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On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that.
I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other.
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What's funny is I still rarely see marines doing earlier pressure anymore long before range buff - and hellions rarely commit anyway. It's not like creepspread helps our economy in any way. It comes in to play during pushes and mid-game more so.
Even seeing 4 queens means we aren't making units, so why not just take a 3rd, we have no units! YOU NEED TO DO NOTHING! Take you 3rd, get your upgrades start, get dat army comp, and hit your timing, or figure out pressure. Up 2 u, bro Ts.
Zerg has cried for so many seasons that cheese, bunkers etc were so unfair. Then you just stopped using them, now you are Q_Qing about macro plays. Nobody wins...
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On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100%
Let's just assume that all your analysis of the matches is correct. I don't think it is productive to argue over individual games, because it would make very little difference.
The point I was arguing against was Snowbear's "immvp had to cheese hard to win". If MVP still won about half (I would say slightly more) of his games in which he played a completely macro game (supposedly Protoss' greatest strength) against Naniwa (a very macro-orientated player), Parting (the so-called best PvTer in the world) and Squirtle (possibly the overall best Protoss in the world), where does that leave us? It certainly doesn't indicated that MVP was FORCED to cheese to win.
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On June 13 2012 02:30 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that. I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other.
When I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - not 1-2 base all-ins. Proxies are cheese, as is 3 rax with scvs. 1/1/1 is not cheese, nor is an Immortal bust or a VR all-in. Although in a general sense, Terran has better 1 base all-ins, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. But proxy gates are absolutely terrible, while proxy raxes can deal game-ending damage even when scouted. And that's why I say Terran cheese is better.
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mech is completely god damn useless tvz now, the creep spread is just too harsh for it to work
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On June 13 2012 02:42 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:30 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that. I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other. When I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - not 1-2 base all-ins. Proxies are cheese, as is 3 rax with scvs. 1/1/1 is not cheese, nor is an Immortal bust or a VR all-in. Although in a general sense, Terran has better 1 base all-ins, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. But proxy gates are absolutely terrible, while proxy raxes can deal game-ending damage even when scouted. And that's why I say Terran cheese is better.
ok lets make up random definitions for words
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Looks like double banshee + Raven is right now the only way to fight creep early and mid-game... Unless Zerg has 6 queens on 2 bases...
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One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority.
Lets go through them:
RO8:
Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins.
RO4:
Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins.
Final:
Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard).
Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses.
Winrate in standard games: 50%
Winrate when cheesing: 100%
This is simply false.
2 of the "standard game" wins in the Final are all-in on 2 bases, and pure luck.
If i remember correctly, it's something like Entombed Valley MMM 2 bases with all his SCVS.
And the other with a BIG doom drop. Doom drop is only working when the toss fucked up something hard. Also, in the games against squirle, Squirtle wasn't on the top of his play most of them, giving immortals/Stalkers in early game while not resetting his rallypoints etc...
I'm not whinning, i'm playing Mech TvP at master level in EU and win almost all my TvP. But aniway, playing standard, with the news maps who are harder and harder for drops, the "so-called early game advantage" is a complete lie. Most of earlys wins are taked by abig all-ins by all the T I know, and, seeing all the whine post i read every day, most of the Terrans.
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On June 13 2012 02:35 DarKcS wrote:
Even seeing 4 queens means we aren't making units, so why not just take a 3rd, we have no units! YOU NEED TO DO NOTHING! Take you 3rd, get your upgrades start, get dat army comp, and hit your timing, or figure out pressure. Up 2 u, bro Ts.
Zerg has cried for so many seasons that cheese, bunkers etc were so unfair. Then you just stopped using them, now you are Q_Qing about macro plays. Nobody wins...
1) What do you think we do? We take our third. We even add 2 ebays for grades. The problem is that it's insanely hard to do damage (with 3 CC and 2 ebays your push will start around 13:00, + Show Spoiler +). Infestor + hive (ultra / broodlord) is so sick strong.
- Baneling + ling + infestor + ultra is sick good: you can see thorzain losing in some recent game: he goes tank heavy as a reaction to the bling ling infestor ultra combination (which is imo the right response, gl defeating mass ultra with banelings and infestors without a ton of splash). Then the zerg follows up with broodlord infestor, and thorzain just dies. Both players had the same eco.
We stopped using bunkers because blizzard nerfed them hard. 2rax is not good atm. 1 base play vs zerg sucks hard. 2 base allins suck hard (unless the zerg fucks up with his lamborginilord scout). What else is left?
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On June 13 2012 02:07 ticklishmusic wrote:
Oh no
Zerg > Terran for the first month in over a year
Blizzard must have fucked up real bad
But seriously, give it a chance. This is wayyyy different from the 1/1/1. 1/1/1 was a whole family of builds developed over time in response to a pretty static Protoss. Queen buff/ Overlord nitro is relatively new. and it'll take a little while to see if Terran (can) work something out.
I'll admit it just feels a little too strong (pretty sure queens on creep can kite zealots now, rofl), but don't forget that factory is still faster than slow overlord.
