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On June 13 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 04:40 Tibbroar wrote:On June 13 2012 04:22 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 04:13 Tibbroar wrote:On June 13 2012 02:08 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. Winrate in standard games: 50% Is this a problem? When it's Mvp you're talking about? Yes, yes it is. Why is it a problem? Squirtle is an extremely capable PvTer. So is Parting. Stop acting like MVP is someone that's untouchable and should always have a 99% winrate or something. He's the favorite against every single player you match him up against, and his mechanics, and in particular his macro, are, if not the best, certainly beyond both Squirtle and Parting. Yet he's only managing 50% in macro games. I don't expect him to win every single game, but his mechanics alone, in a perfectly balanced game, should get him above a 50% winrate against anyone other than perhaps MKP and DRG. I don't think that's true at all. Maybe the MVP of 6 months ago was the favourite against everyone, but certainly not anymore.
I don't think he's as dominant as he was last fall either, but even with his wrists acting up even more lately I don't think he ever really lost the title of "Best Player". His worst performance dating all the way back to GSL July was being one game short of Ro8 in Season 1, and he's been in the top 4 of every other GSL in that period, as well as winning the Blizzcon Invitational and MLG Anaheim, and placing second at Providence.
He's still probably got the best TvZ and TvT matchups, and he just showed his TvP is probably the best in the world too. Yeah, MMA had his number, but I don't think having a problem with one specific player, and one specific player only, is a reason to say he wasn't the best. I mean MMA has the same problem with Polt, it just happens sometimes. The only other player to show in the last 6 months that he can compete with Mvp has been Leenock, he's torn through all the top tosses in his "weakest" matchup, and he has a tendency to make MKP and DRG look like fools when they play.
I'll freely admit I'm a huge Mvp fanboy and have been for ages, but I really can't objectively see who he isn't favored against right now. His mechanics are absolutely magical, sure, his ~300 APM isn't as insane as the 500 APM that DRG posts, but he's far more efficient. And that's not even his strongest point, his strong point is that he's shown that he can outsmart every single player out there. His play is actually very reminiscent of Flash, and God himself has noted the similarity.
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Germany750 Posts
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imo Terran got crippled by so many nerfs that our game became somewhat stagnant and predictable. In the beginning terran had several openings like banshee , reaper , fast tanks , hellion and all that.
You can hold all of that as zerg, but at that time they just didn't , because lack of scouting and lack of knowledge of timings. Now all timings are known ( evo 6:30 and 1 spore - sucessfully deflects banshees ). I even think it's time to revert some changes that are done to terran to get some diversity into the game.
I don't even remember any gas first builds ( ok almost no gas first builds ) that are usefull and always use 1 rax fe into 3rax or 3 orbital.
It gets boring tbh.
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let's say 3 rax opening is the optimal opening for terran against protoss and 1 gate fe is the perfect opening for protoss.
I honestly think that Protoss is always ahead and it also feels like that when i play them.
And let's not start about zerg who just drone up 80 or so when they see you fast expanding lol!
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Trying to switch to zerg, its not like hots is gonna help terran at all.
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On June 13 2012 06:28 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 06:19 Zoesan wrote:On June 13 2012 05:58 Rainling wrote:On June 13 2012 05:50 teamhozac wrote:On June 13 2012 05:10 Rainling wrote:
A four queen opening is a significant economic investment that limits zerg's aggressive options in the early game. Hellion openings and other early game aggressive builds aren't nearly as effective against zerg, and this definitely represents a significant metagame shift, but defensive queen openings also open up new opportunities for terrans.
Four queen openings allow terrans to take a fast third and tech quickly without as much of a threat of aggression from zerg. Although zerg can spread creep early game without being inhibited by terran, terran can still kill creep tumors with midgame aggression. Mech builds incorporating ravens have the potential to effectively deal with late game zerg compositions.
