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On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote:
Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion?
Step 1: Add Vikings
Step 2: Add Thors
Step 3: LolVoidRays
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So I think we can all agree that the Tempest is stupid, but I'm intrigued with the crazy range. So why not just give the range upgrade to the carrier?? Not 22 obviously, but like 14-16. Oh and the mothership core is cool, I just hope they change the model, lol wtf. Just like a floating archon type thing over the nexus would be better.
I'm really satisfied with the zerg additions. but ultra charge? really?? why dont they just remove the tank from the game while they're at it. I can't believe it made it this far in the builds.
my two cents ty
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Warhound is over the top. Imagine mass stalker ball that has more health and does more demage but cost the same supply... it's insanely strong with those stats.
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On June 10 2012 04:36 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote:
Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion? Step 1: Add Vikings Step 2: Add Thors Step 3: LolVoidRays
All those steps are fail as fuck. One thors are expensive as fuck. Two vikings take away from your supply of warhounds and hellions. Three LOL HIGH TEMPLAR will fuck that as well.
Edit: You guys shouldn't be theorycrafting shit right now. Its not balanced at all.
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On June 10 2012 04:48 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 04:36 HeroMystic wrote:On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote:
Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion? Step 1: Add Vikings Step 2: Add Thors Step 3: LolVoidRays All those steps are fail as fuck. One thors are expensive as fuck. Two vikings take away from your supply of warhounds and hellions. Three LOL HIGH TEMPLAR will fuck that as well. Edit: You guys shouldn't be theorycrafting shit right now. Its not balanced at all.
Shouldn't be theorycrafting yet you theorycraft... okay.
And that isn't Theorycraft. That's what Mech uses right now in WoL to take out Void Rays (outside of earlygame Marines).
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Thank you very much for writing of this article it is very helpful
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We want more micro units, they are adding single target units like viper is a good idea, but i dont like widow mine because is silly, stop making another gamebreak skill like ForceField, you guys need to stop making skills that is too OP early game, and too bad late game, spidermines are strong because of lack of detection from Zergs and protoss they couldnt break without have a better army ou better position and i cant see this with widow mines,because isnt a unit like vulture is just another baneling less cost effective sometimes and more cost effective sometimes, learn from mistakes why Thor is so bad? just because they are goliaths more expansive, dont make a baneling more expansive in this game.
make units who can be 50x more strong with micro like Reaver + Shuttle(BW), Burrow baneling(SC2), marine split (SC2),Hold Lurker (BW),Mutalisk Stack (BW).
i have a perfect suggestion about widow mines, transform this in a skill and give to Raven, and make PDD being a skill to the thors.
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Warhounds aren't a strict upgrade from marauders. If anything they are roughly equal, except for the fact that warhounds only cost 2 supply (an overpowered supply ratio that seems totally absurd and hopefully is a typo).
Comparing 1 Warhound (150/75) to 2 Marauders (200/50):
Hound - 220 hp, 1 armor, 2.81 speed, 17.7 DPS (22.7 vs Mech)
Rauders - 240 hp, 1 armor, 2.25 speed (3.38 stimmed), 13.3 DPS (20 stimmed), 26.6 DPS vs Armored (40 stimmed)
If anything, stimmed Marauders are still overall stronger than Warhounds. Warhounds seem like they would hard-counter just two units:
1) Stalkers
2) Siege Tanks
It is also worth noting that 60 health, 7 range Reapers can A-move into mass hydralisks or hydra-ling and win. Basically, they should force zerg to make roaches just like mass hellions. You could also put them BEHIND your marines and marauders to easily kill chargelots. Also, since Locusts are Light it may be worth putting Reapers into Bunkers to defend against swarm hosts.
One more thing: from watching the video with Ultralisks, it seems like Burrow Charge is no longer a Zealot-like near-instant charge. It has a finite velocity to it that is faster than regular Ultralisk speed but doesn't seem to be that much faster than Speedling speed. (there are no lings in the burrowcharge video so it's hard to tell) That means that in an Ultra-Ling army, your ultras and lings should hit the enemy line at roughly the same time - pretty cool!
