wtf. Just like a floating archon type thing over the nexus would be better.
I'm really satisfied with the zerg additions. but ultra charge? really?? why dont they just remove the tank from the game while they're at it. I can't believe it made it this far in the builds.
my two cents ty
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Warhound is over the top. Imagine mass stalker ball that has more health and does more demage but cost the same supply... it's insanely strong with those stats.
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On June 10 2012 04:36 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote: Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion? Step 1: Add Vikings Step 2: Add Thors Step 3: LolVoidRays
All those steps are fail as fuck. One thors are expensive as fuck. Two vikings take away from your supply of warhounds and hellions. Three LOL HIGH TEMPLAR will fuck that as well.
Edit: You guys shouldn't be theorycrafting shit right now. Its not balanced at all.
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On June 10 2012 04:48 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 04:36 HeroMystic wrote:On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote: Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion? Step 1: Add Vikings Step 2: Add Thors Step 3: LolVoidRays All those steps are fail as fuck. One thors are expensive as fuck. Two vikings take away from your supply of warhounds and hellions. Three LOL HIGH TEMPLAR will fuck that as well. Edit: You guys shouldn't be theorycrafting shit right now. Its not balanced at all. Shouldn't be theorycrafting yet you theorycraft... okay.
And that isn't Theorycraft. That's what Mech uses right now in WoL to take out Void Rays (outside of earlygame Marines).
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Thank you very much for writing of this article it is very helpful
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We want more micro units, they are adding single target units like viper is a good idea, but i dont like widow mine because is silly, stop making another gamebreak skill like ForceField, you guys need to stop making skills that is too OP early game, and too bad late game, spidermines are strong because of lack of detection from Zergs and protoss they couldnt break without have a better army ou better position and i cant see this with widow mines,because isnt a unit like vulture is just another baneling less cost effective sometimes and more cost effective sometimes, learn from mistakes why Thor is so bad? just because they are goliaths more expansive, dont make a baneling more expansive in this game.
make units who can be 50x more strong with micro like Reaver + Shuttle(BW), Burrow baneling(SC2), marine split (SC2),Hold Lurker (BW),Mutalisk Stack (BW).
i have a perfect suggestion about widow mines, transform this in a skill and give to Raven, and make PDD being a skill to the thors.
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Warhounds aren't a strict upgrade from marauders. If anything they are roughly equal, except for the fact that warhounds only cost 2 supply (an overpowered supply ratio that seems totally absurd and hopefully is a typo).
Comparing 1 Warhound (150/75) to 2 Marauders (200/50): Hound - 220 hp, 1 armor, 2.81 speed, 17.7 DPS (22.7 vs Mech) Rauders - 240 hp, 1 armor, 2.25 speed (3.38 stimmed), 13.3 DPS (20 stimmed), 26.6 DPS vs Armored (40 stimmed)
If anything, stimmed Marauders are still overall stronger than Warhounds. Warhounds seem like they would hard-counter just two units: 1) Stalkers 2) Siege Tanks
It is also worth noting that 60 health, 7 range Reapers can A-move into mass hydralisks or hydra-ling and win. Basically, they should force zerg to make roaches just like mass hellions. You could also put them BEHIND your marines and marauders to easily kill chargelots. Also, since Locusts are Light it may be worth putting Reapers into Bunkers to defend against swarm hosts.
One more thing: from watching the video with Ultralisks, it seems like Burrow Charge is no longer a Zealot-like near-instant charge. It has a finite velocity to it that is faster than regular Ultralisk speed but doesn't seem to be that much faster than Speedling speed. (there are no lings in the burrowcharge video so it's hard to tell) That means that in an Ultra-Ling army, your ultras and lings should hit the enemy line at roughly the same time - pretty cool!
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I was looking forward to Thors being gone. Now I am disappointed
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Everything about Terran just seems awful. So opponents do in fact see the timer when a mine latches onto them. Wow, thanks Blizzard.
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On June 10 2012 05:22 Trevo wrote: We want more micro units, they are adding single target units like viper is a good idea, but i dont like widow mine because is silly, stop making another gamebreak skill like ForceField, you guys need to stop making skills that is too OP early game, and too bad late game, spidermines are strong because of lack of detection from Zergs and protoss they couldnt break without have a better army ou better position and i cant see this with widow mines,because isnt a unit like vulture is just another baneling less cost effective sometimes and more cost effective sometimes, learn from mistakes why Thor is so bad? just because they are goliaths more expansive, dont make a baneling more expansive in this game.
make units who can be 50x more strong with micro like Reaver + Shuttle(BW), Burrow baneling(SC2), marine split (SC2),Hold Lurker (BW),Mutalisk Stack (BW).
i have a perfect suggestion about widow mines, transform this in a skill and give to Raven, and make PDD being a skill to the thors.
I actually think giving widow mines to Ravens would make sense.
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On June 10 2012 05:25 Piousflea wrote: Warhounds aren't a strict upgrade from marauders. If anything they are roughly equal, except for the fact that warhounds only cost 2 supply (an overpowered supply ratio that seems totally absurd and hopefully is a typo).
Comparing 1 Warhound (150/75) to 2 Marauders (200/50): Hound - 220 hp, 1 armor, 2.81 speed, 17.7 DPS (22.7 vs Mech) Rauders - 240 hp, 1 armor, 2.25 speed (3.38 stimmed), 13.3 DPS (20 stimmed), 26.6 DPS vs Armored (40 stimmed)
If anything, stimmed Marauders are still overall stronger than Warhounds. Warhounds seem like they would hard-counter just two units: 1) Stalkers 2) Siege Tanks
It is also worth noting that 60 health, 7 range Reapers can A-move into mass hydralisks or hydra-ling and win. Basically, they should force zerg to make roaches just like mass hellions. You could also put them BEHIND your marines and marauders to easily kill chargelots. Also, since Locusts are Light it may be worth putting Reapers into Bunkers to defend against swarm hosts.
While in theory, Reapers "may" seem like they'd wreck Hydras. People tend to forget that they take 45secs to build. Hydras take 33.
For comparison sake, Ghost take 40. Marines 25, Marauders 30. 45secs is a extremely long time to tie up a Barrack. I can't see them being anything more than more sturdy and useful base raiders than the current version. They'll have their uses I'm sure, but it won't be in any main engagements.
Also Marauders cost 2 supply. So it's not quite right to compare 2 Marauders vs 1 Warhound. While it'll be technically stat-wise a more cost-efficient unit, it lacks sync with Bio-Benefits such as Medivacs.
On June 10 2012 05:28 zmansman17 wrote: Everything about Terran just seems awful. So opponents do in fact see the timer when a mine latches onto them. Wow, thanks Blizzard.
Didn't they say somewhere that they don't expect any pro-players to have the AOE damage affect them? 10 seconds is a very long time before detonation.
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On June 10 2012 04:48 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 04:36 HeroMystic wrote:On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote: Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion? Step 1: Add Vikings Step 2: Add Thors Step 3: LolVoidRays All those steps are fail as fuck. One thors are expensive as fuck. Two vikings take away from your supply of warhounds and hellions. Three LOL HIGH TEMPLAR will fuck that as well. Edit: You guys shouldn't be theorycrafting shit right now. Its not balanced at all.
Lol what. Vikings and thors work very well. If you spot toss's tech switch or them adding starport tech, it's no problem at all. Actually unless they are able to get mass carriers, any starport air will be a waste of money because it's unupgraded.
Thors are not that expensive for their value. Vikings take away from your supply...? And voidrays don't...? Yeah and I guess you won't have neither tank nor ghost to handle the HTs. Oh wait, you can just spread your vikings or dodge storms.
On June 10 2012 05:29 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 05:22 Trevo wrote: We want more micro units, they are adding single target units like viper is a good idea, but i dont like widow mine because is silly, stop making another gamebreak skill like ForceField, you guys need to stop making skills that is too OP early game, and too bad late game, spidermines are strong because of lack of detection from Zergs and protoss they couldnt break without have a better army ou better position and i cant see this with widow mines,because isnt a unit like vulture is just another baneling less cost effective sometimes and more cost effective sometimes, learn from mistakes why Thor is so bad? just because they are goliaths more expansive, dont make a baneling more expansive in this game.
make units who can be 50x more strong with micro like Reaver + Shuttle(BW), Burrow baneling(SC2), marine split (SC2),Hold Lurker (BW),Mutalisk Stack (BW).
i have a perfect suggestion about widow mines, transform this in a skill and give to Raven, and make PDD being a skill to the thors. I actually think giving widow mines to Ravens would make sense.
HOLY SHIT. Someone go suggest this lol! I would be fine with thors having an energy bar again. It would make air play harder though, but that's not supposed to be "viable" anyways. Actually maybe widow mines would be more useful for air play than PDDs. Maybe you could bring a couple thors with medivacs with your air fleets for air support and to drop some PDDs, kekek.
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They need to change the name of the Widow mine.. after hearing a ton of casters say it, it sounds like they're saying "little mine" as if they were talking to a baby.
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On June 10 2012 05:47 Xpace wrote: They need to change the name of the Widow mine.. after hearing a ton of casters say it, it sounds like they're saying "little mine" as if they were talking to a baby.
haha now i'll keep hearing it like that ;O good point tho
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Merge please merge this with the larger thread please. Have to keep looking back and forth both topics cover the same thing.
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Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss.
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This is good because now every race can get free kills. 
Zerg now has Abduct and Locusts for a guaranteed kill. Abduct requires an army but that's not really an issue. In addition anything killed by Locusts will be 100% cost efficient. Terran now has Widow Mine attachment for a guaranteed kill. There is no way to remove the mine. Also I think killing your own unit will cause the mine to blow up early. Protoss has Entomb for guaranteed enemy income loss, and the surprise factor of Tempests coupled with the safety net of Mass Recall, for guaranteed free kills.
What I mean by a free kill is destroying something belonging to your opponent with no losses to your own units or structures.
This is shaping up to be great!
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I was just watching MLG with Day[9] that was casting a HOTS game. And the first thing I was thinking was WTF. So many things in the gameplay is stupid. The main thing I really REALLY hate about HOTS from what I saw (TvZ) was that everything is too powerful and everything happens too quickly. There is never time to react. When a Viper pulls a sieged tank, you can't do anything about it. When a Widow Mine attaches itself to a unit, there's nothing you can do. When an Ultralisk does that burrow charge thing, there's nothing you can do either. I think that RTS without reaction time is not RTS.
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On June 10 2012 06:00 sorrowptoss wrote: I was just watching MLG with Day[9] that was casting a HOTS game. And the first thing I was thinking was WTF. So many things in the gameplay is stupid. The main thing I really REALLY hate about HOTS from what I saw (TvZ) was that everything is too powerful and everything happens too quickly. There is never time to react. When a Viper pulls a sieged tank, you can't do anything about it. When a Widow Mine attaches itself to a unit, there's nothing you can do. When an Ultralisk does that burrow charge thing, there's nothing you can do either. I think that RTS without reaction time is not RTS. this is actually like irradiate, when irradiate is casted, you can't do nothing, and it's cool, it create the "WOW" moment.
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On June 10 2012 06:00 sorrowptoss wrote: I was just watching MLG with Day[9] that was casting a HOTS game. And the first thing I was thinking was WTF. So many things in the gameplay is stupid. The main thing I really REALLY hate about HOTS from what I saw (TvZ) was that everything is too powerful and everything happens too quickly. There is never time to react. When a Viper pulls a sieged tank, you can't do anything about it. When a Widow Mine attaches itself to a unit, there's nothing you can do. When an Ultralisk does that burrow charge thing, there's nothing you can do either. I think that RTS without reaction time is not RTS.
There are so many spells in BW also that leaves no time for reasction :S.
When Viper pulls a siege thank, there's nothing u can do. Right, i agree. When a widow mine attach itself, u ahve to split your army up to avoid AoE dmg => you can do Ultralisk burrow charge, well you can do things like split up your army to avoid the cleave, etc.
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On June 10 2012 06:05 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:00 sorrowptoss wrote: I was just watching MLG with Day[9] that was casting a HOTS game. And the first thing I was thinking was WTF. So many things in the gameplay is stupid. The main thing I really REALLY hate about HOTS from what I saw (TvZ) was that everything is too powerful and everything happens too quickly. There is never time to react. When a Viper pulls a sieged tank, you can't do anything about it. When a Widow Mine attaches itself to a unit, there's nothing you can do. When an Ultralisk does that burrow charge thing, there's nothing you can do either. I think that RTS without reaction time is not RTS. There are so many spells in BW also that leaves no time for reasction :S. When Viper pulls a siege thank, there's nothing u can do. Right, i agree. When a widow mine attach itself, u ahve to split your army up to avoid AoE dmg => you can do Ultralisk burrow charge, well you can do things like split up your army to avoid the cleave, etc.
That though only works with Biological units splitting Mech units is a bad idea if the Ultra is already at close range ^^ They move way to slow to split them up later
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Can anyone confirm that the Reaper is 7 range?
I've also read conflicting reports on Reaper speed. Some say its gone, some say that only the factory requirement is gone.
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Reaper Speed is Gone
7 range is not confirmed im not sure about that
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I'm curious about mothership core's Energize Can i use this to Nexus for extra chronoboost?
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Holy god, Terran is shaping up to be freaking TERRIFYING.
Protoss air... y'know I'd really like a shorter range air attack that does splash, because as of right now I still just see a Zerg making Corruptors and continuing to demolish Protoss air/Colossus play, and I'm not sure the Tempest's range will TRULY be enough to fend off the Corruptor air dominance.
But as a whole I'm still really unsure, everything seems balanced to some degree, but noone has really gone out and tried to really make the broken unit compositions and strategies so /shrug.
In the end, I'd rather see like 15 - 17 range ground attack on the Tempest and 10 range air attack with some splash.
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am i the only one finding the 3 supply for oracle alot?
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On June 10 2012 06:17 Khalleb wrote: am i the only one finding the 3 supply for oracle alot?
You aren't going to have that many of them, so I think it is ok.
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It doesnt matter if Reaper is 7 range i think.As we can see his Build time has been cahnged once again to 40 from 45.Same as it was in the BETA of WOL,but no D-Charge vs Buildings.This may make him more viable as opening and we can defend our base or harras Zerg with them much better.If not so quik,he will be like no stimmed marine with an autoheal skill.I think it will be usefull.
Energize will improve Nexus and make them recover all its energy.
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You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'.
The Stephano build isn't a style, it's a build. More specifically it is a build that maxes on roaches as fast as possible hoping to score an early kill/crippling blow. It is not a dependable style to employ in a matchup.
A style would be something like roach/hydra with drops, muta/ling or ultralisk/infestor/ling. But the only style that reliably works is infestor/brood lord, any other composition can't compete with lategame protoss. That is why i could see this becoming a problem, since the Tempest seems to counter it pretty damn well while at the same time not having a natural nemesis.
Your adding protoss Tempest in while forgetting all the good zerg stuff added. Deathballs shouldn't kill zerg anymore, at least not Protoss deathballs, they have alot of options to split the opponent up/tear him apart. As long as the maps are good the MU will be great. Collosus wont be an issue anymore, and to be honest with you im thinking Tempest is going to be good for Defense, or for Containment. It wont be a unit that makes or breaks a composition, its too slow/etc.
I didn't forget anything? I mentioned Abduct, it has 7 range, Tempest has 22, there is absolutely no way abduct is going to function as a good counter to Tempest. I suppose i should mention the fact that the Blinding Cloud only affect biological units. Means it won't be useful vs Protoss.
Tempest is slow? You know what else is slow? Brood Lords are the slowest fighting unit in the game, and judging by that video the Tempests are faster.
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7 range reaper is so broken in tvt. you can kite marines and the only early game counter is a marauder
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On June 10 2012 06:17 Zambrah wrote: Holy god, Terran is shaping up to be freaking TERRIFYING.
Protoss air... y'know I'd really like a shorter range air attack that does splash, because as of right now I still just see a Zerg making Corruptors and continuing to demolish Protoss air/Colossus play, and I'm not sure the Tempest's range will TRULY be enough to fend off the Corruptor air dominance.
But as a whole I'm still really unsure, everything seems balanced to some degree, but noone has really gone out and tried to really make the broken unit compositions and strategies so /shrug.
In the end, I'd rather see like 15 - 17 range ground attack on the Tempest and 10 range air attack with some splash.
Blink Stalkers work pretty well vs Corruptors.Protoss dont need antiair Ship vs them,because Corruptprs range is so short(6) and Zerg need to get pretty close to P deathball to try snipe Colossi.Carriers make you lose lot of supply,so you cant protect them with stalkers or Voids.Tempest are useless for me.No role for them,and real no good damage vs nothing of Z army
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Seems my idea is being accepted here so i made a topic in blizzard forum:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5753735539#1
- Raven Seeker missile removed from the game. new skill Widow mine they can target air and ground units and burrowed into the ground. Why this change? widow mine will be the new seeker missile but with map control when burrow the mine. only will be invisible when burrowed and will be detonate more quick than is now. Why this will not be Overpower? well look seeker missile right now but give them the option to burrow like spider mines.
-Thor PDD is now a thor skill with a new animation for the thors. Why this change? now they can counter better magic box mutalisks. Why this will not be strong? Thor are now countered by Vipers late game and now they can be infested easily.
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On June 10 2012 06:24 PredY wrote: 7 range reaper is so broken in tvt. you can kite marines and the only early game counter is a marauder Yeah I'm worried about how the new units will change TvT. Marine tank is such a fun positional battle, I really hope that the battle hellion and warhound don't ruin that.
Plus yeah TvT is going to be reaper vs reaper early game lol. Which when I think of it sounds pretty cool actually.
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On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss.
You have to be kidding me.
Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.)
Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all.
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing!
In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong.
The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore.
HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly.
Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit.
The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D
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On June 10 2012 06:34 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:24 PredY wrote: 7 range reaper is so broken in tvt. you can kite marines and the only early game counter is a marauder Yeah I'm worried about how the new units will change TvT. Marine tank is such a fun positional battle, I really hope that the battle hellion and warhound don't ruin that. Plus yeah TvT is going to be reaper vs reaper early game lol. Which when I think of it sounds pretty cool actually. it might sound cool but.. forcing you to make techlab rax every tvt is not good. is 7 range confirmed? im worried if it is true
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On June 10 2012 06:36 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:34 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 06:24 PredY wrote: 7 range reaper is so broken in tvt. you can kite marines and the only early game counter is a marauder Yeah I'm worried about how the new units will change TvT. Marine tank is such a fun positional battle, I really hope that the battle hellion and warhound don't ruin that. Plus yeah TvT is going to be reaper vs reaper early game lol. Which when I think of it sounds pretty cool actually. it might sound cool but.. forcing you to make techlab rax every tvt is not good. is 7 range confirmed? im worried if it is true I just meant reaper vs reaper battles would be cool chasing eachother up and down cliffs. Not that it would necessarily a good thing.
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Stargate play does not die to banshees.... Omg!
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On June 10 2012 06:29 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:17 Zambrah wrote: Holy god, Terran is shaping up to be freaking TERRIFYING.
Protoss air... y'know I'd really like a shorter range air attack that does splash, because as of right now I still just see a Zerg making Corruptors and continuing to demolish Protoss air/Colossus play, and I'm not sure the Tempest's range will TRULY be enough to fend off the Corruptor air dominance.
But as a whole I'm still really unsure, everything seems balanced to some degree, but noone has really gone out and tried to really make the broken unit compositions and strategies so /shrug.
In the end, I'd rather see like 15 - 17 range ground attack on the Tempest and 10 range air attack with some splash. Blink Stalkers work pretty well vs Corruptors.Protoss dont need antiair Ship vs them,because Corruptprs range is so short(6) and Zerg need to get pretty close to P deathball to try snipe Colossi.Carriers make you lose lot of supply,so you cant protect them with stalkers or Voids.Tempest are useless for me.No role for them,and real no good damage vs nothing of Z army
I don't think Blink Stalkers are going to function quite well enough to truly fend off Corruptors.
Versus the Tempest, I'm not worried about, they're WAAAY off and virtually unable to be attacked, but things like Colossus and any other air unit is probably totally and utterly boned. And that kind of sucks when every new unit the Protoss has is an air unit.
Maybe I'm underestimating the impact the Mothership Core will have, but as of right now I see the other races getting things that would seem to really smash Gateway units, and Zerg in particular seems to have a large plethora of answers to Protosses big high tech threats.
But again, I really don't know what to think as of right now, everything seems really topsy turvy and its incredibly easy to imagine someone going a unit comp thats just unstoppable in any of the races.
I'm just not really comfortable with how many of the Protoss high tier units are susceptible to the same unit.
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On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
Good luck with FFE in pvp i bet 4 gate warp prism every game will beat that even with a mothership core. teleporting uses 25 energy so you might not be able to teleport and defend your main nexus.
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On June 10 2012 06:36 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:34 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 06:24 PredY wrote: 7 range reaper is so broken in tvt. you can kite marines and the only early game counter is a marauder Yeah I'm worried about how the new units will change TvT. Marine tank is such a fun positional battle, I really hope that the battle hellion and warhound don't ruin that. Plus yeah TvT is going to be reaper vs reaper early game lol. Which when I think of it sounds pretty cool actually. it might sound cool but.. forcing you to make techlab rax every tvt is not good. is 7 range confirmed? im worried if it is true
IF Reapers really get 7 range they would outrange Marines in Bunkers that is kind of fucked up. Yeah no way to skip a techlab-rax
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On June 10 2012 06:42 lorkac wrote: Stargate play does not die to banshees.... Omg!
This was the biggest thing I noticed
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wowowow HOTS is really shapig up.
as i was not present in the competitve scene from sc1 to sc:bw or sc:bw to sc2, im frightened by how the metagame is gonna go nuts.
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On June 10 2012 06:22 Dvriel wrote: It doesnt matter if Reaper is 7 range i think.As we can see his Build time has been cahnged once again to 40 from 45.Same as it was in the BETA of WOL,but no D-Charge vs Buildings.This may make him more viable as opening and we can defend our base or harras Zerg with them much better.If not so quik,he will be like no stimmed marine with an autoheal skill.I think it will be usefull.
Energize will improve Nexus and make them recover all its energy.
Reapers should have shorter range than marines though. They use PISTOLS instead of a RIFLE.
I say change the range back to 4, up the light dmg to 8, and give them back their speed upgrade available at Barracks tech.
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On June 10 2012 06:43 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
Good luck with FFE in pvp i bet 4 gate warp prism every game will beat that even with a mothership core. teleporting uses 25 energy so you might not be able to teleport and defend your main nexus.
I wasn't referring to using a forge for a cannon expand. Doing a nexus first or a 1 gate FE would be great though
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On June 10 2012 07:08 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:43 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
Good luck with FFE in pvp i bet 4 gate warp prism every game will beat that even with a mothership core. teleporting uses 25 energy so you might not be able to teleport and defend your main nexus. I wasn't referring to using a forge for a cannon expand. Doing a nexus first or a 1 gate FE would be great though 
Hmmz might still lose to a hardcore 4 gate but it makes it more viable.
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On June 10 2012 07:08 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:43 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
Good luck with FFE in pvp i bet 4 gate warp prism every game will beat that even with a mothership core. teleporting uses 25 energy so you might not be able to teleport and defend your main nexus. I wasn't referring to using a forge for a cannon expand. Doing a nexus first or a 1 gate FE would be great though 
So uncreative. 1base DT defended by a mothership core with a fast nexus transition (the core bouncing to the natural) will be awesome!
You know what's better? People can open stargate without dying automatically to fast DTs.
You know what's even better? 1-3 ranged tempests to counter broodlord comps instead of vortex.
Sick sick sick!
Nexus rush cheese? Nexus first inside enemy base, make a mothership at the main, teleport over and purify the enemy while zealots rush in
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On June 10 2012 07:09 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 07:08 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 06:43 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
Good luck with FFE in pvp i bet 4 gate warp prism every game will beat that even with a mothership core. teleporting uses 25 energy so you might not be able to teleport and defend your main nexus. I wasn't referring to using a forge for a cannon expand. Doing a nexus first or a 1 gate FE would be great though  Hmmz might still lose to a hardcore 4 gate but it makes it more viable.
I think it will come down to micro. Obviously, if you let a probe slip in your base for sight on the high ground and then warp in from a proxy pylon and you go for produciton, the FE player won't be able to defend two fronts. But if the 4 gate is forced to attack the natural, the mothership core will hold it just fine. That thing can 3 shot stalkers!
One thing's for sure - detection is going to become even more important when playing against protoss. I imagine an oracle 3gate rush can hit about the same time as a standard dt rush. Kind of steals some of the former glory of the dt as a cloaked unit, but sure is going to be fun to use
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On June 10 2012 07:15 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 07:08 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 06:43 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
Good luck with FFE in pvp i bet 4 gate warp prism every game will beat that even with a mothership core. teleporting uses 25 energy so you might not be able to teleport and defend your main nexus. I wasn't referring to using a forge for a cannon expand. Doing a nexus first or a 1 gate FE would be great though  So uncreative. 1base DT defended by a mothership core with a fast nexus transition (the core bouncing to the natural) will be awesome! You know what's better? People can open stargate without dying automatically to fast DTs. You know what's even better? 1-3 ranged tempests to counter broodlord comps instead of vortex. Sick sick sick! Nexus rush cheese? Nexus first inside enemy base, make a mothership at the main, teleport over and purify the enemy while zealots rush in 
Haha, seriously. Imagine when a zerg steals your natural with a hatch, and then you steal theirs with a NEXUS! What's worse than getting bunkered or cannoned in? Getting PURIFED in, that's what! :D
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That the redline reactors costs 100 energy is a huge design flaw. For just 25 more energy you get yamoto blast. No one will use redline reactor when yamoto blash is so much better.
I suggest changing redline reactor to a non-energy ability instead, maybe with cooldown of 60 seconds or so.
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On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote: You have to be kidding me.
Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.)
Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all.
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing!
In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong.
The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore.
HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly.
Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit.
The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D
this is a very encouraging post, and i hope it turns out the way you're describing it. i'm still kind of worried though, that abduct is going to discourage making small numbers of high value units like colossi, tanks etc... i suppose depending on the cost, making tons of vipers could become cost prohibitive and tie up food that could be fighting units. but like, say terran is just barely keeping away muta harrasment, but zerg makes one viper, abducts the critically positioned thor and kills it, then moves in... will that de-incentivize making a handful of key thors as a way to deal with mutas?
i dunno, just some thoughts.
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Does the mothership core's attack hit air?
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Anyone know about any changes to corrupter/nydus worms? They still the same as in WOL?
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anyone know why they changed the name of spider mines to widow mines? doesnt really make much sense to me
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On June 10 2012 04:46 -Kira wrote: Warhound is over the top. Imagine mass stalker ball that has more health and does more demage but cost the same supply... it's insanely strong with those stats. The only thing about the Warhound that I find to be painfully, obviously broken is its supply cost (assuming it's listed correctly in the OP). 150m/75g, 220 HP, 1 armor, 23 damage range 7 and a special ability... for the same supply cost as a roach, stalker or marauder? With those stats, Warhound needs to cost at least 3 supply.
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widow - black widow? since they are changed and really not the same thing they changed their name as well (just like lost temple - shattered temple)
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I hate the name "mothership core". I like the concept, however Should help PvP a lot. P gets its Planetary Fortress and Orbital in one.
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These are cool and everything but I want to know what the portrait or the "Avy" of the new units want to know what the warhound driver sounds like, etc.
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On June 10 2012 06:22 drbrown wrote:Show nested quote +You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'. The Stephano build isn't a style, it's a build. More specifically it is a build that maxes on roaches as fast as possible hoping to score an early kill/crippling blow. It is not a dependable style to employ in a matchup. A style would be something like roach/hydra with drops, muta/ling or ultralisk/infestor/ling. But the only style that reliably works is infestor/brood lord, any other composition can't compete with lategame protoss. That is why i could see this becoming a problem, since the Tempest seems to counter it pretty damn well while at the same time not having a natural nemesis. The only reason Zerg is forced to go infestor / broodlord lategame is because nothing else can deal with colossi. When Zerg has Vipers with Abduct, this won't be the case anymore.
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On June 10 2012 08:05 GenesisX wrote: anyone know why they changed the name of spider mines to widow mines? doesnt really make much sense to me
Because they're totally different. Widow mines take up supply, are built out of the factory, and cost gas. It's just as big or bigger than the difference between a vulture and a hellion.
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On June 10 2012 06:32 Trevo wrote:Seems my idea is being accepted here so i made a topic in blizzard forum:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5753735539#1- RavenSeeker missile removed from the game. new skill Widow mine they can target air and ground units and burrowed into the ground. Why this change? widow mine will be the new seeker missile but with map control when burrow the mine. only will be invisible when burrowed and will be detonate more quick than is now. Why this will not be Overpower? well look seeker missile right now but give them the option to burrow like spider mines. -ThorPDD is now a thor skill with a new animation for the thors. Why this change? now they can counter better magic box mutalisks. Why this will not be strong? Thor are now countered by Vipers late game and now they can be infested easily.
giving thors PDD, are you pants-on-head retarded? just think about how insanely broken that would be....
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My question is, will bio even be an option in TvP anymore? What will the terran have to scout when deciding to go Bio? Is mech TvP going to be an OPTION or standard play from now on? Although it was harder on the terran, I rather enjoy the bio style in TvP.
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Read Kennegit's notes and it suggests the widow mines only splash the plane in which its target exists, so regardless of whether it's going to do friendly splash or not you could use it to defend cloackshees without putting your workers at risk.
I wonder if you could safely power factories without going Starport this way.
On June 10 2012 08:37 BeholdOblivion wrote: My question is, will bio even be an option in TvP anymore? What will the terran have to scout when deciding to go Bio? Is mech TvP going to be an OPTION or standard play from now on? Although it was harder on the terran, I rather enjoy the bio style in TvP.
Protoss isn't getting any units that makes the race directly better at dealing with bio, so I don't see why bio would suddenly become obsolete. It's possible that a mech style could become strictly better though, since pure bio play is so limiting in the later stages of the game.
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On June 10 2012 08:35 obsidia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:32 Trevo wrote:Seems my idea is being accepted here so i made a topic in blizzard forum:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5753735539#1- RavenSeeker missile removed from the game. new skill Widow mine they can target air and ground units and burrowed into the ground. Why this change? widow mine will be the new seeker missile but with map control when burrow the mine. only will be invisible when burrowed and will be detonate more quick than is now. Why this will not be Overpower? well look seeker missile right now but give them the option to burrow like spider mines. -ThorPDD is now a thor skill with a new animation for the thors. Why this change? now they can counter better magic box mutalisks. Why this will not be strong? Thor are now countered by Vipers late game and now they can be infested easily. giving thors PDD, are you pants-on-head retarded? just think about how insanely broken that would be.... To be honest, that's not really broken.
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On June 10 2012 08:37 BeholdOblivion wrote: My question is, will bio even be an option in TvP anymore? What will the terran have to scout when deciding to go Bio? Is mech TvP going to be an OPTION or standard play from now on? Although it was harder on the terran, I rather enjoy the bio style in TvP.
I actually think Bio will still be the stronger option vs P. I don't see Protoss units outside of Mothership Core affecting Bio play much.
EDIT: Double posted. Figured there would've been more posts after I typed this up.
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On June 10 2012 08:18 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:22 drbrown wrote:You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'. The Stephano build isn't a style, it's a build. More specifically it is a build that maxes on roaches as fast as possible hoping to score an early kill/crippling blow. It is not a dependable style to employ in a matchup. A style would be something like roach/hydra with drops, muta/ling or ultralisk/infestor/ling. But the only style that reliably works is infestor/brood lord, any other composition can't compete with lategame protoss. That is why i could see this becoming a problem, since the Tempest seems to counter it pretty damn well while at the same time not having a natural nemesis. The only reason Zerg is forced to go infestor / broodlord lategame is because nothing else can deal with colossi. When Zerg has Vipers with Abduct, this won't be the case anymore.
I still fail to see how abduct makes colossi easier to deal with. You are talking about using a R7 spell from an armored 200 Gas Unit with 120 HP on a Unit surrounded by R6 Stalkers which happen to have bonus dmg against armored AND are most prbably at +3 Attack as the viper comes with Hivetech and needs Flyer Carapace. Also just 1 - 3 Tempests around your new shiny Deathball will just kill any expensive Unit (Viper, Infestor, Broodlord) before they even get in range. And if Toss really is about to lose their deathball and evil zergies are chewing through the stalker wall, there is still recall left to safe the precious 6 Supply units.... or just snipe Overseers with 22 Range and turn your entire army invisible.
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i really hope they overthink the thor once again such a clumsy unit
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On June 10 2012 08:46 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 08:37 BeholdOblivion wrote: My question is, will bio even be an option in TvP anymore? What will the terran have to scout when deciding to go Bio? Is mech TvP going to be an OPTION or standard play from now on? Although it was harder on the terran, I rather enjoy the bio style in TvP. I actually think Bio will still be the stronger option vs P. I don't see Protoss units outside of Mothership Core affecting Bio play much. EDIT: Double posted. Figured there would've been more posts after I typed this up.
Very true, I didn't think that far ahead.
This is what I've gathered. Yeah, the battle hellion and warhound are very strong and seemingly viable, but when you are playing mech, your biggest weakness is mobility. I don't know why anyone would CHOOSE mech against protoss when you have to worry about things like proxy pylons and warp prisms. Sensor towers and widow mines will help. Unless it's shown that the lategame mech army vs protoss is very strong (causing players to defend and aim for the "terran death ball"), I don't see why you wouldn't go bio either.
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Tempest so expensive yet dps is lower than a stimmed marine lol
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On June 10 2012 08:35 obsidia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:32 Trevo wrote:Seems my idea is being accepted here so i made a topic in blizzard forum:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5753735539#1- RavenSeeker missile removed from the game. new skill Widow mine they can target air and ground units and burrowed into the ground. Why this change? widow mine will be the new seeker missile but with map control when burrow the mine. only will be invisible when burrowed and will be detonate more quick than is now. Why this will not be Overpower? well look seeker missile right now but give them the option to burrow like spider mines. -ThorPDD is now a thor skill with a new animation for the thors. Why this change? now they can counter better magic box mutalisks. Why this will not be strong? Thor are now countered by Vipers late game and now they can be infested easily. giving thors PDD, are you pants-on-head retarded? just think about how insanely broken that would be....
Just stop posting on game design trevo thx
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On June 09 2012 19:36 kochujang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:33 CruelZeratul wrote:All of this seems so imba  Can't help it but fear for the qality of HotS. If everything is imba, doesn't it all equalize? Worked for Brood War :D
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On June 10 2012 08:57 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 08:18 Zato-1 wrote:On June 10 2012 06:22 drbrown wrote:You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'. The Stephano build isn't a style, it's a build. More specifically it is a build that maxes on roaches as fast as possible hoping to score an early kill/crippling blow. It is not a dependable style to employ in a matchup. A style would be something like roach/hydra with drops, muta/ling or ultralisk/infestor/ling. But the only style that reliably works is infestor/brood lord, any other composition can't compete with lategame protoss. That is why i could see this becoming a problem, since the Tempest seems to counter it pretty damn well while at the same time not having a natural nemesis. The only reason Zerg is forced to go infestor / broodlord lategame is because nothing else can deal with colossi. When Zerg has Vipers with Abduct, this won't be the case anymore. I still fail to see how abduct makes colossi easier to deal with. You are talking about using a R7 spell from an armored 200 Gas Unit with 120 HP on a Unit surrounded by R6 Stalkers which happen to have bonus dmg against armored AND are most prbably at +3 Attack as the viper comes with Hivetech and needs Flyer Carapace. Also just 1 - 3 Tempests around your new shiny Deathball will just kill any expensive Unit (Viper, Infestor, Broodlord) before they even get in range. And if Toss really is about to lose their deathball and evil zergies are chewing through the stalker wall, there is still recall left to safe the precious 6 Supply units.... or just snipe Overseers with 22 Range and turn your entire army invisible.
Abduct is at least range 9, the stat page is probably wrong.
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You could nerf thor anti air light damage, and give it PDD. That way it won't own mutas too hard. Also it will still be a good support unit vs non-light air like carriers and tempest late game.
Just saying an example of how you could make it work. It's not like they'd just slap the PDD on. Anyways energy on thors makes things much more dynamic.
(just too bad strike canon was pretty useless)
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YES!!!!! 7 range reapers prepare to die mineral line!
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On June 10 2012 06:32 Trevo wrote:Seems my idea is being accepted here so i made a topic in blizzard forum:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5753735539#1- RavenSeeker missile removed from the game. new skill Widow mine they can target air and ground units and burrowed into the ground. Why this change? widow mine will be the new seeker missile but with map control when burrow the mine. only will be invisible when burrowed and will be detonate more quick than is now. Why this will not be Overpower? well look seeker missile right now but give them the option to burrow like spider mines. -ThorPDD is now a thor skill with a new animation for the thors. Why this change? now they can counter better magic box mutalisks. Why this will not be strong? Thor are now countered by Vipers late game and now they can be infested easily. I really like the Mine being a unit itself. PDD on Thor is kinda dumb. They just need to nerf HSM a bit and give it a decent range.
Also I wonder if PDD effects the Viper abduct ability. Probably not but has someone tested it yet?
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I'm upset that every new protoss and zerg unit costs a massive amount of gas. I feel like terran can benefit from more of their new units.
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If a protoss upgrades their Nexus do they lose their ability to chrono boost?
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- By design, the best unit by far is the Mothership Core. It wil change all the P dinamics hugely.
- Tempest simply suck. It have a freaking low dps for huge tech, cost and production time.
- Widow mines and Viper hook are so amazing to force trading units at sick efficiency, specially aganist the expensive P units.
- Hellion will become a stample in every match up with the battle mode. Raid unit, counter to melee stamples, map control and excelent production rate at a very cheap cost.
- Warhound will be the core of TvP mech. With the current stats, it have huge dps vs mech, kinda tanky, and surprisingly cheap cost/suply (2 suply only !!). And yes, mech will be totally viable.
- Finally Z will have a huge variety of builds, plus frightening late game potential.
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On June 10 2012 09:42 Ouija wrote: If a protoss upgrades their Nexus do they lose their ability to chrono boost?
MS Core isn't a Nexus upgrade, it's actually an immobile flying unit placed above the Nexus. Think of it like a Warp Prism in phase mode with a bunch of cool spells. You would need to put it on a separate hotkey from the Nexi and it has its own health and shields.
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At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful.
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Should mention the mothership does not have cloaking field anymore
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On June 10 2012 09:49 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 09:42 Ouija wrote: If a protoss upgrades their Nexus do they lose their ability to chrono boost? MS Core isn't a Nexus upgrade, it's actually an immobile flying unit placed above the Nexus. Think of it like a Warp Prism in phase mode with a bunch of cool spells. You would need to put it on a separate hotkey from the Nexi and it has its own health and shields.
So... Marauders can't hit it? Roaches and Zerglings can't touch it either? The Purify spell probably doesn't attack fast enough to be relied solely without cannons but hmm.. interesting. Phoenixes/Vikings can snipe Mothership Cores then haha
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On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too.
How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun.......
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On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... AT the very least, it seems like Warhounds will make viable early game pushes with battle hellions. Finding ways to be aggressive should be interesting.
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On June 10 2012 10:10 Chicken Chaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 09:49 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 09:42 Ouija wrote: If a protoss upgrades their Nexus do they lose their ability to chrono boost? MS Core isn't a Nexus upgrade, it's actually an immobile flying unit placed above the Nexus. Think of it like a Warp Prism in phase mode with a bunch of cool spells. You would need to put it on a separate hotkey from the Nexi and it has its own health and shields. So... Marauders can't hit it? Roaches and Zerglings can't touch it either? The Purify spell probably doesn't attack fast enough to be relied solely without cannons but hmm.. interesting. Phoenixes/Vikings can snipe Mothership Cores then haha Actually, Purify attacks pretty fast, and it also has 13 range if the reported stats are correct, so it can take out Vikings no problem.
But I would assume that if you destroy the Nexus underneath it, it is destroyed as well unless the P player teleports it away just in time, so roach/ling isn't completely helpless. Can't be sure though.
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On June 10 2012 10:16 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... AT the very least, it seems like Warhounds will make viable early game pushes with battle hellions. Finding ways to be aggressive should be interesting. Yeah but this is part of the problem. I think about the new Terran units and they all seem like Blizzard wants Terran to end the game in the first 10 minutes/ do huge damage or die.
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On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it...
...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for.
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On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no.
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On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them.
In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine.
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On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them?
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On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine.
If a Widow mine only kills 1 Unit of a Warp-in somewhere its not going to be enough though. I don't see why this has to do 200 damage , Terran has enough stuff that is good single target but not enough area of effect that is actually decent.
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On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6...
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Wait is mothership still in the game? I know about the mothership core but can it complete the mothership?
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On June 10 2012 10:33 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. If a Widow mine only kills 1 Unit of a Warp-in somewhere its not going to be enough though. I don't see why this has to do 200 damage , Terran has enough stuff that is good single target but not enough area of effect that is actually decent. So leave more than one to defend your bases. We're talking a single supply here.
