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i think we're not asking the fundamental question here:
- was 5 range necessary on queens? was zerg "underpowered" without it? were hellions "overpowered" without it? keep in mind, time, production and resource costs please.
- was overlord speed necessary on queens? terran has only a few scary unscouted builds. zerglings and roaches acn deal with everything the overlord would miss. was zerg "underpowered" without this new speed? were terran builds "overpowered" and "unscoutable"?
if you answered no, blizzard made the wrong choice
if you answered yes, you probably haven't played anything but zerg at a high level
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On June 09 2012 03:35 c0sm0naut wrote:
i think we're not asking the fundamental question here:
- was 5 range necessary on queens? was zerg "underpowered" without it? were hellions "overpowered" without it? keep in mind, time, production and resource costs please.
- was overlord speed necessary on queens? terran has only a few scary unscouted builds. zerglings and roaches acn deal with everything the overlord would miss. was zerg "underpowered" without this new speed? were terran builds "overpowered" and "unscoutable"?
if you answered no, blizzard made the wrong choice
if you answered yes, you probably haven't played anything but zerg at a high level
The warp-gate malfunctioned. The queen change was intended to counter 5 rax reaper, but it came two years too late. Obviously, Blizzard need to buff warp-gates to fix this.
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On June 08 2012 22:47 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 19:42 Gravesong wrote:
Does anyone know if the Prime vs ST games in the KSL were played pre or post-patch? MKP had an interesting build using fast upgrades for bio and mech that worked against STCurious I believe. Has anyone seen any other terrans take this heavy upgraded biomech build against other zerg with any success? Don't attempt to copy MKP's build, unless you literally have the best micro in the world.
Don't listen this ever. Copy every pro's build and see if you can get it to work. Fearlessly work on your micro skills that your opponents are not developing. You do not need MKP's micro to outplay your opponent. Don't ever think of a build as to difficult for you, or you will never improve.
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It's a bit sad how people say - "let the game develop after the patch etc etc etc", What if we where to see that marines got +20 health and +5 attack in the next patch and terrans would tell P and Z, hey guys! you have to adapt, there is no imbalance here only skill. Some dudes needs to grow a conscience.
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I just can not see how the zerg should be able to have better econ, and stay perfectly safe, and pressure all at the same time. If you watch the Redbull games, there is a game where Stephano plays Illusion. Stephano does the 8:30 ling/baneling/roach build that I always considered an all in. Illusion holds it, but has to lose depots, lose bunker, pull scvs, etc.
Then I looked at Stephano's base after the attack and realized his 2 bases were saturated AND his third was 75% built. This just seems crazy to me. I am terrible with links, but it is the second game on Cloud Kingdom, give it a watch if you would like. I am not exaggerating, his 2 bases were fully saturated and the 3rd was almost done, and this was with an "all in" type of attack hitting Illusion.
To Illusions credit, it took him a while to die.
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according to these statistics :
TvP is balanced, TvZ heavvy in favor of Zerg, PvZ seems balanced
imo PvZ is still so hard against these 12 min maxed styles with endless agression
SC2 in general is going a good way
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On June 09 2012 03:59 Iron_ wrote:
I just can not see how the zerg should be able to have better econ, and stay perfectly safe, and pressure all at the same time. If you watch the Redbull games, there is a game where Stephano plays Illusion. Stephano does the 8:30 ling/baneling/roach build that I always considered an all in. Illusion holds it, but has to lose depots, lose bunker, pull scvs, etc.
Then I looked at Stephano's base after the attack and realized his 2 bases were saturated AND his third was 75% built. This just seems crazy to me. I am terrible with links, but it is the second game on Cloud Kingdom, give it a watch if you would like. I am not exaggerating, his 2 bases were fully saturated and the 3rd was almost done, and this was with an "all in" type of attack hitting Illusion.
To Illusions credit, it took him a while to die.
People call terran the race where all ins aren't really all in because of mules, but zerg all ins are exactly the same since they can just build 20 drones at once behind the attack.
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On June 09 2012 03:59 ][Primarch][ wrote:
It's a bit sad how people say - "let the game develop after the patch etc etc etc", What if we where to see that marines got +20 health and +5 attack in the next patch and terrans would tell P and Z, hey guys! you have to adapt, there is no imbalance here only skill. Some dudes needs to grow a conscience.
That's one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever seen.
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On June 09 2012 03:59 Iron_ wrote:
I just can not see how the zerg should be able to have better econ, and stay perfectly safe, and pressure all at the same time. If you watch the Redbull games, there is a game where Stephano plays Illusion. Stephano does the 8:30 ling/baneling/roach build that I always considered an all in. Illusion holds it, but has to lose depots, lose bunker, pull scvs, etc.