I think we should wait a few months before deciding whether zerg is imbalanced in zvt or the metagame has simply shifted. Metagame shifts like the queen buff will usually be accompanied by shifts in win rates because people are still adjusting to new changes. Ummm even if a Terran player goes 1 rax FE into 3 CC he will still be way behind if he just allows the Z player to drone up and not put pressure on. Sure he will have 3 orbitals fast, but you will have 80 drones compared to 50 scvs, the ability to remax your army instantly, insane creep spread (since nothing is clearing it), etc. Playing pure macro against zerg DOES NOT WORK. Mech is good but only if you have good timing with your push. You have to deny creep and pressure zerg, otherwise your march across the field is gonna be met by maxed out roach army after army until the mech army is gone and takes 5 minutes to reproduce, or broodlords come out and take dumps all over your army It seems like even with the queen change, midgame aggression is still viable. Midgame drops and pushes off of three bases can still be effective even if the zerg has a strong economy to defend them. I could be wrong about this, though. Point is: it's the ONLY thing terran can still do. And to reiterate a point made by someone else: zerg doesn't have to play aggressive. Just don't show all your queens, unless you have to and drone like the greedy bastard you are. Wow, terran is already playing catchup for the rest of the game. you're oversimplifying this rediculously. Mid-game aggression is not the ONLY thing terran can do. We aren't in an "end it in in the mid-game or you lose" situation like you seem to be on about, and we aren't crippled in the early game either. We're also fully capable of being greedy ourselves and macroing WITH a zerg safely (not same rate, but fast enough to not die), just not as rediculously fast as if you leave them alone to get to 200/200 and hope that everything will be okay despite wanting to have stayed on two bases doing nothing like a bronze league player.
What are you talking about? No one said you HAVE to end it mid game, but it is certainly easier than trying to end it late game, or early game for that matter, especially now. Zerg has every advantage late game, and if you let them get 4 bases and max out youve basically lost as Terran, constant pressure into a game ending push has always been the way to beat zerg. A few guys were doing that ridiculous split the map macro game/snipe everything with ghosts strat, but then guess what, they nerfed ghosts, like they nerfed all our early game pressures as well. So youre right, we dont HAVE to end it mid game, but it is absolutely the best time to try.
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When I was watch SOTG when the Zerg OL and Queen buffs were first discussed, InControl turned to Idra and asked what he thought of the changes and he said something like "OL speed is helpful, Queen buff isn't a big deal" InControl translated that to mean it was OP as shit  .
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Anyone else surprised that TvP is so balanced? I've been hearing about how bad it is for terran but...apparently not? I guess the other MUs are worse?
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On June 13 2012 10:50 Lobotomist wrote:
Anyone else surprised that TvP is so balanced? I've been hearing about how bad it is for terran but...apparently not? I guess the other MUs are worse?
Maybe you should learn to understand what you read since most of the complains were about terrans horrible late game in TvP. Not about having worse winrate versus toss.
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Well guys, after watching an interview with dustin browder, I realised that this TvZ situation won't change untill HOTS. Browder: "I just saw the numbers this morning, TvZ is only 1% difference, so great balance atm". So basicly they think it's all fine.
Come on, every single terran I know in masters or above is losing at least 60% of his TvZ...
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On June 13 2012 15:50 Snowbear wrote:
Well guys, after watching an interview with dustin browder, I realised that this TvZ situation won't change untill HOTS. Browder: "I just saw the numbers this morning, TvZ is only 1% difference, so great balance atm". So basicly they think it's all fine.
Come on, every single terran I know in masters or above is losing at least 60% of his TvZ...
TBF, he did say across ALL regions. So maybe SC2 is also played on Mars where Terran is probably 60-40, so when you take Earth and Mars together, you have balance.
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As a zerg I take some pleasure out of hearing terrans complaining about hard to scout allins
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On June 13 2012 15:55 Grend wrote:
As a zerg I take some pleasure out of hearing terrans complaining about hard to scout allins
Terrans have the tools to scout it, but they are too used to having that giant early game economy...can't have both anymore, I guess.
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On June 13 2012 16:03 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 15:55 Grend wrote:
As a zerg I take some pleasure out of hearing terrans complaining about hard to scout allins Terrans have the tools to scout it, but they are too used to having that giant early game economy...can't have both anymore, I guess.
Zergs weren't happy with having the midgame and the lategame so they wanted the earlygame as well. Can't have anything I guess.
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On June 13 2012 15:50 Snowbear wrote:
Well guys, after watching an interview with dustin browder, I realised that this TvZ situation won't change untill HOTS. Browder: "I just saw the numbers this morning, TvZ is only 1% difference, so great balance atm". So basicly they think it's all fine.