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I was looking forward to Thors being gone. Now I am disappointed
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Everything about Terran just seems awful. So opponents do in fact see the timer when a mine latches onto them. Wow, thanks Blizzard.
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On June 10 2012 05:22 Trevo wrote:
We want more micro units, they are adding single target units like viper is a good idea, but i dont like widow mine because is silly, stop making another gamebreak skill like ForceField, you guys need to stop making skills that is too OP early game, and too bad late game, spidermines are strong because of lack of detection from Zergs and protoss they couldnt break without have a better army ou better position and i cant see this with widow mines,because isnt a unit like vulture is just another baneling less cost effective sometimes and more cost effective sometimes, learn from mistakes why Thor is so bad? just because they are goliaths more expansive, dont make a baneling more expansive in this game.
make units who can be 50x more strong with micro like Reaver + Shuttle(BW), Burrow baneling(SC2), marine split (SC2),Hold Lurker (BW),Mutalisk Stack (BW).
i have a perfect suggestion about widow mines, transform this in a skill and give to Raven, and make PDD being a skill to the thors.
I actually think giving widow mines to Ravens would make sense.
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On June 10 2012 05:25 Piousflea wrote:
Warhounds aren't a strict upgrade from marauders. If anything they are roughly equal, except for the fact that warhounds only cost 2 supply (an overpowered supply ratio that seems totally absurd and hopefully is a typo).
Comparing 1 Warhound (150/75) to 2 Marauders (200/50):
Hound - 220 hp, 1 armor, 2.81 speed, 17.7 DPS (22.7 vs Mech)
Rauders - 240 hp, 1 armor, 2.25 speed (3.38 stimmed), 13.3 DPS (20 stimmed), 26.6 DPS vs Armored (40 stimmed)
If anything, stimmed Marauders are still overall stronger than Warhounds. Warhounds seem like they would hard-counter just two units:
1) Stalkers
2) Siege Tanks
It is also worth noting that 60 health, 7 range Reapers can A-move into mass hydralisks or hydra-ling and win. Basically, they should force zerg to make roaches just like mass hellions. You could also put them BEHIND your marines and marauders to easily kill chargelots. Also, since Locusts are Light it may be worth putting Reapers into Bunkers to defend against swarm hosts.
While in theory, Reapers "may" seem like they'd wreck Hydras. People tend to forget that they take 45secs to build.
Hydras take 33.
For comparison sake, Ghost take 40. Marines 25, Marauders 30.
45secs is a extremely long time to tie up a Barrack. I can't see them being anything more than more sturdy and useful base raiders than the current version. They'll have their uses I'm sure, but it won't be in any main engagements.
Also Marauders cost 2 supply. So it's not quite right to compare 2 Marauders vs 1 Warhound. While it'll be technically stat-wise a more cost-efficient unit, it lacks sync with Bio-Benefits such as Medivacs.
On June 10 2012 05:28 zmansman17 wrote:
Everything about Terran just seems awful. So opponents do in fact see the timer when a mine latches onto them. Wow, thanks Blizzard.
Didn't they say somewhere that they don't expect any pro-players to have the AOE damage affect them? 10 seconds is a very long time before detonation.
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On June 10 2012 04:48 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 04:36 HeroMystic wrote:On June 10 2012 04:28 ultimfier wrote:
Just a crazy theorycraft (obviously) about PvT. Been reading some posts about how hellion/warhound is looking to be strong against toss.
Assuming terran goes mech wouldnt VOID RAYS become a pretty damn good option. I mean chargelots will still have to be created en mass due to them being the mineral dump, but using your gas dump on mobile void rays could cause problems for terran. Forcing terran to create thors (meh) or marines (eating away heliion numbers) should really help the chargelots.
tl;dr couldnt zealot+voidray+oracle be a good unit comp against warhound/hellion? Step 1: Add Vikings Step 2: Add Thors Step 3: LolVoidRays All those steps are fail as fuck. One thors are expensive as fuck. Two vikings take away from your supply of warhounds and hellions. Three LOL HIGH TEMPLAR will fuck that as well. Edit: You guys shouldn't be theorycrafting shit right now. Its not balanced at all.