Then I looked at Stephano's base after the attack and realized his 2 bases were saturated AND his third was 75% built. This just seems crazy to me. I am terrible with links, but it is the second game on Cloud Kingdom, give it a watch if you would like. I am not exaggerating, his 2 bases were fully saturated and the 3rd was almost done, and this was with an "all in" type of attack hitting Illusion.
To Illusions credit, it took him a while to die.
Same thing about roaches max at 11-12 min.
Zerg is the only race which can be ultra agressive while outmacroing you.
On June 09 2012 04:22 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 03:59 ][Primarch][ wrote:
It's a bit sad how people say - "let the game develop after the patch etc etc etc", What if we where to see that marines got +20 health and +5 attack in the next patch and terrans would tell P and Z, hey guys! you have to adapt, there is no imbalance here only skill. Some dudes needs to grow a conscience
That's one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever seen.
Not really.
The point is that you can't nerf a race into oblivion and then tell the users of this race to use more ravens or nydus in order to adapt.
That's obscene.
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On June 09 2012 04:22 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 03:59 ][Primarch][ wrote:
It's a bit sad how people say - "let the game develop after the patch etc etc etc", What if we where to see that marines got +20 health and +5 attack in the next patch and terrans would tell P and Z, hey guys! you have to adapt, there is no imbalance here only skill. Some dudes needs to grow a conscience.
That's one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever seen.
he has a point though. there are some changes that are very stupid (like his analogy). he's just letting you know that people have vested interests in their race's success because it directly affects them, and trivializing people's feelings about patching as "metagame issues that will work themselves out" isn't a valid justification for the changes.. if all protoss and zerg got together and got marine damage reduced to 4+2 light or w/e, there would be a shit storm of terran tears everywhere, but if 2/3rds of the community thinks its a good change and terrans just need to adapt their metagame it could go through. with this analogy he is asking for a certain amount of credit due to the terran perspective and i think everyone owes it to the terran community with all the knee jerk buffing and nerfing that has happened in the short time WOL has been out..
iam master random player, i have no bias, but i think that this game has been overpatched and (un)fairly terrans have had to make more adjustments toplay style than the other races
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On June 09 2012 03:59 Iron_ wrote:
I just can not see how the zerg should be able to have better econ, and stay perfectly safe, and pressure all at the same time. If you watch the Redbull games, there is a game where Stephano plays Illusion. Stephano does the 8:30 ling/baneling/roach build that I always considered an all in. Illusion holds it, but has to lose depots, lose bunker, pull scvs, etc.
Then I looked at Stephano's base after the attack and realized his 2 bases were saturated AND his third was 75% built. This just seems crazy to me. I am terrible with links, but it is the second game on Cloud Kingdom, give it a watch if you would like. I am not exaggerating, his 2 bases were fully saturated and the 3rd was almost done, and this was with an "all in" type of attack hitting Illusion.
To Illusions credit, it took him a while to die.
multiple things about this observation:
illusion did not have tanks. that is HUGE. having tanks means you win that game. if he morphs those banes + makes those roaches and you have tanks, he loses instantly.
also, he is ahead in eocn and units, but behind in tech. hatch tech zerg is only capable of being aggressive early, but terran will have a tech advantage going into the midgame, so their 2/2 push (should they survive bane bust) isextremely strong as a followup
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All I can, say is just wait before jumping to conclusions. The queen buff hasn't been out for that long so Terran players are still getting used to it and experimenting with new openings/builds. I do think (as a zerg player) the queen buff was unnecessary. The overlord buff I think is nice (maybe necessary). I am just going to wait for the June statistics to give Terran players more time. When we see those statistics then I will make an ultimate conclusion. As of now I just think that Terran are thrown off balance from the recent patch and just need time to recover.
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On June 09 2012 03:35 c0sm0naut wrote:
i think we're not asking the fundamental question here:
- was 5 range necessary on queens? was zerg "underpowered" without it? were hellions "overpowered" without it? keep in mind, time, production and resource costs please.
- was overlord speed necessary on queens? terran has only a few scary unscouted builds. zerglings and roaches acn deal with everything the overlord would miss. was zerg "underpowered" without this new speed? were terran builds "overpowered" and "unscoutable"?
if you answered no, blizzard made the wrong choice
if you answered yes, you probably haven't played anything but zerg at a high level
But before the patch I had to invest time (spine reroots) or resources (mass ling or roaches) to shoo the hellions away. I want to press sdddddd and I can't because having to have an army before the Hellions can be shooed away means playing fair. IMBALANCE, IMBALANCE I TELL YOU.
