|
Should we expect Blizzard to patch WoL after 1.5? HotS is on the way, so I kind of doubt.
|
On June 12 2012 17:24 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 09:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:On June 12 2012 07:52 AKomrade wrote:
I don't think the patch alone did this much. Even before Vtech overlords and Katyusha rocket queens were introduced, Z was really in a good place. The styles seen at MLG and RB Lan had already been in place/developing in April. The "low win rate" for T would've happened anyways (but closer to 50% than 35%), but the patch was the executing blow.
There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players.
The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful.
I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement).
Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. I would honestly like to see how the game would play with a 4.00 Raven speed (slightly faster than Mutalisks), and maybe with 7 range on HSM. Ravens with higher speed would be much better. I don't get why blizzard made them so damn slow?
If they were too fast, HSM would be a 100% hit. I guess that's why Blizzard made them slow, but hell they're way too slow. A zerg on creep can dodge a HSM with ease.
|
looks not too bad. tvz doesn't seem balanced but i think terran just needs some time to adapt. other match ups looks fine
|
On June 12 2012 22:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 17:24 Snowbear wrote:On June 12 2012 09:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:On June 12 2012 07:52 AKomrade wrote:
I don't think the patch alone did this much. Even before Vtech overlords and Katyusha rocket queens were introduced, Z was really in a good place. The styles seen at MLG and RB Lan had already been in place/developing in April. The "low win rate" for T would've happened anyways (but closer to 50% than 35%), but the patch was the executing blow.
There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players.
The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful.
I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement).
Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. I would honestly like to see how the game would play with a 4.00 Raven speed (slightly faster than Mutalisks), and maybe with 7 range on HSM. Ravens with higher speed would be much better. I don't get why blizzard made them so damn slow? If they were too fast, HSM would be a 100% hit. I guess that's why Blizzard made them slow, but hell they're way too slow. A zerg on creep can dodge a HSM with ease.
I just wish the raven had some form of "get out of jail freecard" where you can send off a seeker missle without having a very big chance of dying in the process. Getting off one hsm for the cost of one raven is pretty bad.
|
On June 12 2012 22:49 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 22:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On June 12 2012 17:24 Snowbear wrote:On June 12 2012 09:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:On June 12 2012 07:52 AKomrade wrote:
I don't think the patch alone did this much. Even before Vtech overlords and Katyusha rocket queens were introduced, Z was really in a good place. The styles seen at MLG and RB Lan had already been in place/developing in April. The "low win rate" for T would've happened anyways (but closer to 50% than 35%), but the patch was the executing blow.
There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players.
The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful.
I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement).
Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. I would honestly like to see how the game would play with a 4.00 Raven speed (slightly faster than Mutalisks), and maybe with 7 range on HSM. Ravens with higher speed would be much better. I don't get why blizzard made them so damn slow? If they were too fast, HSM would be a 100% hit. I guess that's why Blizzard made them slow, but hell they're way too slow. A zerg on creep can dodge a HSM with ease. I just wish the raven had some form of "get out of jail freecard" where you can send off a seeker missle without having a very big chance of dying in the process. Getting off one hsm for the cost of one raven is pretty bad.
Some kind of defensive matrix/hardened Shield would do the trick. I'm fine with its speed as long as it doesn't die that quickly or doesn't cost so much gas/energy. Blizzard invented a cool unit but forgot to make it viable, really frustrating.
|
On June 12 2012 22:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 17:24 Snowbear wrote:On June 12 2012 09:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 12 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:On June 12 2012 07:52 AKomrade wrote:
I don't think the patch alone did this much. Even before Vtech overlords and Katyusha rocket queens were introduced, Z was really in a good place. The styles seen at MLG and RB Lan had already been in place/developing in April. The "low win rate" for T would've happened anyways (but closer to 50% than 35%), but the patch was the executing blow.
