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On June 12 2012 14:13 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate. Oh goody!~ In my opinion as soon as infestors got the full-stop it was pretty much just a matter of time until zergs became the strongest race. The fact that blizzard nerfed the ghost for having too many roles it could fill means that the infestor should get nerfed as well, or at least change fungal. One infestor and good map awareness shuts down drops, infestors+army creates a combination that will stop enemy armies from retreating/microing or give the zerg army a free chance to escape. Infestors are viable for pretty much every situation ever, and fungal is so killer to terran armies since they can't micro out and the aoe that zerg can bring to bear when terran can't micro away means that it becomes a decidedly one-sided slaughter. In my opinion (and this mostly applies at the lower levels, although it happens more often than i would like to pro terrans) the power of the infestor creates engagements that are entirely dependent on how well the zerg can use his infestors, not on the talent of both players. Hit fungals, blings or ultras murder terran army, or vikings get wrecked and blords destroy the ground army. Ling/bling/muta was more fun for me to watch because splitting marines against blings and focusfiring blings and using the blings to hunt for marines, mutas to focusfire tanks etc was such an awesome dynamic to watch. Now its just... fungals? oops, there goes any chance of a favorable T engagement (assuming equal army sizes). Apologies if this is too much qq, just very frustrating to face zergs when they can just mass queen->infestor hivetech to win :|
I agree that infestors are too strong but I think that if you step back from your own bias it becomes really obvious that they are pretty much the only unit zerg has that enables victory. From a protoss perspective, nerfing infestors is like nerfing colossus. We can talk all day about how they are poorly designed etc etc but at the end of the day Toss without collo would have single digit win percentages and the same for zerg without infestor.
Our best hope is HoTS at this point so just be happy it is right around the corner.
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On June 12 2012 13:13 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:09 Ace.Xile wrote:On June 12 2012 10:07 superstartran wrote:On June 12 2012 10:06 Ace.Xile wrote:
Why do people keep posting these things and then trying to rile everyone up. A month's worth of data with an exceptionally small player pool that include changes mean nothing. It's truly impossible right now to determine how balanced the races are, especially using these samples or any. The meta game changes every month, new strats come out EVERY WEEK, buffs come out every couple of months. You're not going to find any "proof" short of baseless comments with things changing so much. People who say bullshit like this make me laugh. No, the meta has not changed at all. The only changes to the meta occurred due to direct interference from Blizzard. Really? So you think that nothing has changed in the past 3 months? Trends haven't changed in build usage, new builds haven't popped up, some players haven't gotten worse and some better? Your views are narrow minded as can be sorry, but pulling random anecdotes and saying WELL NO ITS ONLY BLIZZARD doesn't make sense. You can go watch and check the trends and see how the meta has changed over the past year. Shit 6 months ago people were still using lots of mutas in zvt. Yet ironically the meta changed from muta to infestor with almost no buff to terran or zerg when considering the unit composition. I don't doubt that the recent change from last month, may be due to the fact of the queen buff, but that doesn't mean the matchup is imbalanced it just means that terrans have yet to find a new way to work around it. If there isn't then it's imbalanced, if there is (which there probably is) then well see where that goes. You're a fucking retard. Period. I say this because if you played Terran at all you would know that Terran's have been using the Reactor Helion expand and the Helion = > Banshee expand transition SINCE THE FUCKING BETA. Those are the two builds that are still viable today, and are the only builds you will ever see outside of an extremely gimmicky build. Flash has been showing off some 14 CC = > Triple CC play, but there's massive holes in that because his Siege Timing is so late.
Your "since the fucking beta" is an exaggeration. The beta was only 2 rax openings if you were aiming for a macro game or some crazy 6+ rax all-ins.
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These win rates just mean that standard Terran / protoss builds are no longer working against zergs due to the queen change and hence change in zerg mentality, it's most exaggerated in Bo1's i.e. GSTL
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_Team_League_Season_2/Statistics
because players usually dont have specifically prepared builds in Bo1 situation, they can only count on standard builds, which is why zergs are dominating so hard compared to terran especially. In Bo3 or >3 situations you can still prepare one off builds to win the series because you know the match up / map in advance so it's not nearly as significant. Terrans "just" need to figure out standard play ways of winning against the new zerg play style of fast defendeable third which is really difficult.