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On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D
I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy.
So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing.
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6...
It can't be, it would shut down protoss until they get collossi AND the range upgrade, which is the only unit that hits ground at more than 6 range until TEMPEST.
It seems a little much imo. 5 would make sense. Though with the warhound I am starting to wonder how stalkers will do. The cost of a warhound for its HP and the DPS against stalkers is huge, especially if missiles don't interrupt the regular attack. I think there will be changes for both OR a range upgrade for stalkers if the numbers posted here are all exact. then again thats what beta is for.
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On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time.
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On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Personally I think that energize ability is gonna be cut real soon. Probably even before beta. At the very least they'll take away the targeting structures part. It completely fucks with Chronoboost.
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On June 10 2012 10:41 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time. The unit stat page says about 6, but I'm skeptical. Most people are bad at judging ranges by eye and we only saw the mines used sparingly in a single battle report. They also say Abduct is only range 7 but I can tell that is bullshit, it's at least 9.
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing.
Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference.
Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure.
On June 10 2012 10:44 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:41 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time. The unit stat page says about 6, but I'm skeptical. Most people are bad at judging ranges by eye and we only saw the mines used sparingly in a single battle report. They also say Abduct is only range 7 but I can tell that is bullshit, it's at least 9.
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that.
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On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP.
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EMP affects buildings right?
Might be fun to EMP Mothership core in teams games.
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On June 10 2012 10:40 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It can't be, it would shut down protoss until they get collossi AND the range upgrade, which is the only unit that hits ground at more than 6 range until TEMPEST. It seems a little much imo. 5 would make sense. Though with the warhound I am starting to wonder how stalkers will do. The cost of a warhound for its HP and the DPS against stalkers is huge, especially if missiles don't interrupt the regular attack. I think there will be changes for both OR a range upgrade for stalkers if the numbers posted here are all exact. then again thats what beta is for.
The mines aren't spell damage by the way, so by definition, Immortal's shields should activate.
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP.
Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories.
I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were
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On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:44 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:41 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote: At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time. The unit stat page says about 6, but I'm skeptical. Most people are bad at judging ranges by eye and we only saw the mines used sparingly in a single battle report. They also say Abduct is only range 7 but I can tell that is bullshit, it's at least 9. Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game. They nerfed Neural Parasite because the Infestor had too much versatility with its other spells included.
Vipers are later tech, cost more gas, and are the only caster unit in the game apart from the new Oracle with no way to deal damage whatsoever. Blizz is not going to nerf the pull ability, I can almost guarantee it.
Colossi haven't been nerfed once since release either, no matter how much complaining the community has done in regards to it.
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:58 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:44 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:41 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote: [quote]Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too.
How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun.......
Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time. The unit stat page says about 6, but I'm skeptical. Most people are bad at judging ranges by eye and we only saw the mines used sparingly in a single battle report. They also say Abduct is only range 7 but I can tell that is bullshit, it's at least 9. Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game. They nerfed Neural Parasite because the Infestor had too much versatility with its other spells included. Vipers are later tech, cost more gas, and are the only caster unit in the game apart from the new Oracle with no way to deal damage whatsoever. Blizz is not going to nerf the pull ability, I can almost guarantee it. Colossi haven't been nerfed once since release either, no matter how much complaining the community has done in regards to it.
Thats fair, but infestors are still in this game and they still have their old spells. They cost a lot of gas but viper pull nullifies units moreso than neural parasite ever did in its current incarnation. We already see gas intensive infestor/BL doing well, so its not a far stretch to think that vipers will be worked in somehow. Just saying they cost gas isn't really fair, We need to see how it plays out but as it is it is crazy strong just like so so many other things in the alpha build
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On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that.
The tempest's range is contested by the unit's ridiculous cost (300/300), the fact that the range is an upgrade that costs even more, lack of splash damage, and slow recharge time. It's not going to do much all at once but the P players will have to micro them pretty hard to position them properly, and then they'll have to use them to target fire important units. Siege tanks are cheaper, have fewer tech requirements, a cheaper upgrade, and have splash damage, which is why their range is fine comparatively.
I like the Tempest, it's a great idea that will make both players micro their units very well and it has its strengths and weaknesses. I see 3-4 of them blasting away important units from long range in a fight being quite a valuable asset, especially considering you're already likely to have a Stargate for Oracle production.
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 10 2012 11:04 saltygrapes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that. The tempest's range is contested by the unit's ridiculous cost (300/300), the fact that the range is an upgrade that costs even more, lack of splash damage, and slow recharge time. It's not going to do much all at once but the P players will have to micro them pretty hard to position them properly, and then they'll have to use them to target fire important units. Siege tanks are cheaper, have fewer tech requirements, a cheaper upgrade, and have splash damage, which is why their range is fine comparatively. I like the Tempest, it's a great idea that will make both players micro their units very well and it has its strengths and weaknesses. I see 3-4 of them blasting away important units from long range in a fight being quite a valuable asset, especially considering you're already likely to have a Stargate for Oracle production.
True, I will need to play the game to see how it works out but 22 range still seems HUGEEEEEEEE. lol. Even Browder and crew are iffy about its range.
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On June 10 2012 11:08 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 11:04 saltygrapes wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that. The tempest's range is contested by the unit's ridiculous cost (300/300), the fact that the range is an upgrade that costs even more, lack of splash damage, and slow recharge time. It's not going to do much all at once but the P players will have to micro them pretty hard to position them properly, and then they'll have to use them to target fire important units. Siege tanks are cheaper, have fewer tech requirements, a cheaper upgrade, and have splash damage, which is why their range is fine comparatively. I like the Tempest, it's a great idea that will make both players micro their units very well and it has its strengths and weaknesses. I see 3-4 of them blasting away important units from long range in a fight being quite a valuable asset, especially considering you're already likely to have a Stargate for Oracle production. True, I will need to play the game to see how it works out but 22 range still seems HUGEEEEEEEE. lol. Even Browder and crew are iffy about its range. i wonder why they picked 22 as its range, seems random
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On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were  Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats: "The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds.
Damage: 60 Range: 13"
Yeah thats a bit better than a pf....
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On June 10 2012 11:28 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were  Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats: "The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds. Damage: 60 Range: 13" Yeah thats a bit better than a pf....
But it's not splash, right?
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On June 10 2012 11:28 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were  Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats: "The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds. Damage: 60 Range: 13" Yeah thats a bit better than a pf....
PF is AOE and basically unkillable with repair which are its two main strengths that the core is missing. Will the core be good against the 1 dropship marine drops here and there? Sure, if it has energy to move and transform. Will it single handedly hold off drops? Only if toss doesnt mind losing all their probes in the meantime.
If I were to pick one thing that this will help with it would be mutas, not terran drops.
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On June 10 2012 11:32 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 11:28 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were  Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats: "The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds. Damage: 60 Range: 13" Yeah thats a bit better than a pf.... But it's not splash, right?
Different take on a similar concept. You can say the MCore boosts all the macro abilities of Toss. Combining Energy Regen + Defence. It's like a merging of PF + OC, but not as specialized. On the other hand, it's much more versatile and Toss isn't locked into picking one type of building for one purpose. The Mass Recall is a different thing entirely.
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I think the mass recall is a great idea. I can't count how many times that a protoss was moving out to pressure a bit, only to find out that the terran was also pressuring and consequently losing a basetrade scenario because of terran's cost efficiency (See Squirtle vs MVP). I think that and the Mothership Core gives protoss a lot more flexibility in defending the early game especially in PvP, where I think expanding can be possible with the core able to teleport between nexi. Overall, I'm excited for these changes and I'm hoping to see how they pan out in the beta. I hope terrans aren't too discouraged, I think the Widow mine is a pretty cool idea and gives a lot more way to multi-tasking where a couple of widow mines can really mess up a whole army if you're not paying attention.
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I think people are overlooking the fact that the attack ability for the mothership core is temporary. It costs a huge 75 energy and only lasts 20 seconds. Energy regens at 0.5625 per second, so it takes 133 seconds to build up that much energy. And do you really think it will help against mutas? They will just fly away after taking 1 hit and then return after 20 seconds are up. That ability won't be used nearly as much as the Energize one. I mean 25 energy to bring any nearby unit/structure up to full energy? Just doing that on one HT would hold off a drop or mutas better than the energy cannon. I can't see the cannon ability ever being used in pro play, since they should always have a high templar near the nexus in the late game, and a sentry near it in the early game.
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On June 10 2012 09:45 Belha wrote: - Hellion will become a stample in every match up with the battle mode. Raid unit, counter to melee stamples, map control and excelent production rate at a very cheap cost.
I don't see Hellions becoming anything more than a way to trade minerals for minerals in mech vs bio / a risky econ raider in TvT... so definitely not a matchup-defining unit for TvT.
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mothership core has a range of 13? not sure how i like it, takes away a bit of uniqueness from the tempest
but meh if they want protoss to have that long range feel, then sure why not, it makes sense lore-wise
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On June 10 2012 11:47 Fig wrote: I think people are overlooking the fact that the attack ability for the mothership core is temporary. It costs a huge 75 energy and only lasts 20 seconds. Energy regens at 0.5625 per second, so it takes 133 seconds to build up that much energy. And do you really think it will help against mutas? They will just fly away after taking 1 hit and then return after 20 seconds are up. That ability won't be used nearly as much as the Energize one. I mean 25 energy to bring any nearby unit/structure up to full energy? Just doing that on one HT would hold off a drop or mutas better than the energy cannon. I can't see the cannon ability ever being used in pro play, since they should always have a high templar near the nexus in the late game, and a sentry near it in the early game.
I actually do think it will help with mutas. A huge part of dealing with mutas is reaction time. 20 sec is enough time to mobilize a defense force if you are caught off guard. Mutas also come way before most people have HT so unless energize makes rushing HT a standard I dont see your point in that regard.
Absolutely I believe energize is the star player of the mothership core, but I stand by the idea that if the cannon were to be used then muta play would be the most impacted (I think that if energize stays as it is they will rebalance the early game to force you to energize your nexus similar to how it is currently balanced to force chrono on the nexus if you want to stay in the game economically and this means no anti rush cannon without a build specifically for it).
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the more i think about the more i dont understand the warhound. armored, does plus damage to armored. its a maruader you build from a factory. what ever happened to no unit overlap?
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On June 10 2012 12:13 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 11:47 Fig wrote: I think people are overlooking the fact that the attack ability for the mothership core is temporary. It costs a huge 75 energy and only lasts 20 seconds. Energy regens at 0.5625 per second, so it takes 133 seconds to build up that much energy. And do you really think it will help against mutas? They will just fly away after taking 1 hit and then return after 20 seconds are up. That ability won't be used nearly as much as the Energize one. I mean 25 energy to bring any nearby unit/structure up to full energy? Just doing that on one HT would hold off a drop or mutas better than the energy cannon. I can't see the cannon ability ever being used in pro play, since they should always have a high templar near the nexus in the late game, and a sentry near it in the early game. I actually do think it will help with mutas. A huge part of dealing with mutas is reaction time. 20 sec is enough time to mobilize a defense force if you are caught off guard. Mutas also come way before most people have HT so unless energize makes rushing HT a standard I dont see your point in that regard. Absolutely I believe energize is the star player of the mothership core, but I stand by the idea that if the cannon were to be used then muta play would be the most impacted (I think that if energize stays as it is they will rebalance the early game to force you to energize your nexus similar to how it is currently balanced to force chrono on the nexus if you want to stay in the game economically and this means no anti rush cannon without a build specifically for it). Yeah good point, it's true that in a normal PvZ toss doesn't have storm that quick. I'm still waiting for a revolution with regards to how toss deals with muta, I don't think the mass blink stalker style is best. Phoenixes are still way too unexplored in regard to muta defense. But I think that will change when toss gets oracles, since I bet they'll always go stargate then.
Also, your name is awesome!
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On June 10 2012 07:24 Doc Daneeka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote: You have to be kidding me.
Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.)
Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all.
Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged!
PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing!
In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong.
The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore.
HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly.
Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit.
The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D this is a very encouraging post, and i hope it turns out the way you're describing it. i'm still kind of worried though, that abduct is going to discourage making small numbers of high value units like colossi, tanks etc... i suppose depending on the cost, making tons of vipers could become cost prohibitive and tie up food that could be fighting units. but like, say terran is just barely keeping away muta harrasment, but zerg makes one viper, abducts the critically positioned thor and kills it, then moves in... will that de-incentivize making a handful of key thors as a way to deal with mutas? i dunno, just some thoughts. I completely agree with the post you quoted.
To your post, you can snipe the Vipers with things like Feedback, Snipe, and the Tempest. I personally love love love the Protoss changes! :D Maybe Colossus can be re worked in LotV, if not now.
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On June 10 2012 09:30 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:32 Trevo wrote:Seems my idea is being accepted here so i made a topic in blizzard forum:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5753735539#1- RavenSeeker missile removed from the game. new skill Widow mine they can target air and ground units and burrowed into the ground. Why this change? widow mine will be the new seeker missile but with map control when burrow the mine. only will be invisible when burrowed and will be detonate more quick than is now. Why this will not be Overpower? well look seeker missile right now but give them the option to burrow like spider mines. -ThorPDD is now a thor skill with a new animation for the thors. Why this change? now they can counter better magic box mutalisks. Why this will not be strong? Thor are now countered by Vipers late game and now they can be infested easily. I really like the Mine being a unit itself. PDD on Thor is kinda dumb. They just need to nerf HSM a bit and give it a decent range. Also I wonder if PDD effects the Viper abduct ability. Probably not but has someone tested it yet?
well i dont like this mines because they seem very weak against progamers who know how send 1 zergling or zealot to know if has 1 widow mine and after bring all the army, in TvZ zerg have a better map control when you start make this widow mines they already have lings watching everything, you will stop making real army to bet in mines which can easily avoid by some 6 lings? this is my fear about widow mines right now.
about pdd: thor are really expansive unit and now Immortals has a better range and with this new siege called tempest they can total deny any turtle mech terran, if terran make Tanks, Thors and Widows protoss just need tempest and immortals if be a mix like MMM and PDD is just cast feedback with templars.
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Isn't combat drugs another thing stolen from Warhammer?
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Warhounds sound so good, esp. considering their cheapness and haywire being autocastable. With the shorter build time, not needing armory, and being repairable, warhound+scv all-in may be the new thor+scv all-in.
I totally agree that while on paper the 22 range of upgraded tempests sounds amazing, you will rarely see them (except on specific maps where there's a lot of abusable flyspace, coupled with observers or preordain) because they will suck in direct engagements with that ridiculously long 6-second cast (you'll need a ton of support units to engage with them), and the upgrade is a 100 sec build time. Of course, we'll see
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No speed upgrade for reapers? That's a bit of a shock. I think a better upgrade for reaper would have been an upgrade to give them detection. Would be really useful in denying Zerg creep early game and would also be good for denying DT harass early or late game in TvP.
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On June 10 2012 11:11 Roe wrote: i wonder why they picked 22 as its range, seems random
I tryed editing the carrier in a test map to have tempest's weapon and I found out that 22 it's almost exactly a screen in lenght. More would have been difficult for spectating.
About the people saying that abduct is a good counter to tempest: 3 tempest(46*3=138) can oneshot a viper(120hp) from 22 range and abduct seems to have 9 range so if the tempest are positioned properly and retreat while the attack is charging(tempest and viper have same speed) abduct shouldn't be very effective.
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Tempest seems really lackluster. It feels too vanilla for a capital unit. BCs and Carriers have way more micro potential.
I don't understand the warhound, either. People hated the marauder and they add a mech version of it. I thought the complaint was that SC2 vanilla had too many powerful fire and forget units. Why another one?
The rest of the units seem pretty good, though. It's a huge change from the last time we heard news about HOTS and from the initial reveal. It makes me wonder how far away we really are.
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On June 10 2012 14:57 nocrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 11:11 Roe wrote: i wonder why they picked 22 as its range, seems random I tryed editing the carrier in a test map to have tempest's weapon and I found out that 22 it's almost exactly a screen in lenght. More would have been difficult for spectating. About the people saying that abduct is a good counter to tempest: 3 tempest(46*3=138) can oneshot a viper(120hp) from 22 range and abduct seems to have 9 range so if the tempest are positioned properly and retreat while the attack is charging(tempest and viper have same speed) abduct shouldn't be very effective.
Not mentioning viper can get killed by stalkers being placed between tempest and vipers... Tempest are supposed to be a flying siege unit, I think it does it fine and should never be used alone or in the front.
Overall we'll see how things plays out, it will create its load of imbalances that will get slowly fixed with patches anyway, like WoL.
I really really like the mothership core mechanics though, changes the whole game for Protoss all by itself.
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Is the hydra speed upgrade hive tech?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On June 10 2012 15:40 TheWorldToCome wrote: Is the hydra speed upgrade hive tech? Yes
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I think hydra speed needs to be lair tech instead of hive, so you can do harass with 3.38 hydras on 3rds and such in the midgame. That kind of harass will be harder to pull off/less relevant later in the game. Unless they're going to increase hydras' hp then they are better as a hit-and-run harass unit than in any actual engagements. Then again I could eat my words on that if protoss starts going air-heavy a lot.
edit - just looking at the viper, I'm trying to think of when you wouldn't build it vs. T or P. Against mech abduct will be amazing, and against bio Blinding Cloud will be great. Gonna be a very popular unit.
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How much cargo space is one warhound?
Probes and SCV are mechanical, I want to see warhound drops vs protoss and terran.
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On June 10 2012 17:13 Sea_Food wrote: How much cargo space is one warhound?
Probes and SCV are mechanical, I want to see warhound drops vs protoss and terran.
Wow, that would be interesting! I'm guessing warhound takes 4 spaces out of 8 though. 2 would seem weird for a unit that size.
Hm so they could 2 shot SCVs! I wonder if that's part of the reason why they do 23 damage, it's perfectly 46 damage, and getting +1 armor doesn't change that from 2 shots to 3.
For mechanical missiles... lol that would be epic. Maybe it doesn't target workers though ;O
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Updates from today? there was alot asked.
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On June 10 2012 17:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:13 Sea_Food wrote: How much cargo space is one warhound?
Probes and SCV are mechanical, I want to see warhound drops vs protoss and terran. Wow, that would be interesting! I'm guessing warhound takes 4 spaces out of 8 though. 2 would seem weird for a unit that size. Hm so they could 2 shot SCVs! I wonder if that's part of the reason why they do 23 damage, it's perfectly 46 damage, and getting +1 armor doesn't change that from 2 shots to 3. For mechanical missiles... lol that would be epic. Maybe it doesn't target workers though ;O
Isn't size irrelevant?
1 supply = 8 fit in a medivac (marines, reapers, scvs, mines!) 2 supply = 4 fit in a medivac (ghosts, hellions, vikings, marauders, warhounds) 3 supply = 2 fit in a medivac (tanks) 6 supply = 1 fits in a medivac (thor)
4 warhounds fit in a medivac I'll state with some degree of confidence
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On June 10 2012 12:19 a176 wrote: the more i think about the more i dont understand the warhound. armored, does plus damage to armored. its a maruader you build from a factory. what ever happened to no unit overlap? It's upgrade by vehicle upgrades instead of Bio. Basically they just want Mech to be viable in TvP (and possibly TvT also). Plus it shoots missiles every 6 seconds.
Also it's anti-mech, not anti-armored, which means it's pretty much useless in TvZ.
Btw, does anyone know if the Warhounds missiles can target air Mech units?
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because they weren't in the videos: a) is the roach still in the game? b) have they abandoned the idea of burrow movement for banelings? (Since if it was a new feature in HotS, i would have imagined seeing it at least once in the show games)
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On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy.
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On June 10 2012 12:19 a176 wrote: the more i think about the more i dont understand the warhound. armored, does plus damage to armored. its a maruader you build from a factory. what ever happened to no unit overlap? It doesn't do bonus damage to armored, it shoots missiles at mechanical units. So a Marauder would do bonus damage to Roaches, Ultralisks, Swarm Hosts, Marauders and buildings (all of these armored, none of these mechanical) whereas Warhounds would deal bonus damage to Hellions (Mechanical, Light). Marauders are more mobile (Stim), Warhounds are less susceptible to aoe by having more concentrated HP. When facing chargelot / stalker, Marauders kite- Warhounds tank damage, shooting missiles at the stalkers while shooting lasers at the zealots (or maybe also shooting lasers at the stalkers if you micro them right); because of this they'd be better at protecting tanks and vikings from getting caught, as Bio armies typically run away all the time.
While there is definitely some overlap in terms of what units they're good against (especially in TvP), I think the Marauder and the Warhound are pretty distinct in terms of playstyle and the kind of army composition you're likely to find them in (Warhounds share upgrades with tanks and hellions, Marauders share upgrades with Marines).
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On June 10 2012 12:19 a176 wrote: the more i think about the more i dont understand the warhound. armored, does plus damage to armored. its a maruader you build from a factory. what ever happened to no unit overlap? It's a mechanical marauder that is bad vs Zerg.
They have this obsesion of breaking tank lines with 1 a units (auto target mechanical units? lol) A terrible unit IMO. Giving mech some better support then what thors can, is good, but making this unit, from design, bad against one race and super 1 a friendly is as lazy design as you can get.
I'm sure it will be fun to use, in the begining, but in time, it will be just as boring as the marauder.
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Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed!
Lackluster mine concept The widow spider mine is nothing but a Baneling ... with a 10 second delay AND a bright orange countdown timer on top ... so you will not split your units only if you arent looking, don't care or just died in the middle of your game. Totally not worth the cost IMO. The only plus side of it is that it also attaches to flying units ... as to why I dont really know though, because that defies logic.
As if Forcefields werent bad enough ... ... now Zerg get a unit which enables them to handpick expensive units and drag them into the killing zone. Really bad concept IMO and although it seems fun to do it it totally neutralizes siege tank positions. At 200 gas you wont have that many of them, but if you are faced with the choice of building Broodlords OR Vipers you will have those Vipers much faster (even if you have to spend some time charging up first) and thus a tech switch isnt really necessary and you can just advance with Infestors + ground army and a few Vipers to pull those sieged tanks into a favorable position. Adding Dark Swar ... errr Blinding Cloud on top of it is just the icing on the cake and terrans are basically screwed if they go mech and screwed if they go bio against this.
I really hope they fix some of the obvious flaws in the design before the launch.
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On June 10 2012 20:09 Cirqueenflex wrote: because they weren't in the videos: a) is the roach still in the game? b) have they abandoned the idea of burrow movement for banelings? (Since if it was a new feature in HotS, i would have imagined seeing it at least once in the show games)
Roaches are still in the game afaik, there was no mention of them being removed nor do i think there's a real reason to do so. Burrow movement for banelings was scrapped.
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Did they make the ultralisks smaller or are they the same size? Also the warhounds are not going to be like a goliath-like unit?
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Nice, these units look pretty cool. Thanks to the OP for the post. All of this makes me wonder what the game will look like after Legacy of the Void. Maybe they'll bring Carriers back in that. xD
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On June 10 2012 19:17 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Sea_Food wrote: How much cargo space is one warhound?
Probes and SCV are mechanical, I want to see warhound drops vs protoss and terran. Wow, that would be interesting! I'm guessing warhound takes 4 spaces out of 8 though. 2 would seem weird for a unit that size. Hm so they could 2 shot SCVs! I wonder if that's part of the reason why they do 23 damage, it's perfectly 46 damage, and getting +1 armor doesn't change that from 2 shots to 3. For mechanical missiles... lol that would be epic. Maybe it doesn't target workers though ;O Isn't size irrelevant? 1 supply = 8 fit in a medivac (marines, reapers, scvs, mines!) 2 supply = 4 fit in a medivac (ghosts, hellions, vikings, marauders, warhounds) 3 supply = 2 fit in a medivac (tanks) 6 supply = 1 fits in a medivac (thor) 4 warhounds fit in a medivac I'll state with some degree of confidence
Banelings are 0,5 Supply and take up 2 spots (like Roach, Marauder, Zealot,...)
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On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units.
Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them.
On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! Quit whining, Feedback is a good spell and there's no reason to change it. Unless I'm mistaken, the Thors in the TvZ Battle Report didn't have energy, it may have been removed for HotS. Also BCs now have Redline Reactor to burn off excess energy while advancing faster to the frontlines, which should make them less susceptible.
On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Lackluster mine concept The widow spider mine is nothing but a Baneling ... with a 10 second delay AND a bright orange countdown timer on top ... so you will not split your units only if you arent looking, don't care or just died in the middle of your game. Totally not worth the cost IMO. The only plus side of it is that it also attaches to flying units ... as to why I dont really know though, because that defies logic. The art on the Widow Mines isn't final, they're using spider mines as a placeholder. The final model should look more like something capable of firing or projecting itself over a good distance, which justifies targeting air units just fine.
It's also quite different from Banelings and increases micro potential in battles for all sides, as well as giving Terran cheap and powerful static board control. They are more than worth the cost if utilized correctly as they are ALWAYS guaranteed a kill after attaching except against the very toughest units, and they're worth less than anything bar basic combat units, workers and banes.
On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: As if Forcefields werent bad enough ... ... now Zerg get a unit which enables them to handpick expensive units and drag them into the killing zone. Really bad concept IMO and although it seems fun to do it it totally neutralizes siege tank positions. At 200 gas you wont have that many of them, but if you are faced with the choice of building Broodlords OR Vipers you will have those Vipers much faster (even if you have to spend some time charging up first) and thus a tech switch isnt really necessary and you can just advance with Infestors + ground army and a few Vipers to pull those sieged tanks into a favorable position. Adding Dark Swar ... errr Blinding Cloud on top of it is just the icing on the cake and terrans are basically screwed if they go mech and screwed if they go bio against this.
I really hope they fix some of the obvious flaws in the design before the launch. The Viper spells are in almost no way comparable to Force Field. Blinding Cloud doesn't hinder unit movement or control whatsoever - it encourages micro rather than prevents it, so it's a very welcome addition to the game from any viewpoint. Abduct is more akin to Snipe than anything else, it's our way of picking off single, powerful units from a distance but with a very Zergy flavor. Vipers are expensive and vulnerable to both Vikings and Ghosts which are both available long before Hive tech so seriously just stop your bitching.
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Hmm, I wonder how window mines will do against drops in TvT. On maps with little airspace, you can probably put one down in likely medivac path and you'll either kill the whole drop, or at least turn the drop away.
Edit: Also, if mothership core can be neuraled, you can sneak an infestor, recall in and then escape with nydus, which would be sooo awesome
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Just FYI everyone, reapers in HOTS have 5 range (I was at the event yesterday). I think OP simply saw the 7 damage number and wrote that down by accident.
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On June 11 2012 01:03 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 19:17 Ktk wrote:On June 10 2012 17:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Sea_Food wrote: How much cargo space is one warhound?
Probes and SCV are mechanical, I want to see warhound drops vs protoss and terran. Wow, that would be interesting! I'm guessing warhound takes 4 spaces out of 8 though. 2 would seem weird for a unit that size. Hm so they could 2 shot SCVs! I wonder if that's part of the reason why they do 23 damage, it's perfectly 46 damage, and getting +1 armor doesn't change that from 2 shots to 3. For mechanical missiles... lol that would be epic. Maybe it doesn't target workers though ;O Isn't size irrelevant? 1 supply = 8 fit in a medivac (marines, reapers, scvs, mines!) 2 supply = 4 fit in a medivac (ghosts, hellions, vikings, marauders, warhounds) 3 supply = 2 fit in a medivac (tanks) 6 supply = 1 fits in a medivac (thor) 4 warhounds fit in a medivac I'll state with some degree of confidence Banelings are 0,5 Supply and take up 2 spots (like Roach, Marauder, Zealot,...)
@Ktk I didn't notice that, but yeah banelings and reapers are an exception. Then again you can fit 4 vikings in a medivac, so who knows :D (Vikings are pretty big xD)
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Swarm Hosts = Siege tanks with cloak ... at least the Lurker had a limited range and didnt create "free hit points" (the interceptors for a Carrier have to be bought with minerals).
Oracle = "negative Mule" (but much more of a pain)
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I really want to be able to Neural a Probe to get my hands on a Mothership Core energy max button for transfuse/fungals. Forward Nexus supporting Zerg push would be so strong, shame about how rare I imagine it'd be to get that probe though. Might be a little easier with abduct to grab a proxy pyloning probe though I guess.
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On June 11 2012 02:56 Rabiator wrote: Swarm Hosts = Siege tanks with cloak without splash damage and do zero damage if you have anough firepower... at least the Lurker had a limited range and AoE and no huge pauses between attacks and did damage relevant to micro, not to firepower of opponent and didnt create "free hit points" (the interceptors for a Carrier have to be bought with minerals).
Oracle = "negative Mule" (but much more of a pain) with free scan for two full minutes plus cloaking your units fixed that for you
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lurk have the WOW moment, swarm host no, just for this the lurker is much better
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On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them.
Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers.
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On June 11 2012 04:57 cablesc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them. Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers. Ironically, banelings are the best to sweep mines with in the right situation, since they're going to die anyways. Just have to time it carefully. Roaches are fine too, though in the short run you lose out on supply. Could also tank it with Ultralisks and then transfuse.
Zealots can get the job done for protoss if you don't mind saccing some extra minerals for gas units. Also it remains to be seen if Immortals hardened shields can tank them. Archons can do that as well. Another trick which I'm not sure is possible might be casting forcefield directly over the mines, maybe that prevents them from jumping out?
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I wonder if they know this... But to make mech viable in tvp, they just simpyl have to add spider mines and higher DPS tanks vs shields (so it doesn't affect TvZ althought TvZ is completely imbalanced right now)
Btw, i feel like I always have to say this, but not terran player, Master P player.
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drones are even more imba now, only worker that won't get hit by warhound rockets.
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On June 11 2012 05:16 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I wonder if they know this... But to make mech viable in tvp, they just simpyl have to add spider mines and higher DPS tanks vs shields (so it doesn't affect TvZ althought TvZ is completely imbalanced right now)
Btw, i feel like I always have to say this, but not terran player, Master P player.
What mech needed was a low cost "beefy" non-hellion unit whose upgrades also improve the actual "important" mech units.
Right now the choices a mech player has in TvP is build up a high tank count, build up mass thors, build up a high hellion count.
Now the hellion count is important just for harassment and a mineral sink (big problem for Mech play)
Tanks are too specialized and Thors produce too slowly.
So Blizzard gave terran a unit whose "anti-mech" attack is attached to a cooldown instead of into its attack to allow them to tweak its power vs mech without breaking its autoattack vs non-mechs.
Would mines have helped? Yup, mines would. (Although allowing mass hellions in TvZ that can't be stopped by roaches just because Hellion/spidermine would counter roaches would suck)
Would higher DPS tanks have helped? Yup, it would have also break TvZ as well.
Would a unit that doesn't replace the maruader but allows mech play to have a beefy front line unit to protect the more fragile/expensive mech units while also allowing mech to work better without hurting the TvZ matchup work as well? Yes.
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On June 11 2012 05:31 FeyFey wrote: drones are even more imba now, only worker that won't get hit by warhound rockets.
They get sniped by Spawning pools and hatcheries every damn game though.
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On June 11 2012 05:31 FeyFey wrote: drones are even more imba now, only worker that won't get hit by warhound rockets. Probes are the only workers that don't take extra Archon damage, I believe.
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On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed!
IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro?
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Tanks seriously need a buff now.
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On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote: Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP.
You Emp the core, no recall. if its low on energy you can then nuke it to kill it. yeah emp work on buildings, recall cost 150 energy, max possible energy after an emp is 100.
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The Warhound's normal attack is 23 against everything? And only the special auto micro thing is anti mechanical?
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On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO.
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I am sorry I have to say that, but... Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good.
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On June 11 2012 06:02 Sapphire.lux wrote: The Warhound's normal attack is 23 against everything? And only the special auto micro thing is anti mechanical? Yes
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On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO.
Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate?
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thanks very much for this OP, it answered a lot of the little questions i was asking myself while watching the battle reports from MLG!
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On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO.
A lot of players are now yamatoing rocks before engagements so they have no energy to get feedback.
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On June 11 2012 05:13 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 04:57 cablesc wrote:On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them. Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers. Ironically, banelings are the best to sweep mines with in the right situation, since they're going to die anyways. Just have to time it carefully. Roaches are fine too, though in the short run you lose out on supply. Could also tank it with Ultralisks and then transfuse. Zealots can get the job done for protoss if you don't mind saccing some extra minerals for gas units. Also it remains to be seen if Immortals hardened shields can tank them. Archons can do that as well. Another trick which I'm not sure is possible might be casting forcefield directly over the mines, maybe that prevents them from jumping out?
Do you know anything about the widow mines targeting. Does it prioritize targets or does it just go for the closest unit. And what about manually targeting. Is that possible?
I personally think the widow mines are the most promising new Terran unit, especially if they give it some kind of priority targeting.
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On June 11 2012 06:19 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:02 Sapphire.lux wrote: The Warhound's normal attack is 23 against everything? And only the special auto micro thing is anti mechanical? Yes TY! Then it's a bit less one dimensional then i originaly thought, wish there was a battle report to show them.
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Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T.
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On June 11 2012 06:17 Lixo wrote: I am sorry I have to say that, but... Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good. imo
swarm hosts way outdo lurkers in offense, siege and army support, only slightly worse than lurkers in space control
I prefer the swarm host.
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I am excited to watch TvZ matches now with all the new units involved in Heart of the Swarm. As of now , as a protoss player , I do not enjoy watching terran vs zerg. I love the addition of the widow mine. I was actually saying I hope they bring back the spider mine a few weeks ago. It will definitely make matches more exciting with the widow mine and a lot more annoying for protoss but I think it will be a great addition to the game.
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On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote: Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T.
1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit
2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range.
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On June 11 2012 06:39 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote: Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T. 1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit 2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Stalker http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Immortal http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray
According to Liquipedia, stalkers, immortals, and voids have range of 6. Any T who burrows in front of cannons deserves to lose them, same goes for mothership core. I am more concerned with T just littering attack path, so cannons and mothership core would be ineffective. Suggesting using storms to kill mines is ridiculous, and also places your temps out of position. Tempest and coli are effective, but you have to wait for range for coli, and tempest cost 300, 300 for a 75, 25 unit, and must be continually microed to kill mines. I understand that as a defensive unit they are supposed to cause more actions, but it is totally imbalanced now. Lets say I move out with my army, and I spot mines. I have to pull my coli out, move my obs into position, but not too close or I will lose it. T can then snipe coli with vikings/stim. If I move forward w/stalkers I risk mines.
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On June 11 2012 06:39 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote: Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T. 1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit 2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range.
The only Protoss units which have an attack greater than 6 range are the upgraded colossus and the carrier. In Heart of the swarm this list will include the tempest.
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All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T.
Welecom to the current T feeling of TvP \o/
On a more serious note: This is allowing mech army to not build Bunkers PF and turrets all across the map, and not get caught out of position easily. Don't think it's OP, like banelings, you can't win with them really easily, although i'm already thinking of some kinds of "Widow-Mines Bust" All-in. But it allow us to defend against Big Toss bust while going mech.
You have to think that mech greatest weakness is resplenish army, having Widow mines allow us to play safe, but in the same way it's not great in a frontal fight, especially against full grown Toss Army.
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Wow, wrong thread... well, might as well make this post useful.
I feel like Zerg and Terran got some units that are really good CORE units, the Tempest is nice, the Oracle is cool, but Protoss is still going to have the issues it still has, and I would have really liked to see some changes that allowed some more potent micro, or something that let small groups of Protoss units be more effective to help discourage the deathball style.
Tempest... long range, yeah, neat, but that damage is just so low, and with how fast battles tend to go, I really don't see them being very good in head to head battles. As long as people aren't letting Observers settle in above their armies, I don't see the Tempest being particularly effective at... anything, really.
The Mothership Core is what I love to see though, those abilities impact Protoss play SO heavily without being new units, which I always like to see.
I dunno, I had hoped that something would be added to make the Protoss units more like Terran units in that they could function better in small groups compared to massive balls o' death.
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On June 11 2012 06:46 lschiss16 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:39 Roblin wrote:On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote: Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T. 1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit 2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Stalkerhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Immortalhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_RayAccording to Liquipedia, stalkers, immortals, and voids have range of 6. Any T who burrows in front of cannons deserves to lose them, same goes for mothership core. I am more concerned with T just littering attack path, so cannons and mothership core would be ineffective. Suggesting using storms to kill mines is ridiculous, and also places your temps out of position. Tempest and coli are effective, but you have to wait for range for coli, and tempest cost 300, 300 for a 75, 25 unit, and must be continually microed to kill mines. I understand that as a defensive unit they are supposed to cause more actions, but it is totally imbalanced now. Lets say I move out with my army, and I spot mines. I have to pull my coli out, move my obs into position, but not too close or I will lose it. T can then snipe coli with vikings/stim. If I move forward w/stalkers I risk mines. An armoury requirement could balance it out.
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On June 11 2012 06:26 cablesc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:13 SmileZerg wrote:On June 11 2012 04:57 cablesc wrote:On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them. Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers. Ironically, banelings are the best to sweep mines with in the right situation, since they're going to die anyways. Just have to time it carefully. Roaches are fine too, though in the short run you lose out on supply. Could also tank it with Ultralisks and then transfuse. Zealots can get the job done for protoss if you don't mind saccing some extra minerals for gas units. Also it remains to be seen if Immortals hardened shields can tank them. Archons can do that as well. Another trick which I'm not sure is possible might be casting forcefield directly over the mines, maybe that prevents them from jumping out? Do you know anything about the widow mines targeting. Does it prioritize targets or does it just go for the closest unit. And what about manually targeting. Is that possible? I personally think the widow mines are the most promising new Terran unit, especially if they give it some kind of priority targeting. I'm not sure how priority works on the mines, but I have been told you can manually target with them.
I agree that they seem to be the most promising new unit for Terran. They should create some interesting dynamics in every matchup.
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On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote: Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job! And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper It's sortive like a thor but it can not shoot air units like the thor so it's not as effective and looks overpriced
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Warhounds overpriced? What? Their basic stats all around are some of the most cost-efficient in the game, and they're only 2 supply!
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Flash said it. Toss/Zergs get all the units, Terrans only get widow mine.
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On June 11 2012 06:31 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:17 Lixo wrote: I am sorry I have to say that, but... Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good. imo swarm hosts way outdo lurkers in offense, siege and army support, only slightly worse than lurkers in space control I prefer the swarm host.
But the straight line attack of the lurker makes microing against their attack more entertaining.
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On June 11 2012 08:11 dgwow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:31 Roblin wrote:On June 11 2012 06:17 Lixo wrote: I am sorry I have to say that, but... Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good. imo swarm hosts way outdo lurkers in offense, siege and army support, only slightly worse than lurkers in space control I prefer the swarm host. But the straight line attack of the lurker makes microing against their attack more entertaining. True, but kiting Locusts and focus firing non-Locusts behind them is still skill intensive.
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OP update the information please.
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Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool !
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On June 11 2012 08:44 Cosmos wrote: Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool !
I thought new reaper is range 7, and the queen retains range 5?
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As a Protoss I must say that I am VERY excited about the potential Mothership Core/Oracle usage. To me I don't see this as a harass unit, I see it as such a powerful defensive weapon. Think about this Scenario in PvZ:
Protoss goes Forge Fast Expand but taking an early gas to get the Mothership Core up. Proceeds as normal until the point where you get your four gasses running, at which point you drop Double Stargate. Make a fair number of Oracles and charge their energy to max with the Mothership Core (You'd still be making an early Sentry for defense). Then they run over to the Zerg and use Preordain on a bunch of their buildings. You'll be able to see EXACTLY what the Zerg is up to and whether they are going to be attacking you or not. If they look like they're going to be aggressive you can bring the Oracles back and cloak your units. If you had a couple of Phoenixes you could quite probably snipe any potential Overseers that they bring with their army. If they're being passive, then you start dropping Entombs... Even if it does a tiny small amount of "damage", you're going to be playing greedy too because you know that he can't attack you right now without you knowing about it.
This unit just really excites me and I have a lurking suspicion that it will definitely be a unit that will undergo a LOT of balance scrutiny if it's released as is. The interaction between these units is just incredible and if would completely change the way that Protoss is played. I think the Preordain ability may be the most powerful ability on that unit. Seeing everything in your opponent's base for 2 minutes? At the cost of Energy? Hell yeah! Eventually they'd get some air defense or something to try and shake off the Oracles but still, this unit just really excites me... Close second being Mothership Core. The ability to make a single Sentry and be SUPER safe (you'll have 4 forcefields that you can recharge super quickly). Protoss is going to be a defensive powerhouse.
The Tempest I think will have to be changed. Because I can easily see in PvZ a Protoss having a bunch of Sentries in the lategame at full energy. If you can build up a sizeable fleet of Tempests, you could use hallucinate to shoot stuff from crazy long range.
