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On June 09 2012 22:22 Anima4 wrote: I don't like the fact that the mothership core costs supply Well, it's kinda like a macro mechanics but with several defensive/offensive options. Queens cost supply as well.
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On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways.
Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position.
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On June 09 2012 22:44 SimDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:32 MCDayC wrote: I like everything bar the warhound. Mech doesn't need a ground attack unit, they've got the fucking tank. Whats the point of an A move 2 legged walker? It's a Thor without it's interest anti air mechanic, or a Marauder, without stim. WTF? I love the mine, and pretty mech everything else, but I really don't understand the point of the warhound, bar just "Make factory good vs Toss". That's as deeply as these guys think. They design units to do things as narrowly as possible. When things are used creatively they have a hissy fit.
did something change about the warhound thats diff in the op?
Warhound should be a really good unit, makes mech almost viable in every MU, you have a new unit that takes the place of marine/rauder it sounds like. With spidermines now, i think mech will indeed be possible in all MU's. Im not finding any info that the autocastable ability is unit specific.
TvT looks like it will stay relatively the same in its 'core'. Mech or bio'mech being the comps that sound like they will be the 'standards'. TvZ looks like Mech or BioMech will be viable, although im not complete sure. Depends on how good warhound is vs armored. Otherwise me might see a rauder-mech style come out. TvP i can't even fathom currently. Bio-Mech looks like it will remain stronger than full mech, or rather rauder-tank with spidermines.
I know alot of T dont like bio-mech strats because of the range of upgrades needed, and they end up falling behind on upgrades late-late game, but HotS is looking legit. Deathball styles will be easier to break in all MU's.
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On June 09 2012 22:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. If it's instant, it might be a decent way to burn energy against HT.
Yeah that the only use i mean 100 Energy is quite alot and 6 seconds is pretty short you're not gonna suddenly chase something with BC's with this. Hell even running away seems hard on bigger maps.
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The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus.
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On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Well they're meant as a buffer for mech against lings and zealots, what did you expect? Blink and 7 range?
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I don't understand the lack of AA on the warhound. I thought that was the whole point of the unit.
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On June 09 2012 22:51 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Well they're meant as a buffer for mech against lings and zealots, what did you expect? Blink and 7 range?
So hug your tanks and cross your fingers i guess ? Doesn't seem very creative and opens you up to Area of Effect which Mech to be honest is already weak to considering you barely have more HP than Bio but basically can't ever dodge anything.
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Does the warhound attacks air ? I think I read somewhere it did not but I feel like everybody here think it does.
If it doesn't, air units will still be very dangerous against mech and I'm not sure if widow mines will be enough.
Btw, if a mine attach itself to a mutalisk and a mutalisk fly over a group of marine as the mine explodes, do the marine take some damage or not ? Same goes the other way, if a ground unit dies to a mine, will the air unit take damage ?
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3136 Posts
On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position.
Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol.
As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though...
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If Reaper have 7 range and the nitropack speed, they could be pretty damn good.
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On June 09 2012 22:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol. As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though...
Sad thing though its not just the mobile compositions its basically every ground composition that exists is faster than Mech thanks to Thors and Siege Tanks.
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On June 09 2012 22:51 drbrown wrote: The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus.
You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'.
Your adding protoss Tempest in while forgetting all the good zerg stuff added. Deathballs shouldn't kill zerg anymore, at least not Protoss deathballs, they have alot of options to split the opponent up/tear him apart. As long as the maps are good the MU will be great. Collosus wont be an issue anymore, and to be honest with you im thinking Tempest is going to be good for Defense, or for Containment. It wont be a unit that makes or breaks a composition, its too slow/etc.
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On June 09 2012 22:56 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol. As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though... Sad thing though its not just the mobile compositions its basically every ground composition that exists is faster than Mech thanks to Thors and Siege Tanks.
I still dont get why terrans complain about thors and siege tanks speed. Those units are supposed to be slow. If you want them to run as fast as your othe runits, use your 5-6 empty medivacks to transport the tanks across the map in the air above your bio/faster units. Protoss players use Warpprisms and HT because of slowness and it helps protect them. As long as you respond fast enough to drop your tanks once you get close to enemy territory your fine.
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Quite honestly alot of the new stuff viability will depend on Maps. If the maps in HOTS have as many open area as they have currently Mech will still suck and not be playable , new units or not.