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On June 12 2012 13:28 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:05 Whatson wrote:
Zergs are just raping everything in GSL and GSTL right now ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Lo9v.png) lol.
come on + Show Spoiler +
there was no tvz played in the code s group yesterday if u look at it briefly...
User was warned for this post
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On June 12 2012 14:26 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 14:13 GTPGlitch wrote:I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate. Oh goody!~ In my opinion as soon as infestors got the full-stop it was pretty much just a matter of time until zergs became the strongest race. The fact that blizzard nerfed the ghost for having too many roles it could fill means that the infestor should get nerfed as well, or at least change fungal. One infestor and good map awareness shuts down drops, infestors+army creates a combination that will stop enemy armies from retreating/microing or give the zerg army a free chance to escape. Infestors are viable for pretty much every situation ever, and fungal is so killer to terran armies since they can't micro out and the aoe that zerg can bring to bear when terran can't micro away means that it becomes a decidedly one-sided slaughter. In my opinion (and this mostly applies at the lower levels, although it happens more often than i would like to pro terrans) the power of the infestor creates engagements that are entirely dependent on how well the zerg can use his infestors, not on the talent of both players. Hit fungals, blings or ultras murder terran army, or vikings get wrecked and blords destroy the ground army. Ling/bling/muta was more fun for me to watch because splitting marines against blings and focusfiring blings and using the blings to hunt for marines, mutas to focusfire tanks etc was such an awesome dynamic to watch. Now its just... fungals? oops, there goes any chance of a favorable T engagement (assuming equal army sizes). Apologies if this is too much qq, just very frustrating to face zergs when they can just mass queen->infestor hivetech to win :| I agree that infestors are too strong but I think that if you step back from your own bias it becomes really obvious that they are pretty much the only unit zerg has that enables victory. From a protoss perspective, nerfing infestors is like nerfing colossus. We can talk all day about how they are poorly designed etc etc but at the end of the day Toss without collo would have single digit win percentages and the same for zerg without infestor. Our best hope is HoTS at this point so just be happy it is right around the corner.
What? Changing the infestor so it doesn't cripple other races chances at fighting a hive-tech zerg army is not a crippling nerf =_=
It will either create a resurgence in other styles of zerg play (which are less boring to watch) or create transitionary periods that aren't just queens+crawlers+infestors with a small army waiting for the hive tech to pop. Ideally there would be a way to give zerg an opportunity to actually use lair tech instead of just durping around with infestors until hive tech was ready to destroy Terran/Protoss.
You can't really say you enjoy playing against either a 12-min roach max allin or crawlerspam blord attacks, right?
The ability that infestors give for turtle play means that its alins or lategame army, all the time. Completely one-dimensional 
Terrans "just" need to figure out standard play ways of winning against the new zerg play style of fast defendeable third which is really difficult.
