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On June 17 2012 02:35 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful. I'm actually fine with Fungal doing damage to air (as a dot, same as plague in BW). It's the root that I find stupid. You don't see me argue that Storm should freeze air units because it's so easy for Mutas to snipe Templar. But god forbid there be anything in the game that Infestors aren't good against.
Having micro reducing abilities is the worst thing that Blizzard put into WoL imo. Fungal and FF and even Marauder's slow. It's awful cause 2 of the 3 are totally necessary.
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As you can see my sentence was clearly targeting the term "early game"
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[–]sheltered 27 points 7 hours ago*
I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate.
LOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Comon zerg, as a terran, I'm dying from the anticipation at what unit your gonna complain about next. Should we buff the Broodlords some more? How about nerfing the raven? That autoturret, clearly the most overpowered unit of all time. I heard queens are still too weak, they should be able to do splash damage. For gods sake, they cost ONE HUNDRED FIFTY MINERALS! That's 3 marines, wtf. Perhaps splash damage and detection for extra "balance." Maybe we should make it so that terrans' keyboards don't work early game - our early game builds are clearly too strong. Better they be as strong as marine-medivac vs. infestor broodlords no?
Edit: lmao, just watched flash vs. roro. Flash was previously 5-0 against roro, and just lost for the first time today haha. Must be because roro is actually a secret bonjwa, and not because the TvZ is retardedly unbalanced atm.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 17 2012 02:35 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful. I'm actually fine with Fungal doing damage to air (as a dot, same as plague in BW). It's the root that I find stupid. You don't see me argue that Storm should freeze air units because it's so easy for Mutas to snipe Templar. But god forbid there be anything in the game that Infestors aren't good against.
What annoys is me is that one spellcaster unit is all the anti-air that a zerg needs, and can hold off air heavy plays with fungals and infested terrans, as well as destroy ground movement. Why should zerg be rewarded for making one spellcaster to deflect all air? Protoss doesn't depend solely on templar storms and archons to destroy vikings, they mix in some stalkers usually. And post-snipe nerf, ghosts don't actually matter versus zerg-air and our options are vikings, ravens and marines to shoot down BLs... all deflected by fungal.
The overdone joke about marines walking in to a bar and finding no counter is retarded, it was an infested marine walking into a bar on behalf of that bloody infestor.
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On June 17 2012 03:04 Falconblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:35 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful. I'm actually fine with Fungal doing damage to air (as a dot, same as plague in BW). It's the root that I find stupid. You don't see me argue that Storm should freeze air units because it's so easy for Mutas to snipe Templar. But god forbid there be anything in the game that Infestors aren't good against. What annoys is me is that one spellcaster unit is all the anti-air that a zerg needs, and can hold off air heavy plays with fungals and infested terrans, as well as destroy ground movement. Why should zerg be rewarded for making one spellcaster to deflect all air? Protoss doesn't depend solely on templar storms and archons to destroy vikings, they mix in some stalkers usually. And post-snipe nerf, ghosts don't actually matter versus zerg-air and our options are vikings, ravens and marines to shoot down BLs... all deflected by fungal. The overdone joke about marines walking in to a bar and finding no counter is retarded, it was an infested marine walking into a bar on behalf of that bloody infestor.
I honestly feel that fungal should be a snare or a damage dealer, not both.
A snare fits more with it's initial design - snare units for ultras, banelings, surrounds, or to buy time.
The damage should be reduced to 5 and the energy cost should be reduced to 50.
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Infestors are clearly way too versatile, and ravens not enough so.