As a Protoss I'm biased and I know that, but this seems extremely powerful. I'm absolutely positive that some of these abilities are going to be toned down or removed. So for everyone who might be crying about balance, I wouldn't sweat it because this was a "press release". They wanted to get us all excited about the possibilities in Heart of the Swarm, and there's a little something for each race. I'm sure they're going to tone down and figure out how to balance the units correctly. It wasn't perfect for the WoL release, but they had absolutely little "real game" data to work off of. Now they understand how a lot of the things have been balanced in WoL and for what reason, which will help them make faster and better decisions in the future. So again, I wouldn't sweat it because I'm sure they're going to tone some stuff down.
But God I hope they don't.
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On June 11 2012 08:52 Chicken Chaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 08:44 Cosmos wrote: Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool ! I thought new reaper is range 7, and the queen retains range 5?
According to the OP, that was a mistake.
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On June 11 2012 08:44 Cosmos wrote: Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool !
I thought new reaper is range 7, and the queen retains range 5?
No that was a mistake the reaper range is 5
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Speaking of mistakes regarding range, I just realized I've been right about 6 on Widow Mines being too much this whole time.
The TvZ battle report shows their attach radius at the beginning when the first couple mines are deployed, duh. Can't believe I missed that so many times. It's obviously radius 4, which was the same as the Shredder so it makes sense.
Balance prevails.
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at the moment Protoss has no micro intensive units, which makes it hard for players to evolve out of a-move win styles. Abit dissapointing that no new units/changes have been introduced to evolve this
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On June 09 2012 18:36 Garmer wrote: overseer can't do shit to widow mine, they have 6 RANGE ATTACHMENT, you need a siege units to take them out safely, even if they are revealed
Or a hero roach that gets like 20 of them attached to him.
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That's it, I'm switching to toss.
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So if I make a wish that I could have a billion more wishes would that work?
what I mean is in a team game can we do a MCore orgy with Energize? So we have more Energize?
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On June 11 2012 12:39 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:36 Garmer wrote: overseer can't do shit to widow mine, they have 6 RANGE ATTACHMENT, you need a siege units to take them out safely, even if they are revealed Or a hero roach that gets like 20 of them attached to him.
Mines have smart casting, so they won't latch onto the same target.
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If you damage a battle hellion and take it down to 10 health, then transform back into a regular hellion does it die like the blues brother car when they get out of it?
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On June 11 2012 12:52 Oboeman wrote: If you damage a battle hellion and take it down to 10 health, then transform back into a regular hellion does it die like the blues brother car when they get out of it? I think it'll go into car mode with 10 hp.
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Do you think it keeps the same % hp during transformation?
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On June 11 2012 12:54 Oboeman wrote: Do you think it keeps the same % hp during transformation? I think not % but static hp itself.
Chances maybe a 100/130 hp BHellion would transform in to a 90/90 Hellion
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Would the cool down on locust spawn reset if the swarm host is unburrowed? If so you could spawn locusts then move forwards and spawn more so that both waves would reach the opponent at the same time.
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On June 11 2012 13:10 MajuGarzett wrote: Would the cool down on locust spawn reset if the swarm host is unburrowed? If so you could spawn locusts then move forwards and spawn more so that both waves would reach the opponent at the same time. I don't think so, after all Warp Gate =>Gate=> Warp doesn't reset the cooldown for the unit creation.
Edit; More affirmative answer no
Swarmhost spawns ready are indicated by there egg backs.
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On June 11 2012 13:11 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 13:10 MajuGarzett wrote: Would the cool down on locust spawn reset if the swarm host is unburrowed? If so you could spawn locusts then move forwards and spawn more so that both waves would reach the opponent at the same time. I don't think so, after all Warp Gate =>Gate=> Warp doesn't reset the cooldown for the unit creation. That's too bad then. It would have been pretty cool to see players work to make waves of locusts coincide. Also it might have added a bit more micro to see who could burrow and unburrow the most efficiently.
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Oracles are soooo anoying. Basically have to make at least 2 Spines in my min line for every ZvP Match up!
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On June 11 2012 12:39 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:36 Garmer wrote: overseer can't do shit to widow mine, they have 6 RANGE ATTACHMENT, you need a siege units to take them out safely, even if they are revealed Or a hero roach that gets like 20 of them attached to him. Only one mine will attach to a target at a time.
Also the range is 4, not 6. I have visual proof.
On June 11 2012 12:52 Oboeman wrote: If you damage a battle hellion and take it down to 10 health, then transform back into a regular hellion does it die like the blues brother car when they get out of it?
I believe the health numbers are done by percentage, because a Battle Hellion has exactly 50% more maximum health than a Raid Hellion (135 vs 90). For every 3 HP it had, it would have 2, probably rounding up, and vice versa.
On June 11 2012 13:13 MajuGarzett wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 13:11 Blasterion wrote:On June 11 2012 13:10 MajuGarzett wrote: Would the cool down on locust spawn reset if the swarm host is unburrowed? If so you could spawn locusts then move forwards and spawn more so that both waves would reach the opponent at the same time. I don't think so, after all Warp Gate =>Gate=> Warp doesn't reset the cooldown for the unit creation. That's too bad then. It would have been pretty cool to see players work to make waves of locusts coincide. Also it might have added a bit more micro to see who could burrow and unburrow the most efficiently. The Spawn Locust ability is on a 25 second cooldown that is utterly unaffected by burrowed or unburrowed status. They simply can't cast it unless burrowed.
You can also deactivate the auto-cast to sync up a group of Hosts together without having to unburrow them.
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Spider mine attaches to cloaked units? Does that mean instead of building turrets, you can just put a few spider mines a the enterance to your base to protect against DTs?
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On June 11 2012 13:23 ThirdDegree wrote: Spider mine attaches to cloaked units? Does that mean instead of building turrets, you can just put a few spider mines a the enterance to your base to protect against DTs? Currently, yes.
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I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it.
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On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. Blizzard's probably still experimenting with ideas for their spells since they weren't shown in either of the battle reports. We do know that Spawn Changeling is now "siege range" instead of dropped underneath them.
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On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it.
They can only make it so good, since it costs 0 food. Thats what browder said back at blizzcon
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On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. I consider it less stale then the observer and yet you never see anyone compain about the simplicity of it. Speaking of the observer, with the oracle being so insanely fast I'm wondering if people will start to postpone their robotech and just using the oracle to scout. The oracle is so fast that you can easily get enough cannons or a robo + observer out in time if you scout banshees, dts, and etc.
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On June 11 2012 13:38 Amlitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. I consider it less stale then the observer and yet you never see anyone compain about the simplicity of it. Speaking of the observer, with the oracle being so insanely fast I'm wondering if people will start to postpone their robotech and just using the oracle to scout. The oracle is so fast that you can easily get enough cannons or a robo + observer out in time if you scout banshees, dts, and etc.
You don't even need to go observer because oracle can give detection with Preordain. Clearly they gave this detection option to the stargate so that Toss isn't forced down the robo tech path.
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On June 11 2012 13:49 cablesc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 13:38 Amlitzer wrote:On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. I consider it less stale then the observer and yet you never see anyone compain about the simplicity of it. Speaking of the observer, with the oracle being so insanely fast I'm wondering if people will start to postpone their robotech and just using the oracle to scout. The oracle is so fast that you can easily get enough cannons or a robo + observer out in time if you scout banshees, dts, and etc. You don't even need to go observer because oracle can give detection with Preordain. Clearly they gave this detection option to the stargate so that Toss isn't forced down the robo tech path. I didn't know before that preordain give detection as well, I thought it just gave vision of the surrounding. That is very interesting, I hope this leads to more stargate play because I'm really tired of robo play.
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Can you toss changelings up a cliff, then charge the changelings with your ultralisks? What about Infested terrans up a cliff? And then you charge them with an Ultralisk?
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On June 11 2012 13:49 cablesc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 13:38 Amlitzer wrote:On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. I consider it less stale then the observer and yet you never see anyone compain about the simplicity of it. Speaking of the observer, with the oracle being so insanely fast I'm wondering if people will start to postpone their robotech and just using the oracle to scout. The oracle is so fast that you can easily get enough cannons or a robo + observer out in time if you scout banshees, dts, and etc. You don't even need to go observer because oracle can give detection with Preordain. Clearly they gave this detection option to the stargate so that Toss isn't forced down the robo tech path. You're going to want observers to deal with widow mines outside of the range of buildings to target with Preordain.
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Wait a second... If I put a nexus 8 range away from a teammate's command center build a mothership core and energize, could that be infinite scans and mules?
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On June 11 2012 13:52 lorkac wrote: Can you toss changelings up a cliff, then charge the changelings with your ultralisks? What about Infested terrans up a cliff? And then you charge them with an Ultralisk? Ultralisk charge doesn't target units as far as I'm aware, it's just like Blink. Click ground and go there. Unlike Blink, however, I'm almost positive it can't go up or down cliffs.
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how much hp is window mine
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On June 11 2012 13:55 Zairair wrote: Wait a second... If I put a nexus 8 range away from a teammate's command center build a mothership core and energize, could that be infinite scans and mules? Oh lol. I see team games becoming enormously hilarious! Nexus in to max energy to boost t's economy.
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On June 11 2012 13:55 Zairair wrote: Wait a second... If I put a nexus 8 range away from a teammate's command center build a mothership core and energize, could that be infinite scans and mules? Maybe, but I guarantee that the energize ability will not even see Beta for reasons like that. Infinite chrono-boost alone is already going to get it removed.
On June 11 2012 14:01 iky43210 wrote: how much hp is window mine OP says 55. I'm inclined to believe them, although there is a good amount of false information there, because that's the kind of statistic which is pretty easy to get right.
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On June 11 2012 14:10 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 13:55 Zairair wrote: Wait a second... If I put a nexus 8 range away from a teammate's command center build a mothership core and energize, could that be infinite scans and mules? Maybe, but I guarantee that the energize ability will not even see Beta for reasons like that. Infinite chrono-boost alone is already going to get it removed. OP says 55. I'm inclined to believe them, although there is a good amount of false information there, because that's the kind of statistic which is pretty easy to get right. I think that energize ability is only for units?
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Some new stuff I saw at MLG that I don't think has been added here. -Ultralisk bonus damage is still to armored, not changed to light as reported earlier -Tempest attack upgrade is +4 (+2 vs massive) per upgrade -Locust attack upgrade is +2 per upgrade -When 2 vipers are ordered to abduct each other, they both pull each other and basically switch positions (I have a video that I'll try to add later, it's pretty funny)
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On June 11 2012 14:26 -NegativeZero- wrote: Some new stuff I saw at MLG that I don't think has been added here. -Ultralisk bonus damage is still to armored, not changed to light as reported earlier -Tempest attack upgrade is +4 (+2 vs massive) per upgrade -Locust attack upgrade is +2 per upgrade -When 2 vipers are ordered to abduct each other, they both pull each other and basically switch positions (I have a video that I'll try to add later, it's pretty funny) Good stuff to know. Holy shit Locusts... also LOL at that last one.
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On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it.
Agreed, it's awful. All they really had to do to address the "detectoriffic" Zerg issue was make overlords having detection unlockable at Lair (rather than always as in BW), instead of creating a worthless unit just for that purpose.
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mothership core allll dayyyyyy cant wait
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On June 11 2012 14:33 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. Agreed, it's awful. All they really had to do to address the "detectoriffic" Zerg issue was make overlords having detection unlockable at Lair (rather than always as in BW), instead of creating a worthless unit just for that purpose.
The observer is the same thing. Why do people cry about units being stale when they serve a purpose.
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On June 11 2012 14:37 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 14:33 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. Agreed, it's awful. All they really had to do to address the "detectoriffic" Zerg issue was make overlords having detection unlockable at Lair (rather than always as in BW), instead of creating a worthless unit just for that purpose. The observer is the same thing. Why do people cry about units being stale when they serve a purpose. Agreed, the last thing the game needs is more useless gimmicks. If something works then it works, it doesn't have to be flashy about it. Besides, the changeling change is already a big buff to the overseer.
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If there are any units to cry over, the Corruptor is higher on that list than the Overseer.
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On June 11 2012 14:26 -NegativeZero- wrote: Some new stuff I saw at MLG that I don't think has been added here. -Ultralisk bonus damage is still to armored, not changed to light as reported earlier -Tempest attack upgrade is +4 (+2 vs massive) per upgrade -Locust attack upgrade is +2 per upgrade -When 2 vipers are ordered to abduct each other, they both pull each other and basically switch positions (I have a video that I'll try to add later, it's pretty funny)
What's battle hellions armour type if you know.
Also I would be interested to see if you have any terran videos.
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On June 11 2012 14:37 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 14:33 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. Agreed, it's awful. All they really had to do to address the "detectoriffic" Zerg issue was make overlords having detection unlockable at Lair (rather than always as in BW), instead of creating a worthless unit just for that purpose. The observer is the same thing. Why do people cry about units being stale when they serve a purpose.
I can't tell if you're incredibly ignorant or just trolling. The observer is certainly not the same thing, as it's a cloaked unit which fits within the Protoss arsenal as the unique form of Protoss detection.
Different styles of detection for each race is one of the basic design principles of Starcraft: Terrans get sweep and vessels/ravens, Protoss get obs and plenty of splash effects to ignore cloak, while Zerg gets built-in detectors with their overlords (in-line with the Zerg concept of multi-purpose units/buildings). Each form of detection has its own advantages.
Overlords weren't broken to start with, and the "fix" is just plain awful. The Overseer is essentially a copy of half of the Terran detection concept (the vessel/raven), except terribad.
On June 11 2012 14:42 Amlitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 14:37 Infernal_dream wrote:On June 11 2012 14:33 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. Agreed, it's awful. All they really had to do to address the "detectoriffic" Zerg issue was make overlords having detection unlockable at Lair (rather than always as in BW), instead of creating a worthless unit just for that purpose. The observer is the same thing. Why do people cry about units being stale when they serve a purpose. Agreed, the last thing the game needs is more useless gimmicks. If something works then it works, it doesn't have to be flashy about it. Besides, the changeling change is already a big buff to the overseer.
If we actually applied your logic, then overlords with detection worked just fine without being flashy. The only flashy concept here is overseers with their changelings/contaminate.
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On June 11 2012 14:01 iky43210 wrote: how much hp is window mine widow mine have 55 hp, is possible to see it in the battle report
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On June 11 2012 16:50 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 14:37 Infernal_dream wrote:On June 11 2012 14:33 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. Agreed, it's awful. All they really had to do to address the "detectoriffic" Zerg issue was make overlords having detection unlockable at Lair (rather than always as in BW), instead of creating a worthless unit just for that purpose. The observer is the same thing. Why do people cry about units being stale when they serve a purpose. I can't tell if you're incredibly ignorant or just trolling. The observer is certainly not the same thing, as it's a cloaked unit which fits within the Protoss arsenal as the unique form of Protoss detection. Different styles of detection for each race is one of the basic design principles of Starcraft: Terrans get sweep and vessels/ravens, Protoss get obs and plenty of splash effects to ignore cloak, while Zerg gets built-in detectors with their overlords (in-line with the Zerg concept of multi-purpose units/buildings). Each form of detection has its own advantages. Overlords weren't broken to start with, and the "fix" is just plain awful. The Overseer is essentially a copy of half of the Terran detection concept (the vessel/raven), except terribad. Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 14:42 Amlitzer wrote:On June 11 2012 14:37 Infernal_dream wrote:On June 11 2012 14:33 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 13:26 aka_star wrote: I Hate the overseer so much.... the stale unit just makes me want to cry even more so now no changes seems present for it. Agreed, it's awful. All they really had to do to address the "detectoriffic" Zerg issue was make overlords having detection unlockable at Lair (rather than always as in BW), instead of creating a worthless unit just for that purpose. The observer is the same thing. Why do people cry about units being stale when they serve a purpose. Agreed, the last thing the game needs is more useless gimmicks. If something works then it works, it doesn't have to be flashy about it. Besides, the changeling change is already a big buff to the overseer. If we actually applied your logic, then overlords with detection worked just fine without being flashy. The only flashy concept here is overseers with their changelings/contaminate. Welp... this guy makes a good argument.
Unfortunately Blizzard is already attached to the idea of the Overseer so it's not going anywhere. It doesn't really hurt the game so, might as well expend your energy trying to get more serious issues fixed.
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Giving a thoght or 2 on the current state of units, let's start with bad concepts (IMHO).
The bad. T: Widdow mine. As from P's PoV it's pretty OP. 200 splahs damage, ouch. It's x10 times harder than baneling. Protoss is better when fighting closely to each other, and kiting zealots into minefield is going to be so easy. Also there is a possibility for a widdow-mine drop at your mineral lines, basically i really see that TvP is going to be a slaughter in T's favour. Obs is going to be even more essential, than currently. And i see no reason why it should attack air. I already see how well placed mines around mineral patches will deny muta harass.
Z: Swarm host's locust AA attack. Just to be clear - i like the concept of swarm host, it's fine, and about time zerg would have a siege unit. But again loscust are pretty damn good, and they cost nothing, so attacking both air and ground sounds really OP. When saw battle-reports i was just shocked how easy it was for zerg to take out P's army when they were fighting at his 3rd.
Ultralisk charge. WHY? I just don't get why, making them faster would be more logical. It is done, so ultras can engage directly into army, but it makes no sense how such a large unit can go underground so fast etc... Imo just making them faster would seal the deal, and ability to walk over smaller units mb.
P: Tempest. As it was discussed even when info about him came out - tempest is shit. It is as useless as it can be, i was surprised when people started to worry about it's 22 range, but to be honest i am so wtf, cuz I don't really see where this can be used. First there was a thought of using it as a sige unit, but then i found out that there is no more splash damage, so whole attack goes into single unit... So with 49 damage over 6 seconds gives you so low dps, which is aburd. Even thought it has good range vs air, so it's theoretically is going to be a good answer to BL/Corrupter, and maybe vikings in PvT. But 300/300 with a build time of 75, makes this unit so much expensive and ineffective that getting it is really questionable. Thought it's rage can be used to snipe Vipers in PvZ, vikings, medivacs in PvT, colossi in PvP. But overall i still think that it's still not worth it. Would be much happier to see carriers with range buff.
Mothership: I don't really see why you should get MS now. Some changes on it are really not worth mentioning. I think that removing vortex totally and placing same abilities as MScore onto MS and maybe adding a cloacking field as energy-dependent spell would be better.
The good: T: Reviewed Reaper I really like changes so reaper can participate in the game and have it's place int T's BOs. Though 7 range is a little too much maybe. Overall very nice.
Thors staying. Well i didn't see why it should be replaced by some super-thor, so staying as it is in WoL is good.
Z: Hydra speed. Long waited upgrade, don't understand why they needed to wait for HotS to add this.
P: --
The Awesome: T: Battle Hellion/Warhound Just great! There is something about mech terran that i really like, so facing a mech as P is going to make game soo much more interesting, very nice addition and i really see T as all-around good race now. Thou i first was unsure about Warhounds autocast, but then meh, it's okay.
Z: Swarm host. This one is so good, i don't know if it requires burrow or not, but the concept of this unit is awesome. And even thought i really think it shouldn't have AA attack it's still all-around useful unit.
Viper: Oh my god. Zerg is getting so good spellcasters, so it will require even more micro from Z, but on highest level of game it's going to be just beautiful to see zerg in play. And requirement of Hive-tech is not making it OP. Superb.
P: Mothership core: Very nice, getting an earlier recall and recharging nexi chronoboost (if possible) is going to strengten P's early game. Thought i really think recall should go down from 150 to 125.
Oracle: When i started to realize how it can be used, it was just WOW, i really think that it is so awesome, yet not overpowered, will surely bring a lot of SG play. And Getting cloack for some 2 base timing is so huge.
Hope Blizz will balace bad units before release and don't remove the carrier from the game.
I really see Zerg running over both races. Also both Z and T will wipe the floor with P, but as metagame evolve P will survive and overcome obstacles, maybe getting some buffs even.
gg
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Reaper bunker rush will become alot more viable. (like beta?)
Swarm Host look pretty weak compared to tanks and the colossus.
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On June 11 2012 18:38 D4V3Z02 wrote: Reaper bunker rush will become alot more viable. (like beta?) I don't see how. Reapers lost their special attack vs structures and even have lower damage vs light. Their only new bonus is additional health and regen, which has no synergy with a bunker at all.
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On June 09 2012 17:52 SpecFire wrote: Thank you! very helpful
also, wtf, Warhound only 150/75? seems cheap.
It is very inexpensive. It massacres Stalkers too for only 25 additional gas investment.
The only thing keeping the warhound from being OP imo is the lack of anti air. It is a SOLID unit otherwise.
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On June 11 2012 18:40 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 18:38 D4V3Z02 wrote: Reaper bunker rush will become alot more viable. (like beta?) I don't see how. Reapers lost their special attack vs structures and even have lower damage vs light. Their only new bonus is additional health and regen, which has no synergy with a bunker at all.
When you place a bunker in the natural of Metalopolis cant you hit the mineral line in the main with vision on the high ground and the natural with 7 range?
Isnt it also crucial that spinecrawler wont outrange bunker? So bunker which get repaired kill spinecrawler?
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On June 11 2012 18:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:52 SpecFire wrote: Thank you! very helpful
also, wtf, Warhound only 150/75? seems cheap. It is very inexpensive. It massacres Stalkers too for only 25 additional gas investment. The only thing keeping the warhound from being OP imo is the lack of anti air. It is a SOLID unit otherwise.
They are gonna change it somehow IMO. Won't stay long as it is, specially at 2 food.
I don't even know if Immortals soft-counter them at all, with those missiles.
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On June 11 2012 18:55 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 18:40 SmileZerg wrote:On June 11 2012 18:38 D4V3Z02 wrote: Reaper bunker rush will become alot more viable. (like beta?) I don't see how. Reapers lost their special attack vs structures and even have lower damage vs light. Their only new bonus is additional health and regen, which has no synergy with a bunker at all. When you place a bunker in the natural of Metalopolis cant you hit the mineral line in the main with vision on the high ground and the natural with 7 range? Isnt it also crucial that spinecrawler wont outrange bunker? Hate to break it to you but the reported range 7 was a mistake, Reapers are only range 5 in HotS. It'll be 6 in a bunker, but still.
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Good news ), im sorry.
Isn't it wierd that vipers arent psionic? So Vipers wont be sniped when abducting tanks hm.
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They aren't psionic? Really??
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On June 11 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate? Because it doesnt work for units which have several abilities like the new Protoss ones or even BCs in HotS (they get a new ability, right?).
On June 11 2012 06:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. A lot of players are now yamatoing rocks before engagements so they have no energy to get feedback. A. You HAVE TO research the Yamato upgrade first AND B. you HAVE TO wait until all your BCs have 150+ energy ... stupid concept (same for Thors and not every map has rocks close to where they would be needed). A much cheaper solution is to EMP the BCs yourself (what an awesome concept) ... twice obviously since EMP only removes 100 energy, but at least BCs can be stacked.
I hope this makes it crystal clear that Feedback MUST BE CHANGED. The new abilities are nice, but the real purpose for feedback is to counter Ghosts. HTs arent really the best way to deal with Medivacs, because they are above the terran bio army and only if the terran screws up (or tries to drop your base) can you really get them.
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I have a couple questions regarding Widow Mines that I would be thankful to have answered.
1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out?
2. Can widow mines unbury after they have been activated?
3. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)?
4. Scenario: A terran player buries a widow mine at his Zerg opponent's 4th expansion in order to prevent the eventual drone. Zerg sends a drone to plant a hatchery at the 4th which trips the mine right as it's getting close. The timer starts and the drone turns into a hatchery shortly afterwards. Does the spider mine stay on building to destroy it or what?
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On June 11 2012 21:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate? Because it doesnt work for units which have several abilities like the new Protoss ones or even BCs in HotS (they get a new ability, right?). Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. A lot of players are now yamatoing rocks before engagements so they have no energy to get feedback. A. You HAVE TO research the Yamato upgrade first AND B. you HAVE TO wait until all your BCs have 150+ energy ... stupid concept (same for Thors and not every map has rocks close to where they would be needed). A much cheaper solution is to EMP the BCs yourself (what an awesome concept) ... twice obviously since EMP only removes 100 energy, but at least BCs can be stacked. I hope this makes it crystal clear that Feedback MUST BE CHANGED. The new abilities are nice, but the real purpose for feedback is to counter Ghosts. HTs arent really the best way to deal with Medivacs, because they are above the terran bio army and only if the terran screws up (or tries to drop your base) can you really get them. yamato is 125 dude...
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On June 11 2012 21:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate? Because it doesnt work for units which have several abilities like the new Protoss ones or even BCs in HotS (they get a new ability, right?). Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. A lot of players are now yamatoing rocks before engagements so they have no energy to get feedback. + Show Spoiler +A. You HAVE TO research the Yamato upgrade first AND B. you HAVE TO wait until all your BCs have 150+ energy ... stupid concept (same for Thors and not every map has rocks close to where they would be needed). A much cheaper solution is to EMP the BCs yourself (what an awesome concept) ... twice obviously since EMP only removes 100 energy, but at least BCs can be stacked. I hope this makes it crystal clear that Feedback MUST BE CHANGED. The new abilities are nice, but the real purpose for feedback is to counter Ghosts. HTs arent really the best way to deal with Medivacs, because they are above the terran bio army and only if the terran screws up (or tries to drop your base) can you really get them. This thread is about HotS, complaining about how WoL units interact with other WoL units has no place here.
On-topic, I find the Warhound and Battle Hellion so weird for PvT... On the one hand, they should wipe the floor with Chargelot / Stalker. However, I find them to be super susceptible to Force Fields, especially the Battle Hellions, a bit like pure Roach armies in ZvP only more so... Terrans usually deal with Force fields by kiting away from sentries with Stim until Ghosts come out, and if they get caught they can load into a Medivac and hopefully get out, but a Warhound / Hellion army wouldn't have Medivacs and would be pretty gas-heavy, delaying higher tech units.
Warhounds and Hellions also look like they'd have a lot more trouble than MMM against cannons, especially if P has a Templar or two to support them; they also look pretty bad for base trade scenarios. Could we see P getting mass cannons in PvT like Zerg does with Spine Crawlers in ZvP? A meching Terran can always get siege tanks vs. cannons, but Tempests sound like a pretty strong late game answer to a T slow push.
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I just noticed something Reapers don't 2 shot Lings with 7 damage against Light anymore . What the hell why ? Even a group of Lings on Creep would shutdown Reapers completely especially not to mention Queens still exist.
They take away speed , the build damage , nerf the damage overall considerably and all they get is an upgrade that is useless later on and -5 seconds buildtime. They're not making Reapers useful again they're making them even worse and more useless I mean 7 range seems to be false so i don't see any reason to ever build a Reaper again ever beyond 5 minutes into the game. The 10 HP i don't see how that all all can compensate they still only have 60 HP thats not alot.
edit: I noticed something else Reapers would not 3 shot SCV's anymore if the deal 2*7 damage because 3 shots of that would only deal 42 damage ...
Only if 7 range is actually correct Reapers would be a useful unit ...
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love the MommaCore, gunna make nexus fist possible in all matchups. and gateway expos possible in PvZ!!
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So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!) Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them. Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta. The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think.
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On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote: So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!) Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them. Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta. The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think.
This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range.
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On June 11 2012 23:33 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote: So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!) Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them. Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta. The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think. This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range.
then the OP should change this!
Reaper – Light, Biological
Requirement: Barracks w/ Tech Lab
Minerals: 50 Gas: 50 Supply: 1 Build Time: 40 Health: 60 Speed: 2.95 Base Armor: 0 Attack Damage:2 x 4 (7 vs. Light) Attack Range: 7 Attack Delay: 1.1 Upgrade: Combat Drugs
really irritating!
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On June 11 2012 23:33 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote: So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!) Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them. Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta. The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think. This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range.
They will need to buff their range or something anyway. Reaper unable to kite queens make them uselness pretty much.
And you can't even bunker rush that effectively with reaper now that they don't have the building attack.
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On June 11 2012 23:48 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 23:33 s3rp wrote:On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote: So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!) Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them. Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta. The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think. This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range. They will need to buff their range or something anyway. Reaper unable to kite queens make them uselness pretty much. And you can't even bunker rush that effectively with reaper now that they don't have the building attack.
You couldn't even kill Creep Tumors effectivly anymore with a few Reapers because they would need 4 shots for 1 Tumor.
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tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability.
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On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote: tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability.
About as imba as infestors with neural parasite.
Amirite?
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I really don't get everyone's obsession with the widow mine. I can see some select strategies that they counter which I'll point out, but I simply don't believe that justifies their spot in the game.
Advantages Against Each Race
vTerran + Show Spoiler +- Banshee / Cloaked Banshee Rush: Widow mines feel like they were designed specifically to destroy banshees. They only require a factory as tech, have an incredibly short build time, can detect cloaked, and can be placed near the mineral lines to ensure a kill. A smart player could even plant a widow mine near the ramp between their natural and lure the banshee with a SCV transfer. - Dropship Play: Same concept as the banshee though less reliable. Medivacs usually unload in odd spots before attacking and there's also the chance that the mine might randomly target a unit that was just deployed. The 10 second is also detrimental to their effectiveness here.
vProtoss + Show Spoiler +- Starport Tech: Phoenixes, voidrays, and oracles all fall to the spider mine in a similar fashion as the banshee. The phoenix will be the most likely to get caught with their fast movement speed and scouting role. Oracles, on the contrary, will protection if pre-ordain is used on the nexus to scout for widow mines within the mineral line (though that also leads to predictability). - Dark Templar: The fact that Protoss loses a 100 gas when a spider mine attaches to one of these units is horrifying for how well they counter them. A widow mine placed in a choke point can easily serve as both detection and general defense against Protoss. If not, the mines within the mineral lines will get the dark templars regardless.
vZerg + Show Spoiler +- Mutas: If the pattern wasn't already obvious, widow mines work exceptionally well against flying units that try to counter-attack while Terran's main force is away. The short attack-range of mutas also forces them into predictable positions while being unable to directly attack the mines. A morphed overseer added into the muta pack, however, makes this significantly less effective. - Burrowed Infestors: Note that this only counters infestors burrowing into Terran's base if an overseer hasn't already scouted it's path. If an overseer has, then expect the infestors to either destroy them for 25 energy or use a different, safer route into the unsuspecting base.
Counters
vTerran + Show Spoiler +- Marines & Marauders: The bread and butter of bio as well as the main units that will be found in a counter-attack. The uncontrollable nature of widow mines means these will be the likely targets and result in inefficient trades. - Hellions: Mech's mineral dump, a.k.a. the hellion, results in a 25 mineral for 25 gas trade. That also assumes that the hellion neither kills any unit nor scouts any valuable information in the 10 seconds it has before detonation. - Warhouds: The warhound's high health allows them to survive the blast and their anti-mech missiles will automatically rip them out of the ground. - Thor: Same reasoning as the warhound. - Raven / Scans: Detection if sacrificing units isn't a reasonable option.
vZerg + Show Spoiler +- Zerglings & Roaches: Though roaches might not always be in a zerg army; I gaurantee that zerglings will. They're present from beginning to end and will likely be the front-runners of any counterattack. This combination of T1 units makes the resources traded simply painful for the Terran player. The saving grace is that Zerg has better things to do then micro units. - Overlords: Designate one or two to sweep for mines. They don't take up supply so the Zerg army isn't affected and the trade in resources is beneficial. - Broodlings, Locusts & Infested Terrans: These temporary units may not force detonations but that doesn't stop them from destroying the widow mines when given detection. - Nydus Network: An alternate path that avoids the widow mines entirely. - Ultralisks: Can survive multiple widow mines with the added benefit that only one can latch on at a time to prevent a guaranteed kill. - Banelings: ... - Spine Crawler: ...?
vProtoss + Show Spoiler + I'm not going to deny that losing any unit, save possibly the zealot, is a heavy loss when taken out by a widow mine. The question, however, is how often will that happen? Most Protoss builds already have some kind of innate protection against widow mines. - Blink Stalker: The observer that grants vision on the high ground will also allow your stalkers to pick off mines as they move across the map. - Collossus Timings: Same as before with using the observer to destroy mines. - Immortal Timings: Let the immortals lead the way and widow mines will waste themselves to deal a measly 10 rechargeable damage. - Warp Prism: A route along the edge of the map ensures that you avoid the widow mines and it really doesn't matter if you collect one while in the base. The small aoe and 10 second delay should warp prism to both unload and warp in a set of units before being destroyed. - Stargate Tech: Incorporate an oracle into the build and pre-ordain the pylon on the low ground for detection (2nd part is optional and used to take out widow mines buried on the edge). - Chargelot / Archon: Sacrifice some zealots and it's good to go.
So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked?
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PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building?
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On June 11 2012 23:48 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 23:33 s3rp wrote:On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote: So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!) Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them. Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta. The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think. This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range. They will need to buff their range or something anyway. Reaper unable to kite queens make them uselness pretty much. And you can't even bunker rush that effectively with reaper now that they don't have the building attack. I agree. 1 reaper won't do shit against the UltraQueen. I think if you commit to 3 though you could hop in the main, kill 1 or 2 drones without losing any reaper and hop back, but for one, do you really want to commit to 3 reapers? ("no" is the answer), and for two, zerg probably has speed by then and reapers are fucked without their own speed upgrade...
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I have 3 quick questions regarding the ghost, the corruptors and the raven for those who play at the mlg : - Do corruptors have the "syphonning ability" in Hots ? Or was the ability removed ? - Do the ghosts have the new cloaking ability (something like "x" seconds cloaking duration with "y" seconds cd maybe?) - Any little modifications about the raven ? (slight redution in cost, build time slighty reduced ?)
thanks
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On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote: Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job! And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper
It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone?
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 12 2012 01:00 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote: Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job! And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone?
No, the warhound doesnt shoot up so the thor still in.
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On June 12 2012 01:00 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote: Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job! And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone?
The Warhound is nothing like the Goliath in terms of gameplay...
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On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote: tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability. About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite?
They isn''th any counter play at " My unit got pulled" Against NP, you kill the infestors who can't move and it end. Counter play.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote: tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability. About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite?
It's a bit different though; you can focus fire an infestor channeling neural, but once you get the abduct off that unit is basically down for good. We'll see how it plays out.
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So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked?
You just see its defensive capabilities while other people see their huge aggression potential too. By the time you do a reactor hellion expand, you could have produced 6 mines, burrowing them next to gateways (and kill every unit coming out before detection) or right under queens, in mineral lines, or anywhere you think 200 guaranteed damage would add nicely.
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On June 12 2012 01:00 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote: Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job! And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone? It is very different from the Goliath in SC1, since they don't attack air and they have anti mech focus with the missiles. Also, the Thor is still here
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On June 12 2012 00:41 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 23:48 Noocta wrote:On June 11 2012 23:33 s3rp wrote:On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote: So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!) Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them. Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta. The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think. This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range. They will need to buff their range or something anyway. Reaper unable to kite queens make them uselness pretty much. And you can't even bunker rush that effectively with reaper now that they don't have the building attack. I agree. 1 reaper won't do shit against the UltraQueen. I think if you commit to 3 though you could hop in the main, kill 1 or 2 drones without losing any reaper and hop back, but for one, do you really want to commit to 3 reapers? ("no" is the answer), and for two, zerg probably has speed by then and reapers are fucked without their own speed upgrade...
The guy in the battle report build 3 Reapers and although the Zerg had zero lings or spines he killed 4 Drones at most before they died . Great investment.
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On June 12 2012 01:11 Charon1979 wrote: You just see its defensive capabilities while other people see their huge aggression potential too. By the time you do a reactor hellion expand, you could have produced 6 mines, burrowing them next to gateways (and kill every unit coming out before detection) or right under queens, in mineral lines, or anywhere you think 200 guaranteed damage would add nicely.
Let's take things one step at a time. 1. You open the with a reactor factory build and produce 6 widow mines. Awesome, widow mines can be good but it's important to note that we no longer have hellions. 2. You take your 6 widow mines into your opponent's base. - Your Protoss opponent didn't make a forge which would grant detection (i.e. cannons), wall himself off to prevent units from entering his base, research warpgate so that his T1 units come out directly from his gateways, or create any units to destroy the widow mines whlie they spend 3 seconds burrowing. - Your Terran opponent also didn't wall himself, create any marines which could destroy the spider mines from a safe distance, or upgrade his CC into a observatory which would grant him scans. - Your Zerg opponent has no zerglings which would trip the mines nor any that would attack them. In addition, their queen is spamming the stop command so she also attack or simply waddle away. If that wasn't enough, they didn't see the widow mines move on their creep nor have a spine crawler gaurding their base. 3. You take out some of their T1 units and all of your widow mines are now dead.
So... how again does this make widow mines good again?
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On June 12 2012 02:11 willoc wrote: Just like banelings they will totally suck! Everyone always stays 100% focused on their army ball when they are moving it around the map anyway! /sarcasm.
How can compare rolling banelings with widow mines?
Banelings: Detonates on contact (or manually if necessary) with a bonus to light units which they're supposed to counter. They also serve the role of weakening your opponent's army so that the muta / zergling back-up can clear away the remains.
Widow Mines: Take 3 seconds to burrow, independently select a unit to attach to within their range (which I believe is 4), and have a 10 second delay before exploding...
Tell me how that works half your spider mines are destroyed before burrowing at your opponent's feet while the other half are don't matter because your opponent took two steps back.
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On June 12 2012 01:09 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote: tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability. About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite? It's a bit different though; you can focus fire an infestor channeling neural, but once you get the abduct off that unit is basically down for good. We'll see how it plays out.
I was more pointing out how NP got nerfed from 9 range to useless.
And people are already complaining about abduct from 7 range and it hasn't even hit the game yet. Can't wait for the future 4 range abduct... Will be awesome...
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I'm still saying that abduct should be like devourer/pudge hook cause it'll be kinda funny
I also don't think that the widow mines + swarm hosts' locusts should be able to shoot up (also if the locusts dont' hit up, then maybe I can use ravens to try to hsm the swarmhosts - like lurker+sci vessel, but atm I don't think you can do that cause the locusts would just kill it...)
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Hydra speed and burrow charge for ultras will bring back the feeling of zerg swarming, fast and fragile is how I like my zerg. In WoL zerg felt so slow... hydras almost never see play, ultra is so easy to micro against, broods.... Now we can mix in speed hydras to protect broods and have a better reason to switch the ultra!
Love that the mineral lockout is not purely time based, the spine crawler hitting them off fixed all my fears of Protoss becoming mass harassment.
Warhound: THANK YOU. TvT really needs this! Not sure how useful it will be against other races. Battle mode hellions don't make sense as far as storyline. Why do hitpoints change? I fell that it should be a change to armour, +2 in battle mode. Like if a transformer morphed to a mode that allowed it to be better covered by plating at the cost of speed. curious how it will work if they keep it as hitpoint change, what if it's taken damage before morphing? Will it scale or just stay at the level of damage ie: 50/100 hp scaled down to 25/50 or still 50/50.
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On June 12 2012 01:51 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 01:11 Charon1979 wrote: You just see its defensive capabilities while other people see their huge aggression potential too. By the time you do a reactor hellion expand, you could have produced 6 mines, burrowing them next to gateways (and kill every unit coming out before detection) or right under queens, in mineral lines, or anywhere you think 200 guaranteed damage would add nicely. Let's take things one step at a time. 1. You open the with a reactor factory build and produce 6 widow mines. Awesome, widow mines can be good but it's important to note that we no longer have hellions. 2. You take your 6 widow mines into your opponent's base. - Your Protoss opponent didn't make a forge which would grant detection (i.e. cannons), wall himself off to prevent units from entering his base, research warpgate so that his T1 units come out directly from his gateways, or create any units to destroy the widow mines whlie they spend 3 seconds burrowing. - Your Terran opponent also didn't wall himself, create any marines which could destroy the spider mines from a safe distance, or upgrade his CC into a observatory which would grant him scans. - Your Zerg opponent has no zerglings which would trip the mines nor any that would attack them. In addition, their queen is spamming the stop command so she also attack or simply waddle away. If that wasn't enough, they didn't see the widow mines move on their creep nor have a spine crawler gaurding their base. 3. You take out some of their T1 units and all of your widow mines are now dead. So... how again does this make widow mines good again?
Just like banelings they will totally suck! Everyone always stays 100% focused on their army ball when they are moving it around the map anyway! /sarcasm.
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On June 12 2012 02:01 zhurai wrote: I'm still saying that abduct should be like devourer/pudge hook cause it'll be kinda funny
I also don't think that the widow mines + swarm hosts' locusts should be able to shoot up (also if the locusts dont' hit up, then maybe I can use ravens to try to hsm the swarmhosts - like lurker+sci vessel, but atm I don't think you can do that cause the locusts would just kill it...)
You'd send a raven out without any support? Try sending a few marines to engage the locust, they don't seem to be very strong units.