Don't forget they can always switch from droning into allins if you play too greedy :L
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On June 12 2012 14:30 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:13 superstartran wrote:On June 12 2012 10:09 Ace.Xile wrote:On June 12 2012 10:07 superstartran wrote:On June 12 2012 10:06 Ace.Xile wrote:
Why do people keep posting these things and then trying to rile everyone up. A month's worth of data with an exceptionally small player pool that include changes mean nothing. It's truly impossible right now to determine how balanced the races are, especially using these samples or any. The meta game changes every month, new strats come out EVERY WEEK, buffs come out every couple of months. You're not going to find any "proof" short of baseless comments with things changing so much. People who say bullshit like this make me laugh. No, the meta has not changed at all. The only changes to the meta occurred due to direct interference from Blizzard. Really? So you think that nothing has changed in the past 3 months? Trends haven't changed in build usage, new builds haven't popped up, some players haven't gotten worse and some better? Your views are narrow minded as can be sorry, but pulling random anecdotes and saying WELL NO ITS ONLY BLIZZARD doesn't make sense. You can go watch and check the trends and see how the meta has changed over the past year. Shit 6 months ago people were still using lots of mutas in zvt. Yet ironically the meta changed from muta to infestor with almost no buff to terran or zerg when considering the unit composition. I don't doubt that the recent change from last month, may be due to the fact of the queen buff, but that doesn't mean the matchup is imbalanced it just means that terrans have yet to find a new way to work around it. If there isn't then it's imbalanced, if there is (which there probably is) then well see where that goes. You're a fucking retard. Period. I say this because if you played Terran at all you would know that Terran's have been using the Reactor Helion expand and the Helion = > Banshee expand transition SINCE THE FUCKING BETA. Those are the two builds that are still viable today, and are the only builds you will ever see outside of an extremely gimmicky build. Flash has been showing off some 14 CC = > Triple CC play, but there's massive holes in that because his Siege Timing is so late. Your "since the fucking beta" is an exaggeration. The beta was only 2 rax openings if you were aiming for a macro game or some crazy 6+ rax all-ins.
Nope, it's true, reactor hellion expand was a standard tvz build since week 2 or 3 of beta. I know because it was my standard tvz build all the way through the beta. Also, shocker, so was 1/1/1. Marine tank didnt become the standard tvz composition until towards the end of beta though, but that was probably because mech was fantastic with super tanks.
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They did happen but I hardly remember them being any more standard than proxy reaper rush.
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On June 07 2012 20:58 LimitSEA wrote:
Zerg doing well now. Terrans just need to figure out new ways to deal with the queen buff and it'll go back to normal.
That's all Terran's have been doing since the game was released! When was the last time zerg had to figure out something new for anything?? Terrans have been nerfed in every balance patch since release, and you wanna know the THREE things zergs were nerfed on?
Neural Parasite down to 7 range from 9, Infestory speed lowered by .25 (oh boy), and Ultralisk -5 damage to armored units.
I hate how zergs always talk down to Terrans like "just stop bitching and adapt" when that's all we ever do because Blizzard has some vendetta against us.
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Wow, people take these stats waaay to seriously. These are only tournament stats and even then you have to take into account seedings (like were there 3 bad Terrans in a group with DRG at some event?, etc.) and a thousand other variables. There really wasn't a single tournament where Terran just bombed, and there were a couple where zerg did pretty well, but overall, things looked pretty decent. And yes, when things swing, they tend to swing hard, but seriously people, its been a couple weeks. Chill out.
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On June 12 2012 14:56 theBOOCH wrote:
Wow, people take these stats waaay to seriously. These are only tournament stats and even then you have to take into account seedings (like were there 3 bad Terrans in a group with DRG at some event?, etc.) and a thousand other variables. There really wasn't a single tournament where Terran just bombed, and there were a couple where zerg did pretty well, but overall, things looked pretty decent. And yes, when things swing, they tend to swing hard, but seriously people, its been a couple weeks. Chill out.
Zerg pros even said that the buffs were unnecessary-how much more obvious does it need to be?
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On June 12 2012 14:21 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 12:47 canikizu wrote:On June 12 2012 12:20 nkr wrote:On June 12 2012 10:29 Gyro_SC2 wrote:On June 12 2012 10:09 magnaflow wrote:On June 12 2012 10:07 superstartran wrote:On June 12 2012 10:06 Ace.Xile wrote:
Why do people keep posting these things and then trying to rile everyone up. A month's worth of data with an exceptionally small player pool that include changes mean nothing. It's truly impossible right now to determine how balanced the races are, especially using these samples or any. The meta game changes every month, new strats come out EVERY WEEK, buffs come out every couple of months. You're not going to find any "proof" short of baseless comments with things changing so much. No, the meta has not changed at all. The only changes to the meta occurred due to direct interference from Blizzard. Thats not entirely true OK, do you think its normal that terran have no option in the lategame vs zerg ? And seriouly do you think someone will find the answer to the terran lategame next month ? The terran foreigner community is dying right now because of stupid patch like that. What about when bomber destroyed stephano lategame with bio+raven, or that doesn't count? That is a one hit wonder, dude. Plays like that will never make it to main stream strategy, because if it got popular, people can figure out the timing, unit composition, strategies to kill it ez. You really think that if Bomber used that strat against Stephano right now, he could win again? I don't think so. Unless are you suggesting Terran should play more gimmicky strats like that? It's not gimmicky, it's fairly solid. I've played bio/raven or bio/shee (depending on what my opponent goes) for the last year now. You have no idea how many people messaged me about that game when they were like "dude, Bomber used your strat!" Of course, it's not my strat, it's just something I do, I just found it amusing it actually appeared for once.