Idk, but my PvZ is fine(like seriously, I'm still probably 70%), and my PvT is... well, getting better. DT good unit. Still, the fact that its cloaked just makes everyone rage and call it cheesy and imba.
zerg had roughly 54.6 percent vs terran from ghost snipe nerf till queen/ovie buff patch. zerg currently has 88 percent vs terran since the patch :D. Not sure why ppl are saying this is the first month where terran had losing rate vs zerg. oh those stats are based on gsl/gstl record btw.
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On June 13 2012 02:51 Zeetox wrote:
Looks like double banshee + Raven is right now the only way to fight creep early and mid-game... Unless Zerg has 6 queens on 2 bases...
This delays:
1) grades (gas into starport, banshee and ravens)
2) siegetanks
3) fast third
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On June 13 2012 02:40 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% Let's just assume that all your analysis of the matches is correct. I don't think it is productive to argue over individual games, because it would make very little difference. The point I was arguing against was Snowbear's "immvp had to cheese hard to win". If MVP still won about half (I would say slightly more) of his games in which he played a completely macro game (supposedly Protoss' greatest strength) against Naniwa (a very macro-orientated player), Parting (the so-called best PvTer in the world) and Squirtle (possibly the overall best Protoss in the world), where does that leave us? It certainly doesn't indicated that MVP was FORCED to cheese to win.
Uhm... wait.. I just looked at the opening plan of MVP. Most of those standard wins came from a severe mistake of the protoss in the phase where a terran who plays standard is dangerous (the time between bioupgrades+medivacs and protoss has safely established a 3rd). If you discount those wins, then MVP won one, maybe two true macro games.
Where does this leave us?
Standard opening is pretty weak, if your protoss doesn't make a crucial mistake and instead patiently and carefully takes his 3rd when he has a solid army and splash. MVP played standard games and got lucky a few times. He used these standard games to mix in really cheesy stuff.
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On June 13 2012 02:52 DuckNuked wrote:Show nested quote +One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority.
Lets go through them:
RO8:
Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins.
RO4:
Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins.
Final:
Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard).
Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses.
Winrate in standard games: 50%
Winrate when cheesing: 100%
This is simply false. 2 of the "standard game" wins in the Final are all-in on 2 bases, and pure luck. If i remember correctly, it's something like Entombed Valley MMM 2 bases with all his SCVS. And the other with a BIG doom drop. Doom drop is only working when the toss fucked up something hard. Also, in the games against squirle, Squirtle wasn't on the top of his play most of them, giving immortals/Stalkers in early game while not resetting his rallypoints etc... I'm not whinning, i'm playing Mech TvP at master level in EU and win almost all my TvP. But aniway, playing standard, with the news maps who are harder and harder for drops, the "so-called early game advantage" is a complete lie. Most of earlys wins are taked by abig all-ins by all the T I know, and, seeing all the whine post i read every day, most of the Terrans.
Please... I was being generous as to 'what is standard play'. In the standard category were all the quick expand builds. The standard play is expand, get bio upgrades and medivacs and then pray for the toss to make a mistake that lets you kill him.
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On June 13 2012 02:58 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:40 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% Let's just assume that all your analysis of the matches is correct. I don't think it is productive to argue over individual games, because it would make very little difference. The point I was arguing against was Snowbear's "immvp had to cheese hard to win". If MVP still won about half (I would say slightly more) of his games in which he played a completely macro game (supposedly Protoss' greatest strength) against Naniwa (a very macro-orientated player), Parting (the so-called best PvTer in the world) and Squirtle (possibly the overall best Protoss in the world), where does that leave us? It certainly doesn't indicated that MVP was FORCED to cheese to win. Uhm... wait.. I just looked at the opening plan of MVP. Most of those standard wins came from a severe mistake of the protoss in the phase where a terran who plays standard is dangerous (the time between bioupgrades+medivacs and protoss has safely established a 3rd). If you discount those wins, then MVP won one, maybe two true macro games. Where does this leave us? Standard opening is pretty weak, if your protoss doesn't make a crucial mistake and instead patiently and carefully takes his 3rd when he has a solid army and splash. MVP played standard games and got lucky a few times. He used these standard games to mix in really cheesy stuff.
Irrelevant. As I said, I was responding to someone who said "immvp had to cheese hard to win" - direct quote. If he played with a macro opening and killed his opponent because that opponent made a mistake it was not cheese. All this talk of "he used these standard games to mix in really cheesy stuff" and discounting the "severe mistakes" isn't salient to what I was talking about - my argument is that MVP used macro openings in many games which he won, and therefore did not have to "cheese hard to win".
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On June 13 2012 02:50 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:42 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 02:30 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:
[quote]
And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:
[quote]
And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that. I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other. When I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - not 1-2 base all-ins. Proxies are cheese, as is 3 rax with scvs. 1/1/1 is not cheese, nor is an Immortal bust or a VR all-in. Although in a general sense, Terran has better 1 base all-ins, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. But proxy gates are absolutely terrible, while proxy raxes can deal game-ending damage even when scouted. And that's why I say Terran cheese is better. ok lets make up random definitions for words
This is actually what those words meant before SC2 came out and idiots started calling any early attack cheese.