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On June 12 2012 01:54 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 01:09 Teoita wrote:On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote: tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability. About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite? It's a bit different though; you can focus fire an infestor channeling neural, but once you get the abduct off that unit is basically down for good. We'll see how it plays out. I was more pointing out how NP got nerfed from 9 range to useless. And people are already complaining about abduct from 7 range and it hasn't even hit the game yet. Can't wait for the future 4 range abduct... Will be awesome...
It is easier just to change the distance it pulls, rather than the range of the spell. It allows them to balance it's effects on the battle without forcing the controling play to put a super pricey unit at extream risk every time.
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Can anyone recreate this into the HoTs custom map? I for one want to see how TvT plays out now. I mean, the warhound is cheaper than the tank, more mobile, directly counters it. What is that going to look like?
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On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote: PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building?
1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units.
2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out.
I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective.
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On June 12 2012 02:22 Snoodles wrote: Can anyone recreate this into the HoTs custom map? I for one want to see how TvT plays out now. I mean, the warhound is cheaper than the tank, more mobile, directly counters it. What is that going to look like?
I am not sure that is correct. The Warhound does good damage to against tanks, but also takes good damage from them as well. I am sure that tanks with their own warhound support would pretty efficiently deal with a pure warhound push. With a range of 7 on is main attack.
Plus the freaking mines that deal with everything efficiently except for zerglings, zealots and marines.
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On June 12 2012 02:26 gurrpp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote: PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? 1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units. 2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out. I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective.
They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines.
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On June 12 2012 02:26 gurrpp wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote: PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? 1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units. 2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out. I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective.
Damn, I was really hoping that killing the unit would force a detonation. That would also serve for some interesting gameplay if you had the ability to manually attach the mine to one of your units. Place one on a tank that you feel is about to be abducted or on a sacrificial maruader whose about to stim for his last time.
How effective would you say you found them overall? What were their best uses, and if it was offensive then how did you get them in place?
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On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines.
I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see. Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go.
1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears. 2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions. 3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be. 4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack.
You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds.
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bye bye banshee openers TvT
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On June 12 2012 03:03 gurrpp wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I would say they're pretty ineffective. I didn't use them really at all tvt, since they're not very useful vs marines. I played zerg vs terran and found them pretty annoying. Like I said, vipers can be easily picked off. I'm also sure you could do other annoying stuff with the mines, such as making queens afraid to move out to plant tumors early game, leaving one at the zerg's third in case he snuck a drone past your hellions. In other words, you can force zerg to have to clear the map with overseers. PvT is ueseless, since you can just keep your army together with an observer. I guess you could catch an oracle out, but they still seem kind of useless, from my limited experience of them.
I think the main problem is they won't ever do splash damage if you split your units, so you want to go for expensive units which can be one shot with the mines in order to be cost effective. Maybe if blizzard made the timer go away and had an animation for the mine latching on, it might make it more interesting.
Hmmm... it'll be interesting to see how they change them for the future. Did you get a chance to play around with the shredder before it was scrapped for the widow mine? If so, how did they compare in their role of "managing space" and preventing "couter-attacks"?
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On June 12 2012 02:37 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:26 gurrpp wrote:On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote: PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? 1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units. 2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out. I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective. Damn, I was really hoping that killing the unit would force a detonation. That would also serve for some interesting gameplay if you had the ability to manually attach the mine to one of your units. Place one on a tank that you feel is about to be abducted or on a sacrificial maruader whose about to stim for his last time. How effective would you say you found them overall? What were their best uses, and if it was offensive then how did you get them in place?
I would say they're pretty ineffective. I didn't use them really at all tvt, since they're not very useful vs marines. I played zerg vs terran and found them pretty annoying. Like I said, vipers can be easily picked off. I'm also sure you could do other annoying stuff with the mines, such as making queens afraid to move out to plant tumors early game, leaving one at the zerg's third in case he snuck a drone past your hellions. In other words, you can force zerg to have to clear the map with overseers. PvT is ueseless, since you can just keep your army together with an observer. I guess you could catch an oracle out, but they still seem kind of useless, from my limited experience of them.
I think the main problem is they won't ever do splash damage if you split your units, so you want to go for expensive units which can be one shot with the mines in order to be cost effective. Maybe if blizzard made the timer go away and had an animation for the mine latching on, it might make it more interesting.
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On June 12 2012 02:37 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines. I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see. Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go. 1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears. 2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions. 3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be. 4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack. You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds.
That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by.
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On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by.
You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build.
- Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines.
The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
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On June 12 2012 04:09 Garmer wrote: widow mine take only one supply, and it's supposed to use them with tank
Based on what Gurpp observed, widow mines don't detonate on units that have been destroyed.
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widow mine take only one supply, and it's supposed to use them with tank
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On June 12 2012 04:04 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
Seriously? Yes. Protoss wants to build good units. How this supports your case, I have no idea. Am I supposed to max out Probes against Terran or something?
Mineral and gas values make everything decieving? So if a Mine kills my Stalker, the fact that the Stalker has greater "mineral and gas values" decieved me, and really I should keep trading Stalkers one by one into Mines?
I'm really confused as to what you are trying to get to.
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With the current stats tempests seems quite bad.
vrs massive they do 66 damage every 6 seconds or 11 dps. That the dps if a single stim marine IIRC
yeah they have 22 range but what is the point of doing bad damage at long range
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wish scourge was in there T_T
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On June 12 2012 04:04 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
I personally don't think it will work that way at all and I am excited to see how people end up using the unit. Right now, zerg make great us of burrowed lings against protoss and I am sure that terran can do the same. DRG, who just won MLG, thought they were amazing units and hoped they were nerfed. But clearly you have figured it out.
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On June 12 2012 04:15 whateversclever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Seriously? Yes. Protoss wants to build good units. How this supports your case, I have no idea. Am I supposed to max out Probes against Terran or something?
Mineral and gas values make everything decieving? So if a Mine kills my Stalker, the fact that the Stalker has greater "mineral and gas values" decieved me, and really I should keep trading Stalkers one by one into Mines?
I'm really confused as to what you are trying to get to.
The three posts within the spoiler below contain my analysis on widow mines.
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +I really don't get everyone's obsession with the widow mine. I can see some select strategies that they counter which I'll point out, but I simply don't believe that justifies their spot in the game. Advantages Against Each RacevTerran+ Show Spoiler +- Banshee / Cloaked Banshee Rush: Widow mines feel like they were designed specifically to destroy banshees. They only require a factory as tech, have an incredibly short build time, can detect cloaked, and can be placed near the mineral lines to ensure a kill. A smart player could even plant a widow mine near the ramp between their natural and lure the banshee with a SCV transfer. - Dropship Play: Same concept as the banshee though less reliable. Medivacs usually unload in odd spots before attacking and there's also the chance that the mine might randomly target a unit that was just deployed. The 10 second is also detrimental to their effectiveness here. vProtoss+ Show Spoiler +- Starport Tech: Phoenixes, voidrays, and oracles all fall to the spider mine in a similar fashion as the banshee. The phoenix will be the most likely to get caught with their fast movement speed and scouting role. Oracles, on the contrary, will protection if pre-ordain is used on the nexus to scout for widow mines within the mineral line (though that also leads to predictability). - Dark Templar: The fact that Protoss loses a 100 gas when a spider mine attaches to one of these units is horrifying for how well they counter them. A widow mine placed in a choke point can easily serve as both detection and general defense against Protoss. If not, the mines within the mineral lines will get the dark templars regardless. vZerg+ Show Spoiler +- Mutas: If the pattern wasn't already obvious, widow mines work exceptionally well against flying units that try to counter-attack while Terran's main force is away. The short attack-range of mutas also forces them into predictable positions while being unable to directly attack the mines. A morphed overseer added into the muta pack, however, makes this significantly less effective. - Burrowed Infestors: Note that this only counters infestors burrowing into Terran's base if an overseer hasn't already scouted it's path. If an overseer has, then expect the infestors to either destroy them for 25 energy or use a different, safer route into the unsuspecting base. CountersvTerran+ Show Spoiler +- Marines & Marauders: The bread and butter of bio as well as the main units that will be found in a counter-attack. The uncontrollable nature of widow mines means these will be the likely targets and result in inefficient trades. - Hellions: Mech's mineral dump, a.k.a. the hellion, results in a 25 mineral for 25 gas trade. That also assumes that the hellion neither kills any unit nor scouts any valuable information in the 10 seconds it has before detonation. - Warhouds: The warhound's high health allows them to survive the blast and their anti-mech missiles will automatically rip them out of the ground. - Thor: Same reasoning as the warhound. - Raven / Scans: Detection if sacrificing units isn't a reasonable option. vZerg+ Show Spoiler +- Zerglings & Roaches: Though roaches might not always be in a zerg army; I gaurantee that zerglings will. They're present from beginning to end and will likely be the front-runners of any counterattack. This combination of T1 units makes the resources traded simply painful for the Terran player. The saving grace is that Zerg has better things to do then micro units. - Overlords: Designate one or two to sweep for mines. They don't take up supply so the Zerg army isn't affected and the trade in resources is beneficial. - Broodlings, Locusts & Infested Terrans: These temporary units may not force detonations but that doesn't stop them from destroying the widow mines when given detection. - Nydus Network: An alternate path that avoids the widow mines entirely. - Ultralisks: Can survive multiple widow mines with the added benefit that only one can latch on at a time to prevent a guaranteed kill. - Banelings: ... - Spine Crawler: ...? vProtoss+ Show Spoiler + I'm not going to deny that losing any unit, save possibly the zealot, is a heavy loss when taken out by a widow mine. The question, however, is how often will that happen? Most Protoss builds already have some kind of innate protection against widow mines. - Blink Stalker: The observer that grants vision on the high ground will also allow your stalkers to pick off mines as they move across the map. - Collossus Timings: Same as before with using the observer to destroy mines. - Immortal Timings: Let the immortals lead the way and widow mines will waste themselves to deal a measly 10 rechargeable damage. - Warp Prism: A route along the edge of the map ensures that you avoid the widow mines and it really doesn't matter if you collect one while in the base. The small aoe and 10 second delay should warp prism to both unload and warp in a set of units before being destroyed. - Stargate Tech: Incorporate an oracle into the build and pre-ordain the pylon on the low ground for detection (2nd part is optional and used to take out widow mines buried on the edge). - Chargelot / Archon: Sacrifice some zealots and it's good to go. So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked? - - - - - - - - - - PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with. Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines. I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see. Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go. 1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears. 2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions. 3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be. 4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack. You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
So, in short, a Protoss's stalker should never be taken out by a widow mine. They come out after Protoss's early agression and the main attack will already have something that counters them.
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On June 12 2012 04:23 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I personally don't think it will work that way at all and I am excited to see how people end up using the unit. Right now, zerg make great us of burrowed lings against protoss and I am sure that terran can do the same. DRG, who just won MLG, thought they were amazing units and hoped they were nerfed. But clearly you have figured it out.
No, I am here because I don't know how to optimally use the unit and was hoping that someone could show me what I'm missing.
Some effective ideas that spring to mind would be... - Disabling Reinforcements: Positioning the spider mines would be a hassle but the pay-off would be rewarding (similar to Gurrpp's tactic of intercepting vipers as they head back to base). - The "Oh **** That Ended Badly* Unit: Your entire army got destroyed and now the enemy is pressing in. Build as many of these as possible to slow down their advance since widow mines don't require other units to be effective.
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On June 12 2012 04:16 Tantaburs wrote: With the current stats tempests seems quite bad.
vrs massive they do 66 damage every 6 seconds or 11 dps. That the dps if a single stim marine IIRC
yeah they have 22 range but what is the point of doing bad damage at long range
Well that's a bit of a misnomer b/c against a 5 armor ultralisk, an un-upgraded marine does ~1 damage per shot, dps reduced by ~85%. The tempest has 1 huge volley, so it's dps is reduced by only ~7%. Especially since this is geared as an anti-massive or anti-building unit, raw dps numbers don't tell the whole story.
Still, I'm holding out to see the usefulness. It feels a tad too gimmicky/turtley atm, but it has potential.
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On June 11 2012 19:00 D4V3Z02 wrote: Good news ), im sorry.
Isn't it wierd that vipers arent psionic? So Vipers wont be sniped when abducting tanks hm.
I doubt that will stay. Vipers will be psionic so ghosts can be good vs them
Despite being a protoss player I was definatly more excited about the zerg units
The swarm hosts looks to be a good way for zerg to be really cost-efficient in the mid-game. I think when they're figured out they're gonna be the best unit of this expansion. I just wish they'd change the name of Swarmer or something.
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In a game with energy-costing storm and fungal I don't see why people are so worried that the widow mine will do TOO MUCH damage for its cost. Must be people who have never lost all their units to multiple storm.
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On June 11 2012 21:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate? Because it doesnt work for units which have several abilities like the new Protoss ones or even BCs in HotS (they get a new ability, right?).
The operative word was "appropriate". Multiple-ability units probably make sense being based on energy since they are casters. Non-casters probably shouldn't have multiple abilities in the first place.
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Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches.
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On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote: Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches.
That's not unprecedented. In BW, lockdown literally does nothing in TvZ.
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On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote: Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches. I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss.
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On June 12 2012 05:11 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote: Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches. I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss.
It wouldn't make sense, actually, no more than it would make sense for Terran mech to be bio/mechanical just because there's a biological occupant.
SCVs have the biological type because they are substantially composed of something biological, but most of the mass of a vehicle or a stalker is mechanical.
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On June 12 2012 05:25 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:11 SmileZerg wrote:On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote: Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches. I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss. It wouldn't make sense, actually, no more than it would make sense for Terran mech to be bio/mechanical just because there's a biological occupant. SCVs have the biological type because they are substantially composed of something biological, but most of the mass of a vehicle or a stalker is mechanical. A stalker is just a dark templar in a mechanical frame - not even fully enclosed, his head sticks out the front for fuck's sake. Marauders have more a right to be considered mechanical than a Stalker does, and yet they are classified as bio only.
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Is the Warhound's autocast Haywire attack count as spell damage or upgradable secondary weapon damage?
Does the battle hellion require a full attack animation to do it's cone damage or can it be stutter step micro'd to a useful degree?
Can you widow mine your own units? Can you pick up units with widow mines deployed on them? Do they kill the medivac? Transfer to the medivac? Can they be used as aerial bombardment by dropping scv's laden with widow mines on to enemy units?
The viper is NOT psionic? Whew boy... I guess ghosts really are becoming niche in TvZ.
What is the size of the Mothership Core's mass recall? Is it the same as the Mothership (absolutely gigantic) or just the slightly larger than fungal size it was on the old reveal?
Oh, ultralisk viper harass is going to be righteous... charge into a mineral line, instantly aoe smash scv's and then abduct them back.... then constantly repeat because it only costs 75 energy and viper can consume xDDD
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Do you get a combat alert when a mine is attachted to a unit or when it explodes?
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On June 12 2012 05:31 kranten wrote: Do you get a combat alert when a mine is attachted to a unit or when it explodes? I don't see why you wouldn't get one upon detonation, but I don't believe they would alert you when it attaches.
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I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap.
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On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote: I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap. It can be either but that depends entirely on player skill. That's EXACTLY what this game needs. Widow Mine better make it in, even if it has to see some tweaks. It's easily the coolest thing Terran is getting with the most interesting changes to the various match-ups.
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On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote: I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap.
They actually seem very interesting, besides having such a long time to move the affected units out of your cluster? That's compensating a lot.
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On June 12 2012 05:29 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:25 sunprince wrote:On June 12 2012 05:11 SmileZerg wrote:On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote: Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches. I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss. It wouldn't make sense, actually, no more than it would make sense for Terran mech to be bio/mechanical just because there's a biological occupant. SCVs have the biological type because they are substantially composed of something biological, but most of the mass of a vehicle or a stalker is mechanical. A stalker is just a dark templar in a mechanical frame - not even fully enclosed, his head sticks out the front for fuck's sake. Marauders have more a right to be considered mechanical than a Stalker does, and yet they are classified as bio only. Arent Stalkers just the "essence of a Protoss stored in a crystal" at the core of a big mechanical animated unit? Thus there isnt any flesh involved and "biological" wouldnt make sense.
On June 11 2012 23:15 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 21:17 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate? Because it doesnt work for units which have several abilities like the new Protoss ones or even BCs in HotS (they get a new ability, right?). On June 11 2012 06:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote: Feedback is lousy As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. A lot of players are now yamatoing rocks before engagements so they have no energy to get feedback. + Show Spoiler +A. You HAVE TO research the Yamato upgrade first AND B. you HAVE TO wait until all your BCs have 150+ energy ... stupid concept (same for Thors and not every map has rocks close to where they would be needed). A much cheaper solution is to EMP the BCs yourself (what an awesome concept) ... twice obviously since EMP only removes 100 energy, but at least BCs can be stacked. I hope this makes it crystal clear that Feedback MUST BE CHANGED. The new abilities are nice, but the real purpose for feedback is to counter Ghosts. HTs arent really the best way to deal with Medivacs, because they are above the terran bio army and only if the terran screws up (or tries to drop your base) can you really get them. This thread is about HotS, complaining about how WoL units interact with other WoL units has no place here. You do realize that units dont exist in a sandbox and that you have to look at them while having the rest of the game in the back of your mind?(*1) Thus it is important to point out that the relatively cheap spell Feedback will make the new units pretty much useless in a PvP and that there are certain necessary changes to keep them viable and fun. The whole "Feedback needs to be changed for the sake of new Protoss units" has its beginnings in the total stupidity of being able to kill Thors and Battlecruisers - whose energy is purely mechanical and not psionic and shouldnt be affected by that psionic feedback ability - very easily with that spell which is a legacy of Wings of Liberty. Either feedback gets changed or Blizzard has created a few more new units which are useful as BCs and Thors against Protoss.
(*1) Check the second sentence in the paragraph Tump quoted from my earlier post ... Sure I started with BCs, but the same "logic" would apply to the new units and keeping feedback as it is would make the units useless.
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my god, people arguing without playing the game can't wait to mech vs protoss
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Regarding the Mechanical vs. Biological debate and people discussing Stalkers and how things worked in BW: In BW, these tags were a bit messed up anyway.
Some abilities affected mechanical units (Lockdown), some affected biological units (Irradiate, Heal, Maelstrom). So far so good. However, Spawn Broodling seems to affect biological units, but affected units that are not affected by Irradiate / Heal / Maelstrom (Vultures, Goliaths, Tanks, Dragoons). On the SC site it says the ability targets any non-robotic ground unit, and yet it doesn't work on Archons or Dark Archons- neither of which is robotic (there is no such thing as a "robotic" unit tag in SC anyway).
In SC2, the PDD is the closest thing to Spawn Broodling from SC:BW in terms of just affecting some units but not others with no additional specification as to whether they have to be massive, mechanical, biological, armored, light, psionic, etc... at least the game's help menu specifically tells you which units it works against; the game seems to be pretty consistent with its tags otherwise (still kind of perplexed about the Viper not being considered Psionic TBH, it might just be an oversight). As to whether Blinding Cloud should affect Stalkers or not... I'm getting the impression that with HotS, Blizzard intentionally decided to add some matchup-specific mechanics. They wanted mech to be better against Protoss without making it any better against Zerg, so they add the Warhound which is only half as good as it should be if the enemy has no mechanical units; Mothership Core recall looks like it was very specifically put there to allow Protoss to attack Zerg in the early game without risking outright losing the game if Zerg made lots of speedlings and catches you out in the field; In the case of Blinding Cloud, I'm guessing they wanted to give Z more options in TvZ and not so much in ZvP (for instance, Zerglings with Blinding Cloud should be good vs. Marines; Zerglings don't need Blinding Cloud to be good vs. Stalkers).
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Just an interesting thought but isn't a nydus worm considered a building. Vipers can only supposedly latch onto buildings. Those cannot regenerate energy in combat on the otherside of the map however if you have a worm present than you theoretically could regenerate energy while attacking the other players base.
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On June 12 2012 04:31 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:15 whateversclever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Seriously? Yes. Protoss wants to build good units. How this supports your case, I have no idea. Am I supposed to max out Probes against Terran or something?
Mineral and gas values make everything decieving? So if a Mine kills my Stalker, the fact that the Stalker has greater "mineral and gas values" decieved me, and really I should keep trading Stalkers one by one into Mines?
I'm really confused as to what you are trying to get to. The three posts within the spoiler below contain my analysis on widow mines. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +I really don't get everyone's obsession with the widow mine. I can see some select strategies that they counter which I'll point out, but I simply don't believe that justifies their spot in the game. Advantages Against Each RacevTerran+ Show Spoiler +- Banshee / Cloaked Banshee Rush: Widow mines feel like they were designed specifically to destroy banshees. They only require a factory as tech, have an incredibly short build time, can detect cloaked, and can be placed near the mineral lines to ensure a kill. A smart player could even plant a widow mine near the ramp between their natural and lure the banshee with a SCV transfer. - Dropship Play: Same concept as the banshee though less reliable. Medivacs usually unload in odd spots before attacking and there's also the chance that the mine might randomly target a unit that was just deployed. The 10 second is also detrimental to their effectiveness here. vProtoss+ Show Spoiler +- Starport Tech: Phoenixes, voidrays, and oracles all fall to the spider mine in a similar fashion as the banshee. The phoenix will be the most likely to get caught with their fast movement speed and scouting role. Oracles, on the contrary, will protection if pre-ordain is used on the nexus to scout for widow mines within the mineral line (though that also leads to predictability). - Dark Templar: The fact that Protoss loses a 100 gas when a spider mine attaches to one of these units is horrifying for how well they counter them. A widow mine placed in a choke point can easily serve as both detection and general defense against Protoss. If not, the mines within the mineral lines will get the dark templars regardless. vZerg+ Show Spoiler +- Mutas: If the pattern wasn't already obvious, widow mines work exceptionally well against flying units that try to counter-attack while Terran's main force is away. The short attack-range of mutas also forces them into predictable positions while being unable to directly attack the mines. A morphed overseer added into the muta pack, however, makes this significantly less effective. - Burrowed Infestors: Note that this only counters infestors burrowing into Terran's base if an overseer hasn't already scouted it's path. If an overseer has, then expect the infestors to either destroy them for 25 energy or use a different, safer route into the unsuspecting base. CountersvTerran+ Show Spoiler +- Marines & Marauders: The bread and butter of bio as well as the main units that will be found in a counter-attack. The uncontrollable nature of widow mines means these will be the likely targets and result in inefficient trades. - Hellions: Mech's mineral dump, a.k.a. the hellion, results in a 25 mineral for 25 gas trade. That also assumes that the hellion neither kills any unit nor scouts any valuable information in the 10 seconds it has before detonation. - Warhouds: The warhound's high health allows them to survive the blast and their anti-mech missiles will automatically rip them out of the ground. - Thor: Same reasoning as the warhound. - Raven / Scans: Detection if sacrificing units isn't a reasonable option. vZerg+ Show Spoiler +- Zerglings & Roaches: Though roaches might not always be in a zerg army; I gaurantee that zerglings will. They're present from beginning to end and will likely be the front-runners of any counterattack. This combination of T1 units makes the resources traded simply painful for the Terran player. The saving grace is that Zerg has better things to do then micro units. - Overlords: Designate one or two to sweep for mines. They don't take up supply so the Zerg army isn't affected and the trade in resources is beneficial. - Broodlings, Locusts & Infested Terrans: These temporary units may not force detonations but that doesn't stop them from destroying the widow mines when given detection. - Nydus Network: An alternate path that avoids the widow mines entirely. - Ultralisks: Can survive multiple widow mines with the added benefit that only one can latch on at a time to prevent a guaranteed kill. - Banelings: ... - Spine Crawler: ...? vProtoss+ Show Spoiler + I'm not going to deny that losing any unit, save possibly the zealot, is a heavy loss when taken out by a widow mine. The question, however, is how often will that happen? Most Protoss builds already have some kind of innate protection against widow mines. - Blink Stalker: The observer that grants vision on the high ground will also allow your stalkers to pick off mines as they move across the map. - Collossus Timings: Same as before with using the observer to destroy mines. - Immortal Timings: Let the immortals lead the way and widow mines will waste themselves to deal a measly 10 rechargeable damage. - Warp Prism: A route along the edge of the map ensures that you avoid the widow mines and it really doesn't matter if you collect one while in the base. The small aoe and 10 second delay should warp prism to both unload and warp in a set of units before being destroyed. - Stargate Tech: Incorporate an oracle into the build and pre-ordain the pylon on the low ground for detection (2nd part is optional and used to take out widow mines buried on the edge). - Chargelot / Archon: Sacrifice some zealots and it's good to go. So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked? - - - - - - - - - - PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with. Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines. I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see. Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go. 1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears. 2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions. 3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be. 4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack. You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best. So, in short, a Protoss's stalker should never be taken out by a widow mine. They come out after Protoss's early agression and the main attack will already have something that counters them. - - - - - - - - Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:23 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I personally don't think it will work that way at all and I am excited to see how people end up using the unit. Right now, zerg make great us of burrowed lings against protoss and I am sure that terran can do the same. DRG, who just won MLG, thought they were amazing units and hoped they were nerfed. But clearly you have figured it out. No, I am here because I don't know how to optimally use the unit and was hoping that someone could show me what I'm missing. Some effective ideas that spring to mind would be...- Disabling Reinforcements: Positioning the spider mines would be a hassle but the pay-off would be rewarding (similar to Gurrpp's tactic of intercepting vipers as they head back to base). - The "Oh **** That Ended Badly* Unit: Your entire army got destroyed and now the enemy is pressing in. Build as many of these as possible to slow down their advance since widow mines don't require other units to be effective.
good points and analysis.
However, as I understand the activation range is six, right? therefore the only way you can kill it without losses is with units of 7 range or more (very rare) & a detector or with rines/lings/workers that trade well or with immortals that take little damage from it
Also, if it attaches to any unit other than those it trades well, and since it's production cost is pretty small, it served its purpose and weakened whatever attack it attached to. Additionally, not only did it trade well with the enemy attack, it also sapped some of the enemy player's attention or else obliterated the enemy push
Also, even if you get a colossus (upgraded)/spine crawler/thor/siege tank//broodlord/swarm host/tempest/mothership and a detector, you have to tiptoe through the minefield to be able to snipe them from out of their range, thus taking even more attention and time (for instance, if you wanted to slow an enemy push while your economic or tech advantage took effect)
Again, trading a widow mine for even 1 roach or marauder or ovie or zealot or baneling or hellion is at worst a meh trade that took some of your opponent's attention and in the middle a decent trade that met or barely exceeded the widow mine's cost while sapping that attention or at best a massive blow to the enemy force.
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On June 13 2012 01:37 terranghost wrote: Just an interesting thought but isn't a nydus worm considered a building. Vipers can only supposedly latch onto buildings. Those cannot regenerate energy in combat on the otherside of the map however if you have a worm present than you theoretically could regenerate energy while attacking the other players base.
very interesting point, also awesome quote of a sig: "A thief is slightly nobler than congress. That is a thief will take our money and be on his way. A congressman will take our money then bore us with the reason we should be happy about it." -Walter E. Williams
rofl
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slasher and DB talking
After watching the gamespot clip (above) i really think that the 22 range or something above 17 is allright as the tempest won't work if you mass them due to their low damage to cost ratio. Protoss player will build them in their early to mid game army to support their regular army and too harrass from a far or to force an engagement. In the late game a solo tempest won't be able to harass that well but might work as a catalyst for an explosive engagement. Especially if you are sniping valuable casters like a viper or a ghost.
One idea that might make the tempest more interesting is if it would make more damage closer to its target and less damage when at its max range. That way you would encourage the tempest user to talk over as a pilot (moving back and forth to maximize damage while at the same time minimizing enemy fire) rather then given order where to fire (just shift clicking units from a far)
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On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote: I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap. Yeah this is what has me worrried, it either getting nerfed to the point of almost being useless or taken out. However I think giving it something like 4 range may be a good enough nerf, as long as Marines and Stalkers out range them they shouldn't be too bad.
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On June 13 2012 02:11 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote: I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap. Yeah this is what has me worrried, it either getting nerfed to the point of almost being useless or taken out. However I think giving it something like 4 range may be a good enough nerf, as long as Marines and Stalkers out range them they shouldn't be too bad.
could also be changed that the pouncing will take 0.5 to prepare in which time a widow mine can still be destroyed with detection, would allow stalkers to snipe the widow mine with detection, but not without the risk of getting destroyed. Like the spidermine had sever patterns how you put them down, to do different things. Scattered or in a line etc. There are alot of things they can change, to make it exciting. While Range 4 would be pretty useless even against zerg as a defense. This way or the other Terran will probably get an seekermissile like mechanic that works outside of the deathball. (seeker missile with 75 energy would be enough, the 125 energy is still when the missile was fusion core and destroyed whole fleets in a single blow)
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I guess theorycrafting on the forums is fun but none of what you guys are saying has any worth whatsoever unless you tested your arguments at Anaheim or have been granted alpha access and can do testin that way. Hopefully you're discerning enough to have learned after two years of WoL that you can't know the effects of balance changes until you've tested them.
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Has the fact that protoss is going to have unlimited chrono boost to use on probes or whatever been discussed yet?
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On June 13 2012 03:38 ArchAngelSC wrote: Has the fact that protoss is going to have unlimited chrono boost to use on probes or whatever been discussed yet?
I doubt the ability will function like that. Even if it did, Blizzard will correct it quickly. They normally make abilites way to powerful and then tone them down during beta.
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I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better.
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The warhound just looks so amazing against protoss considering that basically everything but the zealot is mechanical. I am worried that stalkers are going to be completely useless vs a terran ground mech army with it having more health, deal MUCH more damage, while being almost as fast. The battle mode hellions I can imagine being manageable.
The problem is, once terran gets ghosts will immortals even counter warhounds? I'm looking for something that can deal with them but with protoss air being completely unviable against terran, I'm worried.
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On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better.
Well they didn't nerf bio, and the new units won't affect bio play. (Except maybe more storm) So it should be more or less still viable.
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Can you widow mine your own units and still have the aoe damage when the timer runs out?
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On June 13 2012 04:22 Kishin2 wrote: Can you widow mine your own units and still have the aoe damage when the timer runs out? This. Also, does the timer donut overlay visible to enemies if you widow mine your own units?
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On June 13 2012 04:11 kranten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better. Well they didn't nerf bio, and the new units won't affect bio play. (Except maybe more storm) So it should be more or less still viable.
I dont think I was questioning the viablity of bio but the fact that mech is 10x better in HOTS than bio, there is always a better reason to go mech, it is much easier to control mech, and the lategame is always favored to go mech so why would anyone go bio anymore..
Maybe in legacy of the void will the return of more bioplay comeback but it seems like mech is just so much better in all aspects.
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On June 13 2012 04:05 LucidityDark wrote: The warhound just looks so amazing against protoss considering that basically everything but the zealot is mechanical. I am worried that stalkers are going to be completely useless vs a terran ground mech army with it having more health, deal MUCH more damage, while being almost as fast. The battle mode hellions I can imagine being manageable.
The problem is, once terran gets ghosts will immortals even counter warhounds? I'm looking for something that can deal with them but with protoss air being completely unviable against terran, I'm worried. There's a lot of things Warhounds aren't very good against. Chargelots will be great against them because they have no concussive shells or stim to kite; Force Fields will be good against them too, complementing chargelots; Templars with storm will be decent against them, Range upgraded Colossi will be good if you position them correctly, Void Rays will be good, Archons will be good, Immortals might be decent, Tempests deal awful DPS but should help anyway.
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On June 13 2012 01:45 ScoSteSal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +good points and analysis.
However, as I understand the activation range is six, right? therefore the only way you can kill it without losses is with units of 7 range or more (very rare) & a detector or with rines/lings/workers that trade well or with immortals that take little damage from it
Also, if it attaches to any unit other than those it trades well, and since it's production cost is pretty small, it served its purpose and weakened whatever attack it attached to. Additionally, not only did it trade well with the enemy attack, it also sapped some of the enemy player's attention or else obliterated the enemy push
Also, even if you get a colossus (upgraded)/spine crawler/thor/siege tank//broodlord/swarm host/tempest/mothership and a detector, you have to tiptoe through the minefield to be able to snipe them from out of their range, thus taking even more attention and time (for instance, if you wanted to slow an enemy push while your economic or tech advantage took effect)
Again, trading a widow mine for even 1 roach or marauder or ovie or zealot or baneling or hellion is at worst a meh trade that took some of your opponent's attention and in the middle a decent trade that met or barely exceeded the widow mine's cost while sapping that attention or at best a massive blow to the enemy force.
According to the post below as well as others littered throughout the forums, the widow mine has a activation range of 5. Immortals, voidrays, and, most importantly, stalkers all have an attack range of 6 which makes matters complicated. How many times would you risk investing 75 minerals and 25 gas into something that might be nothing more than a creep tumor that gives sight?
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On June 13 2012 04:05 LucidityDark wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The warhound just looks so amazing against protoss considering that basically everything but the zealot is mechanical. I am worried that stalkers are going to be completely useless vs a terran ground mech army with it having more health, deal MUCH more damage, while being almost as fast. The battle mode hellions I can imagine being manageable.
The problem is, once terran gets ghosts will immortals even counter warhounds? I'm looking for something that can deal with them but with protoss air being completely unviable against terran, I'm worried.
The warhound is the new incentive to make Terran players choose mech in the match-up against Protoss. If the Warhound didn't counter a variety of Protoss units while creating another buffer zone for tanks then everyone would continue to play bio.
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On June 13 2012 04:22 Kishin2 wrote: Can you widow mine your own units and still have the aoe damage when the timer runs out?
Widow Mines don't detonate if the unit they are attached to is destroyed. The detonations are also tricky in the regards that a mine that explodes in the air will only affect air and vice versa. So... you'd have to either use a marauder or cloaked ghost in hopes of dealing with land units and I can't imagine the risk there is worth the reward.
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i think the range of the widow mine is at least 5, you can see it in the HD TVZ battle report(the first 3 widow mines)
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I love almost all of these HotS changes. With some twist, all of these new units can be very interesting units.
Protoss: Tempest: For people who say tempest sucks because its dps sucks, you need to realise that this unit isn't intended to be a dps unit. It can be used in harrassing bases (I think everyone got that part) and it can also be used in a direct engagement (or snipe them when their army walks around the map) to snipe key units. Guys, the tempest does 49 damage in one hit, meaning that 2 tempest kills an infestor in one shot, 3 kills a viper in one shot, 4 kills a broodlord in one shot (this doesn't even count upgrade). In a direct engagement, if you have 2 tempest in your army, you can snipe an infestor as they walk towards your army, then another one right when the engage starts and a guarantee infestor (or other key units) kill every 6 second. And you can always send a few tempest to follow their army around, and the opponent will keep losing important units every 6 second when the tempests are almost untouchable (22 range is huge). With some twist in cost and supply, this can be a very good and scary unit in good hands (and of course they suck if you just 1a them).
Oracle: Not much to say, they are just good, period. Some small twist on the cloak timing and the area of entomb may be needed, but overall very good unit in the hands of a good player.
Mothership Core: More like a macro mechanic than a unit. It may need some twist (like energize and may be the energy cost of its other spell). Otherwise a very good concept and a very helpful addition to protoss.
Questions: Can you build another mothership core when you upgrade your mothership core to mothership? If not, then losing energize can be huge until late late game.
Zerg: Swarm host: I will say this is currently the best unit in the expand. Zoning, seiging, free units, and force detection all in one. It can help zerg break turtling opponents in midgame or it can protect your base. It does very good dps (to both ground and air) while providing meat shield for your ranged units. It just gives zerg so many more options that I will say it "completes" the zerg race.
Question: Do the locusts benefit from missile upgrade or melee upgrade? If it benefits from missile upgrade, it seems to work very well with the new speed hydra.
Viper: Good addition to zerg, although I think it can get some twist. Abduct is main ability of the viper. Although it is obviously very good, it is not the best mechanic in the world. I understand that blizzard wants to break up deathball style of play (tempest and abduct both work very well in this regard), but depending on the exact way of how it works, it can be very frustration for both the user and the person that get pulled. I hope blizzard can change the mechanic of the spell while making sure the spell does what they want the spell to do. Blinding cloud effecting only bio makes the spell kind of limited, but it is still very useful in certain match ups. It will be the game changer for ZvZ and ZvT and does nothing to ZvP. ZvZ can be very interesting with this new spell (and other additions to the zerg race). This also helps ZvT a lot unless terran stops going marines (which I doubt, marines are just too good lol). Consume on the other hand is very creative, good job blizzard. Overall viper is a very good unit, but it probably needs some major twist.
Question: Does blinding cloud still prevent units from casting inside the cloud? If so, this spell will find some use in ZvP and we can probably see some micro war between casters in all of the vZ (viper infestor vs viper infestor seems very fun) match ups. Also what is the range of Abduct? Is it 9 or 7?
Speed hydra: Nothing to say, it is just how hydras should be……
Burrow Charge: So finally they don’t get stuck? Knockback may be a little too much, but seriously these guys deserve this.
Terran: Battle Hellion: Although they are very ugly, it does what it needs to do, meat shields and mech’s answers to zealot.
Warhound: Yet another factory unit designed to “complete” mech. The thor and warhound thing probably really troubled blizzard (much like the hydra and roach problem back in beta of WoL.) I think this unit (and the lovely thor) will go through lots of changes in beta. Hopefully they do a good job this time and this unit won’t end up like the hydra in WoL.
Widow Mine: This is a very good idea. Although some twists will be needed on the numbers (cost, supply, damage, attach range, explosion countdown time, etc) to make it work (or make it not overpower), the concept itself is very good, especially when it works on both air and ground units. If blizzard does it correctly, I can see that the widow mine will get a lot of showtime in all of the vT match ups.
Question: What is the current attachment range of the mine? Some people say 5, some people say 6.
Reaper change: It probably won’t make a huge impact on most of the match ups, but it is nice to see the reapers back.
Redline Reactor (Battle Cruiser): BC deserves something better than this……
Side note: I think a buff (or some spell changes) to raven will be great for Terran
Overall, I think blizzard is heading to the correct direction. I can’t wait for beta!
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Nuke has a tiny red dot for the person to see. Widow Mine has a giant red circle atop the unit and counts to ten. I'm not the best micro'er in the game and ten seconds is about seven seconds longer than I'd need to split units to ensure that the explosions wouldn't hit non-mined units. I honestly prefer the Shredder to this. With the long-ass wind up time, I can't see it having any place really in pro games.
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On June 13 2012 14:14 lavit2099 wrote: Nuke has a tiny red dot for the person to see. Widow Mine has a giant red circle atop the unit and counts to ten. I'm not the best micro'er in the game and ten seconds is about seven seconds longer than I'd need to split units to ensure that the explosions wouldn't hit non-mined units. I honestly prefer the Shredder to this. With the long-ass wind up time, I can't see it having any place really in pro games. so for sure the opponent sees this?
because from all the demo clips and gameplay i've seen it's never in player view, just in "everyone" view, so it's kinda hard for me to tell whether or not that countdown clock can be seen by the opponent too.
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On June 13 2012 14:14 lavit2099 wrote: Nuke has a tiny red dot for the person to see. Widow Mine has a giant red circle atop the unit and counts to ten. I'm not the best micro'er in the game and ten seconds is about seven seconds longer than I'd need to split units to ensure that the explosions wouldn't hit non-mined units. I honestly prefer the Shredder to this. With the long-ass wind up time, I can't see it having any place really in pro games. The widow mine is designed to be cost effective against most units, even if it only hits one unit.
The threat of AOE damage is mostly just to force micro from your opponent, most of the time it won't actually deal much splash damage and they are well aware of this.
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Watch the TvZ battle report. The zerg was able to easily move his affect hosts away from the group as to not cause a massive chain reaction to obliterate all of others. That's a fairly good indicator that yes, the players can see them but I wasn't there so I didn't get to see it first hand.
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This probably has been slightly mentioned, but does anyone know how battle hellion to hellion hp is going to be calculated? Is it going to be percentage based (say it has 100% hp, it'll transform to 100% hp of the other form), or will it be a direct hp conversion (i'm hoping not, because then it'll start with 60% of it's hp). If it's percentage wise, it'll be cool to see some micro to save or prolong the life of hellions lol
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Seems like it'd be a little janky if it worked that way, though I think it will. Battlebot comes back with 1hp, shift into car mode and repair it for half the cost as you would if it was still transformed. I could see something like if it takes more than 90 damage and shifts into car form it'll stop at 1hp (the idea of temp hitpoints) but again, I wasn't there to give it a try.
WTB HoTs beta pl0x :-(
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On June 13 2012 04:05 LucidityDark wrote: The warhound just looks so amazing against protoss considering that basically everything but the zealot is mechanical. I am worried that stalkers are going to be completely useless vs a terran ground mech army with it having more health, deal MUCH more damage, while being almost as fast. The battle mode hellions I can imagine being manageable.
The problem is, once terran gets ghosts will immortals even counter warhounds? I'm looking for something that can deal with them but with protoss air being completely unviable against terran, I'm worried.
