EPTTLPD Winrates May 2012 - Page 36
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On June 12 2012 06:35 Kireak wrote: I feel this is how zerg should have been from the start and that its rather a shortcoming of the terran race. Maybe if they reverted some nerfs for terran and made mech more viable before hots things would be much different. It's not really a shortcoming of the Terran race. Zerg shouldn't be extremely fragile in the early game, but neither should it have an economy as exponential as the one provided by spawn larvae. Zerg should be able to safely macro, but shouldn't be able to automatically run over the opponent after doing so. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players. The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful. I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement). Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On June 12 2012 07:52 AKomrade wrote: I don't think the patch alone did this much. Even before Vtech overlords and Katyusha rocket queens were introduced, Z was really in a good place. The styles seen at MLG and RB Lan had already been in place/developing in April. The "low win rate" for T would've happened anyways (but closer to 50% than 35%), but the patch was the executing blow. There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players. The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful. I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement). Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. One thing that I think would be helpful (instead of buffing T which would effect TvP), is either a) putting a longer CD on creep tumors or b) requiring more queen energy to make a creep tumor. In both cases it makes spreading creep a little bit harder, that way if you decide to build a third CC, you don't have to hope the creep spread is already at your third base before you can land it. I personally feel like b is better, since it now forces zergs to consider should they spawn the next tumor or save the energy for transfuse in case of an attack. I liked before the patch where some people were legitimately good at spreading creep, they would start the next tumor as soon as the CD was off, now it just feels like everyone is getting 6 queens anyway, 3 of them are just spreading creep everywhere. No need to worry about saving energy for transfuse, since a new creep tumor is pretty cheap. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On June 12 2012 07:52 AKomrade wrote: I don't think the patch alone did this much. Even before Vtech overlords and Katyusha rocket queens were introduced, Z was really in a good place. The styles seen at MLG and RB Lan had already been in place/developing in April. The "low win rate" for T would've happened anyways (but closer to 50% than 35%), but the patch was the executing blow. There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players. The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful. I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement). Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote: Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. Or they could just revert the Ghost nerf so that Terran could actually play for late game from behind and actually be cost efficient versus Z like they are suppose to be anyways. Anyone that complained that Ghosts were overpowered was a Z player that was raging because they allowed a Terran to split a map despite multiple ways to repeatedly crush a Terran player trying to mass Ghosts up. Z has the advantage early/mid/late now because Terran is playing in the dark for almost 95% of the game. The 5% is when the Terran is either moving out off a Reactor Helion build or really early with a Reaper. Otherwise, a Terran player plays in the dark almost the entire game. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote: Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. I would honestly like to see how the game would play with a 4.00 Raven speed (slightly faster than Mutalisks), and maybe with 7 range on HSM. | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
On June 12 2012 08:10 FabledIntegral wrote: Or we could just revert the stupid queen range buff T_T Queen range wouldn't really help since the builds Terran uses would still be the same. The problem is that T really only has two or three options to slow Z, all of which have the same counters that cripple or kill T. Queen range removal would simply keep creep from being at your front door 12 minutes into the game, which is only part of the problem. On June 12 2012 08:04 convention wrote: One thing that I think would be helpful (instead of buffing T which would effect TvP), is either a) putting a longer CD on creep tumors or b) requiring more queen energy to make a creep tumor. In both cases it makes spreading creep a little bit harder, that way if you decide to build a third CC, you don't have to hope the creep spread is already at your third base before you can land it. I personally feel like b is better, since it now forces zergs to consider should they spawn the next tumor or save the energy for transfuse in case of an attack. The changes I had in mind were the BF nerf and Snipe, things that wouldn't skew the balance in TvP more than a couple wins here or there since mech would still have the same problems it does in vP and Snipe would still take two shots to kill an HT and roughly be just as effective vs chargelots. On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote: Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. You're right about the Raven. If they made it a little more accessible, you could even justify two Starports, one reactored and one with a TL and open up the medivac upgrade for use, or just one with a TL. Maybe if it cost 150/150 or 200/100, you could make one or two, grab the ups for medivac and raven and so long as you kept your ravens alive, you'd have much more effective medivacs which would let players choose between SK terran, MMT or a combination of the two. If they removed the auto turret and replaced it with another spell, T probably wouldn't have the problems in vP OR vZ it does now. I don't think that the raven is really going to be THE solution to the endgame since its already a backbreaking effort just to be able to get to that tech. If they tweaked the raven and changed hellions, it would be an effective change for vZ without rebreaking TvP. | ||
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Darth Caedus
United States326 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 12 2012 09:49 Darth Caedus wrote: It's the second month in the last 12 that Zerg has a win rate over 50% vT. Calm down folks. ??? What kind of reasoning is this. The last 12 months are irrelevant to what's happening now. There have been so many changes to the game (from patches) that we aren't even playing the same matchups. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On June 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote: ??? What kind of reasoning is this. The last 12 months are irrelevant to what's happening now. There have been so many changes to the game (from patches) that we aren't even playing the same matchups. The reasoning is that there hasn't been enough time for us to ascertain anything, that the Terran nerfs were justified because of 12 months of high Terran win-rates, and that there is no reason to believe that the current build will not be balanced after Terrans have some time to adjust. We're seeing some of that adjustment now; for example, the race distributions at the top of MLG Anaheim were as close to perfectly even as is possible. Obviously, that's a minuscule sample size, but it shows that the sky isn't falling. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On June 12 2012 10:06 Ace.Xile wrote: Why do people keep posting these things and then trying to rile everyone up. A month's worth of data with an exceptionally small player pool that include changes mean nothing. It's truly impossible right now to determine how balanced the races are, especially using these samples or any. The meta game changes every month, new strats come out EVERY WEEK, buffs come out every couple of months. You're not going to find any "proof" short of baseless comments with things changing so much. People who say bullshit like this make me laugh. No, the meta has not changed at all. The only changes to the meta occurred due to direct interference from Blizzard. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On June 12 2012 10:07 superstartran wrote: People who say bullshit like this make me laugh. No, the meta has not changed at all. The only changes to the meta occurred due to direct interference from Blizzard. Really? So you think that nothing has changed in the past 3 months? Trends haven't changed in build usage, new builds haven't popped up, some players haven't gotten worse and some better? Your views are narrow minded as can be sorry, but pulling random anecdotes and saying WELL NO ITS ONLY BLIZZARD doesn't make sense. You can go watch and check the trends and see how the meta has changed over the past year. Shit 6 months ago people were still using lots of mutas in zvt. Yet ironically the meta changed from muta to infestor with almost no buff to terran or zerg when considering the unit composition. I don't doubt that the recent change from last month, may be due to the fact of the queen buff, but that doesn't mean the matchup is imbalanced it just means that terrans have yet to find a new way to work around it. If there isn't then it's imbalanced, if there is (which there probably is) then well see where that goes. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On June 12 2012 10:07 superstartran wrote: No, the meta has not changed at all. The only changes to the meta occurred due to direct interference from Blizzard. Thats not entirely true | ||
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DMKraft
476 Posts
Pressure with reaper: Nerfed, in too many ways. Bunker pressure: Nerfed ^10 Hmmm marauders aren't good, guess we will Hellion pressure: Nerfed. We are just working our way up the tiers, Ghosts are nerfed already, tanks too, Thor pressure? | ||
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