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On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink.
I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
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Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300
Gas: 300
Supply: 6
Build Time: 75
Health: 300
Shields: 150
Speed: 2.25
Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive)
Attack Range: 10
Attack Delay: 6
Upgrade – Gravity Sling:
attack delay 6!? is this a typo?
8dps for a capital ship?
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On June 10 2012 01:20 Sandstorm9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink. I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
We don't even know that pure hellion/Warhound will be good against toss..
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On June 10 2012 00:56 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I think they want terrans to keep building starports/vikings and later switch to the buffed Battlecruisers That would be great.
Btw, it occured to me that we cant compare Stalkers to Warhounds. It's never X vs Y, but always a combination of units. So do the Protoss have the army composition to deal with this? Void Rays or Immortals sound like a nice counter.
Void Rays in actual combat? Say it aint so!
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On June 10 2012 01:18 Yaotzin wrote:
In theorycraft land how does Protoss stop mech+vikings?
Good question, I'm wondering that myself. Mass Archons seems good against that composition, Immortals would be decent... maybe hallucination for meatshields and widow mine fodder? Tempests would be great with something to protect them from Vikings. Problem is those three units are all from different tech trees.
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On June 10 2012 00:59 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:54 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:52 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) I don't understand why people complain that mech has poor anti-air... it's like complaining that Robo has shitty anti-air. The factory isn't going to give you the answer to everything. Well, Raxes do, and no one find that weird. Factory did during BW too.. and it was normal.. Barracks units are almost universally weak to AoE; they need to be massed to be effective. Yes, SC1 Factories gave you everything you needed. And that's why Mech is the dominant build in most vT matches. That is a bad thing; there's shouldn't be a single best strategy.
Uh... that's incredibly false. In TvZ, Marine/Medic/Firebat with Sci Vessel support was the dominant build. Tanks were needed vs Ling/Lurker, and Goliaths were terrible vs Mutas (you needed Sci Vessel or mass marine).
In TvP, you needed marines + bunkers to hold the front because Toss could murder you otherwise. You needed Sci Vessels to stop Arbiters and Psi Storm, and Dropships were needed to help harass. Yes, Factory-based compositions were dominant, but Factory needed support.
The reason why MM didn't work vs P in BW is solely due to the Reaver.
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South Africa4280 Posts
On June 10 2012 01:21 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +
Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300
Gas: 300
Supply: 6
Build Time: 75
Health: 300
Shields: 150
Speed: 2.25
Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive)
Attack Range: 10
Attack Delay: 6
Upgrade – Gravity Sling:
attack delay 6!? is this a typo? 8dps for a capital ship?
It's obviously for sniping from under your ball and forcing engagements.
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On June 10 2012 01:20 Sandstorm9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink. I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
You heard it here folks, get 0/0, no-stim, no-combat shield Marines to handle all the AA problems that Factory units have all game long.
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On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink.
Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more.
The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech.
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On June 10 2012 01:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote:
warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps
220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80
194 vs 34/80
181 vs 11/80
168 vs 00/69
155 vs 00/47
142 vs 00/25
129 vs 00/03
129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two
warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50%
better than a stalker for sure
I think you misunderstand the missile attack. The warhound does 23 damage with its regular. The missile on the other hand Show nested quote +Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack. So basically extra DPS. You also didn't take into account attack rate and range, which the Warhound is also superior.
warhound does 23 DAMAGE, not DPS, also warhound shoots 8 times, while stalker only 7 due to the range(you can see that in my calculations)
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On June 10 2012 01:24 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:21 caradoc wrote:
Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive
Requires Fleet Beacon
Minerals: 300
Gas: 300
Supply: 6
Build Time: 75
Health: 300
Shields: 150
Speed: 2.25
Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive)
Attack Range: 10
Attack Delay: 6
Upgrade – Gravity Sling:
attack delay 6!? is this a typo? 8dps for a capital ship? It's obviously for sniping from under your ball and forcing engagements.
yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers. I thought the 22 range would be a decent counterbalance to abduct's range, but with an attack delay of 6, I can't help but think they'd be the ones getting abducted. It's cost effective to sac a viper to snag one-- you can just chain abduct.
I guess it's a hard thing to tune with such long range, it could quite quickly get OP.
The unit feels clunky.
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On June 10 2012 01:27 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote:
warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps
220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80
194 vs 34/80
181 vs 11/80
168 vs 00/69
155 vs 00/47
142 vs 00/25
129 vs 00/03
129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two
warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50%
better than a stalker for sure
I think you misunderstand the missile attack. The warhound does 23 damage with its regular. The missile on the other hand Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack. So basically extra DPS. You also didn't take into account attack rate and range, which the Warhound is also superior. warhound does 23 DAMAGE, not DPS
That doesn't make sense because Stalkers do 14 damage not 14 DPS. Their DPS is significantly lower.