You're worried so early? There isn't even a beta son! I'm pretty sure Archons are not mechanical (I think they are massive). And HTs are bio. DTs are not mechanical either. The Warhound doesn't shoot air right? So that makes guardians, Tempest and the rest of the toss air arsenal pretty good against warhounds. Vikings are good anti air, but so are Toss AoE like storm against clumped up vikings. With Tempest range of 22 you can snipe vikings all day son!
I think all units sound pretty good right now (I play terran), from all races. So I don't understand why you are worried?
And let's be honest...stalkers have ALWAYS been quite terrible in early and mid game bio terran in TvP So there, your fears are gone!
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Canada13386 Posts
Is the tempest still AoE? It didn't look like it in the battle reports and I didnt see it anywhere else in the thread. I am just curious
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Wait a minute..is it me or widow mines dont have hitpoints??
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Is the tempest still AoE? It didn't look like it in the battle reports and I didnt see it anywhere else in the thread. I am just curious No, it's a long range sniper now
Watch the TvZ battle report. The zerg was able to easily move his affect hosts away from the group as to not cause a massive chain reaction to obliterate all of others. That's a fairly good indicator that yes, the players can see them but I wasn't there so I didn't get to see it first hand. But you lose that unit 100%.
Terran losing 25 gas, you can lose a lot more resources. It's a lot more dangerous, than banelings.
Question: What is the current attachment range of the mine? Some people say 5, some people say 6.
It's 5, similar to queen range.
Question: Does blinding cloud still prevent units from casting inside the cloud? If so, this spell will find some use in ZvP and we can probably see some micro war between casters in all of the vZ (viper infestor vs viper infestor seems very fun) match ups. Also what is the range of Abduct? Is it 9 or 7? In early builds from blizzcon Blind Cloud prevented from using abilities. Also Abduct radius is same as fungal
Question: Do the locusts benefit from missile upgrade or melee upgrade? If it benefits from missile upgrade, it seems to work very well with the new speed hydra. If they have some range (like 2 or 3), why they should benefit from melee?
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What about the new Blinding Cloud? If I am wright it costs 125 energy and only effects biological units?! So it would be effective on Marines and Marauders and these can easily escape from it with Stim. So why use this ability?
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Do we know if one unit can have multiple widow mines? Can I send a Ling on to the field to collect as many as possible?
Did anyone test picking up a unit in to a transport once a mine was attached?
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On June 13 2012 17:32 Roth wrote: What about the new Blinding Cloud? If I am wright it costs 125 energy and only effects biological units?! So it would be effective on Marines and Marauders and these can easily escape from it with Stim. So why use this ability? Someone who attended Anaheim couldn't use the Ghost's snipe - Blinding Cloud prevents Ghost, HT, Infestor, Viper from using their abilities. Maybe it prevents Blink, Stim and the other stuff too.
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Can the oracle cast Preordain on your own buildings (and thus provide detection for Toss without a robo)?
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On June 13 2012 20:18 Cruncher93 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 17:32 Roth wrote: What about the new Blinding Cloud? If I am wright it costs 125 energy and only effects biological units?! So it would be effective on Marines and Marauders and these can easily escape from it with Stim. So why use this ability? Someone who attended Anaheim couldn't use the Ghost's snipe - Blinding Cloud prevents Ghost, HT, Infestor, Viper from using their abilities. Maybe it prevents Blink, Stim and the other stuff too.
if blinding cloud would prevent EVERYTHING bio (HT, ghosts, infestors) to be blinded, including spells, it would be SO awesome. zerg really needs an anti-spellcaster unit. if they do it they could buff snipe back to the past stats since zerg would have an answer to mass ghost play but 5-8 ghosts would still be attractive for T lategame.
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I tested.. the oracle gets 1 shot by the widow mine. This would effectivly make trying to use the oracle to harass terran impossible. I think a better balance would be made by making the mines a little easier to avoid, and removing the gas cost of the mine.
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Could anyone fill me in on how the Widow Mine works exactly?
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On June 14 2012 00:29 Sackings wrote: Can the oracle cast Preordain on your own buildings (and thus provide detection for Toss without a robo)?
That would be awesome, but.... the description of the ability does say "an enemy building". So I'd assume no.
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On June 09 2012 17:59 graNite wrote:Maybe the guy with the HOTS custom map should implement this, so we can play the new units before the start of the beta 
On June 09 2012 17:59 graNite wrote:Maybe the guy with the HOTS custom map should implement this, so we can play the new units before the start of the beta 
On June 09 2012 17:59 graNite wrote:Maybe the guy with the HOTS custom map should implement this, so we can play the new units before the start of the beta 
On June 09 2012 17:59 graNite wrote:Maybe the guy with the HOTS custom map should implement this, so we can play the new units before the start of the beta 
THIS! I want this sooo badly ! ;D
HotS just looks soo amazing already!
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On June 14 2012 00:55 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 00:29 Sackings wrote: Can the oracle cast Preordain on your own buildings (and thus provide detection for Toss without a robo)? That would be awesome, but.... the description of the ability does say "an enemy building". So I'd assume no. Cast it on an enemy building: You gain vision. Cast it on a friendly building: You gain detection. Stargate openers vs Terran, here they come 
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I like the Widow Mine personally, 10 seconds is a lot of time to find the unit and get him away from the rest of the deathball. I'm actually thinking what if you just shoot the unit with the mine on it, that gets rid of the mine too, right?
Hang on... Locusts have 2 range, are they affected by guardian shield? If so I'm thinking PvZ is going to reflect a lot more of Brood War gameplay but with Sentries instead of HTs.
PvP is going to be more annoying for me than it already is.
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Would've liked to see a greater variety of upgrade options for T1 and T2 units (along the lines of adrenal glands). In ZvP or ZvT, if my opponent is on 3 bases, I pretty much have to have 2 out of these 3: ultra/broodlord/infestor. Roaches/lings/hydras melt away to mech and P deathball. Banes are a joke because you throw away gas to kill light T1 mineral units. Bad exchange. Hydra speed is a start, but it still doesn't make the unit viable outside of maybe light harassment or as a hypothetical support unit in a hypothetical choke. Not to mention they are too gas heavy. Once you can afford that gas, you probably ought to be on your way to T3 instead. What a shame.
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On June 14 2012 01:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I like the Widow Mine personally, 10 seconds is a lot of time to find the unit and get him away from the rest of the deathball. I'm actually thinking what if you just shoot the unit with the mine on it, that gets rid of the mine too, right?
Hang on... Locusts have 2 range, are they affected by guardian shield? If so I'm thinking PvZ is going to reflect a lot more of Brood War gameplay but with Sentries instead of HTs.
PvP is going to be more annoying for me than it already is. Wouldn't count on it. The counter to Swarm Hosts is going to be Colossi, because they're the only reliable way we have of cleaning up things like Broodlings (and lets be honest: locusts are a variation on that theme).
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More non-cost efficient protoss units.
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On June 14 2012 01:14 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 01:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I like the Widow Mine personally, 10 seconds is a lot of time to find the unit and get him away from the rest of the deathball. I'm actually thinking what if you just shoot the unit with the mine on it, that gets rid of the mine too, right?
Hang on... Locusts have 2 range, are they affected by guardian shield? If so I'm thinking PvZ is going to reflect a lot more of Brood War gameplay but with Sentries instead of HTs.
PvP is going to be more annoying for me than it already is. Wouldn't count on it. The counter to Swarm Hosts is going to be Colossi, because they're the only reliable way we have of cleaning up things like Broodlings (and lets be honest: locusts are a variation on that theme).
Zealots could still work to some extent, they can tank that 16 damage like a champ, so you'd need vipers or something to get to the colossi. Same way they're used to tank roaches.
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On June 14 2012 01:24 SHOOG wrote: More non-cost efficient protoss units.
Protoss isn't meant to be cost efficient. It's meant to be supply efficient. And with the core it's like free spellcasters on the field. So supply efficiency w/ Oracle and Core is maintained.
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I was wondering about how people feel about the range of abduct. I believe that a spell that directly takes a unit out of a players control should be a very risky maneuver. I hate seeing colossus and tanks being thrown half way around the screen. I think the pull distance should be a bit shorter.
Also, I was explaining the whole collapsible rock tower thing to a friend and he asked if it would do damage to units who were on the ramp when the rocks were knocked down. I had no answer, but we talked about how it could work and it seems like it would be an awesome addition to include to make maps more interactive. Though the chances of anyone falling for the trap would be slim, it would still be an awesome treat for those who could pull it off.
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Tempest seems more useless than the carrier
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On June 14 2012 01:56 NadaSound wrote: I was wondering about how people feel about the range of abduct. I believe that a spell that directly takes a unit out of a players control should be a very risky maneuver. I hate seeing colossus and tanks being thrown half way around the screen. I think the pull distance should be a bit shorter.
Also, I was explaining the whole collapsible rock tower thing to a friend and he asked if it would do damage to units who were on the ramp when the rocks were knocked down. I had no answer, but we talked about how it could work and it seems like it would be an awesome addition to include to make maps more interactive. Though the chances of anyone falling for the trap would be slim, it would still be an awesome treat for those who could pull it off. personally I think if abduct is a hive upgrade spell and having viper usable at lair would be a very good change.
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On June 14 2012 02:04 Spicy_Curry wrote: Tempest seems more useless than the carrier
I like it. It's good for army harassment / expansion sniping and shooting down broodlords.
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Do widow mines do friendly splash damage
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 14 2012 03:12 blagoonga123 wrote: Do widow mines do friendly splash damage
I hope so if not then they are no longer as cool or good. I want to see protoss or zergs toss a zealot or ling on a mine then charge into terran in some way
I can only await the time that a terran puts a marine on the low ground, toss a mine onto it load it into a medivac, drop it then stim it into the mineral line of their opponent. Intense, shit.
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Haha i was juts wondering if you can use widow mines to protect your mineral lines from mutas or something like that
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On June 14 2012 03:34 blagoonga123 wrote: Haha i was juts wondering if you can use widow mines to protect your mineral lines from mutas or something like that actually this is one of the reasons why they exist
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nice reporting and note taking. its nice to see all the costs of these units, as well as the abilities for each unit explained. im really impressed with the level of depth these new units seem to be offering in terms of strategy possibilities. It doesnt feel like theyre just adding more units to have more units. the possibilities presented with the new units and changes make me very excited for HOTS.
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On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better.
Well, mothership core builds at the nexus for 60 sec. That's 3,5 probes. That's a real economic cost in my eyes.
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On June 14 2012 03:26 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 03:12 blagoonga123 wrote: Do widow mines do friendly splash damage I hope so if not then they are no longer as cool or good. I want to see protoss or zergs toss a zealot or ling on a mine then charge into terran in some way I can only await the time that a terran puts a marine on the low ground, toss a mine onto it load it into a medivac, drop it then stim it into the mineral line of their opponent. Intense, shit. They currently don't.
Also, keep in mind that killing a unit makes the mine do single target damage. No splash. So sending a ling or zealot to use a mine wouldn't work at all, especially with the 10 second detonation time.
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Swarm host looks kinda OP.
User was warned for this post
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How much hp does a widow mine have? And how long till it attacks and lands? Just wondering if it is possible to kill it when it's burrowed.
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On June 14 2012 03:05 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 02:04 Spicy_Curry wrote: Tempest seems more useless than the carrier I like it. It's good for army harassment / expansion sniping and shooting down broodlords.
Yeah, it's most likely gonna be much much better vs broodlord infestor than carriers as the curroptors won't get close without flying over the protoss army.
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On June 14 2012 04:49 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better. Well, mothership core builds at the nexus for 60 sec. That's 3,5 probes. That's a real economic cost in my eyes.
Get a build where you FE get the core asap to mass cronoboost problem mitigated or even solved (btw can you crono your mc while it´s building?)
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On June 14 2012 04:49 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better. Well, mothership core builds at the nexus for 60 sec. That's 3,5 probes. That's a real economic cost in my eyes. Its build time is 30 seconds, watch the battle report. 1 chrono and it's 20 seconds, only 3 seconds more than a probe.
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here is something that is going to blow minds. The widow mine.. does 250 damage and cost 75 minerals and 25 gas and takes 20 seconds to make.. well guess how much protoss units cost.... and how long they take to build, i sense fun will be had day 1 of beta
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On June 14 2012 06:57 Jackbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 04:49 testthewest wrote:On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better. Well, mothership core builds at the nexus for 60 sec. That's 3,5 probes. That's a real economic cost in my eyes. Its build time is 30 seconds, watch the battle report. 1 chrono and it's 20 seconds, only 3 seconds more than a probe.
That's a misleading way of looking at it.
Mothership Core = 30s , Probe = 17s Mothership Core + Chrono = 20s , Probe + Chrono = ~11.5s + Some chrono duration remaining for your next probe
It's misleading to say that Mothership Core only takes 3 seconds more than a probe.
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On June 14 2012 02:32 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 01:56 NadaSound wrote: I was wondering about how people feel about the range of abduct. I believe that a spell that directly takes a unit out of a players control should be a very risky maneuver. I hate seeing colossus and tanks being thrown half way around the screen. I think the pull distance should be a bit shorter.
Also, I was explaining the whole collapsible rock tower thing to a friend and he asked if it would do damage to units who were on the ramp when the rocks were knocked down. I had no answer, but we talked about how it could work and it seems like it would be an awesome addition to include to make maps more interactive. Though the chances of anyone falling for the trap would be slim, it would still be an awesome treat for those who could pull it off. personally I think if abduct is a hive upgrade spell and having viper usable at lair would be a very good change.
Honestly, Abduct is underpowered. My Collosus kills things at range 9. Your unit just moves them around at a much shorter range. I don't see why people are ultra-hype on this when it's weaker than Spawn Broodling was, at a higer place in the tech tree, probaly costs more, and on a worse unit (Ensare > Effects almost nothing ability). Sure, it's kinda cheap (100/200), but you still could just build Corruptors and killed the Collosus instead.
On June 14 2012 04:59 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 04:49 testthewest wrote:On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better. Well, mothership core builds at the nexus for 60 sec. That's 3,5 probes. That's a real economic cost in my eyes. Get a build where you FE get the core asap to mass cronoboost problem mitigated or even solved (btw can you crono your mc while it´s building?)
Yeah, everything costs something. But if the advantages are superior, it isn't a net cost.
Core just needs to have its upgrade staggered through some means, that's all. Either by paying for each ability through an upgrade or needing tech-tree unlocks (or both).
I'd also like to see Mass Recall left on the Mothership and maybe have Core Recall be a single unit version.
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On June 14 2012 06:57 Jackbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 04:49 testthewest wrote:On June 13 2012 03:59 Raid wrote: I like how everyone is argueing about how OP the terran units will be while it is alarming out ridiculous the Viper and Mothership core are looking. I think the reason why blizz put the mothership core there is to make pvp more interesting than allin vs allin... but seriously i don't think any race will be able to allin a toss with that thing, and it seems almost impossible to catch a protoss out of position with that recall ability. It seems SC2 is moving towards big engagement vs big engagement types of army as terran bio looks useless compared to what mech has to offer. I love mech but it scares me that it will be the only thing terran will be doing because its just so much better. Well, mothership core builds at the nexus for 60 sec. That's 3,5 probes. That's a real economic cost in my eyes. Its build time is 30 seconds, watch the battle report. 1 chrono and it's 20 seconds, only 3 seconds more than a probe.
I wouldn't quibble on numbers, just core ideas. They aren't going to have the build time right even when it's time for release.
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I would really like to see the widow mine become a factory upgrade for the reaper and have speed back for reapers as well. It would give the reapers a lot more use and with their low health they would be vulnerable and have to be constantly micro'd. It of course would hold a similar role to the vulture which I think Terran needs and it's obvious blizzard thinks this too by placing he widow mine in the game. But by adding the mine to the reaper it will utilize two units and I feel you would see reapers a lot more.
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On June 14 2012 07:12 mcmartini wrote: I would really like to see the widow mine become a factory upgrade for the reaper and have speed back for reapers as well. It would give the reapers a lot more use and with their low health they would be vulnerable and have to be constantly micro'd. It of course would hold a similar role to the vulture which I think Terran needs and it's obvious blizzard thinks this too by placing he widow mine in the game. But by adding the mine to the reaper it will utilize two units and I feel you would see reapers a lot more. Widow mines on cliffhopping units would be hilariously broken.
I'd prefer the vulture to come back but that's not going to happen. Perhaps a health nerf to hellions but you can research a mine upgrade for them at a factory tech lab?
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On June 14 2012 07:12 mcmartini wrote: I would really like to see the widow mine become a factory upgrade for the reaper and have speed back for reapers as well. It would give the reapers a lot more use and with their low health they would be vulnerable and have to be constantly micro'd. It of course would hold a similar role to the vulture which I think Terran needs and it's obvious blizzard thinks this too by placing he widow mine in the game. But by adding the mine to the reaper it will utilize two units and I feel you would see reapers a lot more.
The Reaper cliff jumps so wouldn't it be so much easier to abuse Widow Mines? You can sneak the Mines in so many places even without Medivacs.
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On June 14 2012 07:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 07:12 mcmartini wrote: I would really like to see the widow mine become a factory upgrade for the reaper and have speed back for reapers as well. It would give the reapers a lot more use and with their low health they would be vulnerable and have to be constantly micro'd. It of course would hold a similar role to the vulture which I think Terran needs and it's obvious blizzard thinks this too by placing he widow mine in the game. But by adding the mine to the reaper it will utilize two units and I feel you would see reapers a lot more. The Reaper cliff jumps so wouldn't it be so much easier to abuse Widow Mines? You can sneak the Mines in so many places even without Medivacs. True but as you said with Medivacs it would still be a pain. Can window lines currently be loaded into Medivacs? I just crept the reaper with its health regen won't be used but utilized with the reaper it would be. Obviously 1 mine per reaper and as a factory upgrade I think it would be possible to be denied as I said low health on reapers and with stalkers + range 5. Queens denying them would be very possible. Plus as its a factory upgrade you wouldn't really be getting speed + mine at the same time. Just have it as a significantly time upgrade. Up there between siege and stim time wise.
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On June 14 2012 07:12 mcmartini wrote: I would really like to see the widow mine become a factory upgrade for the reaper and have speed back for reapers as well. It would give the reapers a lot more use and with their low health they would be vulnerable and have to be constantly micro'd. It of course would hold a similar role to the vulture which I think Terran needs and it's obvious blizzard thinks this too by placing he widow mine in the game. But by adding the mine to the reaper it will utilize two units and I feel you would see reapers a lot more.
I would rather see two things if they the unit concept doesn't work out in beta.
First is giving this as an upgrade to hellions. Each hellion will either have 1~2 widow mines to plant that will do less damage (100?) and possibly lower detonation time in return for friendly splash. It will be like the upgraded vulture/spider mine combo. Also gives the option of going blue flame OR mines, giving Ts a tactical decision.
OR give this in replacement of the HSM for the raven. Now what this is that the raven will launch a widow mine to a target instead of the HSM. The mine cannot be outrun but delayed by running the target unit away (so the speed of the mine will accelerate exponentially til it latches on).Once it latches on the widow mine will start the counter then detonate. Should do friendly splash.
On a sidenote, I also think they should get rid of HSM in HOTS for something along the lines of irritate but only affecting mech units. Like something that latches onto the mech unit and deals dps to it and surrounding mech units.
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On June 13 2012 14:14 lavit2099 wrote: Nuke has a tiny red dot for the person to see. Widow Mine has a giant red circle atop the unit and counts to ten. I'm not the best micro'er in the game and ten seconds is about seven seconds longer than I'd need to split units to ensure that the explosions wouldn't hit non-mined units. I honestly prefer the Shredder to this. With the long-ass wind up time, I can't see it having any place really in pro games.
If the mine kills anything outside of a zealot/marine/zergling--then it has payed for itself.
At 75m 25g (double produced from a reactored Factory) it has automatically made a reactor hellion opening the counter to roach/bane bust.
It costs as much as a baneling. Repeat that with me, it costs as much as a baneling. The baneling will be better and killing large numbers of units (rines and zerglings for example) but when you simply want the fucker to die--widow mine has that in spades.
Sure it is easy to spot the big red dot, split your units properly, and hope that it didn't actually smack your units while in range of tank fire, or that you didn't get hit by them while engaging marauders who would slaughter your troops once they stop hitting back for the next 3-4 seconds (which is around 2-3 rounds of marauder attacks)
Its not spider mine, it won't stop people from blindly sending units at your flank, it won't prevent them from base racing you, etc...
But when they're used for their purpose, they will own.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Well, in WoL terrans needed to split marines, now... zerg must split all their units vs widow mines
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On June 14 2012 10:50 Existor wrote:Well, in WoL terrans needed to split marines, now... zerg must split all their units vs widow mines 
no just kill the unit
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DRG commented that the mines in the current build are really strong.
Flash says they are really powerful.
To those saying that the current widow mines are useless, you may want to rethink your position.
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On June 14 2012 11:00 SarcasmMonster wrote:DRG commented that the mines in the current build are really strong. Flash says they are really powerful. To those saying that the current widow mines are useless, you may want to rethink your position.
No, NEVER! We at TL never rethink our position on units we have never used. That is something that cannot happen!
P.S. Spider mines look beyond awesome. I think they might mix well with current bio, since they already do 200 damage. I can see a creative terran kiting over them to force the protoss removed the "mined" zealots. Since they don't do friendly fire, there is no reason not to.
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Taking a step back I am pretty impressed by the unit addition concepts for HotS. One adjustment I see that could be done is for the Tempest. As it stands, un-upgraded with 10 range, 45 dmg/60 dmg massive, 6 attack speed , (7.5 dps/10 dps massive) is extremely weak for a 300/300 unit, weaker then a single stalker for the most part though with a good hard upfront hit.
A key change could be to knock its base attack speed to 3, effective doubling its dps at 10 range. This would NOT fully apply to the range upgrade(Gravity Sling). Instead for the Gravity Sling the delay after firing would change on distance. At 22 range, attack speed or cool down after shot is 6. At 10 range the cool down is 3, and it would be linear depending on distance between 10 and 22, i.e. the point at which the shot is fired and the target unit is at distance of 16, the cool down til next shot would be 4.5. This change would make sure the tempest is not cripplingly weak when first built and yet not to strong in long range abuse due to higher dps.
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that's actually a really interesting fix. but i'm still of the opinion that they should tweak the carrier instead, give it longer range or something, anything, they haven't even touched it and it has far and away a more interesting game mechanic than the tempest. they should use the tempest model for a totally different type of unit, maybe even save it for LotV. but i guess the odds of it happening at this point are fairly small. someone needs to get together a really good explanation for why the carrier should stay in, including an explanation of why the tempest circa MLG anaheim doesn't seem to have much of a purpose either - so if you're gonna tweak one, why not the fan favorite with the more interesting game mechanic instead of the lazy burst dps with the pretty new model? and then get a bunch of signatures to send with it. seriously. i'm half-convinced they're pushing for the tempest simply because they couldn't think of any more new unit ideas for toss after the oracle.
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So far the best/most fun unit for terran still seems to be the spider mine. Even then, considering the 10 second delay, it's definitely not as good as other races' units. And it costs gas. It's a very very nerfed version of the spider mines. I wish we could at least attach it to friendly units or something, to create a sacrificial terran baneling ...if not...boring unit that will be useless against pros. Kinda like the current carrier. In fact the only highlight of the spider mine 2.0 is that it's not AS bad as raven's HSM.
Warhound is...good, although I'm not impressed by the lack of anti-air. It also makes ZERO sense that it costs less supply than the tank, despite having 60 more hit points and being much more powerful and mobile. Bascially its DPS is higher than the tank, it costs less supply, almost TWICE as little gas. If you can fit 4 of them in a medivac, that will be utterly retarded. I'm actually very surprised by the stats on this thing and wouldnt be surprised if P/Z whine nerf it into oblivion.
The fact that they are still keeping marine or/and thor as the main-anti air is very disappointing.
However, the units that take the retard cake are the Viper and the Oracle.
Oracle's abilities are simply WAY too good for what they do, and since the only tech building it requires is a stargate, you could gain a huge advantage on large maps by proxying and entombing someone's mineral line, at 6:30 into the game. Or you could have a 60 second cloak for your 6 gate attack slightly later. Equally as retarded. Only consolation, again, is that it's made of paper like the old warp prism. So it's likely to get whine buffed later into HotS.
Viper I don't even want to talk about, lest I incur the wrath of forum zergs (but I'll have to anyway). The unit is simply broken. It essentially has a darkswarm ability (and before you pedants tell me it's not the same, well, functionally yes, it is the same. It forces the other race to move out of the cloud), and a "pull this unit" into certain death instantly ability together. It's flying. And it has infinite energy from cheap-ass buildings like evo chambers. What you basically get is a unit with ~110 energy after 50 seconds. So now Zerg will not only have the best positioning ability. They will also have an ability better than force field to NEGATE the enemy position.
It's ONLY downside is that bad players will need to be able to micro its Consume ability. That being said, I fully expect the viper to be buffed in some way, probably making it faster or something, because it "can't keep up with zerglings on creep" or something.
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Can a battle hellion take on a zealot one on one -__-
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Really wish people would stop saying the Widow mines are useless.
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On June 14 2012 14:00 HeroMystic wrote: Really wish people would stop saying the Widow mines are useless. I think the misconception comes from the splash damage being so easy to avoid, but they tend to not realize that the unit is cost effective even without it.
They also have 5 range which makes them all the harder to avoid.
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widow mine is sick idea.. probably needS some tweaking. Warhound has to be the worst designed unit yet. Looking at how cheap and stupid it is im afraid its gonna break the game and terrans are just gonna be massing a move warhounds every game. Why not buff the tank?
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On June 14 2012 14:14 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 14:00 HeroMystic wrote: Really wish people would stop saying the Widow mines are useless. I think the misconception comes from the splash damage being so easy to avoid, but they tend to not realize that the unit is cost effective even without it. They also have 5 range which makes them all the harder to avoid.
Plus they think it will be easy to micro the latched units out.. for one unit yes sure, but when 9~12 are latched by the mine in different positions in your deathball + the T army attacks, its going to be VERY difficult to mitigate the splash damage.
As for avoiding them, its always been easy to avoid spider mines too as long as their is detection/range units or some sort of cheap mine clearing unit (Zealot/marine/ling).
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Wish they made tank 2 supply
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Widow mines are going to suck against Brood Lords and Swarm Hosts. A single brood lord will destroy 2 widow mines with every shoot - one with damage, the other because the broodling will activate it. A small pack of Swarm hosts could decimate a whole line of mines with their expendable locusts.
Protoss could use Hallucinations. If the mines cause damage to allies, Terrans could use marines.
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Looking at the battle report, you can quite clearly see that while borrowed, the mines have the "attack" button. This means you can pick and choose what unit you want it to attach to, or, leave them on auto attack. This means you can "hide" them when a pack of zergling run over and only attack a more valuble unit, if you have the APM and awareness to do so.
For those who played, is this accurate?
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On June 14 2012 13:47 Sadistx wrote: So far the best/most fun unit for terran still seems to be the spider mine. Even then, considering the 10 second delay, it's definitely not as good as other races' units. And it costs gas. It's a very very nerfed version of the spider mines. I wish we could at least attach it to friendly units or something, to create a sacrificial terran baneling ...if not...boring unit that will be useless against pros. Kinda like the current carrier. In fact the only highlight of the spider mine 2.0 is that it's not AS bad as raven's HSM.
Warhound is...good, although I'm not impressed by the lack of anti-air. It also makes ZERO sense that it costs less supply than the tank, despite having 60 more hit points and being much more powerful and mobile. Bascially its DPS is higher than the tank, it costs less supply, almost TWICE as little gas. If you can fit 4 of them in a medivac, that will be utterly retarded. I'm actually very surprised by the stats on this thing and wouldnt be surprised if P/Z whine nerf it into oblivion.
The fact that they are still keeping marine or/and thor as the main-anti air is very disappointing.
However, the units that take the retard cake are the Viper and the Oracle.
Oracle's abilities are simply WAY too good for what they do, and since the only tech building it requires is a stargate, you could gain a huge advantage on large maps by proxying and entombing someone's mineral line, at 6:30 into the game. Or you could have a 60 second cloak for your 6 gate attack slightly later. Equally as retarded. Only consolation, again, is that it's made of paper like the old warp prism. So it's likely to get whine buffed later into HotS.
Viper I don't even want to talk about, lest I incur the wrath of forum zergs (but I'll have to anyway). The unit is simply broken. It essentially has a darkswarm ability (and before you pedants tell me it's not the same, well, functionally yes, it is the same. It forces the other race to move out of the cloud), and a "pull this unit" into certain death instantly ability together. It's flying. And it has infinite energy from cheap-ass buildings like evo chambers. What you basically get is a unit with ~110 energy after 50 seconds. So now Zerg will not only have the best positioning ability. They will also have an ability better than force field to NEGATE the enemy position.
It's ONLY downside is that bad players will need to be able to micro its Consume ability. That being said, I fully expect the viper to be buffed in some way, probably making it faster or something, because it "can't keep up with zerglings on creep" or something.
lol this about sums up all of my thoughts.
add to that the fact that the warhound just...doesn't seem like it fits right with the way starcraft was designed. it feels way to command and conquery (along w/ the tempest, which just seems beyond lol retarded).
the fact that mines have to be burrowed before they can jump on shit makes them kinda shitty, because anybody with half a brain will obv just send a handful of lings w/ an overseer at hatch tech.
also the huge timer thing on the unit seems retardedly obnoxious and will get super frustrating for both players in large numbers.
also wtf at locust swarm and brood lings both not costing supply lol? like that end game w/ vipers is going to be absolutley unbeatable. period. and if you hypothetically managed to get a few lucky mines (which should NEVER happen w/ broodlord range), or a lucky archon toilet, you can pretty much be guaranteed to have a darkswarm on your head thanks to the unlimited energy (building regen + energy drain on buildings = lol). they need to make consume what it was in broodwar, so that at least zergs will be forced to use SOME of their larva to make lings or smth.
idk man, unless flash has some insane shit prepared, zergs should never lose to terran with the way hots is currently set up.
zvp looks just as bad, except the oracle seems like it can be potentially useful for 2base timings and preventing six hundred drones from being made in 10 mins. the tempest absolutley needs to go tho, just a totally retarded unit thats like a mockup of a v2 rocket or smth from C&C that has no place in SC.
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On June 14 2012 14:34 nerak wrote: Widow mines are going to suck against Brood Lords and Swarm Hosts. A single brood lord will destroy 2 widow mines with every shoot - one with damage, the other because the broodling will activate it. A small pack of Swarm hosts could decimate a whole line of mines with their expendable locusts.
Protoss could use Hallucinations. If the mines cause damage to allies, Terrans could use marines.
I can't check but someone in this thread or the other HOTS thread said that the widow mine doesn't get activated by "free" units (Broodlings, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations etc.)
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Hold position mines could get really ugly especially against foes that cheap out on detection for suiciding low cost units as mine clearance..
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On June 14 2012 15:13 YyapSsap wrote: Hold position mines could get really ugly especially against foes that cheap out on detection for suiciding low cost units as mine clearance.. Hold position banelings detonate also, the widow mine will too I think.
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I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas.
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On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy?
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On June 14 2012 15:22 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy? In the build that was shown at MLG thors didn't have strike cannons any more. Which is good because that ability is just completely awful design.
So unless they get a new ability in place of strike cannons, thors won't have energy bars in HOTS.
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everybody crying about abduct being imba. its hive tech and has range 7. ghosts and HT RAPE them with range 9/10 feedback/EMP/snipe. it will require more micro on both sides which is nice. if blinding cloud is for spellcaster it will be even better since zerg would have finally a unit to counter other spellcasters.
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On June 14 2012 15:58 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 15:22 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy? In the build that was shown at MLG thors didn't have strike cannons any more. Which is good because that ability is just completely awful design. So unless they get a new ability in place of strike cannons, thors won't have energy bars in HOTS.
Did you play at MLG? everyone else that has says thors remain the same with energy..
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On June 14 2012 17:50 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 15:58 Bagi wrote:On June 14 2012 15:22 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy? In the build that was shown at MLG thors didn't have strike cannons any more. Which is good because that ability is just completely awful design. So unless they get a new ability in place of strike cannons, thors won't have energy bars in HOTS. Did you play at MLG? everyone else that has says thors remain the same with energy..
I just checked the TvZ Battle Report and he's right! They mouse over the Thor several times and no energy bar.
This is actually a pretty big deal in TvP.
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On June 14 2012 17:50 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 15:58 Bagi wrote:On June 14 2012 15:22 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy? In the build that was shown at MLG thors didn't have strike cannons any more. Which is good because that ability is just completely awful design. So unless they get a new ability in place of strike cannons, thors won't have energy bars in HOTS. Did you play at MLG? everyone else that has says thors remain the same with energy.. Nope I wasn't at MLG but there were people saying that strike cannons were no longer in the game.
Now I'm not sure any more though.
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On June 14 2012 17:53 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 17:50 DaveVAH wrote:On June 14 2012 15:58 Bagi wrote:On June 14 2012 15:22 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy? In the build that was shown at MLG thors didn't have strike cannons any more. Which is good because that ability is just completely awful design. So unless they get a new ability in place of strike cannons, thors won't have energy bars in HOTS. Did you play at MLG? everyone else that has says thors remain the same with energy.. I just checked the TvZ Battle Report and he's right! They mouse over the Thor several times and no energy bar. This is actually a pretty big deal in TvP.
Ye I saw that too but several people attending the event said it they were sure to check & it still had energy. so I am thinking the battle report might be out of date build...
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Has anyone noticed the Warhound's haywire ability? It looks like it should add some potentially interesting micro to a unit that I thought was just going to be very A-movy. In small/medium sized engagements you can use it to quickly pick off enemy units with low health to minimize overkill damage, or use multiple haywires on one target to focus it down quickly.
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with that missile it's possible to kite enemy units, because the missile have 9 range
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On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that.
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On June 14 2012 15:18 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 15:13 YyapSsap wrote: Hold position mines could get really ugly especially against foes that cheap out on detection for suiciding low cost units as mine clearance.. Hold position banelings detonate also, the widow mine will too I think.
burrowed banelings would be the correct comparison...
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On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger
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On June 14 2012 21:18 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 15:18 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:13 YyapSsap wrote: Hold position mines could get really ugly especially against foes that cheap out on detection for suiciding low cost units as mine clearance.. Hold position banelings detonate also, the widow mine will too I think. burrowed banelings would be the correct comparison...
But hold position doesnt affect their behaviour so that's nonsense? So terrans will have to apply spider mines? Would suck if u need apm/map awareness for it. Its wierd because everyone said they are like spider mines.
I just found that:
After burrowing and a brief arming time the mine will launch up and latch itself to a unit.
I guess that proofs that they autodetonate and will behave like unburrowed banelings. They will be terribly annoying cuz terrans will deny loads of expansions with them.
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On June 14 2012 21:27 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 21:18 Quotidian wrote:On June 14 2012 15:18 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:13 YyapSsap wrote: Hold position mines could get really ugly especially against foes that cheap !@#$%^&* on detection for suiciding low cost units as mine clearance.. Hold position banelings detonate also, the widow mine will too I think. burrowed banelings would be the correct comparison... But hold position doesnt affect their behaviour so that's nonsense? So terrans will have to apply spider mines? Would suck if u need apm/map awareness for it. Its wierd because everyone said they are like spider mines. I just found that: Show nested quote +After burrowing and a brief arming time the mine will launch up and latch itself to a unit. I guess that proofs that they autodetonate and will behave like unburrowed banelings.
From what I have gathered (TvZ battle report and discussions on forums), the Widow Mines have an auto-attack (it shows the animitation of auto-cast over the attack command once burried) and attach itself to the nearest target once they are burrowed. But I guess it can be switched off (like you can switch of the auto-charge of Zealots) by right clicking on it and choose targets individually, this adds some micro to the Terran side while the other player has to micro to minimize splash damage.
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just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :>
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On June 14 2012 21:27 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 21:18 Quotidian wrote:On June 14 2012 15:18 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:13 YyapSsap wrote: Hold position mines could get really ugly especially against foes that cheap out on detection for suiciding low cost units as mine clearance.. Hold position banelings detonate also, the widow mine will too I think. burrowed banelings would be the correct comparison... But hold position doesnt affect their behaviour so that's nonsense? So terrans will have to apply spider mines? Would suck if u need apm/map awareness for it. Its wierd because everyone said they are like spider mines. I just found that: Show nested quote +After burrowing and a brief arming time the mine will launch up and latch itself to a unit. I guess that proofs that they autodetonate and will behave like unburrowed banelings. They will be terribly annoying cuz terrans will deny loads of expansions with them.
it makes sense to realize that 1) unborrowed mines and unborrowed banelings don't behave the same, so any comparison between the two is "nonsense." 2) it makes more sense to compare burrowed mines to burrowed banelings, because the utility is more similar, but 3) they're still functionally completely different units with very different control and damage mechanisms, so comparing them is ultimately futile. But banelings can set unburrow to autocast, so it's reasonable to think you can do something like that for mines as well. And of course 4) HOTS isn't even in beta yet. Just because there might not have been hold position at MLG, doesn't mean there won't be in the beta.
In all the interviews with Kim or Browder where they have discussed the unit, I get the sense that you can actually direct the attack of the mine, so it might not be as random as it would be if it would always latch on to the first unit in range - but I get the feeling that they also attack automatically on opportunity. Avilo mentioned in his blog how he was using mines to stop Oracle harass, and I doubt he was doing every attack action manually. Hopefully there will be an active auto attack function on the mines, that can be disabled, because it adds a lot of strategic possibilities.
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On June 14 2012 17:59 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 17:53 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 14 2012 17:50 DaveVAH wrote:On June 14 2012 15:58 Bagi wrote:On June 14 2012 15:22 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy? In the build that was shown at MLG thors didn't have strike cannons any more. Which is good because that ability is just completely awful design. So unless they get a new ability in place of strike cannons, thors won't have energy bars in HOTS. Did you play at MLG? everyone else that has says thors remain the same with energy.. I just checked the TvZ Battle Report and he's right! They mouse over the Thor several times and no energy bar. This is actually a pretty big deal in TvP. Ye I saw that too but several people attending the event said it they were sure to check & it still had energy. so I am thinking the battle report might be out of date build...
Or maybe the MLG build is out of date. It could be either, really. At the very least, it's evidence that Blizzard has been playing with an energy-less Thor.
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On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger
This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors.
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On June 15 2012 02:17 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 17:59 DaveVAH wrote:On June 14 2012 17:53 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 14 2012 17:50 DaveVAH wrote:On June 14 2012 15:58 Bagi wrote:On June 14 2012 15:22 D4V3Z02 wrote:On June 14 2012 15:19 slytown wrote: I'm glad they kept thors in. They're very necessary against mutas. Will thors still have energy? In the build that was shown at MLG thors didn't have strike cannons any more. Which is good because that ability is just completely awful design. So unless they get a new ability in place of strike cannons, thors won't have energy bars in HOTS. Did you play at MLG? everyone else that has says thors remain the same with energy.. I just checked the TvZ Battle Report and he's right! They mouse over the Thor several times and no energy bar. This is actually a pretty big deal in TvP. Ye I saw that too but several people attending the event said it they were sure to check & it still had energy. so I am thinking the battle report might be out of date build... Or maybe the MLG build is out of date. It could be either, really. At the very least, it's evidence that Blizzard has been playing with an energy-less Thor. What we really need are weaker, mobile, smaller Thors that are 2 supply. Reduce the range and splash as well. We can rename it Loki. 
I think Blizzard really are forcing the Thor issue because of the Collectors Edition Skin. If not, I think blizz would have nuked the Thor concept alot more in HOTS.
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Russian Federation899 Posts
On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors.
This should be printed on A1 list in 300 font size and pinned in front of DBs desktop.
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On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors.
i agree with this, also roach to 1,obviously you need to rebalanced some things, but is doable
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On June 15 2012 06:01 razy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors. This should be printed on A1 list in 300 font size and pinned in front of DBs desktop.
Bigger armies = striking out players with less equipped computers
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On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors. Do we really want to buff colossi?
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On June 15 2012 06:01 razy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors. This should be printed on A1 list in 300 font size and pinned in front of DBs desktop. I don't understand, people want Fewer Resources per Base to put an emphasis on micro and whatnot, and also bigger armies (so bigger deathballs...)? Are you the same people or is the community divided on this?
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The warhound stats scare teh shit out of me
Minerals: 150 Gas: 75 Supply: 2 Build Time: 45 Health: 220 Base Armor: 1 Speed: 2.81 Attack Damage: 23 Attack Range: 7 Attack Delay: 1.3
That's what, 17dps? with an addtional 5dps on the autocast. It outranges stalkers, has more hp, 3 times the dps, is 0.1 slower, can be repaired and costs 25/25 more. What the hell? These things are monsterous! It's like looking at marauders on steroids. Throw a screen of battle hellions in front and tell me how a gateway army is meant to deal with this?