There is no legitimate threat to Z that Terran has because the 3CC hellion/banshee is basically the end of the line for Terran strategy. It was the best thing to do vs what was and is the Z metagame because of the way it slowed Z's economy for a short time and gave T breathing room to set up the endgame they needed to compete against Z. Now that Z is able to deflect or just STOP T from delaying the creep spread and their third and can effectively gain the information needed to decide what to do uncontested, its almost a walkover in a match between two equally skilled players.
The simplest solutions at this point are to either rollback some of the T nerfs (not just one, but several) to aid in slowing down the Z economy and map control (creep), reduce the effectiveness of Z T3 (not really an option given ZvP seems to be fairly reliant on either fast roach maxing or taking the game late and fighting with BL/infestor vs mothership/deathball) or buff the T lategame by removing the buff to snipe and finding a way to make Thor's AA attacks useful.
I personally hope that they will remove the Hellion attack delay or increase the movespeed. It would force Z to include roaches to defend instead of simply defending hellions with 3 queens and 30 lings (not a large investment given it shuts down T hellion production and map movement).
Or they could listen to the incredibly bitter Z players and simply shrug off any T "weakness" citing the amount of tournaments Terran has won. Completely agreed. The T needs a backbone in the late game, and since ghosts can't feel that role anymore I think they really need to look at how ravens work. T is such a mineral heavy race because most of the high gas cost units are useless. On the top of my head, if they could somehow change how the raven works, and add the same role that science vessels use to have it would be great. HSM needs to be 100energy + require a longer range(7~8) + deal less damage and should accelerate from slow movement speed to a very high one til it hits. Maybe even a thor upgrade that changes out its +light to +armoured or something, so you'd have vikings/thors to deal with mass BL/corrupters instead on relying on a single unit. I would honestly like to see how the game would play with a 4.00 Raven speed (slightly faster than Mutalisks), and maybe with 7 range on HSM. Ravens with higher speed would be much better. I don't get why blizzard made them so damn slow? If they were too fast, HSM would be a 100% hit. I guess that's why Blizzard made them slow, but hell they're way too slow. A zerg on creep can dodge a HSM with ease.
It's still a bit silly.
Raven are almost 50% slower than Science Vessels.
And ravens spells are worse than SV one's.
|
yeah, raven need a seriously buff, at least in speed
|
Personally I would live to see HSM changed into some other defensive ability.
Like some ability that would grant protection from abilities like psionic storm or fungals for a limited time of course.
Would make the unit really interesting, in my opinion.
|
I think it should be a requirement to take a test defining the term 'metagame' before one is allowed to post. Just because there may exist Terran strategies that are more competitive doesn't necessarily mean every huge loss streak is a metagame shift, except in the most trivial sense of the term. If BLs were patched to show your opponent the loss screen when they were made, the game would obviously be imbalanced, but there would still be competitive Terran strategies like all-ins and pre-Hive pushes. So, yeah, the 'metagame' would be to end the game before 10 minutes, but it would be fucking silly to call the change in winrates a metagame shift.
|
I actually realised that the raven costs 50 gas more then an infestor, and is not half as good. The raven should really have an awesome spell, a spell that makes your opponent scared.
|
The way I see it, next month we will find ZvP being slightly Zerg favoured (but still a completely broken MU), ZvT being massively Zerg favoured still (because Blizz screwed TvZ completely) and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Basically, Blizzard changed 2 matchups that didn't really need changing in ways they didn't need to be changed, while ignoring the most wonky matchup in the game (PvT).
