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On July 10 2012 18:23 Grumbels wrote:
No, don't you get it? Ultralisks are literally only for if you want to lose. That's why pro players frequently use them in late-game compositions, it's because they play to lose.
Theyre use is situational, there is no master composition with ultras, what is weak for t3, they are only a weak stepping stone to not die to splashtech with lings. And they need gas units to trade efficient, gas units should trade efficient themselves or with support of more mineral focused units. But at the moment MMM with enough medivacs will kill you even when you have infestor. Because theyll heal over fungal. Also you should stop thinking in terms of WoL Balance and more in terms of HotS Balance, every race gets strong stuff you cant judge about hots balance atm.
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Well, yes you may lose a fight against terran with ling bling ultra infestor if you attack in a perfect defensive position and if you are not micoing and the terran micros perfectly. Therefore it is not a master composition. Your standards for a powerful army are somewhat exaggerated by the fact that blord infestor wins against everything if you do not make any big error.
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On July 10 2012 18:28 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 18:23 Grumbels wrote:
No, don't you get it? Ultralisks are literally only for if you want to lose. That's why pro players frequently use them in late-game compositions, it's because they play to lose. Theyre use is situational, there is no master composition with ultras, what is weak for t3, they are only a weak stepping stone to not die to splashtech with lings. And they need gas units to trade efficient, gas units should trade efficient themselves or with support of more mineral focused units. But at the moment MMM with enough medivacs will kill you even when you have infestor. Because theyll heal over fungal. Also you should stop thinking in terms of WoL Balance and more in terms of HotS Balance, every race gets strong stuff you cant judge about hots balance atm.
marauders counter ultras, and guess what? mmm includes them, marauders also counters infestors, bio slipt counter infestors and ultras, banes, not to mention medivac heal counters fungal, so basicly ultra ling infestor bane is countered by mmm, ofcourse terran gonna win, when everything you make is countered. I guess zerg having to actually outplay terran, and not just have better army in general to a move and win is to much to ask from zerg?
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mmm in practice don't actually counters ultra/ling/infestors. At least not until after many many army trading battles and medivac counts get too high. Zerg have to fungal the medivacs and IT them down it'll never reach that point.
ultras murders marauders, you just have to add a few banelings in your composition to force terran to kite marines so the marines don't tank ultras for the marauders. It gets kind of difficult to micro marauders to focus on ultra when you have to kite banelings with marines and dodge fungals. most of the time your marauders is hitting useless crap like lings or something
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On July 10 2012 22:17 iky43210 wrote:
mmm in practice don't actually counters ultra/ling/infestors. At least not until after many many army trading battles and medivac counts get too high. Zerg have to fungal the medivacs and IT them down it'll never reach that point.
ultras murders marauders, you just have to add a few banelings in your composition to force terran to kite marines so the marines don't tank ultras for the marauders. It gets kind of difficult to micro marauders to focus on ultra when you have to kite banelings with marines and dodge fungals. most of the time your marauders is hitting useless crap like lings or something
We've been seeing pro level mmm handle ling/bling/infestor/ultra plenty fine for a while now. Believe it or not, energy is a very valuable resource and between massive attacks at the front, and drops coming in to all bases, its rather hard to find the energy to waste on fungal/it specifically for clearing out medivacs.
This is why a lot of pro Zergs are going back to spire tech for 8-16 mutas. It gives the ability to clean up drops and medivacs in general without blowing 200 energy every time you want to kill a medivac or two.
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I hope they get rid of entomb. It sounds interesting but it won't make the game any more fun to watch. All you do is click on the mineral patch if you're the user and a-move on the mineral patch if you're the other one. There's no micro involved. It's just so typical of SC2's lackluster game design.
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On July 11 2012 19:22 DoctorPhil wrote:
I hope they get rid of entomb. It sounds interesting but it won't make the game any more fun to watch. All you do is click on the mineral patch if you're the user and a-move on the mineral patch if you're the other one. There's no micro involved. It's just so typical of SC2's lackluster game design.
I'm sorry but that's a dumb reason to remove it. That's like saying high templars need to be removed because all you do is T+Click and the other guy needs to move command outta there. It's eco harass that forces more multitasking from the defending player and the oracle has a high speed and very little hitpoints so it requires a lot of attention to use properly. Out of all the new units i'm most excited for the oracle.
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On July 10 2012 23:23 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:17 iky43210 wrote:
mmm in practice don't actually counters ultra/ling/infestors. At least not until after many many army trading battles and medivac counts get too high. Zerg have to fungal the medivacs and IT them down it'll never reach that point.
ultras murders marauders, you just have to add a few banelings in your composition to force terran to kite marines so the marines don't tank ultras for the marauders. It gets kind of difficult to micro marauders to focus on ultra when you have to kite banelings with marines and dodge fungals. most of the time your marauders is hitting useless crap like lings or something We've been seeing pro level mmm handle ling/bling/infestor/ultra plenty fine for a while now. Believe it or not, energy is a very valuable resource and between massive attacks at the front, and drops coming in to all bases, its rather hard to find the energy to waste on fungal/it specifically for clearing out medivacs. This is why a lot of pro Zergs are going back to spire tech for 8-16 mutas. It gives the ability to clean up drops and medivacs in general without blowing 200 energy every time you want to kill a medivac or two.
