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On June 17 2012 05:40 TheDraken wrote:
LOL.
Of course TvZ went to shit in Korea. The Korean ladder is cheesy as fuck, so all of the terrans used to quick one base wins suddenly had to relearn the game.
If anything the 60/40 ratio shows progress. It will come down when terrans develop better midgame strategies.
I hate to break it to you man, but this isn't early 2011 anymore.
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On June 17 2012 05:40 TheDraken wrote:
LOL.
Of course TvZ went to shit in Korea. The Korean ladder is cheesy as fuck, so all of the terrans used to quick one base wins suddenly had to relearn the game.
If anything the 60/40 ratio shows progress. It will come down when terrans develop better midgame strategies.
Yeah, making 4 Hellions is so cheesy...
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On June 07 2012 18:00 SolidMoose wrote:The way GSTL is going it's gonna be even worse for June. I hope this is a wake up call to blizzard for implementing unnecessary buffs.
I'm assuming you mean the queen buff. If so how is making sure queens can't be infinatly kited unnecessary? lol pretty funny that people think this but oh well lol.
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On June 17 2012 05:51 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:40 TheDraken wrote:
LOL.
Of course TvZ went to shit in Korea. The Korean ladder is cheesy as fuck, so all of the terrans used to quick one base wins suddenly had to relearn the game.
If anything the 60/40 ratio shows progress. It will come down when terrans develop better midgame strategies. Yeah, making 4 Hellions is so cheesy...
No you are wrong. If the Terran makes anything other than SCVs it's cheese! And you know Zergs don't like Cheese to go with their whine.
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On June 17 2012 05:54 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 18:00 SolidMoose wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQdiscuss! i like tvz in korea, the queen buff was necessary in my opinion The way GSTL is going it's gonna be even worse for June. I hope this is a wake up call to blizzard for implementing unnecessary buffs. I'm assuming you mean the queen buff. If so how is making sure queens can't be infinatly kited unnecessary? lol pretty funny that people think this but oh well lol.
Because it means you get a free third, map control, and Creep halfway across the map in 10 minutes.
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Just looked Stephano vs Puma... Stephano with 15k more units lost and Puma multitasked drops like god. But here comes the infestors....
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On June 17 2012 06:36 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:09 USvBleakill wrote:
Just looked Stephano vs Puma... Stephano with 15k more units lost and Puma multitasked drops like god. But here comes the infestors.... That game had nothing to do with the queen buff, and had nothing to do with balance. Stephano had better engagements and a better economy. Puma was behind from the start, remember?
queen buff assures from the very beginning that zerg will have a better economy, and the creep spread and denial of harass and quicker safe infestors insure that zerg can have better engagements. I don't know the specific game referred to, but I hate when examples are dismissed as not being because of the queen buiff because they didn't involve queens killing command centers. Every single phase of TvZ is affected by the queen change.
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On June 17 2012 06:45 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:40 Horseballs wrote:On June 17 2012 06:36 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 06:09 USvBleakill wrote:
Just looked Stephano vs Puma... Stephano with 15k more units lost and Puma multitasked drops like god. But here comes the infestors.... That game had nothing to do with the queen buff, and had nothing to do with balance. Stephano had better engagements and a better economy. Puma was behind from the start, remember? queen buff assures from the very beginning that zerg will have a better economy, and the creep spread and denial of harass and quicker safe infestors insure that zerg can have better engagements. I don't know the specific game referred to, but I hate when examples are dismissed as not being because of the queen buiff because they didn't involve queens killing command centers. Every single phase of TvZ is affected by the queen change. Sure, but this game Puma opened 1 rax FE into 3 rax, and took massive damage from a 2 base roach bane timing. While the buff changed the metagame unfavorably for Terran, you can't just blame every Terran loss proof of imbalance.
Why do you think Puma 1rax FEd?
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Maybe they can nerf baneling damage to buildings so terran players dont have to defend perfectly bane pressures(sDDDDDD after "allin" ) One mis micro from terran and every scv and marine etc dies.
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On June 17 2012 06:53 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:50 Shiori wrote:On June 17 2012 06:45 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 06:40 Horseballs wrote:On June 17 2012 06:36 monkybone wrote:On June 17 2012 06:09 USvBleakill wrote:
Just looked Stephano vs Puma... Stephano with 15k more units lost and Puma multitasked drops like god. But here comes the infestors.... That game had nothing to do with the queen buff, and had nothing to do with balance. Stephano had better engagements and a better economy. Puma was behind from the start, remember? queen buff assures from the very beginning that zerg will have a better economy, and the creep spread and denial of harass and quicker safe infestors insure that zerg can have better engagements. I don't know the specific game referred to, but I hate when examples are dismissed as not being because of the queen buiff because they didn't involve queens killing command centers. Every single phase of TvZ is affected by the queen change. Sure, but this game Puma opened 1 rax FE into 3 rax, and took massive damage from a 2 base roach bane timing. While the buff changed the metagame unfavorably for Terran, you can't just blame every Terran loss proof of imbalance. Why do you think Puma 1rax FEd? Or CC 1st, I didn't catch the beginning. Anyway, the point still stands.