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On June 17 2012 03:04 Falconblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:35 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful. I'm actually fine with Fungal doing damage to air (as a dot, same as plague in BW). It's the root that I find stupid. You don't see me argue that Storm should freeze air units because it's so easy for Mutas to snipe Templar. But god forbid there be anything in the game that Infestors aren't good against. What annoys is me is that one spellcaster unit is all the anti-air that a zerg needs, and can hold off air heavy plays with fungals and infested terrans, as well as destroy ground movement. Why should zerg be rewarded for making one spellcaster to deflect all air? Protoss doesn't depend solely on templar storms and archons to destroy vikings, they mix in some stalkers usually. And post-snipe nerf, ghosts don't actually matter versus zerg-air and our options are vikings, ravens and marines to shoot down BLs... all deflected by fungal. The overdone joke about marines walking in to a bar and finding no counter is retarded, it was an infested marine walking into a bar on behalf of that bloody infestor.
The thing is, if you were to nerf fungal vs air then you would need to buff hydralisks (or reduce spire build time), and then people would just complain about hydras instead of fungal.
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That's not the way a nerf goes. If every nerf would come along a buff to one of your other units, the raven would be overpowered by now..
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On June 17 2012 03:43 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:04 Falconblade wrote:On June 17 2012 02:35 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful. I'm actually fine with Fungal doing damage to air (as a dot, same as plague in BW). It's the root that I find stupid. You don't see me argue that Storm should freeze air units because it's so easy for Mutas to snipe Templar. But god forbid there be anything in the game that Infestors aren't good against. What annoys is me is that one spellcaster unit is all the anti-air that a zerg needs, and can hold off air heavy plays with fungals and infested terrans, as well as destroy ground movement. Why should zerg be rewarded for making one spellcaster to deflect all air? Protoss doesn't depend solely on templar storms and archons to destroy vikings, they mix in some stalkers usually. And post-snipe nerf, ghosts don't actually matter versus zerg-air and our options are vikings, ravens and marines to shoot down BLs... all deflected by fungal. The overdone joke about marines walking in to a bar and finding no counter is retarded, it was an infested marine walking into a bar on behalf of that bloody infestor. The thing is, if you were to nerf fungal vs air then you would need to buff hydralisks (or reduce spire build time), and then people would just complain about hydras instead of fungal.
You could nerf fungal by air without buffing hydralisks.
I have always thought that Fungal should be a 'Slow' that deals 'Acid Dmg Over Time'. That way its still microable. And you can get your air units away.
1 fungal shouldn't spell win/defeat
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On June 17 2012 03:54 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:43 hzflank wrote:On June 17 2012 03:04 Falconblade wrote:On June 17 2012 02:35 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:47 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 01:13 Toadvine wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 monkybone wrote:On June 16 2012 21:27 SeaSwift wrote:On June 16 2012 20:26 Evangelist wrote:
If fungal lost the ability to hit air, zerg might play more conservatively. It always pisses me off when Phoenix die in ZvP as soon as they fly in range of Infestors. It's really silly. Making FG not hit air would also encourage players to use Warp Prisms, Medivacs and Mutas more. That would actually just make infestors useless in ZvP... Yeah, I mean, we all know Zergs only make Infestors against Stargate play in ZvP... Sigh. First of all, they usually do... But it's not about the infestors' efficiency vs stargate units, but phoenixes' efficiency versus infestors. If fungal didn't hit air, the phoenixes could easily pick off infestors, and it would simply be too powerful. I'm actually fine with Fungal doing damage to air (as a dot, same as plague in BW). It's the root that I find stupid. You don't see me argue that Storm should freeze air units because it's so easy for Mutas to snipe Templar. But god forbid there be anything in the game that Infestors aren't good against. What annoys is me is that one spellcaster unit is all the anti-air that a zerg needs, and can hold off air heavy plays with fungals and infested terrans, as well as destroy ground movement. Why should zerg be rewarded for making one spellcaster to deflect all air? Protoss doesn't depend solely on templar storms and archons to destroy vikings, they mix in some stalkers usually. And post-snipe nerf, ghosts don't actually matter versus zerg-air and our options are vikings, ravens and marines to shoot down BLs... all deflected by fungal. The overdone joke about marines walking in to a bar and finding no counter is retarded, it was an infested marine walking into a bar on behalf of that bloody infestor. The thing is, if you were to nerf fungal vs air then you would need to buff hydralisks (or reduce spire build time), and then people would just complain about hydras instead of fungal. You could nerf fungal by air without buffing hydralisks. I have always thought that Fungal should be a 'Slow' that deals 'Acid Dmg Over Time'. That way its still microable. And you can get your air units away. 1 fungal shouldn't spell win/defeat
I did too. But if you do that it would just be ensnare from BW that dealt dmg, and blizzard wants "new spells."
