On June 11 2012 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote: Perhaps somebody can explain something to me. Why do korean terrans still use reactor hellion opening? Why not more openings designed towards stopping the 3rd base? Even before the queen buff, zergs were already adapting to the reactor hellions by getting 4 queens (and I doubt that the queen buff had such a tremendous impact on ZvT, I think it effected ZvP much more). Or getting 3 queens and a spine crawler to push them back, or 4 queens and a spine to be very aggressive with creep.
I mean, at this phase of the game hellions are basically worthless at denying the 3rd, so why invest in them at all when you arent going to use them for.... basically anything? You just delay your core marine composition and siege tank production.
Terrans just seem so absolutely stuck on that opening, and I cant figure out why.
The queen buff had like no impact on zvp at all. I am kinda shocked you think it didn't change zvt, but effected zvp more when to me there has been like no change in zvp xD.
Reactor hellion is still good, they can still deny creep (not as good as before just like the third). There really is no opening terran can do (other then 1 base all in, proxy 2 gate) that will stop a zerg from getting a third. Going cloak banshee? Every zergs third will be finished by the time cloak finishes and are fine and that's the only possible way to deny the third tbh (except on taldarim or something).
Queen buff made a significant difference in pvz, scouting gas is now impossible, and early zealot only or zealot/stalker pressure is much weaker.
On June 11 2012 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote: Perhaps somebody can explain something to me. Why do korean terrans still use reactor hellion opening? Why not more openings designed towards stopping the 3rd base? Even before the queen buff, zergs were already adapting to the reactor hellions by getting 4 queens (and I doubt that the queen buff had such a tremendous impact on ZvT, I think it effected ZvP much more). Or getting 3 queens and a spine crawler to push them back, or 4 queens and a spine to be very aggressive with creep.
I mean, at this phase of the game hellions are basically worthless at denying the 3rd, so why invest in them at all when you arent going to use them for.... basically anything? You just delay your core marine composition and siege tank production.
Terrans just seem so absolutely stuck on that opening, and I cant figure out why.
The queen buff had like no impact on zvp at all. I am kinda shocked you think it didn't change zvt, but effected zvp more when to me there has been like no change in zvp xD.
Reactor hellion is still good, they can still deny creep (not as good as before just like the third). There really is no opening terran can do (other then 1 base all in, proxy 2 gate) that will stop a zerg from getting a third. Going cloak banshee? Every zergs third will be finished by the time cloak finishes and are fine and that's the only possible way to deny the third tbh (except on taldarim or something).
Queen buff made a significant difference in pvz, scouting gas is now impossible, and early zealot only or zealot/stalker pressure is much weaker.
No. It has died. You can't do anymore zealot/stalker pressure if you dont realy put money in it, like 3 gates.
I think the logic here is very flawed: the sudden increased in win rate is to be expected because the buff JUST LANDED which means there isn't time for terran to develope new strategies and adapting to it YET.
We should be looking at a longer time period instead of "omfg what a stupid change now Z is imba op, revert it back now"
Thing is, the buff was unnecessary in the first place. Should we just pile on nerf after nerf until the top Terrans just stop winning or something? Thus far it's been new build, nerf, new build, nerf, new build, nerf ad nauseam. People congratulate toss for starting to use double forge or warp prisms when those were done after buff encouragements, not after sledgehammer nerfs forcing exploration. It's just all kinds of sad. Hell, it's impacting my enjoyment of watching SC2, I already basically stopped playing because Blizzard's constant sledgehammer patches were depressing me.
Some people say the insane creep spread is fun. You know? It isn't, really. Back in the day the Ice Fisher build was super exciting because it was so greedy. When insane greed is safe standard play it's not very fun anymore. It's like in Formula 1 racing there's now more overtaking/passing, but as a result of what? Because they implemented a "overtake driver in front of me" button in the form of the DRS, not because of brilliant driving like happens in turns or as a result of being able to drive a lighter car due to great pit stop strategy (which they killed admittedly due to danger of fires). The DRS is in essence overpowered and thus the takeovers from it are a foregone conclusion, not a result of good play/driving. This makes them boring.
On June 11 2012 18:01 ETisME wrote: I think the logic here is very flawed: the sudden increased in win rate is to be expected because the buff JUST LANDED which means there isn't time for terran to develope new strategies and adapting to it YET.
