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oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?)
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On June 10 2012 01:46 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades. Well obviously you can't just compare it head to head, because no one in their right mind is gonna try using blink stalkers against warhounds anytime soon is HotS. That's what I was showing. A Warhound is truly on the same scale as a marauder, it's just better all around and costs more to offset that. And you never fight with stalkers against marauders. In fact the goal in any PvT is to make as few stalkers as possible. And with the addition of the Warhound, that rule will still hold. And your argument of what comes out of what building gets ridiculous when you actually compare fairly. Do you know how much all of the buildings and research to have those choices costs? Toss doesn't automatically start with all of their tech.
Kind of like how Every race has to tech to their units. All the buildings and resources? It's 1 Cyber Core and you have access to 3, Twilight Council and 1 more Tech structure and that's as far as most Toss goes. Each new factory requires 100 gas, 25 for a Tech Lab that most units require and an Armoury for some. Not to mention the difficulty in Tech switching for Terrans. Toss production is streamlined mainly through 1 building that gives them all of their core units. 1 150 Mineral no Gas building at that.
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On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?)
I like the idea a lot. It is a high cost, low impact unit that is more about long term planning. Rather than a flying, "I kill all the flying stuff now" unit. I am not sure where it fits into the match up, but I am sure it will go somewhere.
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On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?)
I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens.
Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer.
Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races.
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On June 10 2012 03:16 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:46 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades. Well obviously you can't just compare it head to head, because no one in their right mind is gonna try using blink stalkers against warhounds anytime soon is HotS. That's what I was showing. A Warhound is truly on the same scale as a marauder, it's just better all around and costs more to offset that. And you never fight with stalkers against marauders. In fact the goal in any PvT is to make as few stalkers as possible. And with the addition of the Warhound, that rule will still hold. And your argument of what comes out of what building gets ridiculous when you actually compare fairly. Do you know how much all of the buildings and research to have those choices costs? Toss doesn't automatically start with all of their tech. Kind of like how Every race has to tech to their units. All the buildings and resources? It's 1 Cyber Core and you have access to 3, Twilight Council and 1 more Tech structure and that's as far as most Toss goes. Each new factory requires 100 gas, 25 for a Tech Lab that most units require and an Armoury for some. Not to mention the difficulty in Tech switching for Terrans. Toss production is streamlined mainly through 1 building that gives them all of their core units. 1 150 Mineral no Gas building at that. I was pointing to the fact that you derailed the discussion with that comment. We were talking about the current stats of the Warhound, and how they literally make it the mech mirror-image of the marauder.
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On June 10 2012 03:02 Chicken Chaser wrote: Warhound = Terran Immortal? Or are they best for anti-tank, anti-colossus (siege units)? From what I've understood, they serve two main purposes:
1) Breaking siege lines in early TvT when the tank numbers aren't too high 2) As a general anti-protoss unit for mech, since most protoss units are mechanical they will be able to do sick DPS in most situations.
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On June 10 2012 03:02 Chicken Chaser wrote: Warhound = Terran Immortal? Or are they best for anti-tank, anti-colossus (siege units)? It seems like they're more super-marauders than anything else. I think the basic idea is that they're a strong, easy to mass factory unit to support the mass tank that's a staple of mech play.
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Is the Warhound able to attack non-mechanical units?
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On June 10 2012 03:21 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?) I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens. Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer. Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races.
Yeah you're right, i would hope it doesn't have energy.
Hm, what is protoss' answer to warhound/hellion? They could add colossi but you can just add vikings. I guess they want them to use the tempest (and possibly carrier, and maybe even phoenix/voidray) to force vikings from terran? But wouldn't that be boring? You just mass viking vs any protoss air unit. I guess in BW you massed goliaths vs carrier, but I think they should try (if they haven't) to make it more dynamic than just having 1 unit as an answer for all of protoss's stargate units. I wonder how you can get the vikings to the tempest? Wouldn't it be hard to make maps where tempest can't abuse too many areas? Or maybe the tempest is that siege unit vs mech, forcing mech to reposition -- not necessarily defensively, but perhaps offensively to force the protoss to reposition his tempests.
Also, carriers beat vikings in supply right? Maybe they will actually need to take the carrier out because it may be too hard to deal with them with just vikings + turrets. Maybe the BC's new speed will help them deal with Carriers even more though? (chase them down)
Too bad you can't use redline AND yamato haha, imagine a BC flying to get into position to yamato a tempest. That shit could be epic to see.
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On June 10 2012 03:23 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:16 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:46 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 01:32 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech. You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere. If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades. Well obviously you can't just compare it head to head, because no one in their right mind is gonna try using blink stalkers against warhounds anytime soon is HotS. That's what I was showing. A Warhound is truly on the same scale as a marauder, it's just better all around and costs more to offset that. And you never fight with stalkers against marauders. In fact the goal in any PvT is to make as few stalkers as possible. And with the addition of the Warhound, that rule will still hold. And your argument of what comes out of what building gets ridiculous when you actually compare fairly. Do you know how much all of the buildings and research to have those choices costs? Toss doesn't automatically start with all of their tech. Kind of like how Every race has to tech to their units. All the buildings and resources? It's 1 Cyber Core and you have access to 3, Twilight Council and 1 more Tech structure and that's as far as most Toss goes. Each new factory requires 100 gas, 25 for a Tech Lab that most units require and an Armoury for some. Not to mention the difficulty in Tech switching for Terrans. Toss production is streamlined mainly through 1 building that gives them all of their core units. 1 150 Mineral no Gas building at that. I was pointing to the fact that you derailed the discussion with that comment. We were talking about the current stats of the Warhound, and how they literally make it the mech mirror-image of the marauder.