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On June 15 2012 15:17 Kharnage wrote: The warhound stats scare teh shit out of me
Minerals: 150 Gas: 75 Supply: 2 Build Time: 45 Health: 220 Base Armor: 1 Speed: 2.81 Attack Damage: 23 Attack Range: 7 Attack Delay: 1.3
That's what, 17dps? with an addtional 5dps on the autocast. It outranges stalkers, has more hp, 3 times the dps, is 0.1 slower, can be repaired and costs 25/25 more. What the hell? These things are monsterous! It's like looking at marauders on steroids. Throw a screen of battle hellions in front and tell me how a gateway army is meant to deal with this?
They said in an interview that the stats arent balanced yet and the most balance will be done in beta, I think those stats are placeholder. And ofcourse units with more dmg are more hyped when customers play beta at mlg .
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On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :>
It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back
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i really like the changes and new units that are being given to Zerg, but i am really sad that they aren't doing 2 things. First and probably foremost (because they won't do the second thing I guess) is I would love to see a reduction in Ultra size, Literally cut the unit size in half, In bw it was not even close to the size it is in WoL and it was cheaper/4 supply as well but I would like to see the unit size reduced.
The second thing that I would like to see (as well as every other Z in the world) is a return of the Lurker. If you insist on keeping the Swarm host, maybe move it to hive and change it appropriately but the Lurker was just such a good unit at zoning and most Z's favorite unit.
Add things to the T/P side to make up for the Ultra and Lurker, do w/e you want but these are the changes I have been waiting for since WoL Beta (as well as most other Z's)
Edit: Also the science vessel was freaking amazing and the raven doesn't come close to matching it. I might start a petition to replace the raven w/ the sci vessel.
Edit: I guess while I am voicing my opinion I should mention the other changes I would enjoy seeing
T: Remove Thor, Add Goliath Reduce tank cost to 2f 150/100 and buff it's attack vs armored or maybe mechanical Add Science vessel improve BC
P: Add a robo unit that can jump like the reaper and is cheap, harass unit remove colossi, add something else increase the power of the Stalker decrease build time on gateway and make wg a later upgrade replace sentrys hallucination upgrade with a damaging spell, maybe an aoe
Z: I main Z so I have thought about this a little more
Hydra: pool tech, 1f, 2.25, speed up on lair, same atk speed, 7dmg 70 health remove the baneling add lurker, lair tech, morph from hydra Roach: move roach to lair tech, increase to 3f, lower damage, does + damage to light units, 2 armor base, passive health regen. something like 12 atk + 12 to light remove speed upgrade and burrow move, make upgrade have activated health regen. Move the swarm host to hive and change accordingly.
I would like to advocate for smaller unit groups as well. I don't know how many people are actually interested in this though.
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On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back 
The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax?
Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines.
The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point.
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On June 15 2012 14:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 06:01 razy wrote:On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors. This should be printed on A1 list in 300 font size and pinned in front of DBs desktop. I don't understand, people want Fewer Resources per Base to put an emphasis on micro and whatnot, and also bigger armies (so bigger deathballs...)? Are you the same people or is the community divided on this? No, we want larger armies because bigger units are less supply, but they will be more spread out with better unit spacing so the deathball syndrome will be less plausible.
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On June 15 2012 06:01 razy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors. This should be printed on A1 list in 300 font size and pinned in front of DBs desktop. Here here! Let's lose the affinity for large supply units, make most things 1 or 2 again. Zerg needs another swarm unit that could be 1 supply, the roach and the hydra are good candidates.
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On June 15 2012 16:15 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 14:55 ZenithM wrote:On June 15 2012 06:01 razy wrote:On June 15 2012 05:53 GinDo wrote:On June 14 2012 21:23 Garmer wrote:On June 14 2012 21:16 maartendq wrote:On June 14 2012 14:26 YyapSsap wrote:Wish they made tank 2 supply  Considering how weak they are, they might as well do that. they should lower some other ground units as well, like colossi, thor and ultra to 4, to make the scale bigger This has been annoying me since beta, the fact that armies are so small. Part of it is the AI that blobs everything, but a big factor is how supply heavy everything is these days. I would like to see a reduction in supply to units like: Hydra, Immortal, and Tank. In addition to Collosi, Ultras, and Thors. This should be printed on A1 list in 300 font size and pinned in front of DBs desktop. I don't understand, people want Fewer Resources per Base to put an emphasis on micro and whatnot, and also bigger armies (so bigger deathballs...)? Are you the same people or is the community divided on this? No, we want larger armies because bigger units are less supply, but they will be more spread out with better unit spacing so the deathball syndrome will be less plausible.
The deathball syndrome is not due to unit spacing though. It's due to the ease of use of the units in the deathball.
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On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point.
Why would you use a gas heavy unit from a factory to cover the best AA unit in the game >.>
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On June 15 2012 16:24 Evangelist wrote:
The deathball syndrome is not due to unit spacing though. It's due to the ease of use of the units in the deathball. If your units were spread across more than one screen, and their spacing were more reasonable, it would be much harder to bunch them up into the official 'sc2 choke size' that basically constitutes the fundamental lego for all sc2 maps, with a few exceptions of the more open ones.
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These new units just feel so... Ugh, compared to some of the sc1 units that have been cut. Frankly I don't care about balance, I care about theme and cool factor. Swarm host is pretty good, so is the viper (although stupid name) and it's nice that Terran is getting a mine back... Much better idea than the Shredder. People like big explosions and shrapnel, invisible waves of radiation not so much.
The warhound is exactly the same as a marauder. The toss air units are laughable. Carriers were sleek, intimidating manifestations of Protoss fury, raining death upon hapless civilizations. Anyone ever see the music video "through the fire and the flames"? It had carriers in it. This is an iconic unit. Now they want you to have a flying photon cannon (tempest) and unit that is specifically designed not to kill things, but to be annoying (oracle).
I just really wonder what happened to the creative team that brought us those sleek, lethal, explosive, intimidating killing machines that made bw such a thrill to watch. The units seem to have little personality now. The toss ones especially just look like flying buildings. The warhound is butt ugly.
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Carriers were never sleek or intimidating in game, though. They were massive slow-moving units that could NOT be micro'd (take away the scoot/shoot of the Phoenix and give it to the Carrier, then we'd be intimidated). As is, the most expensive unit for the Protoss army could be taken out by a handful of Marines and Stim, or a pack of blink Stalkers. They really only worked against Zerg, in theory, but by the time you can get them out we're knocking on your door with our third 200/200 ling/roach/infestor/ultra army. If anything, the 22 (omfg!) range AA/AG siege flying unit scares me more than anything the Carrier currently is in SC2.
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They should just make four interceptors orbit around the tempest...just for the sake of the name. It's more like a thunderbolt than a tempest now lol.
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did he really just say that the locusts can hit air?
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On June 15 2012 16:25 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point. Why would you use a gas heavy unit from a factory to cover the best AA unit in the game >.> The main weakness of said "best AA unit" is its range. Thors, like vikings with void rays, keep the mutalisks from dancing around just outside of the marine's range. Now, debates on whether or not this is good/skillful game design (as mutalisk harass can now be easily shut down without huge micro on the Terran's part) are still relevant, but it's definitely a good strategy given the game as it is.
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Russian Federation899 Posts
On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point.
what the heck does barracks unit has to do with factory unit?
Factory units should reinforce mech play, not act as a mere addition to bio style.
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Due to a variety of things I was unable to update this as planned. Tonight I will be going ahead and getting the info I have up there. Sorry about the delay!
lol op you haven't updated your blog yet.
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On June 15 2012 17:17 madskillz2288 wrote: did he really just say that the locusts can hit air? Apparently they spit projectiles, think Hydralisks lol.
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On June 15 2012 17:18 YoureFired wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 16:25 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point. Why would you use a gas heavy unit from a factory to cover the best AA unit in the game >.> The main weakness of said "best AA unit" is its range. Thors, like vikings with void rays, keep the mutalisks from dancing around just outside of the marine's range. Now, debates on whether or not this is good/skillful game design (as mutalisk harass can now be easily shut down without huge micro on the Terran's part) are still relevant, but it's definitely a good strategy given the game as it is.
Yeah, it is good strategy on the players part, but I would focus on the design aspect of it, I think goliaths are a much better design and do a very similar thing but give TvP a lot more life.
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On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point. Um, the Marine/Goliath comparison is wrong.
Marine is a general purpose unit with extremely high DPS and is massable. However they're extremely fragile and micro intensive. Goliaths are general Anti-Air units that act as support for other Mech units. The Goliath's role was taken by the Viking, not the Marine.
That said, going Mech means you're not using Marines, and you actually can't just suddenly add Marines to be Anti-Air because they'll be non-upgraded.
A lot of people don't seem to understand that Bio and Mech are two completely different compositions that need completely different upgrades and completely different build orders. That's why the Factory needs a good Anti-Air unit and the Goliath has already shown to do just that.
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On June 15 2012 18:06 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 17:18 YoureFired wrote:On June 15 2012 16:25 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point. Why would you use a gas heavy unit from a factory to cover the best AA unit in the game >.> The main weakness of said "best AA unit" is its range. Thors, like vikings with void rays, keep the mutalisks from dancing around just outside of the marine's range. Now, debates on whether or not this is good/skillful game design (as mutalisk harass can now be easily shut down without huge micro on the Terran's part) are still relevant, but it's definitely a good strategy given the game as it is. Yeah, it is good strategy on the players part, but I would focus on the design aspect of it, I think goliaths are a much better design and do a very similar thing but give TvP a lot more life.
If Blizz adds BW Goliath in HOTS, it will be underused in TvP.
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I guess they figured out that they have to implement some BW stuff in order to make the game good ^^
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On June 15 2012 21:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 18:06 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 15 2012 17:18 YoureFired wrote:On June 15 2012 16:25 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point. Why would you use a gas heavy unit from a factory to cover the best AA unit in the game >.> The main weakness of said "best AA unit" is its range. Thors, like vikings with void rays, keep the mutalisks from dancing around just outside of the marine's range. Now, debates on whether or not this is good/skillful game design (as mutalisk harass can now be easily shut down without huge micro on the Terran's part) are still relevant, but it's definitely a good strategy given the game as it is. Yeah, it is good strategy on the players part, but I would focus on the design aspect of it, I think goliaths are a much better design and do a very similar thing but give TvP a lot more life. If Blizz adds BW Goliath in HOTS, it will be underused in TvP. umh no? void ray are a problem for mech tvp , and i don't think widow mine can solve it, and thor are already bad vs void ray in mass, we need a strong anti-air that is not good only against mutalisk. moreover mutalisk are already countered by rine, thor anti-air is very useless and silly...
On June 15 2012 22:03 Jealous wrote: I guess they figured out that they have to implement some BW stuff in order to make the game good ^^ hell, it's about time
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Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode.
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the fact that i need to make viking every time i need a strong anti armored-units , is retarded, in BW i can decide between liath and wraith with clock of course.
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Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.
These mines (Anti-air aside) have to be more like spider mines.. a MAP CONTROL thing that can either destroy the enemy army, or, if badly used, destroy your own army (dropping zealots on mines near siege tanks).
Why don't helions get an upgrade to lay down mines instead? a 150-150 upgrade that gives 2 mines to every helions or so. Terrans need to be the "low tech" human race that fights a swarm of aliens or high-tech robots/aliens.
Right now, Terrans are the protoss of BW (and the opposite applies). This started with marauders and this continues with the Warhound.
I believe the battle helions are an ok addition, but like most HoTS things (and SC2 as a whole), there aren't enough upgrades. Oracles, for example, should at least have 1 upgradable spell (the cloaking field for example).
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On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground).
There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet.
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On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss
ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye
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On June 15 2012 22:05 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 21:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 15 2012 18:06 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 15 2012 17:18 YoureFired wrote:On June 15 2012 16:25 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 15 2012 16:09 Evangelist wrote:On June 15 2012 15:39 Kharnage wrote:On June 14 2012 21:48 WarangelEldrith wrote: just drop the thor and the warhound and add the goliath :> It does seem like they have created this weird problem by removing a good unit and stubbornly refusing to put it back  The role of the goliath is filled by the marine, though - why build a gas heavy unit from a factory one at a time when you can build a cheaper, faster, healable unit 2 at a time from a rax? Thors do something unique though. They do a lot of ground DPS and very little air DPS, but over a wide area, A single thor can fortify a turret line or make cost efficient trades with zerg trying to pick off tanks and so on. Two thors can fortify a wide area. Three can pretty much prevent mutalisk harass of an army combined with more than a handful of marines. The way that terrans use thors is actually really unique. I'm not sure I'd want to replace thors with goliaths at this point. Why would you use a gas heavy unit from a factory to cover the best AA unit in the game >.> The main weakness of said "best AA unit" is its range. Thors, like vikings with void rays, keep the mutalisks from dancing around just outside of the marine's range. Now, debates on whether or not this is good/skillful game design (as mutalisk harass can now be easily shut down without huge micro on the Terran's part) are still relevant, but it's definitely a good strategy given the game as it is. Yeah, it is good strategy on the players part, but I would focus on the design aspect of it, I think goliaths are a much better design and do a very similar thing but give TvP a lot more life. If Blizz adds BW Goliath in HOTS, it will be underused in TvP. umh no? void ray are a problem for mech tvp , and i don't think widow mine can solve it, and thor are already bad vs void ray in mass, we need a strong anti-air that is not good only against mutalisk. moreover mutalisk are already countered by rine, thor anti-air is very useless and silly... Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:03 Jealous wrote: I guess they figured out that they have to implement some BW stuff in order to make the game good ^^ hell, it's about time
I'm just speculating here but if the Factory units are going to be Hellion-Tank-BW Goliath-Thor-Widow Mine, Void-rays are not going to be the issue. In a pure mech army, there is no way of dealing with Colossus-Stalker death ball. Goliaths are not going to help here (again, just speculating).
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i think they can just buff the tank and make widow mine/tank viable versus toss, instead of making a new mech like the warhound, buffing tank would solve this, i know they are afraid that might become too strong in tvz, but with abduct and swarm host, it will be balanced, just buff the damn tank and scrap the warhound/thor and give us goliath
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On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye
I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race.
-For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units.
-Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race.
-And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units.
WTH Blizzard?
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On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote: Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode. Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches.
I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply.
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On June 15 2012 22:22 Garmer wrote: i think they can just buff the tank and make widow mine/tank viable versus toss, instead of making a new mech like the warhound, buffing tank would solve this, i know they are afraid that might become too strong in tvz, but with abduct and swarm host, it will be balanced, just buff the damn tank and scrap the warhound/thor and give us goliath
The only time tanks look OP is when they are sieged up right infront of the enemy ramp. But whose fault is that? The enemy should not have let the Terran simply walk over to their base. Terran literally has the weakest ability towards map control.
To many players are turtling at their base instead of roaming the map and then they wonder why tanks are "OP".
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On June 15 2012 22:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote: Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode. Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches. I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply.
Vikings should be made in the Factory like in the Alpha. Then have Flight Mode be an UpGrade.
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On June 15 2012 22:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote: Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode. Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches. I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply.
I think this would be a pretty reasonable buff make Vikings useful units in groundform once upgrades come into play . Because they get shredded in the later stages if you ever land them since you will not have them upgrades that much.
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On June 15 2012 22:22 Garmer wrote: i think they can just buff the tank and make widow mine/tank viable versus toss, instead of making a new mech like the warhound, buffing tank would solve this, i know they are afraid that might become too strong in tvz, but with abduct and swarm host, it will be balanced, just buff the damn tank and scrap the warhound/thor and give us goliath
Okay, this I can agree with.
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On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet.
I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank.
and Yes (for the comment about zergs being less swarmy), they should try 1 supply roaches (nerfed,of course).. that should make the zergs more about what they should be. Right now, the roach is a stronger zealot, which is just dumb. Protoss should be the ones destroying the other races in a 1 on 1 fight. A stimmed marauder laughs at stalkers, a roach laughs at a zealot. A glance at BW TvP should be made by Blizzard.
I've always seen the Zerg/Protoss dynamic similar to Aliens Vs Predators. A predator should destroy an alien 1on1.. now it's all screwed up.
Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance. The fact that marauders and warhounds exist just prove that Blizzard doesn't know what terrans are about (judging by BW standards). Don't forget that BW and SC2 devs aren't the same.. some important stuff seems to have been lost in the transition.
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On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet. I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank. and Yes (for the comment about zergs being less swarmy), they should try 1 supply roaches (nerfed,of course).. that should make the zergs more about what they should be. Right now, the roach is a stronger zealot, which is just dumb. Protoss should be the ones destroying the other races in a 1 on 1 fight. A stimmed marauder laughs at stalkers, a roach laughs at a zealot. A glance at BW TvP should be made by Blizzard. I've always seen the Zerg/Protoss dynamic similar to Aliens Vs Predators. A predator should destroy an alien 1on1.. now it's all screwed up. Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance.
I used to always use the Alien vs. Predator to describe BW to my friends. And that the Terran were the poor sobs that got caught in the middle.
Personally, I have not worry in regards to balance. Blizzard knows how to balance. I am just hating there game design. Zerg is Protoss, Terran is Protoss, and Protoss units are all Scouts.
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I think the tank should receive some love
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On June 15 2012 22:40 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote: Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode. Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches. I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply. I think this would be a pretty reasonable buff make Vikings useful units in groundform once upgrades come into play . Because they get shredded in the later stages if you ever land them since you will not have them upgrades that much.
Yeah that would have been reasonable!
On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love
Yeah man, alot of us do!
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On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love
Personally I think a lot of units need some love, not just for Terran but for Protoss as well.
I believe the main problem with SC2 in general is Blizzard finds the need to pigeonhole units into one specfic role and require a specific unit composition. For example, Zealots can't do shit on their own vs Zerg, they need Stalkers and/or Sentries. Zealots lack a lot of potential to be anything other than tanking units, and that's gonna be further cemented once the Battle Hellion comes out. Stalkers on the other hand have -a lot- of utility. They can defend, attack, harass, and are very microable increase their overall potential.
But that leads to this silly "Hard Counter" system they implemented. I wasn't a BW gamer, but I'm sure they didn't have a counter system. Well, I guess you could say the Defiler countered the entire Terran Army 'n such, but it's much more extreme in SCII. Things like the Marauder, Immortal, Colossus, Viking, Corrupter, etc. limits the potential that this game has and instead made this clusterfuck of getting out a lot of this specific unit to counter a lot of this other specific unit (Viking/Corrupter vs Colossus, Ghost vs HT, Broodlord vs Mothership, Immortal vs Tank, Infestor vs EVERYTHING), and it only continues in HOTS
This in turn forces players to go into Deathball mode because units literally can't do anything by themselves.
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On June 15 2012 22:30 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race. -For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units. -Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race. -And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units. WTH Blizzard?
This has been a concern of mine as well. Zerg not only has the advantage of Economy, but their units are also as or more cost efficient than Terran's units EVEN in a defensive position. Polt v. Stephano at MLG. MVP v. Hosin. Zergs can just swarm a Terran attack and trade units evenly, or even at an advantage while building up 4-5 hatcheries to Terran's 2-3.
It just seems that Zerg gets the best of both worlds. They have the economy and units that neuter defensive, and ostensibly "cost efficient defensive positions". The problem is even in WoL, and probably even moreso in HotS with the viper, the "defensive position" doesn't even exist. As a rank 1 master Terran, I've never had so much trouble this and last season v. Zerg where I will set up a strong contain (bunkers, tanks, upgrades) and Zerg can just A move their army and then from watching the replay, they trade more cost efficiently than I do. Wtf.
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On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love
Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work.
Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers.
If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so!
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Seriously, with that mine I see "minedrag" evolving to a new dimension... <.<
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On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so!
It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason.
BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying.
In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side.
Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT.
And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you...
Damn I miss that MU.
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The only unit I hope just gets removed from the game completely is the warhound. It just overlaps with other units too much and it's so boring wtf. Stop with this " we want to make terran more a-move friendly", do it in a different way please.
Hope to see mech viable, just the way they're doing it now is that you play defensively and get that ball up.(at least that's what i gather from the interviews) They should watch Fantasy play BW and make mech like that!
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On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU.
I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well.
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On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet. I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank. and Yes (for the comment about zergs being less swarmy), they should try 1 supply roaches (nerfed,of course).. that should make the zergs more about what they should be. Right now, the roach is a stronger zealot, which is just dumb. Protoss should be the ones destroying the other races in a 1 on 1 fight. A stimmed marauder laughs at stalkers, a roach laughs at a zealot. A glance at BW TvP should be made by Blizzard. I've always seen the Zerg/Protoss dynamic similar to Aliens Vs Predators. A predator should destroy an alien 1on1.. now it's all screwed up. Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance. The fact that marauders and warhounds exist just prove that Blizzard doesn't know what terrans are about (judging by BW standards). Don't forget that BW and SC2 devs aren't the same.. some important stuff seems to have been lost in the transition. all this things happened, because too much time has passed between BW and SC2, if SC2 was released , let's say in 2004 at max, would have been a much more faithful sequel
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Isn't the warhound supposed to do less damage to nonmechanical units?
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On June 16 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU. I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well. No one is arguing that. People are debaiting how that factory play will actualy look, and are woried that it might be just a buffed up version of bio. In short, that Tanks will act just as support units making mech borring, or similar to other styles and ultimatly, mech only in name, not style.
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On June 16 2012 03:25 TeslaTrooper wrote: Isn't the warhound supposed to do less damage to nonmechanical units?
It has an ability which does direct damage to mechanical units. From the stats, it appears to more than double the damage of the opening volly of shots. It does not fire at the same rate as the basic attack, which still does pretty reasonable damage as it is. The ability does not interupt the basic attack, but it is unclear if it can be used on a seperate target from the basic attack.
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On June 16 2012 03:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:25 TeslaTrooper wrote: Isn't the warhound supposed to do less damage to nonmechanical units? It has an ability which does direct damage to mechanical units. From the stats, it appears to more than double the damage of the opening volly of shots. It does not fire at the same rate as the basic attack, which still does pretty reasonable damage as it is. The ability does not interupt the basic attack, but it is unclear if it can be used on a seperate target from the basic attack. I wonder if it uses it against biological units, although for less damage of course. Would be weird not you use those rocket against biological units if there are no mechanical units nearby.
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On June 16 2012 03:11 Andr3 wrote: The only unit I hope just gets removed from the game completely is the warhound. It just overlaps with other units too much and it's so boring wtf. Stop with this " we want to make terran more a-move friendly", do it in a different way please.
Hope to see mech viable, just the way they're doing it now is that you play defensively and get that ball up.(at least that's what i gather from the interviews) They should watch Fantasy play BW and make mech like that!
To me the warhound looks like the opposite of an a-move unit. Your missiles are on a fairly decent cooldown, so if you are fighting stalkers for example, you want to pick some off with missiles and back off. Against siege tanks it might be viable to run them within 7 range, tank some siege tank hits, pick off some tanks with missiles, and then back off before marines can react or second volley of siege tank fire hits.
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On June 16 2012 03:11 Andr3 wrote: The only unit I hope just gets removed from the game completely is the warhound. It just overlaps with other units too much and it's so boring wtf. Stop with this " we want to make terran more a-move friendly", do it in a different way please.
Hope to see mech viable, just the way they're doing it now is that you play defensively and get that ball up.(at least that's what i gather from the interviews) They should watch Fantasy play BW and make mech like that!
I completely disagree with this. I think Terran needs a non-niche supply effective unit. I'd love for the unit to be less a-move friendly, provided it could be done without making it some cutsie unit that doesn't do anything, and isn't dependent off of energy. I don't think we'll see that, though. The widow mine is a great example of how Blizzard is trying to design units in a way that isn't working. They want to make a unit where one person acts and another reacts - but if they make the reaction too easy, no one will use it - and if they make a reaction too difficult, they risk breaking the matchup. At a high level, the space between "too difficult" and "too easy" becomes almost nothing - it's either you make it always work or you make it never work.
I think the fact that you say this unit is nothing special implies you don't really understand it. As far as non-cutesie units are concerned, I think the warhound is a lot better than most of what's out there. For more of my thoughts, I wrote a blog on this unit: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=345180 .
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On June 16 2012 02:07 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:30 GinDo wrote:On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race. -For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units. -Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race. -And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units. WTH Blizzard? This has been a concern of mine as well. Zerg not only has the advantage of Economy, but their units are also as or more cost efficient than Terran's units EVEN in a defensive position. Polt v. Stephano at MLG. MVP v. Hosin. Zergs can just swarm a Terran attack and trade units evenly, or even at an advantage while building up 4-5 hatcheries to Terran's 2-3. It just seems that Zerg gets the best of both worlds. They have the economy and units that neuter defensive, and ostensibly "cost efficient defensive positions". The problem is even in WoL, and probably even moreso in HotS with the viper, the "defensive position" doesn't even exist. As a rank 1 master Terran, I've never had so much trouble this and last season v. Zerg where I will set up a strong contain (bunkers, tanks, upgrades) and Zerg can just A move their army and then from watching the replay, they trade more cost efficiently than I do. Wtf.
It used to be that a Tank position actually meant something. Everything these days have so much HP and Run really. Most tanks only take 1 shot before dieing.
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On June 16 2012 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU. I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well. No one is arguing that. People are debaiting how that factory play will actualy look, and are woried that it might be just a buffed up version of bio. In short, that Tanks will act just as support units making mech borring, or similar to other styles and ultimatly, mech only in name, not style.
Yeah, we will have to see. As long as warhound and BH need the support of tanks and much as the tanks need them, I think it will be ok. If both units are slow and clunky enough that they can be flanked by faster units, they will need the support of tanks to secure an area. Tanks need to be the back bone, I agree, but not the only unit that is built.
I agee that I don't want another bio-ball, but the units cant be healed by medivacs, have no stim and limited ability to drop. They are not going to be this fast moving ball of damage that heals as it runs.
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On June 16 2012 03:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 16 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote: I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU. I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well. No one is arguing that. People are debaiting how that factory play will actualy look, and are woried that it might be just a buffed up version of bio. In short, that Tanks will act just as support units making mech borring, or similar to other styles and ultimatly, mech only in name, not style. Tanks need to be the back bone, I agree, but not the only unit that is built. Yep. But from the admittedly little information we have, this unit looks set replace the Tank as the back bone of a mech army, so we whine about it lol. We'll see.
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On June 16 2012 03:35 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:07 zmansman17 wrote:On June 15 2012 22:30 GinDo wrote:On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race. -For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units. -Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race. -And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units. WTH Blizzard? This has been a concern of mine as well. Zerg not only has the advantage of Economy, but their units are also as or more cost efficient than Terran's units EVEN in a defensive position. Polt v. Stephano at MLG. MVP v. Hosin. Zergs can just swarm a Terran attack and trade units evenly, or even at an advantage while building up 4-5 hatcheries to Terran's 2-3. It just seems that Zerg gets the best of both worlds. They have the economy and units that neuter defensive, and ostensibly "cost efficient defensive positions". The problem is even in WoL, and probably even moreso in HotS with the viper, the "defensive position" doesn't even exist. As a rank 1 master Terran, I've never had so much trouble this and last season v. Zerg where I will set up a strong contain (bunkers, tanks, upgrades) and Zerg can just A move their army and then from watching the replay, they trade more cost efficiently than I do. Wtf. It used to be that a Tank position actually meant something. Everything these days have so much HP and Run really. Most tanks only take 1 shot before dieing.
Tank position still matters but they become very hard to use effectively against Hive tech (both BLs and Ultras).
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if Blizzard bring back the old tanks from the WoL Beta and the game will be balanced
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Canada13386 Posts
So, quick question about the mothership, if its losing cloaking ability and it is losing its ability to vortex flying units then at what point does it actually serve a good purpose now? Stasis seems ok but the problem is protoss is losing the only tool it has to kill a heavy broodlord force.
The tempest might be helpful but it shoots so slowly that you would need a lot of them to be able to kill the broodlords :/
Then again I am assuming the game will follow the same patter it does now with brood infestor as a strong lategame composition.
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I might be unique here but I think removing low--> high ground miss chance ruined the game. There's no more strategic positioning that lets races be different. People just herp derp mass stuff and charge them at each other while mixing in some spells and the only way to balance this is to make the races similar.
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On June 16 2012 12:09 ZeromuS wrote: So, quick question about the mothership, if its losing cloaking ability and it is losing its ability to vortex flying units then at what point does it actually serve a good purpose now? Stasis seems ok but the problem is protoss is losing the only tool it has to kill a heavy broodlord force.
The tempest might be helpful but it shoots so slowly that you would need a lot of them to be able to kill the broodlords :/
Then again I am assuming the game will follow the same patter it does now with brood infestor as a strong lategame composition.
Zergs already have a kill everything or die and kill nothing unit in the broodlord, cannot believe they are adding another one. What the hell...
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Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup?
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On June 16 2012 12:26 hummingbird23 wrote: Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup?
It depends on how well you can engage Colossi with Warhounds and how well Battle Helions actually do against Zealots with Colossi and Storm raining doom upon them. I'm still not sure how an immobile will surive the pure carnage of Toss endgame the damage output is so high that i fear mech will melt just like Bio without the potential do avoid the damage since everything is just slower.
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On June 16 2012 12:00 foxj wrote: if Blizzard bring back the old tanks from the WoL Beta and the game will be balanced Except that would completely break TvP, the 111 would be impossible to hold.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On June 16 2012 12:39 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:26 hummingbird23 wrote: Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup? It depends on how well you can engage Colossi with Warhounds and how well Battle Helions actually do against Zealots with Colossi and Storm raining doom upon them. I'm still not sure how an immobile will surive the pure carnage of Toss endgame the damage output is so high that i fear mech will melt just like Bio without the potential do avoid the damage since everything is just slower.
Templars won't be as useful, especially in the numbers we see them vs Bio, with Siege Tanks out on the field. We will probably have to see Warp Prism's with HT in them to storm drop Mech armies.
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On June 16 2012 13:19 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:39 s3rp wrote:On June 16 2012 12:26 hummingbird23 wrote: Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup? It depends on how well you can engage Colossi with Warhounds and how well Battle Helions actually do against Zealots with Colossi and Storm raining doom upon them. I'm still not sure how an immobile will surive the pure carnage of Toss endgame the damage output is so high that i fear mech will melt just like Bio without the potential do avoid the damage since everything is just slower. Templars won't be as useful, especially in the numbers we see them vs Bio, with Siege Tanks out on the field. We will probably have to see Warp Prism's with HT in them to storm drop Mech armies.
Its very dependent on how good Battle Helions actually deal with Zealots . Right now HT's are very good vs Mech even if you have tanks since Zealots just eat damage like a boss before the HT's get in range of the tanks and then just mob up . Tanks also need 3 shots before they reach +2 damage that makes quite a difference.
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On June 16 2012 13:18 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:00 foxj wrote: if Blizzard bring back the old tanks from the WoL Beta and the game will be balanced Except that would completely break TvP, the 111 would be impossible to hold.
um, 13 range mothership core that does 60 dmg per shot and has zero tech req?
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On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless.
Damn, you just made the world easier for all of us, man, why do people keep making dts, cloaked banshees, burrowed banelings... Idiot. Back on OP, holyfuck 7 range on reaper? really? I mean I know we got 5 ranged queens now, but, really? So we're gonna open speedlings early as fuck to avoid getting owned by 3 reapers? Sounds fucked up, need to see this in action tho, apart from that, maaan they seem to have done a good job at correcting themselves. On paper these changes actually seem ok, which is hella surprising to me, I was expecting HOTS to kill SC2 esport for like 8 months before they balance it out, but this should do. At least they got rid of that terran "no more zerglings" mine, and burrowed baneling movement (yeah, even as a zerg, with all my bias I couldnt support this one... Sneaking 5 banelings underneath 10 sentries would have been hella fun, but broken yeah), really really curious to see all that in game now, gj blizzard for not killing your own game (yet)!
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On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote: Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet. I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank.
The problem with that kind of thinking is that, well, what you get is SC1. If you pigeonhole a race to being exactly what they are in SC1, there's no design room left to do anything except make SC1 with prettier graphics. Ultimately, if you're going to make a sequel, you have to accept that some things need to change.
Now, to be fair, there's good change and bad change. Where Blizzard screwed up is that they kept Siege Tanks around, which meant designing all of the Factory stuff around STs. If they had come up with their own idea for Terran Mech, one that fit with the race's design (glass cannons: low Hp, but long range keep-away-style play) but used different parts to achieve it, then they could have created something worthwhile.
But no. Instead, we get nerfed STs, a modified Spider Mine, and random other stuff to cover up for these two. There's no real design; there is just balance.
On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote: Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance. The fact that marauders and warhounds exist just prove that Blizzard doesn't know what terrans are about (judging by BW standards). Don't forget that BW and SC2 devs aren't the same.. some important stuff seems to have been lost in the transition.
It's a matter of priority. Blizzard doesn't care what the Terrans "are about". They only care about balance. And in terms of balance, Marauders are actually a good thing. In SC1, the entire production line from the Barracks was rendered virtually useless in TvP by the Protoss having two really, really good AoE options. Reavers murder M&M by the dozens, and HT kill them quick and easy too.
Marauders aren't as weak to AoE. They have lots of HP; they can take a hit. Coupled with the replacement of Reavers with Colossi (lower burst AoE per-unit cost), this means that Barracks play actually works against the Protoss.
Thus the needs of balance are served: Terrans in SC2 have more options against the Protoss (well, technically. WoL only gives them Bio-play, so it's a lateral move. HotS looks to actually give them the two options they're supposed to have).
Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design.
Blizzard's failing here is a failure of imagination, the lack of will to achieve the needs of balance while working within each race's unit design. The Roach is a perfect example of this.
Originally, the Roach was all about being a high Hp Zerg unit without the high Hp. It relied on fast regeneration to survive engagements. As a mid-ranged unit, it would make for a good wall for Hydralisks; as such, it was Tier 2.
That didn't last. The regen mechanic wasn't working in testing with the Roach, but for the sake of balance, they needed Roaches to be damage sponges. Basically, early-game mini-Ultralisks. So they abandoned the regen concept, opting instead for high Hp. The exact thing that they were trying to avoid.
Blizzard did this a lot in the development of SC2. They'd come up with some nifty, unique concept, but the balance wouldn't work out, so they stuffed it and went with something generic. It happened all the time. The Colossus was once an experiment in making a single-target, high damage unit work without AoE. You might notice the Colossus now has AoE, so we see how well that worked.
What Blizzard needed to do was dedicate themselves to making the game work within the design space. If something wasn't working within that space, then they needed to fix that instead of ignoring their design limitations. Too often, Blizzard would remove some critical piece from a unit, but still keep the unit itself because something needed to be in that space, and it may as well be that unit. There seemed to be a pretty huge hesitation on Blizzard's part to actually cut something that wasn't working and replace it with something that does work.
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Suggestions/Philosophy (dont' focus on numbers that would make it unbalanced, just core concepts that can be balanced)
Terrans - I think the idea is to reinforce the "scappyness" of the Humanity. This means you either have small/medium commando-style attacks (i.e. drops, small roving marine bands, maybe some hellion play) and larger entrenched attrition style attacks (mech plays).
- Warhound - seems just like a Vanilla unit, so I am thinking to remove the attack altogether and place it with the Repair (costs energy not minerals) ability, along with the ability to build structures. The missles can stay so that it can contribute to the fight, but I think this type of unit would give mech the right feel. You build up these expensive units, but you also have to take care of them because you can't afford to lose anything. Building structures further contributes to the entrenching feel to it, Bunkers/Turrets, maybe even a Factory or Barracks to shorten the supply line. Requires Tech Lab.
- Widow Mine - from what i hear, it's unbalanced. I'm not a fan of it. rather than try to make the concept work, I think just letting it hit air units would make it good. it is a safer trade (no probe scout kills), and it serves a purpose to provide anti-air for mech. Doesn't Require Tech Lab.
- Reaper - i'd like to see more of this unit. i think regenerating health is a bad idea. i think making it require a Reactor rather than a Tech Lab would address the extremely long build time, which screws with the timing on implementing a Reaper strategy.
- Orbital Command - small nerf for a specific cases (basically just Protoss). invisible or hallucinated units require both detection and unit sight. meaning if you orbital scan, but do not have a unit that has line of sight, then hallucinated units will appear normal and invisible units will not be shown.
Zerg - Should always feel like it's breaking a rule. Either in having an unbelievable amount of units (macro) or coming at odd angles with multipronged attacks.
- Swarm Lord - This unit I feel is just too powerful. Not unbalanced, but invalidating other units. It's a zergling/roach/hyrdralisk all in one. So, i'd change the swarms from ground ranged units to air units with a ground only attack. This let's them work with other units rather than be redundant. Also, it helps with multipronged attacks more, since you don't have to just spawn them and send them forward as if they were just extended range, but rather use their aerial mobility to strike at different places.
- Nydus Network - really like the concept, just think it needs to be more cost efficient. so, i'd change the cost of a Nydus Worm to being energy. Nydus is a tactical skill rather than a strategic (unit) oriented one because honestly, you can always deal with Nydus play, but you just have to deal with it. I think this change would go a long way to encouraging it.
- Overseer - I would change the whole Overlord drop tactic to being a single upgrade (speed + sacs) that an Overseer can cast on an Overlord (graning those abilities). This isn't much of a change, but I'd also like for this ability to grant a new ability and that is for the Overlord to instantly die allowing the units inside to instantly drop.
Protoss - Honestly, some people seem to dislike the deathball, but that's just what it is. Now I think there is diveristy that can be made, and this is the most extensive set of suggestions I have, but I don't think it changes the fundamentals of the race. Robo is about big expensive deathballs, Stargate is more about Warpgate-centric deathballs with air support.
- Sentry - big changes for it, the Immortal, the Warp Prism, and the Void Ray, so keep this in mind. Sentry is going to require a Robotics Facility. It won't build from them, but it'll require it to unlock the unit. Also, the Sentry will lose Guardian Shield (going to Immortal) and automatically have Hallucinate. So, a pretty hefty nerf to Sentries. But I think Hallucinate is much better than people give it credit for, it's just never worth it as an upgrade. However, as a free ability on a unit that is good anyways, I think it'll see much more play. Partly this change is to shift Protss plays along trees, and it seems like the metagame has shifted away from needing early Sentries (or at least earlier than they could after this change) anyways.
- Immortal - can upgrade from the Robotics bay to have Guardian Shield. pretty clearly a buff, I feel like leaving the unit as an "anti-armor" only unit, needlessly limits it. anything that isn't armor and it could attack, is going to be generally better address with Colossus anyways. giving it Guardian Shield makes it a much more well-rounded support units, tanking against high damage units, but also providing support against low damage range units. Part of the thought is that strengthening Immortals might help make it better to go Immortals against Collosus battles. Also it helps disguish it from an otherwise generally better unit the Void Ray.
- Void Ray - now can be built from a Robotics Facility and requires a Robotics Bay. The Stage two attack now requires an upgrade, but you can upgrade it twice to get a Stage three attack. The idea behind building it from a Robotics Facility is that it is more of a death ball unit, rather than a harass unit which is more typical for Stargate play. Also this sets up more strategic balance for robo plays. Mixes between Void Rays, Colossus, and Immortals have different advantages and disadvantages. the natural advantages of coming for Robotics Facility tech are reduced by making it a tier 3 unit.
- Observer - can now be built from either a Stargate or a Robotics Facility. Upgrade moved to Cybernetics Core. I don't want Preordain, I just want to build an Observer. So rather than trying to make some comparable replacement, just let us build Observers.
- Oracle - Remove Preordain. Replace it with nothing. Entomb re-balanced to cost 50 energy, but only cover half of the minerals. Making it only at a best cast high half the minerals, i think adds enough skill that it's not just a fire and forget, but have to make sure you hit them all without any overlaps or missing patches. 50 means that it can go immediately. Cloak will see a bunch of changes and require an upgrade (Cybernetics Core). The 100 energy ability will cause the Oracle to turn switch to cloaking mode where it is stationary (energy is to change to this mode, it is free to stay in the mode), invisibles and causes any building within it's cloak field (same size as a Warp Prism) to become invisible. Other units, however, will not turn invisible. This allows you to use it for defense with cannons or just turning walls or buildings invisible, and importantly allows you to have invisible proxy pylons.
- Warp Prism - is now built from Stargates and has the speed upgrade in the cybernetics core. In theme with the Stargates is Warpgates + air support. I think the lack of stable units to build from the Stargate (meaning it's very situational to get benefits from the units) is a unwanted weakness of Stargate play. With Observers, Warp Prisms and Oracles, it's much more stable to get benefits from building a Stargate.
- Tempest - is a reverse Void Ray. no longer requires a Fleet Beacon, but the upgrade is still there. by reverse Void Ray i mean that it enters into higher DPS stages by not being in combat. this address the severe lack of damage by the unit, but not overpowering it (hopefully at least) with it's long range. It can fire off a few shots, but then it drops down in damage and it's actually more beneficial to move it out of combat than just letting it attack. this hopefully encourages smaller engagements to gain benefits from the unit with the initial bombardment allowing a smaller deathball to engage a larger group that has been softened up.