|
On June 12 2012 14:26 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 14:13 GTPGlitch wrote:I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate. Oh goody!~ In my opinion as soon as infestors got the full-stop it was pretty much just a matter of time until zergs became the strongest race. The fact that blizzard nerfed the ghost for having too many roles it could fill means that the infestor should get nerfed as well, or at least change fungal. One infestor and good map awareness shuts down drops, infestors+army creates a combination that will stop enemy armies from retreating/microing or give the zerg army a free chance to escape. Infestors are viable for pretty much every situation ever, and fungal is so killer to terran armies since they can't micro out and the aoe that zerg can bring to bear when terran can't micro away means that it becomes a decidedly one-sided slaughter. In my opinion (and this mostly applies at the lower levels, although it happens more often than i would like to pro terrans) the power of the infestor creates engagements that are entirely dependent on how well the zerg can use his infestors, not on the talent of both players. Hit fungals, blings or ultras murder terran army, or vikings get wrecked and blords destroy the ground army. Ling/bling/muta was more fun for me to watch because splitting marines against blings and focusfiring blings and using the blings to hunt for marines, mutas to focusfire tanks etc was such an awesome dynamic to watch. Now its just... fungals? oops, there goes any chance of a favorable T engagement (assuming equal army sizes). Apologies if this is too much qq, just very frustrating to face zergs when they can just mass queen->infestor hivetech to win :| I agree that infestors are too strong but I think that if you step back from your own bias it becomes really obvious that they are pretty much the only unit zerg has that enables victory. From a protoss perspective, nerfing infestors is like nerfing colossus. We can talk all day about how they are poorly designed etc etc but at the end of the day Toss without collo would have single digit win percentages and the same for zerg without infestor. Our best hope is HoTS at this point so just be happy it is right around the corner.
Actually with double evo ling bane muta already did decently. I think that fungal 2.0 is just bad design. It was made with the intention as a spell to hold things in place dealing moderate damage so your units (ultras/banes usually) could catch up and go to town on em. Now its more like a psi storm that you cant dodge..
|
On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit.
|
I would appreciate a raven buff, maybe if HSM seped was increased and the energy cost decreased, maybe if HSM was the same speed as an infestor on creep.
|
On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit.
And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose...
|
On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose...
I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win. Ask any terran what he thinks about tvp. I am NOT saying that TvP is heavy P favoured, I am just saying that it's slightly P favoured, and not slightly T favoured as the guy I quoted said. Atm I am actually really happy when I meet a protoss on the ladder, because this means it's not a zerg (tvz makes tvp look heaven).
|
On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win. Ask any terran what he thinks about tvp. I am NOT saying that TvP is heavy P favoured, I am just saying that it's slightly P favoured, and not slightly T favoured as the guy I quoted said. Atm I am actually really happy when I meet a protoss on the ladder, because this means it's not a zerg (tvz makes tvp look heaven).
Oh, well that settles it then. lol.
On a serious note, I don't think that WoL will be getting patched once HotS beta comes out, as Blizzard will probably be turning all of their StarCraft 2 attention towards balancing the new game. It's hard enough as it is to balance one game; I don't see them splitting their energy between two games.
|
On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win
He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese.
Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do.
|
On June 12 2012 23:11 Garmer wrote:
yeah, raven need a seriously buff, at least in speed
No thanks. I really am against the whole HOTS concept of press 1 spell and win. Players should be more reliant on skill than gimmicky spellcasters.
It takes an exceptional player to gain small advantages throughout the game through macro and decision making.
a gold player could press r for hunter seeker and kill the entire army of a player 100x his better.
I like how Blizzard approached the game with making Terran's core units better- but with the stupid spider mine as long as all the other gimmicky nonsense the other races received I really fear HOTS :/
|
On June 13 2012 01:32 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:11 Garmer wrote:
yeah, raven need a seriously buff, at least in speed No thanks. I really am against the whole HOTS concept of press 1 spell and win. Players should be more reliant on skill than gimmicky spellcasters. It takes an exceptional player to gain small advantages throughout the game through macro and decision making. a gold player could press r for hunter seeker and kill the entire army of a player 100x his better. I like how Blizzard approached the game with making Terran's core units better- but with the stupid spider mine as long as all the other gimmicky nonsense the other races received I really fear HOTS :/
kinda like now a masters level zerg can 1a his way through tournaments to win vs 100 times better players ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