My response was towards you and other people comparing Warhounds with Stalkers. This is just like the Roach vs Stalker debate all over again. All of these units serve different roles, and you can't compare them without looking at production (since I have to spell it out, mobility and warp-ins), infrastructure and upgrade differences.
It's not as simple as Warhounds > Stalkers as most posters seem to be making it out to be.
As for comparing it with the Marauder, that point I agree on and posted about earlier.
On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote: Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are.
On June 10 2012 03:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:21 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?) I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens. Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer. Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races. Yeah you're right, i would hope it doesn't have energy. Hm, what is protoss' answer to warhound/hellion? They could add colossi but you can just add vikings. I guess they want them to use the tempest (and possibly carrier, and maybe even phoenix/voidray) to force vikings from terran? But wouldn't that be boring? You just mass viking vs any protoss air unit. I guess in BW you massed goliaths vs carrier, but I think they should try (if they haven't) to make it more dynamic than just having 1 unit as an answer for all of protoss's stargate units. I wonder how you can get the vikings to the tempest? Wouldn't it be hard to make maps where tempest can't abuse too many areas? Or maybe the tempest is that siege unit vs mech, forcing mech to reposition -- not necessarily defensively, but perhaps offensively to force the protoss to reposition his tempests. Also, carriers beat vikings in supply right? Maybe they will actually need to take the carrier out because it may be too hard to deal with them with just vikings + turrets. Maybe the BC's new speed will help them deal with Carriers even more though? (chase them down) Too bad you can't use redline AND yamato haha, imagine a BC flying to get into position to yamato a tempest. That shit could be epic to see.
I forgot, Banshees as well. Terran already has 6 energy using units.
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Well Thors are decent against protoss air when mech'ing, so long as he doesn't catch you off guard with 10 carriers when you only have 2 thors. I mean, your mech should be way ahead on upgrades for a while, giving you time to add vikings. If it's like 4 thors (which you should have a few of to tank late game) and they have 6 voids, it's not too bad, especially if you brought SCVs with you. I mean, not like you won't be scanning around to make sure you know what he's doing. Yeah, 10 thors isn't gonna do anything to 10 carriers, but again that's why you get vikings. Then you could even get some BCs for yamato. But the thor splash still helps a lot. Void rays stack so much and they're slow to split up. Carrier don't seem to take as much damage or maybe it's just cus they have so much HP.
Anyways, seems like the design in WoL made terran more diverse (which is good! thus allowing them to transition easier, without making their army weaker -- think tanks and medivacs on bio in TvZ, think ghosts and vikings in bio TvP, think banshees and vikings with mech TvZ, etc.) There's no pure anything anymore, except for the early/game like in TvZ where you can stick with bio (though in the midgame you'll need medivacs)
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On June 10 2012 03:21 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: oh wow, just noticed the tempest doesn't do splash anymore :D nice! So it isn't a flying colossi with 22 range its pretty low DPS makes it seem like a zoning unit, maybe occasional harasser, and I guess a unit to help deal with BL/Infestor
also i wonder if they considered making the warhound ability sorta like the odin's strike canon, so that there's timing + positioning involved (if a unit gets in the AOE then it gets shot by the missiles), but i guess they want the ability to really be just a 2nd attack but give the warhound an energy bar (does it have energy...?) I would hope it doesn't have energy. There's enough Terran units with Energy already, making HT's that much more dangerous. Ghost, Medivac, Thor, BattleCruisers, Ravens. Compare Protoss: HT, Mothership, Sentry. Zerg: Queen, Infestor, Overseer. Terran doesn't need a 6th. Even with the expansion adding new energy based units for the other races.
Too late. You forgot banshee
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What happens if you load a unit with a mine on it into a transport?
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Now the big question is can u put the mines into a medivac ? thatd be pretty interesting, gonna pay the protoss back for forcefielding ramp forever....
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I want to see speed prism+immortal drops for clearing mines... Pimpest plays, make it happen.
Also, zealot warp-in with a prism, mine attaches to warping zealot, put the prism back in transport mode to cancel the warp-in.
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Can anyone test whether Warhound's Haywire ability is affected by Immortal's hardened shield? Back when Thor's Strike Cannons had a cooldown instead of an energy cost, Immortals beat Thors on paper but got shredded when you added Strike Cannons into the equation because Strike Cannons are not affected by Hardened Shield. Immortals should still do well vs. Warhounds unless they get kited because they just hit so hard and T can't choose to focus the missiles on the Immortals, but I'm still curious.
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I can't wait to see how this will change ZvZ. Siege lines of swarm hosts are going to turn it into a MOBA.
Or perhaps Vipers will be used to abduct them and pull the swarm hosts into the waiting locusts. Can you abduct a burrowed unit?
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On June 10 2012 04:09 Kmatt wrote: I can't wait to see how this will change ZvZ. Siege lines of swarm hosts are going to turn it into a MOBA.
Or perhaps Vipers will be used to abduct them and pull the swarm hosts into the waiting locusts. Can you abduct a burrowed unit?
I'd reckon the Ultralisk burrow charge will have a thing or two to say about Swarm hosts. Also, neural parasiting the Swarm hosts right before they spawn the locusts, pimpest play in ZvZ.
ZvZ will be really interesting because of the Vipers and their -range cloud. That will force the zerg into less ranged units and more into melee and flying units instead. Lategame is going to rely on Vipers a lot because it will be the most positional unit the Zerg has because it can both create good positions and punish bad positioning by the enemy.
The consume spell is going to be so much fun, proxying an extractor to get energy near the battlefield and just pull stuff out. I will enjoy pulling scvs away while they are building something and just watch that building never complete because the terran never found out.
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Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion?
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On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote: Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion?
Maybe the screenshots on the box art will be what actual games look like.
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