- Dark Templar - New upgrade in the Dark Shrine. Increases Dark Templar health and/or shields. Really long and expensive upgrade, but I find Archons from Dark Templar to just be expensive, and I'd like Dark Templar to serve a little bit more utility. Per Supply, they actually aren't bad in terms of health/shields. With this they wouldnt be come cost effective, but I would want the increase in health to be greater than Zealots and worthwhile enough that it would be valid to use them to tank (if you have the money) if you care more about being supply effective. I'm thinking +40/+40.
- Mothership Core - a hugely imporant unit, and once i'm very excited about having in HotS. requires a factory. also needs a number of changes. Energize and Mass Recall (Recall) both will have unlock requirements. Energize will require a Templar Archive. Mass Recall (Recall) will require a Fleet Beacon. Recall is now rebalanced to only work as a single target spell (meant as a nerf). Both of these abilities are awesome, but I didn't want them to be standing too closely to the obviously powerful Robotics Facility, which would really want either Energize or a Recall. This forces them into mixing their tech trees rather than just relying on robo to get those benefits. Teleport and Purify will stay on as the only abilities that the Core gets without these unlocks. Teleport will be changed to being free (so you don't have to camp energy on it). Teleport/Purify just being there to assist in expands. Upgradeable to a Mothership which has the same abilities, but can now is untethered to a Nexus and can fly and attack.
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On June 16 2012 14:49 NicolBolas wrote: Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design. it's possible for sure, for example, make the marauders a 60 hp /1 armor unit, that throws a fragmentation grenade, at long range(start with 6 and +2 with an upgrade) and does aoe damage(1.5 range aoe), the grenade don't explode on impact but after 2 sec and make tons of damage, like 40-50, this will force toss to micro his army.
you see , i have created an unit ten times more interesting than a regular marauders, Blizzard is just lazy or lack imagination...
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On June 16 2012 14:06 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting  Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless. Damn, you just made the world easier for all of us, man, why do people keep making dts, cloaked banshees, burrowed banelings... Idiot. Back on OP, holyfuck 7 range on reaper? really? I mean I know we got 5 ranged queens now, but, really? So we're gonna open speedlings early as fuck to avoid getting owned by 3 reapers? Sounds fucked up, need to see this in action tho, apart from that, maaan they seem to have done a good job at correcting themselves. On paper these changes actually seem ok, which is hella surprising to me, I was expecting HOTS to kill SC2 esport for like 8 months before they balance it out, but this should do. At least they got rid of that terran "no more zerglings" mine, and burrowed baneling movement (yeah, even as a zerg, with all my bias I couldnt support this one... Sneaking 5 banelings underneath 10 sentries would have been hella fun, but broken yeah), really really curious to see all that in game now, gj blizzard for not killing your own game (yet)!
The Reaper range was a mistake by the OP.
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Sorry for the double post but completely seperate question hours later - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it?
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On June 17 2012 01:30 Iyerbeth wrote: Sorry for the double post but completely seperate questions hours later so - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it? No upgrade needed. But I still miss a "real" Zerg stealth unit, because the Locusts are visible and burrowed Banes can`t move.
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On June 17 2012 01:32 Cruncher93 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:30 Iyerbeth wrote: Sorry for the double post but completely seperate questions hours later so - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it? No upgrade needed. But I still miss a "real" Zerg stealth unit, because the Locusts are visible and burrowed Banes can`t move.
Thank you.
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God please make the warhounds heywire non-auto castable
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On June 17 2012 01:32 Cruncher93 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:30 Iyerbeth wrote: Sorry for the double post but completely seperate questions hours later so - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it? No upgrade needed. But I still miss a "real" Zerg stealth unit, because the Locusts are visible and burrowed Banes can`t move.
infestors, roaches, banelings are all good at being stealthy, just need to research burrow mate
swarm host isn't meant to be a stealth unit, it's a siege unit that spawns free units that can attack AIR, AIRRRRRR, holy fuck that's a big deal.
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On June 16 2012 15:32 Quasi.In.Rem wrote: Suggestions/Philosophy (dont' focus on numbers that would make it unbalanced, just core concepts that can be balanced)
- Widow Mine - from what i hear, it's unbalanced. I'm not a fan of it. rather than try to make the concept work, I think just letting it hit air units would make it good. it is a safer trade (no probe scout kills), and it serves a purpose to provide anti-air for mech. Doesn't Require Tech Lab.
I kinda like this idea it would help mech where it's weakest, but it would defeat the whole purpose of border control and it would become too specific and doubt we would see them other than TvZ where zerg goes mutas which in its self quite rare thesedays.
On June 16 2012 15:32 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
- Nydus Network - really like the concept, just think it needs to be more cost efficient. so, i'd change the cost of a Nydus Worm to being energy. Nydus is a tactical skill rather than a strategic (unit) oriented one because honestly, you can always deal with Nydus play, but you just have to deal with it. I think this change would go a long way to encouraging it.
How about make it Hive tech, where you research nydus and you can load/unload from all the hatcheries? or you get an alternative and get like a one off nydus worm and once used you have to research it again? and you'd load from the Hive again.
On June 16 2012 15:32 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
- Overseer - I would change the whole Overlord drop tactic to being a single upgrade (speed + sacs) that an Overseer can cast on an Overlord (graning those abilities). This isn't much of a change, but I'd also like for this ability to grant a new ability and that is for the Overlord to instantly die allowing the units inside to instantly drop.
So now players who just want fast overlords now have the suffer and pay a higher price? no thanks. keep them seperate.
I didn't go near protoss since I know I'd just go off on a tangent and eventually blabber on about how odd they are in SC2.
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Does anyone know of anything regarding viper's abduct ability and not being able to target massive units? I seem to recall something being mentioned but i just can't remember...
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On June 16 2012 18:25 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:49 NicolBolas wrote: Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design. it's possible for sure, for example, make the marauders a 60 hp /1 armor unit, that throws a fragmentation grenade, at long range(start with 6 and +2 with an upgrade) and does aoe damage(1.5 range aoe), the grenade don't explode on impact but after 2 sec and make tons of damage, like 40-50, this will force toss to micro his army. you see , i have created an unit ten times more interesting than a regular marauders, Blizzard is just lazy or lack imagination...
However more interesting this unit is than Marauders, you seem to have missed the point. Marauders exist to give Terrans a Bio unit that won't die quickly to AoE.
Yours doesn't fill that role. It fills an entirely different role. So again, regardless of how interesting the unit is, it doesn't do what it needs to do.
The challenge is to develop a Terran Bio unit that fits within the Terran design and is able to survive AoE.
On June 17 2012 11:41 ScienceRob wrote: Does anyone know of anything regarding viper's abduct ability and not being able to target massive units? I seem to recall something being mentioned but i just can't remember...
It certainly can abduct massive units. At no point was it ever stated or implied that it could not. Some people think that it shouldn't, but as far as the actual game is concerned, that's how it works.
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On June 16 2012 18:25 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:49 NicolBolas wrote: Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design. it's possible for sure, for example, make the marauders a 60 hp /1 armor unit, that throws a fragmentation grenade, at long range(start with 6 and +2 with an upgrade) and does aoe damage(1.5 range aoe), the grenade don't explode on impact but after 2 sec and make tons of damage, like 40-50, this will force toss to micro his army. you see , i have created an unit ten times more interesting than a regular marauders, Blizzard is just lazy or lack imagination...
really nice idea but the 40-50 dmg just makes the marauder like the infestor's fungals. Really easy to use and all depends to the opponent's micro which is stupid and overly imbalanced in low leagues. except if that would have like an extreme long cd which would make it an almost exact copy of the reaver
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Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru:
RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber.
Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous.
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Oracle At last every non-Terran can stop whining now about Banshees (the "flying DTs") ...
Cloaked Void Ray rush ... *cough* ... should be unscoutable (build the Stargate anywhere on the map and everyone will have problems finding it until it is too late).
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Is the hydralisk upgrade lair tech or hive?
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On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: Show nested quote +RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous.
There's no way this stays in unless they change the speed creep goes away.
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i kinda liked the zerg dynamic in the reports... those mines looks so fucking OP btw.. terran gets only mech 1a units, im not sure if thats such a great move.
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On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: Show nested quote +RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous.
Oh man, I would proxy spine all day long with that.
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how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons.
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On June 20 2012 13:28 archonOOid wrote: how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons.
How does that happen ? The widow mine will change nothing in actual battles against Mech .10 seconds is ALOT and its extremely visible. You have to be afk or very slow to take damage from it other than the unit effected by just moving its out or killing it yourself.
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On June 20 2012 13:28 archonOOid wrote: how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons. Vipers and swarm hosts both seem good at slowly picking mech armies apart.
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On June 20 2012 13:28 archonOOid wrote: how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons.
it will be cost effective on any unit except a drone or zergling but you can kill your own unit to stop the explosion from hurting the rest of your army. I expect killing your own unit will be a preferred method when not engaged in combat.
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On June 20 2012 13:28 archonOOid wrote: how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons. If any terran is stupid enough to fly his medivacs over your army, there is this unit called an infestor.
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On June 20 2012 13:28 archonOOid wrote: how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons. This complaint is sooo silly that it almost hurts, because a widow mine ISNT A BANELING.
1. You have to drop it. 2. It has to burrow. 3. Then it latches onto a target and 4. after 10 friggin seconds it explodes.
So you basically can still use your units until the 10 seconds are up and ... who knows ... maybe the explosion from the widow mine works like siege tank fire and deals friendly fire. The point is that you can very easily just move a bunch of Zerglings in front when the Terran starts to drop and chances are high that you only lose 25 minerals for each Zergling while he spent 75/25 for the mine. It isnt rocket science ...
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On June 20 2012 13:16 nick1689 wrote: Is the hydralisk upgrade lair tech or hive?
It's Hive tech.
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Watching GSL got me thinking. If Zerg can have instantly detonating Baneling mines, why do the Widow Mines need to have a 10 second countdown on them? It's a little more powerful, certainly, but does 1 Widow Mine (which, I suspect, will almost always end up latching onto a Zealot or a Ling) really do more damage than 2 burrowed Banelings do to a group of Marines?
Or maybe I'm misreading this an an attempt to balance the mine when they actually just think it'd be fun to force/watch the oponent to try and separate out the hit unit.
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On June 21 2012 20:46 Dzerzhinsky wrote: Watching GSL got me thinking. If Zerg can have instantly detonating Baneling mines, why do the Widow Mines need to have a 10 second countdown on them? It's a little more powerful, certainly, but does 1 Widow Mine (which, I suspect, will almost always end up latching onto a Zealot or a Ling) really do more damage than 2 burrowed Banelings do to a group of Marines?
Or maybe I'm misreading this an an attempt to balance the mine when they actually just think it'd be fun to force/watch the oponent to try and separate out the hit unit. Blizzard is making for a diverse game, don't complain on one of the good things with HotS -
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On June 21 2012 20:46 Dzerzhinsky wrote: Watching GSL got me thinking. If Zerg can have instantly detonating Baneling mines, why do the Widow Mines need to have a 10 second countdown on them? It's a little more powerful, certainly, but does 1 Widow Mine (which, I suspect, will almost always end up latching onto a Zealot or a Ling) really do more damage than 2 burrowed Banelings do to a group of Marines?
Or maybe I'm misreading this an an attempt to balance the mine when they actually just think it'd be fun to force/watch the oponent to try and separate out the hit unit. it almost always kills the unit its attached to(except for zerglings and marines pretty much every other unit is atleast about equal in cost),(also think about early game hellion+widdow mine harass in pvz, if zerg play it like they do now they risk losing their queens), but more importantly it has attachement range 6 and hits air wich means that unlike baneling mines you can only snipe them with siege range units, you cant just clear them out with detection without losing anything. its not meant to be used on a group of marines its meant to kill a stalker or a tank or other units worth twice their cost, while forcing your opponent to use micro on getting single units out of his ball instead of microing the battle
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On June 21 2012 20:28 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 13:16 nick1689 wrote: Is the hydralisk upgrade lair tech or hive? It's Hive tech.
Ah, that's disappointing
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On June 25 2012 23:33 nick1689 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 20:28 Iyerbeth wrote:On June 20 2012 13:16 nick1689 wrote: Is the hydralisk upgrade lair tech or hive? It's Hive tech. Ah, that's disappointing 
Very disappointing.
That said, I'm glad hydras aren't utterly useless anymore. They were my favorite unit in BW.
Also: ultralisks.
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On June 20 2012 13:28 archonOOid wrote: how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons. 1. Run away ASAP before the mines are burrowed and ready and 2. send in Zerglings once they are burrowed.
He spends 72/25, you spend 25/0 ... maybe the explosions even harm the Terrans own unit like the Siege Tank (if Blizzard totally screwed up the Widow Mine).
Oh and there still is that thing called Nydus worm, which brings you into his base faster than he should be able to come back.
Since creep spreading is much easier nowadays you could also try advancing Spine + Spore Crawlers to "dig them up". I dont think they are triggered by buildings ...
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hmmm one thing to test would be what happens if a unit with a mine attached gets loaded into a transport <.<
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On June 26 2012 04:13 Naphal wrote: hmmm one thing to test would be what happens if a unit with a mine attached gets loaded into a transport <.< Nothing happens you'll simply will not be aple to put that unit to transport. IMO
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I've asked this question a few times to no answer.
Why haven't these new stats been put into the HOTS custom map?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On June 26 2012 05:43 Snoodles wrote: I've asked this question a few times to no answer.
Why haven't these new stats been put into the HOTS custom map? Because it's not updated for this time?
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On June 26 2012 05:46 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 05:43 Snoodles wrote: I've asked this question a few times to no answer.
Why haven't these new stats been put into the HOTS custom map? Because it's not updated for this time? 
I'd chip in with a donation or something and I'm sure others would too so that we can get as good a clone as possible to start testing gameplay instead of just speculating. The current outdated HoTs custom was pretty accurate.
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Oracle having 80 health and only 20 shields should be changed to maybe 60 health and 40 shields, or 40 health and 60 shields. With 100 health it is still relatively easy to pick off but one shot from a cannon, turret or spore instantly gets rid of all it's shields and reduces the oracle's reusability as the health that you cannot repair is whittled down.
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On July 10 2012 01:42 LucidityDark wrote: Oracle having 80 health and only 20 shields should be changed to maybe 60 health and 40 shields, or 40 health and 60 shields. With 100 health it is still relatively easy to pick off but one shot from a cannon, turret or spore instantly gets rid of all it's shields and reduces the oracle's reusability as the health that you cannot repair is whittled down.
Considering that it currently only takes half a second to entomb a mineral line, I think the HP/shield ratio is pretty reasonable. Unlike the WP, the Oracle does not have to stay in place when it uses its abilities, so any damage a player can do to it should count.
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i'd much rather see the mine being dropped by a unit instead of the factory and make it not cost supply. And I hope we won't be able to kil the unit which carries the mine to bypass the explosion. I hope it will still explode. I also hope we will be able to load it up into overlords and stuff but then it will just explode inside the transport (after the ten seconds) and kill it with it. I also should deal friendly fire.
This way we'll have zealot or zergling bombing back again which was just so much fun. Run zergling into minefield, widow mine attaches to zergling. Load it up into overlord, sent it flying over a group of tanks, drop it. EXPLOSIONS. Deal with it. :D Although this is probably going to be way too hard to excecute. Spider mine just had a lot more fun concepts to it. Although it might become ultralisk bombing this way because a zergling would probably not survive and picking out the single zerglign which has the mine and load it into a overlord is a lot harder than picking up the ultra, which can survive other damage a lot better and is a lot easier to load into the transport, that has the mine on it.
The mines are not going to be that good if they're going to cost supply and have to be made from the factory imo. You're going to have way too few of them and he'll just be able to sacrifice some cheap lings to counter them. If you put them on a unit and make them not cost supply they'll be a lot more massable and terran will have a decent form of zone control. (siegetank sucked in wol, they will suck even more in hots because of the viper unless they majorly buff them again, see modifying movement threads etc).
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I hope they buff some late game units for terran, because they addressed nothing against late game broodlord/infestor army.
And "don't let them reach that phase" is not a real solid argument
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Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air????
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On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air????
almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups
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On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air????
Or blink, or come out of a Rax(aka, Gateway for protoss), or upgrade on the same path as all other ground units. The warhound is also slightly slower, does not have shields and cannot be warped in. But you are right, beyond all of those things, they are the exact same units.
Edit: Grammer
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On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups
I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning.
If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore.
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On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust
Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking
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On July 10 2012 01:49 iky43210 wrote: I hope they buff some late game units for terran, because they addressed nothing against late game broodlord/infestor army.
And "don't let them reach that phase" is not a real solid argument Mines seem like an excellent counter to it. Attack with your army and flank with a bunch of mines, the BLs are either forced to try to flee, clumsily focus fire the mines or spread out, either way giving your army enough time to DPS them down.
I wouldn't be surprised if they heavily adjusted ghosts and ravens too. Ghosts seem like a really poorly designed unit in their current form, they just counter casters and do nothing else. Ravens just suck.
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On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: Show nested quote +RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush!
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On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking
1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.
2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement.
3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements.
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On July 10 2012 02:12 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 01:49 iky43210 wrote: I hope they buff some late game units for terran, because they addressed nothing against late game broodlord/infestor army.
And "don't let them reach that phase" is not a real solid argument Mines seem like an excellent counter to it. Attack with your army and flank with a bunch of mines, the BLs are either forced to try to flee, clumsily focus fire the mines or spread out, either way giving your army enough time to DPS them down. I wouldn't be surprised if they heavily adjusted ghosts and ravens too. Ghosts seem like a really poorly designed unit in their current form, they just counter casters and do nothing else. Ravens just suck. mines can be killed, tbh I don't see how you can run mines into a group of broodlords before they get blocked by broodlings or fungal to death
I hope they buff ghosts and ravens
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Sakagami I've noticed from both personal experience and stream observation that people overestimate the power of stalkers against mutalisks.
5 stalkers will not kill 16 mutalisks. It would be silly if they could.
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On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements.
and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit.
the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid)
If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late
In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front.
p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks.
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On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. Stalkers don't do enough DPS to be useful against a midgame MMM ball. The DPS of a Stalker is out-healed by a Medivac, so you're better off just getting Storm/Archons/Colossus. Those Zealots that are getting kited are actually doing more damage than any Stalkers you might have invested in, because the 1 hit they get off before they're out of range is more damage than a Stalker does.
The only reason we have Stalkers in the early game is because they're the only unit we can build. Zealots die to anything ranged and anything Zerg, and Sentries don't do much damage to anything. If we had a Marine or a Roach equivalent, we'd never make Stalkers in the early game because they're so damn expensive for so little effectiveness.
In PvZ, we get Stalkers because they're the only unit with decent range that can hit BLs, and because they out-range Roaches. Stalkers still lose in a straight up engagement with basically anything because they have horrible DPS. Yes, Stalkers beat Mutalisks, but Stalkers aren't a good counter to Mutalisks because while you can make 20 Mutalisks and run them all over the place, I can't just keep 20 Stalkers in my base because they're never actually kill the Mutalisk ball. They'll force it to go away, yeah, but that's not a problem for the Zerg player since he just needs to keep me in my base.
I don't think you understand how Protoss works in general. We are certainly not "fine" as a race, either. One of our matchups is almost exclusively 2base all-inning. How's that fine?
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On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks.
LOL i'm not even sure if there is a point in me addressing every single useless point you made since i can essentially answer all of them with the same response.
It doesn't matter if it's a stalker or not, the unit is irrelevant the reason why protoss survives early-mid game is because of sentries and forcefields. Not because we have a million stalkers it's because the near bulk of our army is ranged and we can section it off so that our army is significantly stronger than the sectioned off army making fights very cost efficient. Again it's not the huge ball of stalkers doing the work trust me, any ranged unit will work in its place.
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On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks.
Stalkers do get raped by mutalisks. That's the very reason that without storm or archons we instantly lose vs mass muta. The stalker is a buffer unit, the reasons it is made is because it can hit air and it has a relatively large amount of health. You'll often find late game armies replacing stalkers with archons when the protoss is floating gas as archons have more dps, hit air and have a large amount of health (also have splash too).
Why are mid game pushes so strong? Sentires, collossi or immortals. The stalker is a terrible unit surrounded by great units which compliment them, which basically make stalkers not bad when surrounded by these other units.
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On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks.
Stalkers can get messed up my mutas, since they both do around the same damage to eachother, with a muta doing 9 damage and a stalker doing 10. Sakagami is not make the correct argument as to why they get messed up though. The reason is that the protoss use them to protect serveral parts of their base against mutas, which travel in a large ball. This means that the mutas rarely(if used well) fight equal numbers of stalkers. The mutas are almost always being directly controled as well, which means they will like get to focus down a stalker or two before the protoss player can get his units to focus fire. I don't think stalkers are bad, but using them against mutas is one of the harsher lessons you need to learn when playing protoss and leads to a lot of dumb losses.
I think a lot of protoss feel the way about stalkers as zerg players feel about zerglings. Both seem amazing if your not using them and very powerful when used correctly. However, when you are using them, all of their flaws quickly become apparent and you become acutely aware of all the horrible ways these units could die. Personally, that is how I judge if a use is close to balanced. If the person using it thinks it is a terrible unit they are forced to build, but his opponent thinks the unit is amazing to the point of being to good.
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On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush!
Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out.
I like this ^_^
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On July 10 2012 02:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. Stalkers can get messed up my mutas, since they both do around the same damage to eachother, with a muta doing 9 damage and a stalker doing 10. Sakagami is not make the correct argument as to why they get messed up though. The reason is that the protoss use them to protect serveral parts of their base against mutas, which travel in a large ball. This means that the mutas rarely(if used well) fight equal numbers of stalkers. The mutas are almost always being directly controled as well, which means they will like get to focus down a stalker or two before the protoss player can get his units to focus fire. I don't think stalkers are bad, but using them against mutas is one of the harsher lessons you need to learn when playing protoss and leads to a lot of dumb losses. I think a lot of protoss feel the way about stalkers as zerg players feel about zerglings. Both seem amazing if your not using them and very powerful when used correctly. However, when you are using them, all of their flaws quickly become apparent and you become acutely aware of all the horrible ways these units could die. Personally, that is how I judge if a use is close to balanced. If the person using it thinks it is a terrible unit they are forced to build, but his opponent thinks the unit is amazing to the point of being to good.
More like the initial hit does almost the same damage (9 vs 10). Then you factor in that the muta's attack bounces so it's doing way more than 9 dmg.
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On July 10 2012 02:30 Sakagami wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. LOL i'm not even sure if there is a point in me addressing every single useless point you made since i can essentially answer all of them with the same response. It doesn't matter if it's a stalker or not, the unit is irrelevant the reason why protoss survives early-mid game is because of sentries and forcefields. Not because we have a million stalkers it's because the near bulk of our army is ranged and we can section it off so that our army is significantly stronger than the sectioned off army making fights very cost efficient. Again it's not the huge ball of stalkers doing the work trust me, any ranged unit will work in its place.
And that's exactly why Stalkers are as weak as they are. The Protoss have other things that combo well with the relatively weak Stalker, this increasing its effectiveness to reasonable levels. That's why buffing the Stalker is a bad idea; you'll just make the existing synergy that much stronger.
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On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE.
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On July 10 2012 02:38 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:30 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. LOL i'm not even sure if there is a point in me addressing every single useless point you made since i can essentially answer all of them with the same response. It doesn't matter if it's a stalker or not, the unit is irrelevant the reason why protoss survives early-mid game is because of sentries and forcefields. Not because we have a million stalkers it's because the near bulk of our army is ranged and we can section it off so that our army is significantly stronger than the sectioned off army making fights very cost efficient. Again it's not the huge ball of stalkers doing the work trust me, any ranged unit will work in its place. And that's exactly why Stalkers are as weak as they are. The Protoss have other things that combo well with the relatively weak Stalker, this increasing its effectiveness to reasonable levels. That's why buffing the Stalker is a bad idea; you'll just make the existing synergy that much stronger. The problem with this line of argument is that every race has things that combo just as well if not better than Stalker/X. MMM is hands down the best synergy in the game. Infestor/anything is definitely a better synergy than any Protoss pairing. It's not like Protoss is this magical synergy race with weak individual units that own together. Every race benefits from a well-rounded composition. Why do you think BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Spine is so feared? It's not because of any one part, per se, but because the combination is unstoppable.
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On July 10 2012 02:38 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:30 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. LOL i'm not even sure if there is a point in me addressing every single useless point you made since i can essentially answer all of them with the same response. It doesn't matter if it's a stalker or not, the unit is irrelevant the reason why protoss survives early-mid game is because of sentries and forcefields. Not because we have a million stalkers it's because the near bulk of our army is ranged and we can section it off so that our army is significantly stronger than the sectioned off army making fights very cost efficient. Again it's not the huge ball of stalkers doing the work trust me, any ranged unit will work in its place. And that's exactly why Stalkers are as weak as they are. The Protoss have other things that combo well with the relatively weak Stalker, this increasing its effectiveness to reasonable levels. That's why buffing the Stalker is a bad idea; you'll just make the existing synergy that much stronger.
It's also what makes the entire protoss race so fragile. Losing sentries which are the only things keeping you alive early/mid game is stupid as hell if you play protoss. Losing a sentry is like the equivalent to you losing 10 probes in damage. Feel free to remove the sentry and give us REAL units.
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On July 10 2012 02:41 Sakagami wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:38 NicolBolas wrote:On July 10 2012 02:30 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. LOL i'm not even sure if there is a point in me addressing every single useless point you made since i can essentially answer all of them with the same response. It doesn't matter if it's a stalker or not, the unit is irrelevant the reason why protoss survives early-mid game is because of sentries and forcefields. Not because we have a million stalkers it's because the near bulk of our army is ranged and we can section it off so that our army is significantly stronger than the sectioned off army making fights very cost efficient. Again it's not the huge ball of stalkers doing the work trust me, any ranged unit will work in its place. And that's exactly why Stalkers are as weak as they are. The Protoss have other things that combo well with the relatively weak Stalker, this increasing its effectiveness to reasonable levels. That's why buffing the Stalker is a bad idea; you'll just make the existing synergy that much stronger. It's also what makes the entire protoss race so fragile. Losing sentries which are the only things keeping you alive early/mid game is stupid as hell if you play protoss. Losing a sentry is like the equivalent to you losing 10 probes in damage. Feel free to remove the sentry and give us REAL units.
No, we protoss would like to keep our sentries, they win us games. Same with stalkers and zealots. You should play a different race if you want "better units". Other people seem to have no problem keeping their key units alive.
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66 dmg vs massive and 22 range, how can that be bad? strongest new unit for toss, we can now kill broodlords in lategame pvz, also it will be able to stop colossus wars in pvp
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On July 10 2012 02:47 aiseiplo. wrote: 66 dmg vs massive and 22 range, how can that be bad? strongest new unit for toss, we can now kill broodlords in lategame pvz
They cost 300/300, take a year to fire and come out of a stargate. Late game they could be awesome and I like that Blizzard is adding in some crazy units. We will have to see them in action, but everyone seems to be getting a little of what they need.
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On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE. How dare they give zerg a similar rush to protoss. How dare they patch immediately before it even comes out!! Zerg should always be on defensive until after 12 minutes or else we.. wouldn't be able to complain about infestor/bl!
Come on, make any units at all and you can kill a spine rush. It's a cute cheesy strat for unprepared players that, if defended, leaves Zerg behind. Just like cannon rushing.
To the stupid stalker discussion: Please stop theorycrafting so damn hard. "1 Stalkers dps is less than a medivacs healz! underpowered!" Well obviously if you're attacking into a theorycrafting bubble, anything can sound bad.
Chances are you'll have more than a single stalker so chances are your example sucks. Leave this discussino for the dedicated balance discussion thread if you must discuss it. This is for theorycrafting (lol) unreleased features.
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On July 10 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:41 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:38 NicolBolas wrote:On July 10 2012 02:30 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 01:55 Sakagami wrote: Am i the only one that's significantly bothered by the fact that the battle hellion essentially has the same stats as the stalker. Also the fact that the war hound costs 25 more gas than the stalker and is essentially better in EVERY way except it can't hit air???? almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. LOL i'm not even sure if there is a point in me addressing every single useless point you made since i can essentially answer all of them with the same response. It doesn't matter if it's a stalker or not, the unit is irrelevant the reason why protoss survives early-mid game is because of sentries and forcefields. Not because we have a million stalkers it's because the near bulk of our army is ranged and we can section it off so that our army is significantly stronger than the sectioned off army making fights very cost efficient. Again it's not the huge ball of stalkers doing the work trust me, any ranged unit will work in its place. And that's exactly why Stalkers are as weak as they are. The Protoss have other things that combo well with the relatively weak Stalker, this increasing its effectiveness to reasonable levels. That's why buffing the Stalker is a bad idea; you'll just make the existing synergy that much stronger. It's also what makes the entire protoss race so fragile. Losing sentries which are the only things keeping you alive early/mid game is stupid as hell if you play protoss. Losing a sentry is like the equivalent to you losing 10 probes in damage. Feel free to remove the sentry and give us REAL units. No, we protoss would like to keep our sentries, they win us games. Same with stalkers and zealots. You should play a different race if you want "better units". Other people seem to have no problem keeping their key units alive.
You... missed... the point.
I do think the worst part about stalkers is that you cant kite marines like you did in BW. Combined with the pathetic dps they really are the units you build when you have to.
Side ntoe: did anyone test if you can drop the mines from a medivac?
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On July 10 2012 02:53 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE. How dare they give zerg a similar rush to protoss. How dare they patch immediately before it even comes out!! Zerg should always be on defensive until after 12 minutes or else we.. wouldn't be able to complain about infestor/bl! Come on, make any units at all and you can kill a spine rush. It's a cute cheesy strat for unprepared players that, if defended, leaves Zerg behind. Just like cannon rushing.
To the stupid stalker discussion: Please stop theorycrafting so damn hard. "1 Stalkers dps is less than a medivacs healz! underpowered!" Well obviously if you're attacking into a theorycrafting bubble, anything can sound bad. Chances are you'll have more than a single stalker so chances are your example sucks. Leave this discussino for the dedicated balance discussion thread if you must discuss it. This is for theorycrafting (lol) unreleased features. You can (and do) defend a Cannon Rush off of standard play. Protoss won't have a Stalker for AGES off an FFE because we don't even have a Gateway, let alone a Cyber or Gas. Until I can pull Probes to defend against Overlords spitting Creep on my 17 food Nexus, it'd be overpowered. By a lot.
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On July 10 2012 02:53 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On July 10 2012 02:41 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:38 NicolBolas wrote:On July 10 2012 02:30 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:21 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:14 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 02:07 iky43210 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:03 Sakagami wrote:On July 10 2012 01:58 iky43210 wrote: [quote]
almost everything does more dps and is more cost-effective health wise than stalkers, doesn't prevent them from being very versatile and good in all matchups I definitely wouldn't say that they are very versatile and good in all match ups. Considering in most match ups you try to get away with making as few stalkers as possible unless you're blink all inning. If we had a a unit that was half decent and could hit air (not phoenix because they aren't really massable) i doubt anyone would use the stalker anymore. pretty sure PvZ is still getting a huge ball of stalkers with a few colossus and sentries added in, and PvT people still invest a heavy portion of their supplies in them, not even counting in the timing where mass nothing but stalkers is still very viable as long as you have a few zealots or immortals for bust Quite a ridiculous statement to make, people don't make stalkers to just hit air (well, they're still very good against air), stalkers is incredibly good in a protoss army as long as you can micro and have zealots/forcefields for tanking 1) Theres a reason why PvZ your base army is stalkers. Zealots can't hit air (brood lords) and they also get raped by fungals because they're melee. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. 2) PvT you get stalkers to kill vikings and medivacs essentially while your entire base is zealots. Furthermore you bust with basically all stalkers because you HAVE to forcefield bunkers which make zealots near useless depending on the scv placement. 3) Yeah stalkers are good against air, which is why they get raped by mutalisks a unit that's supposed to be bad in direct engagements. and yet Protoss as a race is still doing fairly well. stalkers must be a bad unit and should be buffed so protoss deathballs can become stronger than ever. There are even multiple timings where you make nothing but stalkers, you can't seriously think its a bad unit. the whole "im worried cause new units seem to be stronger or equal than stalkers" is total crap consider almost everything is already better than stalkers when looking at the stats. Yet protoss lives on with having 70% of the army in stalker values (early to mid) If stalkers are as bad as you suggested, then how are protoss early and mid game pushes so strong when their army is dominantly heavy in stalkers? or even late game? army synergy counts alot more than just the units themselves. A few zealots in a stalker ball or sentries in early game drastically improve their effectiveness and colossus/chargelot/templars for late In PvT main reason you make stalkers is not only for air, but also actually being able to hit marauder and marines while your zealot is getting kited. Unless you plan to sit at base with sentries, you won't be able to push out any mid game pressure without stalkers. Most early midgame protoss push have a huge stalker force with 2-3 sentries and 3 zealots at the front. p.s stalkers don't get raped by mutalisks. LOL i'm not even sure if there is a point in me addressing every single useless point you made since i can essentially answer all of them with the same response. It doesn't matter if it's a stalker or not, the unit is irrelevant the reason why protoss survives early-mid game is because of sentries and forcefields. Not because we have a million stalkers it's because the near bulk of our army is ranged and we can section it off so that our army is significantly stronger than the sectioned off army making fights very cost efficient. Again it's not the huge ball of stalkers doing the work trust me, any ranged unit will work in its place. And that's exactly why Stalkers are as weak as they are. The Protoss have other things that combo well with the relatively weak Stalker, this increasing its effectiveness to reasonable levels. That's why buffing the Stalker is a bad idea; you'll just make the existing synergy that much stronger. It's also what makes the entire protoss race so fragile. Losing sentries which are the only things keeping you alive early/mid game is stupid as hell if you play protoss. Losing a sentry is like the equivalent to you losing 10 probes in damage. Feel free to remove the sentry and give us REAL units. No, we protoss would like to keep our sentries, they win us games. Same with stalkers and zealots. You should play a different race if you want "better units". Other people seem to have no problem keeping their key units alive. You... missed... the point. I do think the worst part about stalkers is that you cant kite marines like you did in BW. Combined with the pathetic dps they really are the units you build when you have to. Side ntoe: did anyone test if you can drop the mines from a medivac?
No I totally got the point, I just did not feel it was very good. The entire protoss army has always been better than the sum of its parts and stalkers are great at what they do. People should not over build them, but they are great when used correctly. And I have no problem kiting marines before they have stim. There is nothing more awesome than cutting down a group of pre-stim marines who were out on the map when they should not have been.
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On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE.
Removing the viability of an outdated opener is not imbalanced by any means, and if this change goes through, it would very specifically mean the death of FFE.
That is no different from the death of BBS, 4 gate, or 5 rax reaper, all of which have had a positive impact on the viewability and viability of SC2 as an eSport.
The question is not whether denying the nexus is imba, Protoss still has other openers.
The question is whether FFE is good for the game. Judging from the current state of PvZ, I'd argue that is likely a no.
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On July 10 2012 02:57 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:53 Probe1 wrote:On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE. How dare they give zerg a similar rush to protoss. How dare they patch immediately before it even comes out!! Zerg should always be on defensive until after 12 minutes or else we.. wouldn't be able to complain about infestor/bl! Come on, make any units at all and you can kill a spine rush. It's a cute cheesy strat for unprepared players that, if defended, leaves Zerg behind. Just like cannon rushing.
To the stupid stalker discussion: Please stop theorycrafting so damn hard. "1 Stalkers dps is less than a medivacs healz! underpowered!" Well obviously if you're attacking into a theorycrafting bubble, anything can sound bad. Chances are you'll have more than a single stalker so chances are your example sucks. Leave this discussino for the dedicated balance discussion thread if you must discuss it. This is for theorycrafting (lol) unreleased features. You can (and do) defend a Cannon Rush off of standard play. Protoss won't have a Stalker for AGES off an FFE because we don't even have a Gateway, let alone a Cyber or Gas. Until I can pull Probes to defend against Overlords spitting Creep on my 17 food Nexus, it'd be overpowered. By a lot.
I remember an "Inside the Game" where somone asked Idra if moving creep droping to pre-lair would be a good idea. Idra thought it would be overpowered because the zerg would be able to block buildings and mess up builds to easily. I feel safe in saying that any change to zerg that Idra feels would be overpowered is not a good idea in any way.
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On July 10 2012 03:00 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE. Removing the viability of an outdated opener is not imbalanced by any means, and if this change goes through, it would very specifically mean the death of FFE. That is no different from the death of BBS, 4 gate, or 5 rax reaper, all of which have had a positive impact on the viewability and viability of SC2 as an eSport. The question is not whether denying the nexus is imba, Protoss still has other openers. The question is whether FFE is good for the game. Judging from the current state of PvZ, I'd argue that is likely a no. The current state of PvZ is 2base all-inning. Removing FFE would just make our 2base all-ins worse, if anything. It still wouldn't give us an answer to lategame Zerg, which is the fundamental problem with the matchup.
This is like suggesting we remove 3base Roach from the game because it's boring. That's not the way this game works.
Protoss has no other consistently viable openers than FFE, which is why virtually no professional Protoss players do anything but FFE. Trust me, if there were a way to play macro PvZ that was better than FFE, top Koreans (other than Seed) would be using it, because nobody likes having to Immortal/Sentry all-in every single game.
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On July 10 2012 03:00 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE. Removing the viability of an outdated opener is not imbalanced by any means, and if this change goes through, it would very specifically mean the death of FFE. That is no different from the death of BBS, 4 gate, or 5 rax reaper, all of which have had a positive impact on the viewability and viability of SC2 as an eSport. The question is not whether denying the nexus is imba, Protoss still has other openers. The question is whether FFE is good for the game. Judging from the current state of PvZ, I'd argue that is likely a no.
I think the only thing bad about FFE is that it is really the only build we see PvZ because it is the fastest, safest way to get to 2 base and go into the mid game strong vs zerg.
As for the stalker, the fact that it has the ability to learn blink, a big boost in the unit's strength, mobility and harass potential (provided proper micro ofc) makes it so it has to be balanced like a mutalisk, weak in direct conflict due to mobility and harass potential, but then the problem with the stalker is that they have to research blink before being a strong unit.
I had thoughts of making the stalker higher DPS/more robust to fit into the army better and have another unit with blink designed for map control/harassment.
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On July 10 2012 03:11 Phoobie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:00 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE. Removing the viability of an outdated opener is not imbalanced by any means, and if this change goes through, it would very specifically mean the death of FFE. That is no different from the death of BBS, 4 gate, or 5 rax reaper, all of which have had a positive impact on the viewability and viability of SC2 as an eSport. The question is not whether denying the nexus is imba, Protoss still has other openers. The question is whether FFE is good for the game. Judging from the current state of PvZ, I'd argue that is likely a no. I think the only thing bad about FFE is that it is really the only build we see PvZ because it is the fastest, safest way to get to 2 base and go into the mid game strong vs zerg. As for the stalker, the fact that it has the ability to learn blink, a big boost in the unit's strength, mobility and harass potential (provided proper micro ofc) makes it so it has to be balanced like a mutalisk, weak in direct conflict due to mobility and harass potential, but then the problem with the stalker is that they have to research blink before being a strong unit. I had thoughts of making the stalker higher DPS/more robust to fit into the army better and have another unit with blink designed for map control/harassment. I say you can easily open with 1 gate expand, especially in HotS you get mothershipcore which would solve all the problems with all ins zerg can throw at your 1 gate expand.
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On July 10 2012 03:16 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:11 Phoobie wrote:On July 10 2012 03:00 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:38 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 02:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 02:13 Probe1 wrote:On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous. I'll see your cannon rush and raise you overlord rush! Wow... This is actually pretty huge... I can already theorycraft denying a natural nexus off a FFE until at least your first stalker comes out. I like this ^_^ I hope you realize that if this were possible, it would be hideously imbalanced and would need to be patched out. It's not like Protoss gets a super early Nexus off an FFE. Removing the viability of an outdated opener is not imbalanced by any means, and if this change goes through, it would very specifically mean the death of FFE. That is no different from the death of BBS, 4 gate, or 5 rax reaper, all of which have had a positive impact on the viewability and viability of SC2 as an eSport. The question is not whether denying the nexus is imba, Protoss still has other openers. The question is whether FFE is good for the game. Judging from the current state of PvZ, I'd argue that is likely a no. I think the only thing bad about FFE is that it is really the only build we see PvZ because it is the fastest, safest way to get to 2 base and go into the mid game strong vs zerg. As for the stalker, the fact that it has the ability to learn blink, a big boost in the unit's strength, mobility and harass potential (provided proper micro ofc) makes it so it has to be balanced like a mutalisk, weak in direct conflict due to mobility and harass potential, but then the problem with the stalker is that they have to research blink before being a strong unit. I had thoughts of making the stalker higher DPS/more robust to fit into the army better and have another unit with blink designed for map control/harassment. I say you can easily open with 1 gate expand, especially in HotS you get mothershipcore which would solve all the problems with all ins zerg can throw at your 1 gate expand.
