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On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed.
what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago.
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It will be interesting to see how many Terrans there are still in Grandmaster this season. When you start to see less than 50 Terrans in Grandmaster then we can be certain that there is some big issues with Terrans.
I personally just quit for this season. After going 1-10 before the season 7 ended I just figured out that this is not worth it anymore.
Terrans has core issues in their design that Blizzard doesn't even seem to acknowledge. First of all Terrans lacks a reliable anti-air unit as the game goes on in TvP and TvZ. Early on Terran can rely on marines since there is not much to stop them. However, as the game goes on marines are not going do anything against air units since they are unable to reach anything that flies in the later stage of the game. As a result Terran is forced to make tons of vikings to counter air, however, Terrans would never ever make vikings in standard game unless your opponent forces you to do so. This is a serious flaw in design. Terran makes unit purely to counter something your opponent has. The only purpose vikings have is to counter Colossus and Blood Lord tech. In TvT Vikings serve purpose of having air dominance, which is very important aspect of that match-up. Compare vikings to corruptors, they both serve the purpose to counter colossus, but corruptors also has the possibility to morph into Blood Lord, so they will never end up as 20-40 amount of supply floating uselessly in the sky as vikings do.
Next thing is casters. Raven is supposed to be the Terran version of HT and Infestor. All are units that have no attack command, they only have spells. Now compare raven to HT or infestor. Raven is not only the least effective of them all, BUT, it is also the most expensive, it takes the highest amount of time to produce. At least Blizzard could finally remove Durable Materials upgrade (Increases the duration of Auto-Turrets and Point Defense Drones from 180 to 240 seconds, and increases the duration of the Seeker Missile from 15 to 20 Seconds.) and let ravens have it when you make one so they wouldn't be at least so pathetic as they are now.
And my last issue with Terrans is the lack of late game tech. Thors and Battlecruiser can be considered the late tech units of Terran and yet both of them are not worth making in the late game, unless you mass them. Terran should also have badass late game tech unit Terran can add to their army.
You can focus on balance all day long, but as long as I, as Terran player, am using the same unit composition after the 10 minutes into the game until the game ends while having 20-40 supply of vikings in air doing nothing in case there is no air units to kill, without ever having any casters on the field, nor any late game tech unit I'm not interested in playing even if the figures show 50/50.
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lol @ Terran's 26% win rate in the GSTL, GSL and GSL qualifiers. This is by far the lowest ever recorded win rate.
It's no wonder MVP mentioned that Zerg was too strong in his interview with Mr. Chae. MKP's tweet also confirmed his feelings on the matter.
tbh Zerg may have needed one of the buffs, but certainly not both. Now even the best 11/11 rax can be beaten by a simple reaction from the zerg.
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On June 16 2012 08:20 Rokoz wrote:
It will be interesting to see how many Terrans there are still in Grandmaster this season. When you start to see less than 50 Terrans in Grandmaster then we can be certain that there is some big issues with Terrans.
I personally just quit for this season. After going 1-10 before the season 7 ended I just figured out that this is not worth it anymore.
Terrans has core issues in their design that Blizzard doesn't even seem to acknowledge. First of all Terrans lacks a reliable anti-air unit as the game goes on in TvP and TvZ. Early on Terran can rely on marines since there is not much to stop them. However, as the game goes on marines are not going do anything against air units since they are unable to reach anything that flies in the later stage of the game. As a result Terran is forced to make tons of vikings to counter air, however, Terrans would never ever make vikings in standard game unless your opponent forces you to do so. This is a serious flaw in design. Terran makes unit purely to counter something your opponent has. The only purpose vikings have is to counter Colossus and Blood Lord tech. In TvT Vikings serve purpose of having air dominance, which is very important aspect of that match-up. Compare vikings to corruptors, they both serve the purpose to counter colossus, but corruptors also has the possibility to morph into Blood Lord, so they will never end up as 20-40 amount of supply floating uselessly in the sky as vikings do.