As I said, if it is a good strat, pros will practice it internally, refine it, and make it main stream strats. If not, they will only use it as a gimmicky strategy. Pro players spend their time to do stuff like this. Until that strategy becomes more popular it will remain so.
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On June 12 2012 09:13 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:On June 12 2012 07:52 AKomrade wrote:
I don't think the patch alone did this much. Even before Vtech overlords and Katyusha rocket queens were introduced, Z was really in a good place. The styles seen at MLG and RB Lan had already been in place/developing in April. The "low win rate" for T would've happened anyways (but closer to 50% than 35%), but the patch was the executing blow.
There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players.
The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful.
I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement).
Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. I would honestly like to see how the game would play with a 4.00 Raven speed (slightly faster than Mutalisks), and maybe with 7 range on HSM.
Ravens with higher speed would be much better. I don't get why blizzard made them so damn slow?
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On June 12 2012 14:56 theBOOCH wrote:
Wow, people take these stats waaay to seriously. These are only tournament stats and even then you have to take into account seedings (like were there 3 bad Terrans in a group with DRG at some event?, etc.) and a thousand other variables. There really wasn't a single tournament where Terran just bombed, and there were a couple where zerg did pretty well, but overall, things looked pretty decent. And yes, when things swing, they tend to swing hard, but seriously people, its been a couple weeks. Chill out.
Ask any terran how do they do in tvz. Their experience will be in line with the stats, I promise you.
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On June 12 2012 14:56 theBOOCH wrote:
Wow, people take these stats waaay to seriously. These are only tournament stats and even then you have to take into account seedings (like were there 3 bad Terrans in a group with DRG at some event?, etc.) and a thousand other variables. There really wasn't a single tournament where Terran just bombed, and there were a couple where zerg did pretty well, but overall, things looked pretty decent. And yes, when things swing, they tend to swing hard, but seriously people, its been a couple weeks. Chill out.
Honestly, Terrans are not just flustered about the winrates, but the feeling that there are no options. After a few years you grow tired of MMM or tank marine that will get stomped by broodlords.
Bio with air lategame seems to be the only slightly viable option for terran, which still isnt looking that impressive compared to the other races. so what gives...
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On June 12 2012 16:00 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 14:21 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 12 2012 12:47 canikizu wrote:On June 12 2012 12:20 nkr wrote:On June 12 2012 10:29 Gyro_SC2 wrote:On June 12 2012 10:09 magnaflow wrote:On June 12 2012 10:07 superstartran wrote:On June 12 2012 10:06 Ace.Xile wrote:
Why do people keep posting these things and then trying to rile everyone up. A month's worth of data with an exceptionally small player pool that include changes mean nothing. It's truly impossible right now to determine how balanced the races are, especially using these samples or any. The meta game changes every month, new strats come out EVERY WEEK, buffs come out every couple of months. You're not going to find any "proof" short of baseless comments with things changing so much. No, the meta has not changed at all. The only changes to the meta occurred due to direct interference from Blizzard. Thats not entirely true OK, do you think its normal that terran have no option in the lategame vs zerg ? And seriouly do you think someone will find the answer to the terran lategame next month ? The terran foreigner community is dying right now because of stupid patch like that. What about when bomber destroyed stephano lategame with bio+raven, or that doesn't count? That is a one hit wonder, dude. Plays like that will never make it to main stream strategy, because if it got popular, people can figure out the timing, unit composition, strategies to kill it ez. You really think that if Bomber used that strat against Stephano right now, he could win again? I don't think so. Unless are you suggesting Terran should play more gimmicky strats like that? It's not gimmicky, it's fairly solid. I've played bio/raven or bio/shee (depending on what my opponent goes) for the last year now. You have no idea how many people messaged me about that game when they were like "dude, Bomber used your strat!" Of course, it's not my strat, it's just something I do, I just found it amusing it actually appeared for once. As I said, if it is a good strat, pros will practice it internally, refine it, and make it main stream strats. If not, they will only use it as a gimmicky strategy. Pro players spend their time to do stuff like this. Until that strategy becomes more popular it will remain so.