Have we really seen that? The point is that one engagement might work ok, but Zerg simply has the bigger reproduction capacity/speed late in a game on a big map and thats where the problem starts.
Many of the broad "X counters Y" claims made here in the last few posts are totally ridiculous. Lets start with a bio ball and have a horde of Zergling/Baneling attack them. The MM split and thus the "Zerglings win" due to bigger surface area of the bio unit patches (we can see that frequently); if the MM dont split the Banelings take out MASSES of Marines for very little and the remaining Marauders are eaten by Zerglings and more Banelings. You could also make opposing claims, but I dont see that as often as I see Zerg winning. It is a matter of "critical mass" and Terrans simply cant outproduce the Zerg for hordes. That is one of the problems atm in the mid-late game ... on the larger maps it is simply easy for Zerg to take 4-5 bases and only if you are asleep or are totally unwilling to defend against drops will you lose the game then. Creep is spread all over the map nowadays and what can Terran and Protoss do? Nothing since their late game units (Carrier and BC) are sooo weak that they fall out of the sky before dealing their costs worth in damage.
Why are lategame units so weak?
a. Mind Control (Infestors are MUCH cheaper and lower tech)
b. Feedback (High Templars are MUCH cheaper than BCs and Feedback doesnt even have to be researched)
c. Corruptors can be mass-produced easily
d. Hydras can be mass-produced
e. ground based anti-air units are MUCH faster than the big air units thus it isnt even necessary to build anti-air turrets against these
f. no defensive matrix
suggested Changes to make BC and Carrier viable as lategame counter
a. remove Mind Control from the game OR make massive/flying units immune
b. increase the speed and acceleration of the units drastically so they have a chance of outrunning ground based anti-air
c. restrict Feedback to biological units
d. increase the base armor of the Carrier and BC by A LOT or increase the defensive bonus they get from armor upgrades
e. increase the defensive values of the Interceptors
f. reintroduce defensive matrix
...
There are a lot of things which can be done and the uselessness of the Protoss and Terran "big ones" is obvious and needs to be removed ... not by removing the Carrier, but by trying to fix it (which they havent done so far).
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can anybody tell what is the diference between spider mine/widow mine,battle helion/firebat,Cloaking Field/arbiter,Stasis spell/static field,bliding cloud/Dark Swarm/diruption web,consume/consume(lol)?Like you are going to pay 40 dollars for old and recycled,yet fucked up designs?
I wont mention ultralisk burrow or mathership core,becouse these are so ridiculous concept,i have to laught all the time(or cry)
Ability – Haywire:
Autocastable
Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack.
What?
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On July 11 2012 19:28 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 19:22 DoctorPhil wrote:
I hope they get rid of entomb. It sounds interesting but it won't make the game any more fun to watch. All you do is click on the mineral patch if you're the user and a-move on the mineral patch if you're the other one. There's no micro involved. It's just so typical of SC2's lackluster game design. I'm sorry but that's a dumb reason to remove it. That's like saying high templars need to be removed because all you do is T+Click and the other guy needs to move command outta there. It's eco harass that forces more multitasking from the defending player and the oracle has a high speed and very little hitpoints so it requires a lot of attention to use properly. Out of all the new units i'm most excited for the oracle. But storm forces micro from the enemy (and also makes deathball play less attractive/encourages spreading). Awesome micro is what made BW so fun to watch even though I was terrible at the game myself. I want to see spells that encourage micro, not ones that increase the enemy macro a tiny bit to a-move a bunch of units to the minerals (or even worse, just put some spines/cannons/units there preemtively so no attention is needed at all).
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On July 11 2012 19:42 makaron wrote:
can anybody tell what is the diference between spider mine/widow mine,battle helion/firebat,Cloaking Field/arbiter,Stasis spell/static field,bliding cloud/Dark Swarm/diruption web,consume/consume(lol)?Like you are going to pay 40 dollars for old and recycled,yet fucked up designs?
I wont mention ultralisk burrow or mathership core,becouse these are so ridiculous concept,i have to laught all the time(or cry)
Ability – Haywire:
Autocastable
Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack.
What?
1) spider mine can be mass and you can cover the entire map with them, and continue to drop them all game cause vultures. You also can't "control" them like widow, and spider mine forces no micro from your opponent once its activated. Its going to blow something up, while widow will force some sort of reaction from your enemy
2) hellion can transform and run fast
3) oracle is very different from arbiter. Even the invis/cloaking field functions differently for both games
4) dark swarm is a mix of disruption web and blinding cloud
5) one consume eats unit, the other consume drains buildings.
haywire I imagine is implemented for mech to be viable against protoss. Since u can use it to snipe sentries / colossus / immortals. Not sure about the last one, but since haywire is a spell, harden shield probably won't work against it. And immortals counter mech pretty hard right now
I doubt anyone good would let haywire be autocasted. Don't want to waste those shots at unimportant units when you can use them to snipe stuff
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On July 11 2012 22:32 iky43210 wrote:
spider mine forces no micro from your opponent once its activated. Its going to blow something up, while widow will force some sort of reaction from your enemy
Um, what? I was with you up until that. Spider Mines do force a reation. Haven't you seen pro SC1 players hold-position their Dragoons the instant a mine pops up to shoot them? Did you think that they were on attack-move? They absolutely force a reaction.
Just not the same kind of reaction as Widow mines.
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EPT