Next thing is casters. Raven is supposed to be the Terran version of HT and Infestor. All are units that have no attack command, they only have spells. Now compare raven to HT or infestor. Raven is not only the least effective of them all, BUT, it is also the most expensive, it takes the highest amount of time to produce. At least Blizzard could finally remove Durable Materials upgrade (Increases the duration of Auto-Turrets and Point Defense Drones from 180 to 240 seconds, and increases the duration of the Seeker Missile from 15 to 20 Seconds.) and let ravens have it when you make one so they wouldn't be at least so pathetic as they are now.
And my last issue with Terrans is the lack of late game tech. Thors and Battlecruiser can be considered the late tech units of Terran and yet both of them are not worth making in the late game, unless you mass them. Terran should also have badass late game tech unit Terran can add to their army.
You can focus on balance all day long, but as long as I, as Terran player, am using the same unit composition after the 10 minutes into the game until the game ends while having 20-40 supply of vikings in air doing nothing in case there is no air units to kill, without ever having any casters on the field, nor any late game tech unit I'm not interested in playing even if the figures show 50/50.
Oh we will certainly see less Terrans. I have been top 8 master for 5 seasons now and none of the seasons have been as difficult as the last 2. I found myself just all-inning Zergs because I couldn't win otherwise. Now all-ins don't even work because of overlord speed and this queen range buff, which negates so many Terran openers (Reaper FE, 11/11 rax, reactor hellion). Of course you can still do these builds, but they are a shell of the builds they once were.
Before I was rewarded for my adroit micro with my reapers by forcing the zerg to delay their inject by a few seconds and maybe picking off a few drones, and generally distracting them. Now they can A move their queen and pwn my reapers. Not to mention the creep spread is not unstoppable until you reach mid game and have the potential to push it back.
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On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago.
hahah post of the year.
the op's bias is pretty annoying i've probably commented on it before.
I really want junes figures to draw a comparison :\
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On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol.
compare pvt late game with tvz late game
a haaaaaaaaaaaa...
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On June 16 2012 09:36 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. compare pvt late game with tvz late game a haaaaaaaaaaaa...
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We were already quitting six months ago. This is basically condemning those of us who stayed. If this is how Blizz wants T to be played, I'm hopping on the bandwagon to Z.
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On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol.
Obviously you don't play a race that has been getting nerfed every patch since release. It gets a little old.
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PvT isn't the best designed, but its at least pretty close to balanced.
After watching more tvz, I think I'm with the terrans now. TvZ lategame seems just as unforgiving as TvP lategame, but the big difference is that there's no distinct midgame advantage to be exploited and in fact there are really powerful mid game semi-allins zerg can do to terran. Hive tech and infestor/bl is too strong and the queen buff neutered most of terran's early game aggression.
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On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago.
as a high masters terran who quit 6 months ago, this made me smile . keep fighting the good fight bro.
i just fuck around on TF2 and iccup these days. sc2 bleh. sometimes cool to watch korean terrans. otherwise meh.
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On June 16 2012 09:49 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. Obviously you don't play a race that has been getting nerfed every patch since release. It gets a little old.
Keep in mind that the reason why Terran kept getting nerfed is because they used to be much stronger than both Protoss and Zerg (and the historical winrates and tournament wins support this). Then we hit around even balance... but then Zerg got buffed all of a sudden and now everything's potentially screwed. But before that, the Terran nerfs had been completely justified (except possibly the recent ghost snipe nerf because of late game TvZ). But the vast majority of Terran nerfs (and nearly all patch changes- buffs and nerfs to all races across the board) in retrospect seem rather sensible.
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On June 16 2012 09:32 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. hahah post of the year. the op's bias is pretty annoying i've probably commented on it before. I really want junes figures to draw a comparison :\
lol you shouldn't, because if you have the figures right now, Terran winrate is like 25% or something. This first half of June is way worst than May. People should hope the winrate will improve in the second half, or we're gonna have another topic like this.
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On June 16 2012 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 09:49 CyDe wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. Obviously you don't play a race that has been getting nerfed every patch since release. It gets a little old. Keep in mind that the reason why Terran kept getting nerfed is because they used to be much stronger than both Protoss and Zerg (and the historical winrates and tournament wins support this). Then we hit around even balance... but then Zerg got buffed all of a sudden and now everything's potentially screwed. But before that, the Terran nerfs had been completely justified (except possibly the recent ghost snipe nerf because of late game TvZ). But the vast majority of Terran nerfs (and nearly all patch changes- buffs and nerfs to all races across the board) in retrospect seem rather sensible.