To say something is gimmicky simply because it isn't standard is absolutely absurd. I assume you mean it'll remain gimmicky in the sense it's a build you can only pull out occasionally to catch your opponent by surprise? Well that's a more valid argument, but at the same time, if you look at the build itself it's quite solid. The Bio has tons of mobility, is good vs the standard infestor ling, while the Raven switch is to use up all the extra gas you accumulated from going bio. And since you have the starports, you can churn out vikings too depending on your situation, or like how I play, if they go Ultra instead of BL, you can crank out banshees (fungal blows vs spread out cloakshee), since you already have the infrastructure. It's significantly more flexible than you'd realize, you don't HAVE to get the Ravens, you play reactively.
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After winning my last 20 ZvTs without breaking a sweat... I have reverted my opinion.
Queen range too strong. 4-6 queen strats w/ 2 roaches lets you take like a 7 min third no matter what Terran is doing. Then just double ups --> Infestor --> Ultra, then double expand and contain Terran on 3 bases, switch to BLs if marauder count gets too high.
I've actually being going 3 base roach/ling/bane --> 4 base muta/ling/bane. I get the Terran to make marauders, and no turrets, then bam surprise 15 mutas. It's more challenging than the boring turtle style of ling/infestor/freewinultras.
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On June 12 2012 18:55 Flonomenalz wrote:
After winning my last 20 ZvTs without breaking a sweat... I have reverted my opinion.
Queen range too strong. 4-6 queen strats w/ 2 roaches lets you take like a 7 min third no matter what Terran is doing. Then just double ups --> Infestor --> Ultra, then double expand and contain Terran on 3 bases, switch to BLs if marauder count gets too high.
I've actually being going 3 base roach/ling/bane --> 4 base muta/ling/bane. I get the Terran to make marauders, and no turrets, then bam surprise 15 mutas. It's more challenging than the boring turtle style of ling/infestor/freewinultras.
Just lost a game like that yesterday... Really strong play if you don't know what to expect
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i dont really know whats there to discuss
if i may quote drg and idra
drg: " terran is not good now"
idra: "zvt is zerg favoured"
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z vs t is just completely broken which is really hard to get fixed due to other match ups.
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Maybe there will be a terran answer in "metagame". Right atm it seems as terran players are in all kinds of trouble because of the new patch. Their options to adept seem limited and very risky.
But keep in mind that "metagame is a two sided thing. Are we sure that zerg have already adapted to the changes?
Are zerg players already fully aware of the possibilities they have on hand now? Have they fully discovered yet with what they can get away by now? It's quite normal to see winrates go up/down just after a patch. But as it stands this time it could get worse and not better.
All bias aside, I think we can all agree on tha fact that if a zerg is free to drone unhindered he will finally overwhelm you in production. New queens and faster ovis give zerg a free ticket to do so. There is no downside of producing queens early on and they assist your gameplay troughout the later stages. Good zerg players have like 15-20 active (!!!) tumors on their disposal. Before patch, very good creepspread was one thing that sepeated the best from the rest. Now it's just... free for all.
So maybe my granny was right: "Boy, don't fix... you know the rest.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/185/nickcage.jpeg){kind=icon}