For 20 seconds, until the power wears off and more zerglings rushing in and you have one more zealot. If anything, the MScore will allow protoss to skimp on cannons if they want to rely on the super cannon for defense. FFE is not going anywhere.
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At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because with this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in.
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On July 10 2012 03:20 Darneck wrote: At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in.
Depends on the map? I think we can accept that prelair creep drop is a terrible idea. As I stated above, even Idra thought it would be overpowered. What is it with people and their dislike for fast expand builds? Can I request a change that makes a super pylon that rebuilds itself and allows me to block hatchs for as long as I am willing to spend the money?
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On July 10 2012 03:20 Darneck wrote: At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in.
Exactly the point.
If Ovie creep is moved to the evo chamber, 100 different holes get opened up in FFE. The build is effectively dead.
Personally, I have never been much of a FFE fan, it seems cheap and lazy, but its so damn powerful that nobody really found a way to truly make 1 gate expos work. I personally think gateway openers are much stronger due to their ability to defend, tech, and attack all at the same time, but that has no relevance to this argument.
I hope FFE dies, I am sure gateway expand openers are significantly more powerful, especially with the mscore being added.
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On July 10 2012 03:20 Darneck wrote: At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in. On 2 player maps or close air maps, overlords reach your base really early. Only expansion which could be done before your overlord reaches your base is probably nexus first and I'm still not sure of it, depends on the map. If that change applies and zerg start denying expansions with creep, you'll have to go 1 gate, then cyber and chrono out a stalker to expand.
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are they seriously STILL contemplating adding a worse version of the carrier rather than just fixing it? i mean theyre fixing mothership why not fix the protoss best unit.... come on -_- this isn't rocket science this is fucking carriers
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On July 10 2012 03:24 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:20 Darneck wrote: At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in. Exactly the point. If Ovie creep is moved to the evo chamber, 100 different holes get opened up in FFE. The build is effectively dead. Personally, I have never been much of a FFE fan, it seems cheap and lazy, but its so damn powerful that nobody really found a way to truly make 1 gate expos work. I personally think gateway openers are much stronger due to their ability to defend, tech, and attack all at the same time, but that has no relevance to this argument. I hope FFE dies, I am sure gateway expand openers are significantly more powerful, especially with the mscore being added. Gateway expands were the norm for a long time. They are worse. The Zerg can just take a slightly later third, open Speedling expand, and still be ahead economically because the Protoss pressure is very limited on today's large maps. You can't waltz a bunch of Sentries across Condemned Ridge.
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On July 10 2012 03:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:20 Darneck wrote: At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in. Exactly the point. If Ovie creep is moved to the evo chamber, 100 different holes get opened up in FFE. The build is effectively dead. Personally, I have never been much of a FFE fan, it seems cheap and lazy, but its so damn powerful that nobody really found a way to truly make 1 gate expos work. I personally think gateway openers are much stronger due to their ability to defend, tech, and attack all at the same time, but that has no relevance to this argument. I hope FFE dies, I am sure gateway expand openers are significantly more powerful, especially with the mscore being added. Gateway expands were the norm for a long time. They are worse. The Zerg can just take a slightly later third, open Speedling expand, and still be ahead economically because the Protoss pressure is very limited on today's large maps. You can't waltz a bunch of Sentries across Condemned Ridge.
Agreed, FFE is fine and the standard for the match up. I don't understand why people want gateway openings instead. It is not like the zerg 3 hatch openings involve a lot of things that arn't drones.
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On July 10 2012 03:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:31 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:20 Darneck wrote: At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in. Exactly the point. If Ovie creep is moved to the evo chamber, 100 different holes get opened up in FFE. The build is effectively dead. Personally, I have never been much of a FFE fan, it seems cheap and lazy, but its so damn powerful that nobody really found a way to truly make 1 gate expos work. I personally think gateway openers are much stronger due to their ability to defend, tech, and attack all at the same time, but that has no relevance to this argument. I hope FFE dies, I am sure gateway expand openers are significantly more powerful, especially with the mscore being added. Gateway expands were the norm for a long time. They are worse. The Zerg can just take a slightly later third, open Speedling expand, and still be ahead economically because the Protoss pressure is very limited on today's large maps. You can't waltz a bunch of Sentries across Condemned Ridge. Agreed, FFE is fine and the standard for the match up. I don't understand why people want gateway openings instead. It is not like the zerg 3 hatch openings involve a lot of things that arn't drones.
Reactor hellion expand was the standart for TvZ for a year, Blizzard show that they don't care about changing this kind of thing.
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On July 10 2012 03:41 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:34 Plansix wrote:On July 10 2012 03:31 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:20 Darneck wrote: At what time does the overlord reach the base of the protoss now?
Denying the nexus would be overpowered enough in my opinion but that wouldn't even be necessary because this you can just drop creep where the wall would be instead and prevent it for long enough to get lots of zerglings in. Exactly the point. If Ovie creep is moved to the evo chamber, 100 different holes get opened up in FFE. The build is effectively dead. Personally, I have never been much of a FFE fan, it seems cheap and lazy, but its so damn powerful that nobody really found a way to truly make 1 gate expos work. I personally think gateway openers are much stronger due to their ability to defend, tech, and attack all at the same time, but that has no relevance to this argument. I hope FFE dies, I am sure gateway expand openers are significantly more powerful, especially with the mscore being added. Gateway expands were the norm for a long time. They are worse. The Zerg can just take a slightly later third, open Speedling expand, and still be ahead economically because the Protoss pressure is very limited on today's large maps. You can't waltz a bunch of Sentries across Condemned Ridge. Agreed, FFE is fine and the standard for the match up. I don't understand why people want gateway openings instead. It is not like the zerg 3 hatch openings involve a lot of things that arn't drones. Reactor hellion expand was the standart for TvZ for a year, Blizzard show that they don't care about changing this kind of thing. You think TvZ is bad right now? I agree. But it's nothing compared to how fucking horrible PvZ would be if FFE was suddenly made non-viable.
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I hope Ultralisk burrow doesn't make it through. Zerg is already way good late game, and Ultras are really good in TvZ. The Ultra probably should be tweaked, but imo the upgrade is overkill and will give zerg an even bigger advantage late game where they don't need it.
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My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership. Sometimes Protoss decides to shake things up and just skip thr midgame action entirely, subjecting us to an additional 10 minutes of straight macro.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable way to deal with Force Field in the early game and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides.
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On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses.
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On July 10 2012 03:44 happyness wrote: I hope Ultralisk burrow doesn't make it through. Zerg is already way good late game, and Ultras are really good in TvZ. The Ultra probably should be tweaked, but imo the upgrade is overkill and will give zerg an even bigger advantage late game where they don't need it.
Because we can possibly know what late game will be like in HotS with all the new units added right?
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On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses.
The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd.
Again, more scrappy = more better.
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On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss
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On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. It just means Zerg can Speedling expand. From there, he's perfectly safe against anything and can stop the Protoss from 1gate expanding. This means that the Protoss needs to DT expand, Stargate expand, or 3gate expand off one 1 base. The second the Protoss gets his Nexus down, the Zerg can take his third, and many times he'll be able to do so earlier. There is no way Protoss is going to be able to put pressure and expand against a Speedling expand without teching to Stargate/DTs, both of which are extremely pricey off of one base. Hell, they're pricey off of 2 bases.
Again: Protoss professionals stopped doing Gateway expands for a reason. There's a lovely post about it in the strategy section that I can't find, but it's basically to the effect that they're worse than FFE, because the minute tech advantage isn't worth the massive economic disadvantage. The only way Gateway expands work right now is against Zerg players that fail to scout and assume that you're FFEing.
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On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss
Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it.
I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust.
The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid.
Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing.
Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then.
As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ.
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On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. So it's basically TvZ, except Protoss doesn't have the same mobility/early game cost efficiency that Terran does. We need to expand because all of our units are so gas heavy. We can't just reactor a few Hellions and take map control. Besides, didn't you see what happened to TvZ? Blizzard doesn't like 1 vs 2 base, and apparently neither do Zerg players.
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On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. How does it make both sides fight for every inch of the game? Zerg has learnt how to deal with it easily except for a few unscouted 1 base all-ins perhaps. This would be nothing but a nerf and there's not really much to argue about it, FFE is proven to be the better option which would equal in a nerf if it was removed and it would also end up being the same old dance and song every other PvZ with a 1 gate expand instead of FFE.
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On July 10 2012 04:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. So it's basically TvZ, except Protoss doesn't have the same mobility/early game cost efficiency that Terran does. We need to expand because all of our units are so gas heavy. We can't just reactor a few Hellions and take map control. Besides, didn't you see what happened to TvZ? Blizzard doesn't like 1 vs 2 base, and apparently neither do Zerg players.
Sure, prepatch ZvT was a beautiful MU. Anything that makes more matches like that, I am happy with. Post-patch is kinda a train wreck though... It would seem ZvT has moved closer to ZvP where we just skip the early game now. I can see why they made the change, but its a loss overall I think.
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On July 10 2012 04:26 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:16 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. So it's basically TvZ, except Protoss doesn't have the same mobility/early game cost efficiency that Terran does. We need to expand because all of our units are so gas heavy. We can't just reactor a few Hellions and take map control. Besides, didn't you see what happened to TvZ? Blizzard doesn't like 1 vs 2 base, and apparently neither do Zerg players. Sure, prepatch ZvT was a beautiful MU. Anything that makes more matches like that, I am happy with. Post-patch is kinda a train wreck though... It would seem ZvT has moved closer to ZvP where we just skip the early game now. I can see why they made the change, but its a loss overall I think. Yes, but if you want to make PvZ interesting again, you need to give Protoss something non-allin and reliable which the Zerg has to react to. I'm sick of watching professional Protoss players move from +1 4gates to Stargate to whatever just to be even with the Zerg. Give me something risk-free and fair, like the Hellion opener pre-patch, that puts me on even footing with Zergs, and I'll gladly play whatever style is available.
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On July 10 2012 04:28 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:26 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 04:16 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. So it's basically TvZ, except Protoss doesn't have the same mobility/early game cost efficiency that Terran does. We need to expand because all of our units are so gas heavy. We can't just reactor a few Hellions and take map control. Besides, didn't you see what happened to TvZ? Blizzard doesn't like 1 vs 2 base, and apparently neither do Zerg players. Sure, prepatch ZvT was a beautiful MU. Anything that makes more matches like that, I am happy with. Post-patch is kinda a train wreck though... It would seem ZvT has moved closer to ZvP where we just skip the early game now. I can see why they made the change, but its a loss overall I think. Yes, but if you want to make PvZ interesting again, you need to give Protoss something non-allin and reliable which the Zerg has to react to. I'm sick of watching professional Protoss players move from +1 4gates to Stargate to whatever just to be even with the Zerg. Give me something risk-free and fair, like the Hellion opener pre-patch, that puts me on even footing with Zergs, and I'll gladly play whatever style is available.
Which is where the Oracle comes in...
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On July 10 2012 04:32 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:28 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:26 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 04:16 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. So it's basically TvZ, except Protoss doesn't have the same mobility/early game cost efficiency that Terran does. We need to expand because all of our units are so gas heavy. We can't just reactor a few Hellions and take map control. Besides, didn't you see what happened to TvZ? Blizzard doesn't like 1 vs 2 base, and apparently neither do Zerg players. Sure, prepatch ZvT was a beautiful MU. Anything that makes more matches like that, I am happy with. Post-patch is kinda a train wreck though... It would seem ZvT has moved closer to ZvP where we just skip the early game now. I can see why they made the change, but its a loss overall I think. Yes, but if you want to make PvZ interesting again, you need to give Protoss something non-allin and reliable which the Zerg has to react to. I'm sick of watching professional Protoss players move from +1 4gates to Stargate to whatever just to be even with the Zerg. Give me something risk-free and fair, like the Hellion opener pre-patch, that puts me on even footing with Zergs, and I'll gladly play whatever style is available. Which is where the Oracle comes in... Except the Oracle isn't something you can just go for on 1 base because it costs a lot of gas. The reason Hellion openers were good is because you could swap the Reactor, get only 1 gas, expand simultaneously, and because you needed the Factory anyway.
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I must be the only one who thinks the tempest is a great unit. It gives a straight forward option against broodlords. It's a flying, more powerful, longer range siege tank that can attack air.
It's the kind of units that FORCES your opponnent to throw themselves into a toss deathball.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
The current problem is that there is NO POINT in fighting in the mid-map for whatever, towers or something, if you want to take something (assuming both players macroed at the same level), like an expansion, just a-move the entire force there and the other side HAS to back off or they will be in a lot of trouble. Neither race can simply attack anything.
Zerg can't deal with Force Fields. Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks Protoss can't break the Zerg's economy and reinforcements if they are attacking. Protoss can't deal with Marauders+shitload of Marines and they don't have AoE until T3 or T2 with upgrades (which is impossible to pull off off of 1base). Terran can't simply waltz across creep. Terran is the only race in TvP where they can actually do something in the early-game. (aside from Protoss 3gate pressure, but it can severely backfire) (assuming neither side allins)
I hate to play the game at the moment as when I enter a game I scout what my enemy is doing and go "oh, it's a macro game, ok, let me get into the mindset of getting to Hive tech asap, get shitloads of bases without dying and then a-move". I hate that, but guess what, unless I am all-in, I cannot attack the Terran/Protoss. I even asked pro-players how to play an aggressive Zerg besides Muta play and a lucky run-by, they all replied the same way "go all-in".
And to the person that cries about Ultralisks. Ultralisks are god-awful units at the moment, most of players/commentators consider them as Tier 2.5, as they are just horrible, they clump up, most of them die before even getting a single hit off and they take space for Zerglings and other Ultras. But so many Zerg players want to start play the Zerg race again, not some slow grim reaper force called Brood Lords. It is so annoying to get chopped to death slowly by either Terran or Protoss when you're at 10+ Brood Lords, many pro-games ended like that, and that's the only time the game becomes interesting to actually watch.
But, we cannot simply cry over everything, it is what it is. Some adjustments will be made, I just hope Blizzard does not have the same policy with Starcraft II patches as they do with WoW (changing something every 6-8 months) as that would be horrible.
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On July 10 2012 04:44 Thenerf wrote: I must be the only one who thinks the tempest is a great unit. It gives a straight forward option against broodlords. It's a flying, more powerful, longer range siege tank that can attack air.
It's the kind of units that FORCES your opponnent to throw themselves into a toss deathball. Sort of. Unfortunately you'll need about 3 of them to start doing serious damage to BLs, and that sets you back 1k gas + the upgrade + build time, so it's hard to make the transition, much like Carriers.
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On July 10 2012 04:32 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:28 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:26 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 04:16 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. So it's basically TvZ, except Protoss doesn't have the same mobility/early game cost efficiency that Terran does. We need to expand because all of our units are so gas heavy. We can't just reactor a few Hellions and take map control. Besides, didn't you see what happened to TvZ? Blizzard doesn't like 1 vs 2 base, and apparently neither do Zerg players. Sure, prepatch ZvT was a beautiful MU. Anything that makes more matches like that, I am happy with. Post-patch is kinda a train wreck though... It would seem ZvT has moved closer to ZvP where we just skip the early game now. I can see why they made the change, but its a loss overall I think. Yes, but if you want to make PvZ interesting again, you need to give Protoss something non-allin and reliable which the Zerg has to react to. I'm sick of watching professional Protoss players move from +1 4gates to Stargate to whatever just to be even with the Zerg. Give me something risk-free and fair, like the Hellion opener pre-patch, that puts me on even footing with Zergs, and I'll gladly play whatever style is available. Which is where the Oracle comes in...
The Oracle suffers from the same problem Stargate openings suffer from currently in PvZ - it does not have enough combat utility to hold a third base against a dedicated all-in. You can do a bunch of cutesy harassment, but it doesn't mean a whole lot if it doesn't afford you map control and you're still on two bases against a three (possibly four) base Zerg.
The reason PvZ works the way it does is not because of FFE being viable, but because there's no way for Protoss to gain map control in the midgame, while also being forced to either expand or all-in due to larvae mechanics. In BW Zerg would have a lot less workers on their three bases, which allowed the Protoss to sit back in the midgame, and then take a third behind dedicated harassment or a big push. In SC2, this simply does not work, and there's also no incentive for Zerg to do anything as long as they're ahead on bases (which wasn't the case in BW).
In essence, you either need to slow down the Zerg economy (and buff their units), or you need to give Protoss a way to establish map control and pressure safely - like Hellions used to do. Stargate could be one way of accompishing this, but the Oracle is not what Protoss needs.
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On July 10 2012 05:04 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:32 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 04:28 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:26 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 04:16 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:53 Darneck wrote:On July 10 2012 03:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 10 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 03:45 Jermstuddog wrote: My argument has nothing to do with the viability of Zerg vs FFE, but the viewability of games involving the opener, they're boring as fuck. Macro for 10 minutes. Protoss does an allin, then Zerg does an allin, then 3462819374 spines all over the map, followed by a mothership.
There is virtually no action due to the fact that Zerg has no viable early gale options and if either side ever wins a fight, the game usually ends immediately. Instead, we get to watch two people macro their asses off with virtually no harassment going on either side and definitely no big army action.
The PvZ has a lot more problems than just BL. Force Fields, Blink Stalkers, Roaches, and Colossus all add to the whole "never attack until you just win" style that permeates throughout the MU.
Anything that makes the MU more scrappy is a big win imo. And that's what the death of FFE really means. Scrappy play on both sides. You can't just remove an opening from one side and say that makes the matchup more scrappy for both sides. Zerg can play as standard as they did before FFE was vogue. Protoss is the one that will need to be devising new timings every other week in order to stop the Zerg from Droning to 80, which is what PvZ is right now. Protoss is the side playing scrappily in a macro game, which is why we elect to all-in, because in a battle of scrappy vs safe/standard, scrappy loses. The 3 hatch opener is dependent on a no gas opener by Protoss, or Zerg risks outright dying. If P is getting gas before he expands, Z is getting gas before he takes his 3rd. This all opens up battles over Ps natural and Zs 3rd. Again, more scrappy = more better. What you're basically saying is, nerf protoss when they are in need of no nerf in PvZ just to make a match up more scrappy which somehow would make it better. It's nothing but a stupid nerf to protoss Call it whatever you want, if it makes the game more dynamic, I'm all for it. I don't foresee any speedling issues taking the current Protoss units and the addition of the mothership core into account. If it proves to be too costly, I'm sure Blizzard can adjust. The thing about PvZ is that pretty much every pro match is fast forwarding past all the parts of the game where you would be fighting for map control or whatever and just rushing straight toward endgame, which pretty much everybody on both sides would agree is stupid. Anything that opens up the MU for harassment, mid-map fighting and delaying that rush toward endgame deathballs is a good thing. Removing FFE doesn't just nerf Protoss and give Zerg the freedom to 3 base to victory every time, if it does, then Blizz can fix things then. As I see it, removing FFE makes the 1 base vs 2 base portion of the game a lot more important and makes both sides fight for every inch of the game. I currently love it when my opponent goes for gateway openers. Not because I get any kind of lead out of it, but because I know we aren't going to do the same old song and dance I see in every other PvZ. So it's basically TvZ, except Protoss doesn't have the same mobility/early game cost efficiency that Terran does. We need to expand because all of our units are so gas heavy. We can't just reactor a few Hellions and take map control. Besides, didn't you see what happened to TvZ? Blizzard doesn't like 1 vs 2 base, and apparently neither do Zerg players. Sure, prepatch ZvT was a beautiful MU. Anything that makes more matches like that, I am happy with. Post-patch is kinda a train wreck though... It would seem ZvT has moved closer to ZvP where we just skip the early game now. I can see why they made the change, but its a loss overall I think. Yes, but if you want to make PvZ interesting again, you need to give Protoss something non-allin and reliable which the Zerg has to react to. I'm sick of watching professional Protoss players move from +1 4gates to Stargate to whatever just to be even with the Zerg. Give me something risk-free and fair, like the Hellion opener pre-patch, that puts me on even footing with Zergs, and I'll gladly play whatever style is available. Which is where the Oracle comes in... The Oracle suffers from the same problem Stargate openings suffer from currently in PvZ - it does not have enough combat utility to hold a third base against a dedicated all-in. You can do a bunch of cutesy harassment, but it doesn't mean a whole lot if it doesn't afford you map control and you're still on two bases against a three (possibly four) base Zerg. The reason PvZ works the way it does is not because of FFE being viable, but because there's no way for Protoss to gain map control in the midgame, while also being forced to either expand or all-in due to larvae mechanics. In BW Zerg would have a lot less workers on their three bases, which allowed the Protoss to sit back in the midgame, and then take a third behind dedicated harassment or a big push. In SC2, this simply does not work, and there's also no incentive for Zerg to do anything as long as they're ahead on bases (which wasn't the case in BW). In essence, you either need to slow down the Zerg economy (and buff their units), or you need to give Protoss a way to establish map control and pressure safely - like Hellions used to do. Stargate could be one way of accompishing this, but the Oracle is not what Protoss needs.
invis shield will probably do a great job against all-ins
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On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now
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On July 10 2012 11:14 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now
1-7 minute Mark = Banling Bust
7-12 minute Mark = Roach Banling Bust
12minutes and onward = Brood Lords
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On July 10 2012 11:18 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 11:14 Sroobz wrote:On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now 1-7 minute Mark = Banling Bust 7-12 minute Mark = Roach Banling Bust 12minutes and onward = Brood Lords
I meant to say - I literally haven't seen zerg be UNABLE to break down the terran wall for more than a year now
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On July 10 2012 11:22 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 11:18 GinDo wrote:On July 10 2012 11:14 Sroobz wrote:On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now 1-7 minute Mark = Banling Bust 7-12 minute Mark = Roach Banling Bust 12minutes and onward = Brood Lords I meant to say - I literally haven't seen zerg be UNABLE to break down the terran wall for more than a year now  My Bad
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On July 10 2012 11:36 Scrubwave wrote: Reapers with 7 range, outranging both marines and marauders? Might be cool.
It's probably a typo, but damn if it isn't interesting..
Although, TvT would become 1 base. and TvZ... and probably TvP too.. actually... I'm kind of glad it's a typo.
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On July 10 2012 11:22 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 11:18 GinDo wrote:On July 10 2012 11:14 Sroobz wrote:On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now 1-7 minute Mark = Banling Bust 7-12 minute Mark = Roach Banling Bust 12minutes and onward = Brood Lords I meant to say - I literally haven't seen zerg be UNABLE to break down the terran wall for more than a year now 
it was a issue with zergs complaining beta/early sc2 about how the baneling was too expensive at 25 gas and that they were bad and refusing to use them except in one base baneling busts. -.- expensive huh. bad huh. look who gets made en masse now.
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I just wish protoss were getting a high DPS, low HP cheapish unit that could be made from the gateway something that can be used for harass and hold its own like marines. Not fancy gimmicky shit like the Tempest and Oracle.
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On July 10 2012 12:36 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 11:36 Scrubwave wrote: Reapers with 7 range, outranging both marines and marauders? Might be cool. It's probably a typo, but damn if it isn't interesting.. Although, TvT would become 1 base. and TvZ... and probably TvP too.. actually... I'm kind of glad it's a typo.
im pretty sure we would just see resurgance of reaper expand in every mu.
On July 10 2012 12:54 Ryder. wrote:I just wish protoss were getting a high DPS, low HP cheapish unit that could be made from the gateway  something that can be used for harass and hold its own like marines. Not fancy gimmicky shit like the Tempest and Oracle.
so you want terrans to QQ? toss already have plenty of aoe to hardcounter marines. Also harass, hold its own and cheapish unit doesnt make much sense.
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And to the person that cries about Ultralisks. Ultralisks are god-awful units at the moment, most of players/commentators consider them as Tier 2.5, as they are just horrible, they clump up, most of them die before even getting a single hit off and they take space for Zerglings and other Ultras. What the heck?
The whole reason you build Ultralisks is to tank Siege Tank and Marine shots, it doesn't matter if they die really quickly as long as the rest of the Zerg army gets in there and kills the Terran army, any remaining Ultralisks is a bonus.
They have a large unit size, which makes them far less vulnerable to splash damage. They just get in the way of other units if you attack in a choke or with 10 Ultralisks without spreading your army in a concave, which I guess is why Blizzard is adding Burrow-Charge, to appeal to the masses. I just hope it needs an upgrade and isn't too OP. :/
As for casters calling them 'useless', people used to build them by themselves without any real support, and would attack into huge siege lines with 10+ tanks without Infestors and things like that. It was just bad play, and it gave the Ultralisk the reputation of being the unit that people build when they want to lose a won game.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 10 2012 11:14 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now
Assuming you did not read the bottom brackets, this was the case if neither side allins. It was a sentiment regarding skirmishes. Not using 10 Banelings (50 minerals 25 gas for each) to break down a wall, since when you used 500 Minerals and 250 Gas just to open a path into somewhere in that early stages of the game, you NEED to do damage, which is impossible if the tanks are on the high ground.
On July 10 2012 17:22 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +And to the person that cries about Ultralisks. Ultralisks are god-awful units at the moment, most of players/commentators consider them as Tier 2.5, as they are just horrible, they clump up, most of them die before even getting a single hit off and they take space for Zerglings and other Ultras. What the heck? The whole reason you build Ultralisks is to tank Siege Tank and Marine shots, it doesn't matter if they die really quickly as long as the rest of the Zerg army gets in there and kills the Terran army, any remaining Ultralisks is a bonus. They have a large unit size, which makes them far less vulnerable to splash damage. They just get in the way of other units if you attack in a choke or with 10 Ultralisks without spreading your army in a concave, which I guess is why Blizzard is adding Burrow-Charge, to appeal to the masses. I just hope it needs an upgrade and isn't too OP. :/ As for casters calling them 'useless', people used to build them by themselves without any real support, and would attack into huge siege lines with 10+ tanks without Infestors and things like that. It was just bad play, and it gave the Ultralisk the reputation of being the unit that people build when they want to lose a won game.
They are just there to tank shots? Assuming you make 4 Ultralisks, that is 24 supply in just 4 Ultralisks, that could have been 48 Zerglings. There is a reason why everyone jokes about Ultralisks "when I want to lose, I just make Ultras", yes, that's how bad they are.
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ultralisks aren't bad, they haven't been for a while now since every map is huge with very open areas with multiple pathways
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On July 10 2012 17:35 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 11:14 Sroobz wrote:On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now Assuming you did not read the bottom brackets, this was the case if neither side allins. It was a sentiment regarding skirmishes. Not using 10 Banelings (50 minerals 25 gas for each) to break down a wall, since when you used 500 Minerals and 250 Gas just to open a path into somewhere in that early stages of the game, you NEED to do damage, which is impossible if the tanks are on the high ground. Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 17:22 Fencar wrote:And to the person that cries about Ultralisks. Ultralisks are god-awful units at the moment, most of players/commentators consider them as Tier 2.5, as they are just horrible, they clump up, most of them die before even getting a single hit off and they take space for Zerglings and other Ultras. What the heck? The whole reason you build Ultralisks is to tank Siege Tank and Marine shots, it doesn't matter if they die really quickly as long as the rest of the Zerg army gets in there and kills the Terran army, any remaining Ultralisks is a bonus. They have a large unit size, which makes them far less vulnerable to splash damage. They just get in the way of other units if you attack in a choke or with 10 Ultralisks without spreading your army in a concave, which I guess is why Blizzard is adding Burrow-Charge, to appeal to the masses. I just hope it needs an upgrade and isn't too OP. :/ As for casters calling them 'useless', people used to build them by themselves without any real support, and would attack into huge siege lines with 10+ tanks without Infestors and things like that. It was just bad play, and it gave the Ultralisk the reputation of being the unit that people build when they want to lose a won game. They are just there to tank shots? Assuming you make 4 Ultralisks, that is 24 supply in just 4 Ultralisks, that could have been 48 Zerglings. There is a reason why everyone jokes about Ultralisks "when I want to lose, I just make Ultras", yes, that's how bad they are.
WTF man. Ultra ling bling infestor runs over everything on the ground. Even more so on creep. If you wanna really be cute you can even bring queens and transfuse those ultras. They fit very well into the current ling, (bling) infestor style and are used very often. You should watch some current games.
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On July 10 2012 18:06 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 17:35 ysnake wrote:On July 10 2012 11:14 Sroobz wrote:On July 10 2012 04:48 ysnake wrote:
Zerg can't break down the Terran wall+Siege Tanks
...I literally haven't seen this for a year now Assuming you did not read the bottom brackets, this was the case if neither side allins. It was a sentiment regarding skirmishes. Not using 10 Banelings (50 minerals 25 gas for each) to break down a wall, since when you used 500 Minerals and 250 Gas just to open a path into somewhere in that early stages of the game, you NEED to do damage, which is impossible if the tanks are on the high ground. On July 10 2012 17:22 Fencar wrote:And to the person that cries about Ultralisks. Ultralisks are god-awful units at the moment, most of players/commentators consider them as Tier 2.5, as they are just horrible, they clump up, most of them die before even getting a single hit off and they take space for Zerglings and other Ultras. What the heck? The whole reason you build Ultralisks is to tank Siege Tank and Marine shots, it doesn't matter if they die really quickly as long as the rest of the Zerg army gets in there and kills the Terran army, any remaining Ultralisks is a bonus. They have a large unit size, which makes them far less vulnerable to splash damage. They just get in the way of other units if you attack in a choke or with 10 Ultralisks without spreading your army in a concave, which I guess is why Blizzard is adding Burrow-Charge, to appeal to the masses. I just hope it needs an upgrade and isn't too OP. :/ As for casters calling them 'useless', people used to build them by themselves without any real support, and would attack into huge siege lines with 10+ tanks without Infestors and things like that. It was just bad play, and it gave the Ultralisk the reputation of being the unit that people build when they want to lose a won game. They are just there to tank shots? Assuming you make 4 Ultralisks, that is 24 supply in just 4 Ultralisks, that could have been 48 Zerglings. There is a reason why everyone jokes about Ultralisks "when I want to lose, I just make Ultras", yes, that's how bad they are. WTF man. Ultra ling bling infestor runs over everything on the ground. Even more so on creep. If you wanna really be cute you can even bring queens and transfuse those ultras. They fit very well into the current ling, (bling) infestor style and are used very often. You should watch some current games.
Every Unit you listed there sucks against Archons/Templartech. And they are just a bit more efficient against MMM, not that much.
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No, don't you get it? Ultralisks are literally only for if you want to lose. That's why pro players frequently use them in late-game compositions, it's because they play to lose.
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On July 10 2012 18:23 Grumbels wrote: No, don't you get it? Ultralisks are literally only for if you want to lose. That's why pro players frequently use them in late-game compositions, it's because they play to lose.
Theyre use is situational, there is no master composition with ultras, what is weak for t3, they are only a weak stepping stone to not die to splashtech with lings. And they need gas units to trade efficient, gas units should trade efficient themselves or with support of more mineral focused units. But at the moment MMM with enough medivacs will kill you even when you have infestor. Because theyll heal over fungal. Also you should stop thinking in terms of WoL Balance and more in terms of HotS Balance, every race gets strong stuff you cant judge about hots balance atm.
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Well, yes you may lose a fight against terran with ling bling ultra infestor if you attack in a perfect defensive position and if you are not micoing and the terran micros perfectly. Therefore it is not a master composition. Your standards for a powerful army are somewhat exaggerated by the fact that blord infestor wins against everything if you do not make any big error.
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On July 10 2012 18:28 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 18:23 Grumbels wrote: No, don't you get it? Ultralisks are literally only for if you want to lose. That's why pro players frequently use them in late-game compositions, it's because they play to lose. Theyre use is situational, there is no master composition with ultras, what is weak for t3, they are only a weak stepping stone to not die to splashtech with lings. And they need gas units to trade efficient, gas units should trade efficient themselves or with support of more mineral focused units. But at the moment MMM with enough medivacs will kill you even when you have infestor. Because theyll heal over fungal. Also you should stop thinking in terms of WoL Balance and more in terms of HotS Balance, every race gets strong stuff you cant judge about hots balance atm.
marauders counter ultras, and guess what? mmm includes them, marauders also counters infestors, bio slipt counter infestors and ultras, banes, not to mention medivac heal counters fungal, so basicly ultra ling infestor bane is countered by mmm, ofcourse terran gonna win, when everything you make is countered. I guess zerg having to actually outplay terran, and not just have better army in general to a move and win is to much to ask from zerg?
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mmm in practice don't actually counters ultra/ling/infestors. At least not until after many many army trading battles and medivac counts get too high. Zerg have to fungal the medivacs and IT them down it'll never reach that point.
ultras murders marauders, you just have to add a few banelings in your composition to force terran to kite marines so the marines don't tank ultras for the marauders. It gets kind of difficult to micro marauders to focus on ultra when you have to kite banelings with marines and dodge fungals. most of the time your marauders is hitting useless crap like lings or something
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On July 10 2012 22:17 iky43210 wrote: mmm in practice don't actually counters ultra/ling/infestors. At least not until after many many army trading battles and medivac counts get too high. Zerg have to fungal the medivacs and IT them down it'll never reach that point.
ultras murders marauders, you just have to add a few banelings in your composition to force terran to kite marines so the marines don't tank ultras for the marauders. It gets kind of difficult to micro marauders to focus on ultra when you have to kite banelings with marines and dodge fungals. most of the time your marauders is hitting useless crap like lings or something
We've been seeing pro level mmm handle ling/bling/infestor/ultra plenty fine for a while now. Believe it or not, energy is a very valuable resource and between massive attacks at the front, and drops coming in to all bases, its rather hard to find the energy to waste on fungal/it specifically for clearing out medivacs.
This is why a lot of pro Zergs are going back to spire tech for 8-16 mutas. It gives the ability to clean up drops and medivacs in general without blowing 200 energy every time you want to kill a medivac or two.
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I hope they get rid of entomb. It sounds interesting but it won't make the game any more fun to watch. All you do is click on the mineral patch if you're the user and a-move on the mineral patch if you're the other one. There's no micro involved. It's just so typical of SC2's lackluster game design.
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On July 11 2012 19:22 DoctorPhil wrote: I hope they get rid of entomb. It sounds interesting but it won't make the game any more fun to watch. All you do is click on the mineral patch if you're the user and a-move on the mineral patch if you're the other one. There's no micro involved. It's just so typical of SC2's lackluster game design.
I'm sorry but that's a dumb reason to remove it. That's like saying high templars need to be removed because all you do is T+Click and the other guy needs to move command outta there. It's eco harass that forces more multitasking from the defending player and the oracle has a high speed and very little hitpoints so it requires a lot of attention to use properly. Out of all the new units i'm most excited for the oracle.
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On July 10 2012 23:23 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:17 iky43210 wrote: mmm in practice don't actually counters ultra/ling/infestors. At least not until after many many army trading battles and medivac counts get too high. Zerg have to fungal the medivacs and IT them down it'll never reach that point.
ultras murders marauders, you just have to add a few banelings in your composition to force terran to kite marines so the marines don't tank ultras for the marauders. It gets kind of difficult to micro marauders to focus on ultra when you have to kite banelings with marines and dodge fungals. most of the time your marauders is hitting useless crap like lings or something We've been seeing pro level mmm handle ling/bling/infestor/ultra plenty fine for a while now. Believe it or not, energy is a very valuable resource and between massive attacks at the front, and drops coming in to all bases, its rather hard to find the energy to waste on fungal/it specifically for clearing out medivacs. This is why a lot of pro Zergs are going back to spire tech for 8-16 mutas. It gives the ability to clean up drops and medivacs in general without blowing 200 energy every time you want to kill a medivac or two. Have we really seen that? The point is that one engagement might work ok, but Zerg simply has the bigger reproduction capacity/speed late in a game on a big map and thats where the problem starts.
Many of the broad "X counters Y" claims made here in the last few posts are totally ridiculous. Lets start with a bio ball and have a horde of Zergling/Baneling attack them. The MM split and thus the "Zerglings win" due to bigger surface area of the bio unit patches (we can see that frequently); if the MM dont split the Banelings take out MASSES of Marines for very little and the remaining Marauders are eaten by Zerglings and more Banelings. You could also make opposing claims, but I dont see that as often as I see Zerg winning. It is a matter of "critical mass" and Terrans simply cant outproduce the Zerg for hordes. That is one of the problems atm in the mid-late game ... on the larger maps it is simply easy for Zerg to take 4-5 bases and only if you are asleep or are totally unwilling to defend against drops will you lose the game then. Creep is spread all over the map nowadays and what can Terran and Protoss do? Nothing since their late game units (Carrier and BC) are sooo weak that they fall out of the sky before dealing their costs worth in damage.
Why are lategame units so weak? a. Mind Control (Infestors are MUCH cheaper and lower tech) b. Feedback (High Templars are MUCH cheaper than BCs and Feedback doesnt even have to be researched) c. Corruptors can be mass-produced easily d. Hydras can be mass-produced e. ground based anti-air units are MUCH faster than the big air units thus it isnt even necessary to build anti-air turrets against these f. no defensive matrix
suggested Changes to make BC and Carrier viable as lategame counter a. remove Mind Control from the game OR make massive/flying units immune b. increase the speed and acceleration of the units drastically so they have a chance of outrunning ground based anti-air c. restrict Feedback to biological units d. increase the base armor of the Carrier and BC by A LOT or increase the defensive bonus they get from armor upgrades e. increase the defensive values of the Interceptors f. reintroduce defensive matrix ...
There are a lot of things which can be done and the uselessness of the Protoss and Terran "big ones" is obvious and needs to be removed ... not by removing the Carrier, but by trying to fix it (which they havent done so far).
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can anybody tell what is the diference between spider mine/widow mine,battle helion/firebat,Cloaking Field/arbiter,Stasis spell/static field,bliding cloud/Dark Swarm/diruption web,consume/consume(lol)?Like you are going to pay 40 dollars for old and recycled,yet fucked up designs?
I wont mention ultralisk burrow or mathership core,becouse these are so ridiculous concept,i have to laught all the time(or cry)
Ability – Haywire: Autocastable Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack.
What?
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On July 11 2012 19:28 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 19:22 DoctorPhil wrote: I hope they get rid of entomb. It sounds interesting but it won't make the game any more fun to watch. All you do is click on the mineral patch if you're the user and a-move on the mineral patch if you're the other one. There's no micro involved. It's just so typical of SC2's lackluster game design. I'm sorry but that's a dumb reason to remove it. That's like saying high templars need to be removed because all you do is T+Click and the other guy needs to move command outta there. It's eco harass that forces more multitasking from the defending player and the oracle has a high speed and very little hitpoints so it requires a lot of attention to use properly. Out of all the new units i'm most excited for the oracle. But storm forces micro from the enemy (and also makes deathball play less attractive/encourages spreading). Awesome micro is what made BW so fun to watch even though I was terrible at the game myself. I want to see spells that encourage micro, not ones that increase the enemy macro a tiny bit to a-move a bunch of units to the minerals (or even worse, just put some spines/cannons/units there preemtively so no attention is needed at all).
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On July 11 2012 19:42 makaron wrote: can anybody tell what is the diference between spider mine/widow mine,battle helion/firebat,Cloaking Field/arbiter,Stasis spell/static field,bliding cloud/Dark Swarm/diruption web,consume/consume(lol)?Like you are going to pay 40 dollars for old and recycled,yet fucked up designs?
I wont mention ultralisk burrow or mathership core,becouse these are so ridiculous concept,i have to laught all the time(or cry)
Ability – Haywire: Autocastable Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack.
What?
1) spider mine can be mass and you can cover the entire map with them, and continue to drop them all game cause vultures. You also can't "control" them like widow, and spider mine forces no micro from your opponent once its activated. Its going to blow something up, while widow will force some sort of reaction from your enemy 2) hellion can transform and run fast 3) oracle is very different from arbiter. Even the invis/cloaking field functions differently for both games 4) dark swarm is a mix of disruption web and blinding cloud 5) one consume eats unit, the other consume drains buildings.
haywire I imagine is implemented for mech to be viable against protoss. Since u can use it to snipe sentries / colossus / immortals. Not sure about the last one, but since haywire is a spell, harden shield probably won't work against it. And immortals counter mech pretty hard right now
I doubt anyone good would let haywire be autocasted. Don't want to waste those shots at unimportant units when you can use them to snipe stuff
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On July 11 2012 22:32 iky43210 wrote: spider mine forces no micro from your opponent once its activated. Its going to blow something up, while widow will force some sort of reaction from your enemy
Um, what? I was with you up until that. Spider Mines do force a reation. Haven't you seen pro SC1 players hold-position their Dragoons the instant a mine pops up to shoot them? Did you think that they were on attack-move? They absolutely force a reaction.
Just not the same kind of reaction as Widow mines.
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