|
On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more.
This would actually make Ravens and BCs useful in TvZ
|
On June 16 2012 21:31 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. This would actually make Ravens and BCs useful in TvZ
It would be a wonderful change indeed.
My only concern is the risk of mass muta in ZvZ.
HOTS Hydralisks with speed could counter them, if not maybe make fungal hit air but without the immobilizing effect.
|
On June 16 2012 14:54 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:17 CajunMan wrote:
I like how terrens are just deserting all of a sudden. Terrens are still in top 3 or winning every tournament they have most certainly not been knocked out completely and it hasn't even been that long. I don't understand why terren players are so whiney and not willing to change styles. I still rarely see mech terren even though it is an extremely effective style that demolishes all but the best multitaskers with ease. But I guess its qq time no need to adapt. it's hard as fuck to hold all ins with mech early game, so unless you're extremely used to mech and know timings with mech for everything, it's much easier to lose by playing mech (early game.) however i could just be talking out of my ass
Sorry you have to learn timings...? I thought this was starcraft?
|
|
|
On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP...
Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP...
Sigh.
|
On June 16 2012 20:19 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 09:36 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. compare pvt late game with tvz late game a haaaaaaaaaaaa... To be fair, before the EMP radius nerf, lategame TvP was definitely not P favored. There were tons of games where the Terran would just EMP the entire Protoss army and crush it easily. That, and 1/1/1 giving Terrans tons of easy wins, made for a pretty frustrating matchup for Protoss, and the winrates of that time support this.
In those times Protosses would try to fight with Templars in front, casting Feedbacks and preemptive Storms. Nowadays you let the Templars lag behind your main army a bit so you can engage the Ghosts first and then later cast the Storm. If you watch Parting do this you'll see that Ghosts do not counter High Templar at all. He even makes no Colossus at all and that means the HTs are forced to stay very far back and the battle goes on for quite a while, and the Protoss army takes a lot of damage before any HTs are in.
|
On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh.
LOL
User was warned for this post
|
On June 17 2012 01:39 50bani wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:19 Toadvine wrote:On June 16 2012 09:36 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. compare pvt late game with tvz late game a haaaaaaaaaaaa... To be fair, before the EMP radius nerf, lategame TvP was definitely not P favored. There were tons of games where the Terran would just EMP the entire Protoss army and crush it easily. That, and 1/1/1 giving Terrans tons of easy wins, made for a pretty frustrating matchup for Protoss, and the winrates of that time support this. In those times Protosses would try to fight with Templars in front, casting Feedbacks and preemptive Storms. Nowadays you let the Templars lag behind your main army a bit so you can engage the Ghosts first and then later cast the Storm. If you watch Parting do this you'll see that Ghosts do not counter High Templar at all. He even makes no Colossus at all and that means the HTs are forced to stay very far back and the battle goes on for quite a while, and the Protoss army takes a lot of damage before any HTs are in.
Pretty much... alot of the Terran dominance I believe, was coming from the fact that the game was new and people did not know how to really play. Now that the metagame has developed and strategies have been polished up, alot of those buffs/nerfs they put out are really pretty lame and unnecessary, they should have given players more time to develop counters to the supposedly "OP strategies" rather than just nerfing them.
|
On June 16 2012 21:31 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. This would actually make Ravens and BCs useful in TvZ
Ravens are already very very good vs zerg, just most Ts choose not to use them. Watch morrow off racing as T vs leenock in i think NASL a couple months ago.
|
|
|
On June 17 2012 01:44 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 21:31 teamhozac wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. This would actually make Ravens and BCs useful in TvZ Ravens are already very very good vs zerg, just most Ts choose not to use them. Watch morrow off racing as T vs leenock in i think NASL a couple months ago.
Lol, no, they definitely are not good vs zerg. Infestors butt rape them so easily its hilarious, the only players losing to them are ones who react improperly
|
|
|
On June 17 2012 01:43 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:39 50bani wrote:On June 16 2012 20:19 Toadvine wrote:On June 16 2012 09:36 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. compare pvt late game with tvz late game a haaaaaaaaaaaa... To be fair, before the EMP radius nerf, lategame TvP was definitely not P favored. There were tons of games where the Terran would just EMP the entire Protoss army and crush it easily. That, and 1/1/1 giving Terrans tons of easy wins, made for a pretty frustrating matchup for Protoss, and the winrates of that time support this. In those times Protosses would try to fight with Templars in front, casting Feedbacks and preemptive Storms. Nowadays you let the Templars lag behind your main army a bit so you can engage the Ghosts first and then later cast the Storm. If you watch Parting do this you'll see that Ghosts do not counter High Templar at all. He even makes no Colossus at all and that means the HTs are forced to stay very far back and the battle goes on for quite a while, and the Protoss army takes a lot of damage before any HTs are in. Pretty much... alot of the Terran dominance I believe, was coming from the fact that the game was new and people did not know how to really play. Now that the metagame has developed and strategies have been polished up, alot of those buffs/nerfs they put out are really pretty lame and unnecessary, they should have given players more time to develop counters to the supposedly "OP strategies" rather than just nerfing them.