Come on, every single terran I know in masters or above is losing at least 60% of his TvZ...
The way the ladder works means it places you where you get 50% win rate.. so it is no wonder Browder sees 50% all the time.
Terran players MMR will have dropped due to losing streaks, thus they are now playing weaker opponents. So now they get 50% win rate again.
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On June 13 2012 18:25 Rye. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 15:50 Snowbear wrote:
Well guys, after watching an interview with dustin browder, I realised that this TvZ situation won't change untill HOTS. Browder: "I just saw the numbers this morning, TvZ is only 1% difference, so great balance atm". So basicly they think it's all fine.
Come on, every single terran I know in masters or above is losing at least 60% of his TvZ... The way the ladder works means it places you where you get 50% win rate.. so it is no wonder Browder sees 50% all the time. Terran players MMR will have dropped due to losing streaks, thus they are now playing weaker opponents. So now they get 50% win rate again.
I don't get it. If TvZ is near impossible to win, and you lose to most Zergs, it will bring down your MMR, but at the same time you'll be winning TvT and TvP a lot more, or?
Like, why would it balance out as 50% for every matchup?
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The 50% is an average for all matchups.
So 60% TvP....50% TvT....40% TvZ would be 50% winrate. If all you look at is the average winrate for terran, 50% is likely what you will see.
You can assume all terrans would be affected equally. So all terrans MMR would drop. Thus you should always have a 50% in mirror matchups.
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On June 13 2012 16:03 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 15:55 Grend wrote:
As a zerg I take some pleasure out of hearing terrans complaining about hard to scout allins Terrans have the tools to scout it, but they are too used to having that giant early game economy...can't have both anymore, I guess.
Terran can keep up with worker production untill about 20 workers , since orbital is done at 15 , thats like 2 minutes of ur so described "GIANT ECONOMY" , after that , even if you constantly produce workers you get behind , so every scan you use puts you behind in economy untill the late game.
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On June 13 2012 18:44 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 18:25 Rye. wrote:On June 13 2012 15:50 Snowbear wrote:
Well guys, after watching an interview with dustin browder, I realised that this TvZ situation won't change untill HOTS. Browder: "I just saw the numbers this morning, TvZ is only 1% difference, so great balance atm". So basicly they think it's all fine.
Come on, every single terran I know in masters or above is losing at least 60% of his TvZ... The way the ladder works means it places you where you get 50% win rate.. so it is no wonder Browder sees 50% all the time. Terran players MMR will have dropped due to losing streaks, thus they are now playing weaker opponents. So now they get 50% win rate again. I don't get it. If TvZ is near impossible to win, and you lose to most Zergs, it will bring down your MMR, but at the same time you'll be winning TvT and TvP a lot more, or? Like, why would it balance out as 50% for every matchup?
When zergs were still doing muta ling bling and protosses were hard to deal with for terran diamond~ level players, most of those players were reporting 30% win rates vs P while they had 60-70% against both T and Z, implying that the MMR of the players were lowered because of TvP to the point where they faced worse zerg and terran opponents who they could just smash.
I would guess that people have similar win loss ratios now as well.
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On June 13 2012 04:40 Tibbroar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 04:22 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 04:13 Tibbroar wrote:On June 13 2012 02:08 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. Winrate in standard games: 50% Is this a problem? When it's Mvp you're talking about? Yes, yes it is. Why is it a problem? Squirtle is an extremely capable PvTer. So is Parting. Stop acting like MVP is someone that's untouchable and should always have a 99% winrate or something. He's the favorite against every single player you match him up against, and his mechanics, and in particular his macro, are, if not the best, certainly beyond both Squirtle and Parting. Yet he's only managing 50% in macro games. I don't expect him to win every single game, but his mechanics alone, in a perfectly balanced game, should get him above a 50% winrate against anyone other than perhaps MKP and DRG.
I see bias here :o
Too much theorycrafting over a graph lal, quit talking, start playing :D
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Half of June already past, Terran better pick up pace. So far TvZ winrate in Korea TLPD is 23%. TvZ winrate not involving a Prime Terran is... 0%
Though Happy/MVP is bringing the balance back a bit today.
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EPT