Agreed, coming from a Terran all previous nerfs to Terran were justified and possibly the ghost change too, but since the recent buff to Zerg and how much Terrans are struggling late game against them. Due to this I would say that reverting the ghost change would or even slightly buffing them would sort out the problems in late game tvz.
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I love these, helps me win so many arguments. Hope to keep seeing them. Thanks <3
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Hm beeing high masters T since it came out and I find this winrates quite strange. Maybe cuz i play bad people in the EU server or because my style is retarded to just defend,defend,defend and then attack after 2-3 max out attacks from the opponents. I think KR Terrans just didn't adapt fast enough cuz they didn't know that all of the pressure builds go out of the window with the new buffs but as you can see StC came out with some new stuff like banshee,raven,banshee and hellions into mech ( or bio ) which works the same way as the old days clear creep and expand yourself and harass. Just give it some time.
I agree about the no anti-air unit but still we have seen is not a issue ( yet ) if you are skilled enough. About no T3 for Terran well I don't know if you have ghosts with your thor,raven,bc or whatever Terran units work in a mix so to excel and really do their job you need support units. It was same for zerg back in the day massing T3 unit like ultra or BL and dying. Check what is happening now most of the time their T3 units are supported by low tier units so try to grasp that idea insted of maxing out some unit and saying its not viable and T has no T3. Even that every unit has energy bar you can emp them or try to waste energy before fight or relly on your ghost micro to hit the enemy casters before they hit you so just play more and find answers.
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posting 80% win + this season vs zerg in high master na and china
what am i doing
11/11 as close as humanly possible,pulling the scvs like mkp, maru and the only terrans who can win in this patch vs zerg taught me to do
it's that or 15 CC, 15 rax, 2 OC's, 3rd CC eco cheese
food for thought: my zerg friend had this to say : "when i get multiple queens, the result is snowballing. larvae pools up and has no limit (that i know of), creep is always good because it's basically like taking income away from terran, free scouting and ridiculous unit mobility. it also buys you time for pushes. with multiple queens i am able to aggressively push the center of maps such as antiga where the central control == the whole game and transfuse my corruptors/BL's to overwhelm his 1 starport production(15-16 min, most terran i play donot have 2 starport), sometimes i can't break the fortified position in mid or the terran did well with his 13-14 min push but right now my build order is basically 6 queens + double upgrades, produce infestors + spire + hive, produce lings, produce corruptors +broods
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Canada13389 Posts
Im surprised Protoss is winning as much as they are vs Zerg, then I remember that they are all just doing the immortal sentry 2 base all in against the roach metagame.
And I feel for the terrans who don't have much to exploit against Zerg.
At the top level the match was super balanced and close games EVEN THOUGH zerg would lose some 30 drones in the early mid game. And now that Terran can't hurt the drones, we are starting to see just how strong Zerg is when they can keep drones and have 3 or 4 hatches with queens injecting them.
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On June 16 2012 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 09:49 CyDe wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. Obviously you don't play a race that has been getting nerfed every patch since release. It gets a little old. Keep in mind that the reason why Terran kept getting nerfed is because they used to be much stronger than both Protoss and Zerg (and the historical winrates and tournament wins support this). Then we hit around even balance... but then Zerg got buffed all of a sudden and now everything's potentially screwed. But before that, the Terran nerfs had been completely justified (except possibly the recent ghost snipe nerf because of late game TvZ). But the vast majority of Terran nerfs (and nearly all patch changes- buffs and nerfs to all races across the board) in retrospect seem rather sensible.
i dont think they were much stronger to begin with considering the recent zerg strats(double evo, getting mass infestors) werent used until recently. other than the fungal changes there were hardly anything changed to those, zergs just werent doing it. i found the ghost snipe nerf excessive tho. instead of just taking 10-15 dmg off it and see how it went blizz just went fuck it and cut the damage in half totally.
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EPT