Do you know how much the area of the EMP decreased because of the nerf? By 43%. Imagine EMP now, then imagine it with nearly twice the area. Just removing the energy on Templar was only half the problem, it was so powerful you could EMP pretty much a whole army with only ~3 Ghosts, even when decently spread out.
On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful.
No, they just don't. Zergs don't make Infestors as a reaction to Stargate, that's bullshit.
|
On June 17 2012 01:51 monkybone wrote:
Ravens are definitely not a midgame unit, but do their job before infestors/mutas are out, or in the late game vs sky Zerg in the current meta.
Raven build time is absolutely ridiculous- 60 seconds. And require two 150/150, 110 second upgrades to be useful. They are also slow, yet the range to use hunter seeker is so short that you are basically sacrificing the raven to use it.
You need multiple starports to build a decent number of them and need to start the upgrades pretty early to have them in time.
So compared to infestors, ravens are slower, more expensive, have a longer build time, need 2 upgrades instead of 1 and both upgrades take 30 seconds longer to research than pathogen glands, need 125 energy for their kill spell, and have less range.
There needs to be some kind of tweak in HOTS because the 'transition' to Ravens is not smooth at all. When they first pop out they are worthless, not to mention you will be sacrificing the production of the most important unit to the Terran army-- medivacs. The build time and insane gas investment also makes the transition whacky.
|
On June 17 2012 02:04 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:43 teamhozac wrote:On June 17 2012 01:39 50bani wrote:On June 16 2012 20:19 Toadvine wrote:On June 16 2012 09:36 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. compare pvt late game with tvz late game a haaaaaaaaaaaa... To be fair, before the EMP radius nerf, lategame TvP was definitely not P favored. There were tons of games where the Terran would just EMP the entire Protoss army and crush it easily. That, and 1/1/1 giving Terrans tons of easy wins, made for a pretty frustrating matchup for Protoss, and the winrates of that time support this. In those times Protosses would try to fight with Templars in front, casting Feedbacks and preemptive Storms. Nowadays you let the Templars lag behind your main army a bit so you can engage the Ghosts first and then later cast the Storm. If you watch Parting do this you'll see that Ghosts do not counter High Templar at all. He even makes no Colossus at all and that means the HTs are forced to stay very far back and the battle goes on for quite a while, and the Protoss army takes a lot of damage before any HTs are in. Pretty much... alot of the Terran dominance I believe, was coming from the fact that the game was new and people did not know how to really play. Now that the metagame has developed and strategies have been polished up, alot of those buffs/nerfs they put out are really pretty lame and unnecessary, they should have given players more time to develop counters to the supposedly "OP strategies" rather than just nerfing them. Do you know how much the area of the EMP decreased because of the nerf? By 43%. Imagine EMP now, then imagine it with nearly twice the area. Just removing the energy on Templar was only half the problem, it was so powerful you could EMP pretty much a whole army with only ~3 Ghosts, even when decently spread out. Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful. No, they just don't. Zergs don't make Infestors as a reaction to Stargate, that's bullshit.
This.
It was virtually impossible to get decent storms against Ghost-centric armies pre-patch. You could invest in 5-ish Ghosts and have the effectiveness of 10+ as they are right now. It was insanity.
|
|
|
|
|
Raven is irrelevant in the "early game".
|
On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful.
I'm actually fine with Fungal doing damage to air (as a dot, same as plague in BW). It's the root that I find stupid. You don't see me argue that Storm should freeze air units because it's so easy for Mutas to snipe Templar. But god forbid there be anything in the game that Infestors aren't good against.
|
late game if you have like 10-15 ravens waiting to hsm everything, you are relying on zerg to be bad and not fungaling them because fungal out ranges by quite a bit. 1 fungal = 2000 gas units dead, pretty silly atm
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