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I always thought that FG should not hit air, or choose between dmg and stun. It makes Protoss and Terran air perform very bad in general and because of this mass BL-Infestor is so strong. Blizzard knows this though, as they've tryed to change it at one point.
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the problem in tvz right now is not air or fungal. The problem is an early game unit for zerg that only needs minerals and spawning pool tech and counters pretty much everything terran can throw at zerg early on, while spreading creep and injecting larva. this unit and only this unit is making terran openers, that worked well enough to keep the matchup fair, useless and therefor we have terrible winrates in TvZ at all skill levels and watch TvZ games, where Zerg needs to make some serious blunders to enable the terran to win.
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Regarding fungal vs air, I think I read a few months back, David Kim commenting that the same patch which saw the void ray speed nerf would also have seen a fungal nerf so that it only affected ground. However, I think they chose not to go ahead with it in the patch because of negative reaction from Zerg pros (Catz being one, IIRC).
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I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate.
Wow, looking pretty bleak for Terran... I am curious to see what the ladder statistics are at right now... I have not played this season and neither have 2 of my Terran friends, anyone keeping track of ladder stats?
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Terran is the sc2 Protoss... i'm glad that i switched to terran in sc2  , keeping it real with the race that loses the most.
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It´s funny 3 month ago everyone talks about the Ghost nerf and how difficult tvz lategame is.
The problem is that what the zergs critisiced is now complety backwards. the "problem" of reactor hellions was that it was too cost efficiant for map controll, base denieing and potential harras. Now with 4 queens you are compleetly save in the early game and can spread creep like crazy. look at gstla with 15 aktive creep tumors. There is no way to push that in the midgame.
so the Zergs have the early game, with mass ling infestor the midgame and the better units lategame.
tvz was the best matchup for a long time with ling/bling/muta vs Marine/Tank/micro. They turned it into cheese/be a league better/just die for terran.
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On June 17 2012 05:27 USvBleakill wrote:
It´s funny 3 month ago everyone talks about the Ghost nerf and how difficult tvz lategame is.
The problem is that what the zergs critisiced is now complety backwards. the "problem" of reactor hellions was that it was too cost efficiant for map controll, base denieing and potential harras. Now with 4 queens you are compleetly save in the early game and can spread creep like crazy. look at gstla with 15 aktive creep tumors. There is no way to push that in the midgame.
so the Zergs have the early game, with mass ling infestor the midgame and the better units lategame.
tvz was the best matchup for a long time with ling/bling/muta vs Marine/Tank/micro. They turned it into cheese/be a league better/just die for terran.
Seriously, so many dumb, unnecesary changes by Blizzard
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Wonder when blizzard will realize that zerg is fuckign overpowered Its funny that i had 1500 points last season and i lose to zergs who had 1000p. Its also funny that i play 2 races terran and protoss. Im gm with toss where all my matchups are over 60% winrate, where as my highmaster terran i have 70% winrate in tvp, 60% in tvt and 35% tvz. How is it possible that i suck so badly in one matchup out of 6? Oh and i lost 20 games on purpose and im losing to diamond zergs who can press A key.
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LOL.
Of course TvZ went to shit in Korea. The Korean ladder is cheesy as fuck, so all of the terrans used to quick one base wins suddenly had to relearn the game.
If anything the 60/40 ratio shows progress. It will come down when terrans develop better midgame strategies.
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EPT