Either you are wrong about the Warhound or Stalker. You pick.
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On June 10 2012 01:18 Yaotzin wrote:
In theorycraft land how does Protoss stop mech+vikings? Same way Protoss dealt with it in WoL. Abuse your mobility, use blink stalkers and warp prisms to harass a slow ass mech army and just take more bases than him. Full on mech still probably won't be viable in HoTS.
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South Africa4280 Posts
On June 10 2012 01:28 caradoc wrote:
yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers.
Numbers are easy to change and without doubt will before this is released. Concentrate on the concepts, not the numbers.
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On June 10 2012 01:20 Sandstorm9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. That's quite accurate actually. Warhound + Hellion seems to be the robotic counterpart to MMM. While you might lack stim and drop abilities, you can just a-move. Protoss get a lot of flack for a-moving but with this you dont even have to forcefield, storm, pop guardian shield, or blink. I want Mech to become a viable option, but this is just too noob friendly. A-moving little robots on the battlefield. Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:49 Noocta wrote:On June 10 2012 00:46 Eps wrote:On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. As it stands, it's more like a Mech Marauder. It can't look up. Which means 3/5 of the Factory units can't shoot up. Factory AA is still dependent on Thors and we all know how great those are. I don't understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to give Mech a Galotiah like anti air weapon. Just a straigh long range pure damage doing like 15 ish damage per shot.( no splash anti air bullshit ) Because they have dirt cheap marines.
And if you play Mechanical you don't have Bio Upgrades so using 0-0 badly upgrades Marines ( that btw suck without Stim , CS and enough Medivacs to heal ) .
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On June 10 2012 01:30 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:28 caradoc wrote:
yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers.
Numbers are easy to change and without doubt will before this is released. Concentrate on the concepts, not the numbers.
Right, as I edited into my post you quoted here-- it seems clunky/really difficult to tune properly.
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On June 10 2012 01:26 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 00:28 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 10 2012 00:20 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2012 00:16 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Warhound only takes 2 supply... they looks so big. 220 health too... Seems a bit excessive. With 135 health hellions and 220 health warhounds doing the tanking, a maxed terran mech army will be ridiculously beefy. I can't believe the Warhound has 220 Hp, 1 armor, takes 2 supply, and does 23 damage every 1.3 seconds, yet only costs 150/75... Seems very similar to the stalker but instead of bonus to armored it has an ability against Mech and has no Blink. Except the Warhound has twice the DPS of a stalker, and has about 50% more health, all for only 25/25 more. The Warhound is simply the marauder of mech.
You can't compare it just like that. Upgrade incompatability with Bio/Air has always been an issue. The fact that Factories cost 150/100 while Gateway costs 150/0. 150 to warp in Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DT, HT (Archons technically). Not to mention Warp-ins anywhere.
If you're going to compare units, you need to compare Infrastructure/Production differences as well as Upgrades.
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South Africa4280 Posts
On June 10 2012 01:31 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:30 Yaotzin wrote:On June 10 2012 01:28 caradoc wrote:
yeah, can see that for sure, but isn't it a tad undertuned for the cost? esp. given how slow it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any other use for it, and as-is, it doesn't seem all that effective at sniping BLs or vipers.
Numbers are easy to change and without doubt will before this is released. Concentrate on the concepts, not the numbers. Right, as I edited into my post you quoted here-- it seems clunky/really difficult to tune properly.
Yah, high range units tend to be (hi tank). If anything it'll probably be too strong though. Range is the strongest stat in the game by far.
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On June 10 2012 01:29 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 01:27 Garmer wrote:On June 10 2012 01:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 10 2012 01:03 Garmer wrote:
warhound vs stalker:
23 dps(with the missle) vs 14 dps
220 hp(1ar) vs 80/80(1ar)
207 vs 57/80
194 vs 34/80
181 vs 11/80
168 vs 00/69
155 vs 00/47
142 vs 00/25
129 vs 00/03
129 vs 00/00(warhound kill him without the last attack from the stalker cuz it shoot more fast)
against two
warhound kill one and almost half another so it is worth: 125/50/2 +50%
better than a stalker for sure
I think you misunderstand the missile attack. The warhound does 23 damage with its regular. The missile on the other hand Does 30 damage to a single target at range 7 with a 6 second CD. Does not interrupt the Warhound's regular attack. So basically extra DPS. You also didn't take into account attack rate and range, which the Warhound is also superior. warhound does 23 DAMAGE, not DPS That doesn't make sense because Stalkers do 14 damage not 14 DPS. Their DPS is significantly lower. Either you are wrong about the Warhound or Stalker. You pick.
about stalker, dunno why i have written 14, because in my mind were 10 the dps .... my bad anyway
it's 8 shoots against 7 so stalker befor dying make 63 damage
so basically warhoud can kill TWO stalker lol, and still 31 hp remain, it is worth 125/50/2 + more than 100%
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EPT