In other words, the quoted post, about a million times over. Way too few people consider the big picture when discussing balance. It's all "is this good or bad for me", which is of course a sensible attitude from a player. But when you consider whether the changes were good or not in the abstract, the big picture and overall health of the game are the things that should be considered.
If you really want to buff Zerg defense, there are probably much better ways to do it than to buff the Queens specifically, too. Now they're a Barracks and a Roach that shoots up in one package.
Finally, a visual info-bit on new Queen range in the patch. Pics can be eye-opening at times:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7Zbz3.png)
EDIT:
On June 09 2012 04:34 c0sm0naut wrote:
iam master random player, i have no bias, but i think that this game has been overpatched and (un)fairly terrans have had to make more adjustments toplay style than the other races
This is a great observation too: Blizzard are patching the game like madmen, and utilizing a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel as their tool of choice. This results in many things being nerfed to death instead of being slightly adjusted. And many changes are very kneejerky, sometimes violently so. This is not a good way to manage a game, because sometimes problems with builds aren't due to imbalance but simply them not being figured out or the maps being bad and the like. Which one it is can only be found out over time, which is the one thing Blizzard has not given Starcraft 2.
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On June 08 2012 19:22 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 19:07 mazqo wrote:On June 08 2012 19:02 IMoperator wrote:
Good thing my friends and I have been playing League of Legends a lot more, don't want to deal with TvP or TvZ 'til something gets fixed. They cant magically fix your lack of skill. The queen buff was actually blizzard fixing gold level zergs lack of skill by giving them a super unit when they couldn't use the fully satisfactory one.
I mean a month ago we heard a general consensus that zerg tournament results and results in Korea weren't stacking up. Bit unfair to completely ignore that consensus especially in a matchup terran has historically done very well in. I mean in another month it might be pretty damning that hte queen range change was a mistake. The end of stargate openings along with now increased difficulty in scouting should result in more roach ling plays.
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From a business standpoint, the more balance issues remain in WOL the more people will swtich to HOTS....Profit!
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On June 09 2012 07:12 vorxaw wrote:
From a business standpoint, the more balance issues remain in WOL the more people will swtich to HOTS....Profit!
Herp Derp tournaments are gonna adopt HOTS no matter what. use ur brain. They did what they thought was the right thing to balance the game precisely and they failed, George Bush didnt mastermind 9/11
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Just something I found amusing today.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series/North_America/Nationals/USA
Well this bracket is not doing much to disprove the TLPD winrate stuff from earlier. 20 Terrans walk into a 64 bracket, 2 remain by the round of 16 WB. 18 zergs enter, 9 remain by the round of 16 WB. Of course, you can make the claim that mirrors shaved off the Terran population, but there have been 3 zerg mirrors and 1 terran mirror going into the round of 16.
Ro8 has 1 terran, 3 zergs and 4 toss. After 25 Protoss, 18 Zerg and 20 Terrans start the tournament. With only 1 TvT, whereas there have been several ZvZs and PvPs.
This isn't hugely relevant stats-wise, but funny to see trend wise. Hopefully MLG wont be as lopsided, but who knows?
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Im a top diamond, and I always lose to zerg ! t.t
they all open 4 queen and macro like crazy and I can't do nothing. I try some hellion marine timing push but they always scout me with an overlord. I hate so much that matchup that i seriouly think will quit the game.
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Blizzard has no clue how to balance the game, Terran is complete shit right now.
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On June 09 2012 09:31 Falconblade wrote:Just something I found amusing today. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series/North_America/Nationals/USAWell this bracket is not doing much to disprove the TLPD winrate stuff from earlier. 20 Terrans walk into a 64 bracket, 2 remain by the round of 16 WB. 18 zergs enter, 9 remain by the round of 16 WB. Of course, you can make the claim that mirrors shaved off the Terran population, but there have been 3 zerg mirrors and 1 terran mirror going into the round of 16. Ro8 has 1 terran, 3 zergs and 4 toss. After 25 Protoss, 18 Zerg and 20 Terrans start the tournament. With only 1 TvT, whereas there have been several ZvZs and PvPs. This isn't hugely relevant stats-wise, but funny to see trend wise. Hopefully MLG wont be as lopsided, but who knows?
Europe and NA have always been Zerg/Protoss dominated for as long as I can remember though. Note that before Thorzain won DH this year, the last non-Korean Terran to win a major tournament was....Thorzain all the way back in 2010. It was always the Korean Terrans who dominated everything. Even those guys have been struggling quite a bit since the patch though. I think many people, including Blizzard, underestimated just how much change this patch would bring. The moment this patch hit, the tide in TvZ completely changed starting from the final couple rounds of Code A R24 leading into Up and Downs and eventually to current GSTL season.
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EPT