Lol what. Vikings and thors work very well. If you spot toss's tech switch or them adding starport tech, it's no problem at all. Actually unless they are able to get mass carriers, any starport air will be a waste of money because it's unupgraded.
Thors are not that expensive for their value. Vikings take away from your supply...? And voidrays don't...? Yeah and I guess you won't have neither tank nor ghost to handle the HTs. Oh wait, you can just spread your vikings or dodge storms.
On June 10 2012 05:29 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 05:22 Trevo wrote:
We want more micro units, they are adding single target units like viper is a good idea, but i dont like widow mine because is silly, stop making another gamebreak skill like ForceField, you guys need to stop making skills that is too OP early game, and too bad late game, spidermines are strong because of lack of detection from Zergs and protoss they couldnt break without have a better army ou better position and i cant see this with widow mines,because isnt a unit like vulture is just another baneling less cost effective sometimes and more cost effective sometimes, learn from mistakes why Thor is so bad? just because they are goliaths more expansive, dont make a baneling more expansive in this game.
make units who can be 50x more strong with micro like Reaver + Shuttle(BW), Burrow baneling(SC2), marine split (SC2),Hold Lurker (BW),Mutalisk Stack (BW).
i have a perfect suggestion about widow mines, transform this in a skill and give to Raven, and make PDD being a skill to the thors. I actually think giving widow mines to Ravens would make sense.
HOLY SHIT. Someone go suggest this lol! I would be fine with thors having an energy bar again. It would make air play harder though, but that's not supposed to be "viable" anyways. Actually maybe widow mines would be more useful for air play than PDDs. Maybe you could bring a couple thors with medivacs with your air fleets for air support and to drop some PDDs, kekek.
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They need to change the name of the Widow mine.. after hearing a ton of casters say it, it sounds like they're saying "little mine" as if they were talking to a baby.
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On June 10 2012 05:47 Xpace wrote:
They need to change the name of the Widow mine.. after hearing a ton of casters say it, it sounds like they're saying "little mine" as if they were talking to a baby.
haha now i'll keep hearing it like that ;O good point tho
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Merge please merge this with the larger thread please. Have to keep looking back and forth both topics cover the same thing.
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Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss.
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This is good because now every race can get free kills. 
Zerg now has Abduct and Locusts for a guaranteed kill. Abduct requires an army but that's not really an issue. In addition anything killed by Locusts will be 100% cost efficient.
Terran now has Widow Mine attachment for a guaranteed kill. There is no way to remove the mine. Also I think killing your own unit will cause the mine to blow up early.
Protoss has Entomb for guaranteed enemy income loss, and the surprise factor of Tempests coupled with the safety net of Mass Recall, for guaranteed free kills.
What I mean by a free kill is destroying something belonging to your opponent with no losses to your own units or structures.
This is shaping up to be great!
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I was just watching MLG with Day[9] that was casting a HOTS game. And the first thing I was thinking was WTF.
So many things in the gameplay is stupid. The main thing I really REALLY hate about HOTS from what I saw (TvZ) was that everything is too powerful and everything happens too quickly. There is never time to react.
When a Viper pulls a sieged tank, you can't do anything about it.
When a Widow Mine attaches itself to a unit, there's nothing you can do.
When an Ultralisk does that burrow charge thing, there's nothing you can do either.
I think that RTS without reaction time is not RTS.
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On June 10 2012 06:00 sorrowptoss wrote:
I was just watching MLG with Day[9] that was casting a HOTS game. And the first thing I was thinking was WTF.
So many things in the gameplay is stupid. The main thing I really REALLY hate about HOTS from what I saw (TvZ) was that everything is too powerful and everything happens too quickly. There is never time to react.
When a Viper pulls a sieged tank, you can't do anything about it.
When a Widow Mine attaches itself to a unit, there's nothing you can do.
When an Ultralisk does that burrow charge thing, there's nothing you can do either.
I think that RTS without reaction time is not RTS.
this is actually like irradiate, when irradiate is casted, you can't do nothing, and it's cool, it create the "WOW" moment.
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EPT