That a zerg can do a ridiculously strong timing despite expanding as fast as the terran and then droning behind it? That's pretty unfair that a zerg can not only surpass the terran macro while simultaneously pushing with a timing that is hard to hold and which you need to prevent damage. Atleast without queen buff, you could scout it out and have some map control with hellions so you knew it was coming. Now it's difficult to scout to the level that Terran are in the same position as zerg were pre-overlord buff. We don't know whether to expect a timing, or even more intense macro. because we simply can't get in without perfect scans (we can't catch everything with scans, and hey, that puts us even more behind in macro).
The queen buff just reversed TvZ roles majorly. TvZ was almost balanced before the patch, and with the overlord buff it would have been on par or so. Now it's been overshot.
Besides why should a Terran be penalized for 1 rax FE being "greedy" when zerg goes hatch first every fucking game?
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Blizzard severely underestimated the damage the Queen buff would do to the TvZ matchup.
I think it also made PvZ harder too by a little bit, but I predict a metagame shift at the higher levels in favour of Zerg anyway for PvZ, so the effect was minimal. Protoss has to invent a new equivalent of the +1 4gate Zealot timing, because the recent ones have all been figured out.
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On 6-17-2012 Catatonic wrote
I'm assuming you mean the queen buff. If so how is making sure queens can't be infinatly kited unnecessary? lol pretty funny that people think this but oh well lol.
What the hell is wrong with being able to kite a unit? It involves this thing called micro. If being kiteable means you need a buff, then why dont we just increase the range of every unit in the game so nothing can be kited infinitely? Zergs didnt have a problem with hellions before as all you needed to do was build roaches or spines. It's a stupid buff to be sure.
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The thing is, if you were to nerf fungal vs air then you would need to buff hydralisks (or reduce spire build time), and then people would just complain about hydras instead of fungal.
Gee i wonder what they are doing in HOTS? Lol
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On June 17 2012 05:54 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 18:00 SolidMoose wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQdiscuss! i like tvz in korea, the queen buff was necessary in my opinion The way GSTL is going it's gonna be even worse for June. I hope this is a wake up call to blizzard for implementing unnecessary buffs. I'm assuming you mean the queen buff. If so how is making sure queens can't be infinatly kited unnecessary? lol pretty funny that people think this but oh well lol.
Yeah maybe give marines 1 more range so stalkers cant kite them infinitely
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On June 17 2012 05:54 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:51 Shiori wrote:On June 17 2012 05:40 TheDraken wrote:
LOL.
Of course TvZ went to shit in Korea. The Korean ladder is cheesy as fuck, so all of the terrans used to quick one base wins suddenly had to relearn the game.
If anything the 60/40 ratio shows progress. It will come down when terrans develop better midgame strategies. Yeah, making 4 Hellions is so cheesy... No you are wrong. If the Terran makes anything other than SCVs it's cheese! And you know Zergs don't like Cheese to go with their whine.
LOL punning gold XDDDDD Did other people not catch this?
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On June 17 2012 07:12 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:54 Catatonic wrote:On June 07 2012 18:00 SolidMoose wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQdiscuss! i like tvz in korea, the queen buff was necessary in my opinion The way GSTL is going it's gonna be even worse for June. I hope this is a wake up call to blizzard for implementing unnecessary buffs. I'm assuming you mean the queen buff. If so how is making sure queens can't be infinatly kited unnecessary? lol pretty funny that people think this but oh well lol. Yeah maybe give marines 1 more range so stalkers cant kite them infinitely
They can't. Stalkers will always take damage when kiting marines. If you include shield regen then yes, but that's unfeasible and ultimately pretty irrelevant. They can kite to a certain degree, but it's not "infinitely".
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On June 17 2012 05:54 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 18:00 SolidMoose wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQdiscuss! i like tvz in korea, the queen buff was necessary in my opinion The way GSTL is going it's gonna be even worse for June. I hope this is a wake up call to blizzard for implementing unnecessary buffs. I'm assuming you mean the queen buff. If so how is making sure queens can't be infinatly kited unnecessary? lol pretty funny that people think this but oh well lol.
Because the queen shouldn't be a good at everything unit. If you don't want to be infinitely kited, you should be forced to make units, roaches or speedling. Zergs need queens anyways to macro so making them good at defending every thing terran can throw at them early game has completely killed TvZ. TvZ was all about punishing the zerg for droning too hard so that his economy doesn't explode, forcing him to make units.
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EPT