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On June 09 2012 22:50 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:44 SimDawg wrote:On June 09 2012 21:32 MCDayC wrote: I like everything bar the warhound. Mech doesn't need a ground attack unit, they've got the fucking tank. Whats the point of an A move 2 legged walker? It's a Thor without it's interest anti air mechanic, or a Marauder, without stim. WTF? I love the mine, and pretty mech everything else, but I really don't understand the point of the warhound, bar just "Make factory good vs Toss". That's as deeply as these guys think. They design units to do things as narrowly as possible. When things are used creatively they have a hissy fit. did something change about the warhound thats diff in the op? Warhound should be a really good unit, makes mech almost viable in every MU, you have a new unit that takes the place of marine/rauder it sounds like. With spidermines now, i think mech will indeed be possible in all MU's. Im not finding any info that the autocastable ability is unit specific. TvT looks like it will stay relatively the same in its 'core'. Mech or bio'mech being the comps that sound like they will be the 'standards'. TvZ looks like Mech or BioMech will be viable, although im not complete sure. Depends on how good warhound is vs armored. Otherwise me might see a rauder-mech style come out. TvP i can't even fathom currently. Bio-Mech looks like it will remain stronger than full mech, or rather rauder-tank with spidermines. I know alot of T dont like bio-mech strats because of the range of upgrades needed, and they end up falling behind on upgrades late-late game, but HotS is looking legit. Deathball styles will be easier to break in all MU's.
If the Warhound's missiles can hit biological units, then I'll be happy with the Warhound. If it only hits Mechanical units, then it's way too specific and loses nearly all application vs Zerg and MMM.
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On June 09 2012 22:56 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:51 drbrown wrote: The only thing i wonder is how they intended for zerg to counter the tempest.
The only unit composition in WoL that is reliable in ZvP is infestor/brood lord, anything else will fall to a lategame protoss army. If they can take pot shots at the brood lords/infestors all day long with range 22 Tempests how exactly are we supposed to respond?
Abduct has 7 range, Neural Parasite 7, Corruptors 6, Fungal Growth roughly 7.
This problem gets amplified by the fact that protoss will be a lot more mobile than zerg in the lategame with mothership core, cant put flying units in a nydus. You can't take WoL 'Metagame' and add in a single unit. Currently in WoL infestor/brood is the go to strat because its so fucking strong. But stephano style play works as well. Infestor/brood isn't the only style, just the best 'lategame comp'. Your adding protoss Tempest in while forgetting all the good zerg stuff added. Deathballs shouldn't kill zerg anymore, at least not Protoss deathballs, they have alot of options to split the opponent up/tear him apart. As long as the maps are good the MU will be great. Collosus wont be an issue anymore, and to be honest with you im thinking Tempest is going to be good for Defense, or for Containment. It wont be a unit that makes or breaks a composition, its too slow/etc.
I can see for example the zerg army attacking at the protoss army and the tempest being a bit further back to snipe key units like Infestors and broodlords/vipers. The Tempest is pretty expensive but I think much more useful then the carrier.
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I wonder if you can make the widowmine not latch on automatically. Hold it back manually and then release it when you want to
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On June 09 2012 22:58 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:56 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:49 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:31 s3rp wrote: 45 more HP for Helions in Battle Form doesn't seem like much not sure if they don't insta melt in Battleform either and if they're only 2.25 speed with 2 range how in the world will they ever hit anything without hugging more valuable units . ? Reapers with 7 range but no speed will make it useful in TvT and TvP useless in TvZ all the Zerg Units are way too fast
Btw the Speed ability for BC's seems useless if its for 100 Energy and only 6 seconds other than wasting the Energy for something. I disagree. That's a 50% increase in hp. Now they are almost as tanky as Zealots for the same cost, which is exactly what mech needed. Since they can be reactored, it will (almost ^_^) be as good as Gateways. Hmm ok still doesn't solve the problem that they're slower than just about every Zerg and Toss unit they're supposed to kill with melee range. I guess they only become good if you manage to fight from a fortified position. Yeah, mech will always be less mobile than the mobile compositions of the other races lol. As long as Battlehellions can cost effectively hold ground, then it's doing its job. The siege tank can sure use a buff though... Sad thing though its not just the mobile compositions its basically every ground composition that exists is faster than Mech thanks to Thors and Siege Tanks. I still dont get why terrans complain about thors and siege tanks speed. Those units are supposed to be slow. If you want them to run as fast as your othe runits, use your 5-6 empty medivacks to transport the tanks across the map in the air above your bio/faster units. Protoss players use Warpprisms and HT because of slowness and it helps protect them. As long as you respond fast enough to drop your tanks once you get close to enemy territory your fine.
I don't think anyone having a Mech army will have 5-6 Medivacs. Or do you build 5-6 Warpprisms ? A mixed Bio/Mech army that is upgraded well enough on everything to compete beyond midgame doesn't exist .
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On June 09 2012 23:04 raf3776 wrote: I wonder if you can make the widowmine not latch on automatically. Hold it back manually and then release it when you want to and which target you want, that would be cool indeed.
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