We should be looking at a longer time period instead of "omfg what a stupid change now Z is imba op, revert it back now"
Yeah, Terran should stop whining and start to work on new strats again, so that blizzard have something to nerf.
On June 11 2012 18:01 ETisME wrote: I think the logic here is very flawed: the sudden increased in win rate is to be expected because the buff JUST LANDED which means there isn't time for terran to develope new strategies and adapting to it YET.
We should be looking at a longer time period instead of "omfg what a stupid change now Z is imba op, revert it back now"
Why should we wait and accept a bad change to the game instead of saying "no, it's awful, revert it?" because whether you believe it to be OP or not, I don't think I've seen a lot of people thinking it was a good and needed change to the matchup.
I dont see big deal. Protoss has had multiple months at ~40% vs both other races according to your chart. They recovered and so will terran with one off month. Terran still won last GSL.
Makes me wonder if queens starting with 50 energy (which everyone was in an uproar about) would actually have been more balanced than the increased queen range.
I can't wait to see ZvP winrates for next month. Any form of pressure from Protoss is now forced to be completely all in or have a far higher risk of failing. Small conflicts with minor groups of units are now far more Zerg favoured and easy to prepare for.
On June 11 2012 18:01 ETisME wrote: I think the logic here is very flawed: the sudden increased in win rate is to be expected because the buff JUST LANDED which means there isn't time for terran to develope new strategies and adapting to it YET.
We should be looking at a longer time period instead of "omfg what a stupid change now Z is imba op, revert it back now"
Of course. But you cannot expect people to use common sense in a TL balance thread :p
On June 12 2012 06:08 SeaSwift wrote: I can't wait to see ZvP winrates for next month. Any form of pressure from Protoss is now forced to be completely all in or have a far higher risk of failing. Small conflicts with minor groups of units are now far more Zerg favoured and easy to prepare for.
It still might end up being Toss favoured, but every game Toss wins is basically from an all-in. I wish there were a way to check "games that last more than 10-15 minutes" and see how many times Toss is taking down well-controlled Infestor/BL. I bet it's like 20% of the time.
On June 12 2012 06:04 GoodRamen wrote: seems that the queen's buff is a little bit too much mb make it an upgrade at lair tech would be better
The whole point of the buff was to improve zerg chances early game, making it lair tech would do all of nothing, and be utterly pointless, and not actually achieve what Blizzard was hoping to achieve. The problem was early hellion runbys which would destory a zerg economy with little or no risk to a terran, who could freely take three CCs behind the pressure.
The obvious suggestion woudl be to reduce the bugg to give queens range 4 instead of 3 or 5.
On June 11 2012 17:34 Jojo131 wrote: ZvT is still my weakest match-up D;
Tips n tricks anyone? Mid-game is a bitch
take your free third at 5 min and defend with pure queen. Make only drones till you saturate all three bases. Use nitropack overlords to scout for incoming all-ins. Then tech to hive at 11 min while defending with ling infestor and collect your win.
I feel this is how zerg should have been from the start and that its rather a shortcoming of the terran race. Maybe if they reverted some nerfs for terran and made mech more viable before hots things would be much different.
On June 11 2012 18:01 ETisME wrote: I think the logic here is very flawed: the sudden increased in win rate is to be expected because the buff JUST LANDED which means there isn't time for terran to develope new strategies and adapting to it YET.
We should be looking at a longer time period instead of "omfg what a stupid change now Z is imba op, revert it back now"
There are no new strategies possible anymore. There are luckbuilds that die to roach ling bling allin 100%, so there is some innovation, but it remains a luckbuild tough. If you want to play safe, then you have to play a certain way. 2 base timing pushes work, but 1) if the zerg scouts it you die, 2) if the zerg drones very hard with a 5:00 third, then he will be able to make a giant army and stop your 2 base timing push = GG. Then there is 3 base, and that's the most safe build atm. Problem: creepspread + lategame infestor + hive = very hard to beat.
I want to refer to a recent interview from DRG:
--> he basicly admits that terran is really weak atm.
In 2 weeks you will see pro terrans do the exact same thing, because there is just nothing else viable. You will sometimes see MKP do a 1rax FE --> 3 rax --> marine push, but this just dies straight to any roach ling bling bust (if he moves out), so it's basicly a luckbuild. Another strategy is the banshee + hellion into mech strat, which works too, but the build hopes for the zerg to fuck up his defense.
EPT