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On June 13 2012 03:10 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:50 biology]major wrote:On June 13 2012 02:42 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 02:30 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that. I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other. When I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - not 1-2 base all-ins. Proxies are cheese, as is 3 rax with scvs. 1/1/1 is not cheese, nor is an Immortal bust or a VR all-in. Although in a general sense, Terran has better 1 base all-ins, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. But proxy gates are absolutely terrible, while proxy raxes can deal game-ending damage even when scouted. And that's why I say Terran cheese is better. ok lets make up random definitions for words This is actually what those words meant before SC2 came out and idiots started calling any early attack cheese.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese
An argument could be made for either including 2base all-ins/1-1-1 or just proxies etc, I think.
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On June 13 2012 03:10 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:50 biology]major wrote:On June 13 2012 02:42 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 02:30 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that. I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other. When I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - not 1-2 base all-ins. Proxies are cheese, as is 3 rax with scvs. 1/1/1 is not cheese, nor is an Immortal bust or a VR all-in. Although in a general sense, Terran has better 1 base all-ins, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. But proxy gates are absolutely terrible, while proxy raxes can deal game-ending damage even when scouted. And that's why I say Terran cheese is better. ok lets make up random definitions for words This is actually what those words meant before SC2 came out and idiots started calling any early attack cheese.
Wait, you're telling me that attacking before maxed armies is not cheese? I though to play a macro game, I needed to let my opponent take 3 bases and focus on upgrades and workers the entire game. This is not correct? I though that playing a macro style was the most honorable, proper and civil minded way to play SC2. I mean, people who attack before they have maxed armies are just savages.
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On June 13 2012 03:14 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:10 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 02:50 biology]major wrote:On June 13 2012 02:42 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 02:30 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:
[quote]
He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese.
Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:
[quote]
He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese.
Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that. I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other. When I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - not 1-2 base all-ins. Proxies are cheese, as is 3 rax with scvs. 1/1/1 is not cheese, nor is an Immortal bust or a VR all-in. Although in a general sense, Terran has better 1 base all-ins, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. But proxy gates are absolutely terrible, while proxy raxes can deal game-ending damage even when scouted. And that's why I say Terran cheese is better. ok lets make up random definitions for words This is actually what those words meant before SC2 came out and idiots started calling any early attack cheese. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CheeseAn argument could be made for either including 2base all-ins/1-1-1 or just proxies etc, I think.
If cheese is essentially the same as an all-in, then why use both words? That's not to say you're not allowed to call certain strategies "cheesy", if they depend heavily upon not being scouted. However, tons of all-ins in sc2 are very powerful even if the opponent knows exactly what's happening. And especially calling 2 base all-ins "cheese" is just ridiculous. This is not a LR thread, we're allowed to use words according to their original meaning.
Also, all the examples of cheese on that liquipedia page are correct.
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On June 13 2012 03:30 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:14 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 03:10 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 02:50 biology]major wrote:On June 13 2012 02:42 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 02:30 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 02:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:
[quote]
One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority.
Lets go through them:
RO8:
Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins.
RO4:
Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins.
Final:
Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard).
Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses.
Winrate in standard games: 50%
Winrate when cheesing: 100%
PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard. On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:
[quote]
One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority.
Lets go through them:
RO8:
Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins.
RO4:
Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins.
Final:
Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard).
Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses.
Winrate in standard games: 50%
Winrate when cheesing: 100%
PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing. Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3 Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that. I'd say protoss and terran cheese are even. Neither one is not really that much stronger than the other. When I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - not 1-2 base all-ins. Proxies are cheese, as is 3 rax with scvs. 1/1/1 is not cheese, nor is an Immortal bust or a VR all-in. Although in a general sense, Terran has better 1 base all-ins, while Protoss has better 2 base all-ins. But proxy gates are absolutely terrible, while proxy raxes can deal game-ending damage even when scouted. And that's why I say Terran cheese is better. ok lets make up random definitions for words This is actually what those words meant before SC2 came out and idiots started calling any early attack cheese. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CheeseAn argument could be made for either including 2base all-ins/1-1-1 or just proxies etc, I think. If cheese is essentially the same as an all-in, then why use both words? That's not to say you're not allowed to call certain strategies "cheesy", if they depend heavily upon not being scouted. However, tons of all-ins in sc2 are very powerful even if the opponent knows exactly what's happening. And especially calling 2 base all-ins "cheese" is just ridiculous. This is not a LR thread, we're allowed to use words according to their original meaning. Also, all the examples of cheese on that liquipedia page are correct.
Cheese is all-in, but all-in is not necessarily cheese. The same way that a square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares.
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Dragon vs lalush tsl qualifier today: perfect example of 2 base attacks being so damn bad vs zerg. Lalush went for 4 queen build --> roach lings (0 banelings), dragon went for hellion marauder, and dragon lost his army.
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EPT
