TLPD Winrates May 2012 - Page 50

On June 17 2012 11:40 Neurosis wrote:


It was not OP, zergs just couldn't have cared less about trying to gain map control, only massing drones. With both of these new changes now zergs CAN mass drones without having to worry about any sort of map control or threat whatsoever. It's fine though players like MVP will still find ways to win at the gsl, he is just too smart. No matter how hard Blizzard nerfs terran the korean players still find ways to win lol.

On June 17 2012 08:52 Biggun69 wrote:
Lol, terran dominate for the entirety of sc2 in TvZ and now that zerg are having a few months of good % winrate in that match up doesn't mean we should be qqing. Terrans will find a way to adapt don't worry.

On June 17 2012 11:39 Advocado wrote:
queen buff tipped the balance in tvz it seems, but I still think the hellion opener was borderline op before. Considering how little was invested into the hellions and how powerful they were for minerals only they were making the game stale. Zergs was playing pretty blind at times before the overlord speed buff/queen buff. Perhaps both was not needed. Maybe theyll bring back the old blue flame?

On June 17 2012 11:45 Najda wrote:


The amount you would have to invest to kill those hellions would put you all in or behind though.

On June 17 2012 11:40 Neurosis wrote:


It was not OP, zergs just couldn't have cared less about trying to gain map control, only massing drones. With both of these new changes now zergs CAN mass drones without having to worry about any sort of map control or threat whatsoever. It's fine though players like MVP will still find ways to win at the gsl, he is just too smart. No matter how hard Blizzard nerfs terran the korean players still find ways to win lol.

On June 17 2012 11:58 Ziggitz wrote:


Yes it was clearly overpowered. You could not deal with the hellions with lings, with roaches you could push them back but not take map control because you need lair for roach speed. Moving out with those roaches left you vulnerable to run by's. If you went for mutas there was no way to catch the Terran off guard and he could have his third down before you started to take your own. Any kind of push out on the map was either futile or a complete all in. Additionally two base timing pushes were stupidly powerful because they arrived before it was feasible to have baneling speed and you could not have enough creep spread out to compensate for it.

We sat through 4-5 months of Zergs consistently entering the mid game behind without taking harassing damage and plenty of times outright dying to phase one of a macro build where 4-6 hellions were dealing crippling damage to the Zerg, effectively ending the game before it began. I don't know how any person with the intelligence to operate a keyboard could be dumb enough to not realize how broken it was.

Zerg has had to deal with a lot of bullshit in this game regarding openers and its good to see that we're being given some level of stability. Meanwhile Terrans are continuing along expecting all their usual bullshit to working and QQing when it doesn't. It's not our fault you forgot how to deny creep spread in the midgame because you've had a pass on it for so long. It's not imbalanced that in 1 in 5 TvZ you're not going to auto win from a hellion run by anymore. It's not imbalanced that Your win rates are dropping because of the fact that as a whole Terrans are unbelievably stubborn and refuse to adapt their play when they have the most tools at hand to explore and the most cost effective units in the game to make use of. Get over yourselves and start addressing the flaws in your choice of strategies and you'll start pulling those win rates back in your favor.

consistently entering the mid game behind without taking harassing damage and plenty of times outright dying to phase one of a macro build where 4-6 queens were dealing crippling damage to the Terran harassment options, effectively ending the game before it began. I don't know how any person with the intelligence to operate a keyboard could be dumb enough to not realize how broken it is.

On June 17 2012 12:13 GTPGlitch wrote:



What?

good simcity at the natural (which, hey, terrans have to do all the time!), one spine at the natural, and four roaches and you could take your third. Tech to mutas and you can kill the hellions with ease or at least force them back, and you also had the option of getting extra queens to guard the creep extension.

If terran "haven't explored all their options", please tell me what clever ideas for an opener you have. Fast 3rd CC->fast raven harass?

Maybe go fast reapers?

Oh wait, reapers got nerfed.

Early barracks bunker pressure into expand?

Oh wait, bunkers and barracks got nerfed.

Fast hellions for map control into expand?

Oh wait, queens got buffed.

Get the picture?

And seriously, if you were on 2base and you didn't have units or a wall in place to stop a 6-hellion runby and lost all your drones, you deserve to lose.

And at this point in the metagame, we are entering a period of time where Terrans are

What?

good simcity at the natural (which, hey, terrans have to do all the time!), one spine at the natural, and four roaches and you could take your third. Tech to mutas and you can kill the hellions with ease or at least force them back, and you also had the option of getting extra queens to guard the creep extension.

On June 17 2012 12:36 Ziggitz wrote:


That's a good point except it's total bullshit. Top level Zergs were dying all the fucking time to 4-6 hellions running by when they had two spines and 4 queens plus a hnadful of lings. Go back and watch the Blizzard Cup finals on dual sight where MMA gets 4 hellions into DRG's main and when there are two left after they;'ve roasted tons of drones they are literally runnig circles around DRG's main because it's actually impossible for queens or slow lings to catch hellions regardless of creep. It was a fucking joke. Unless you actually had a perfect seal with your sim city nothing matter because the queens would get maybe one or two 8 damage swipes off at your hellions and the spines would hit once or twice and then you'd have 4-6 near full health hellions that you would never kill until the Terran stopped microing them or he willingly took damage on them to get a really good drone roast.

Teching to mutas was not an answer even now Zergs are still going infestor ling with double evo's because mutas have been largely figured out by Terrans, it turns out not being able to favorably engage marines unless you have more than a 4:1 cost advantage over them caught up to them in the end. Two base muta play against a Terran you cannot hide it from who is landing his third CC before you plant your third base is fucking stupid. Even then you have to get all the way up to muta tech just to shoo the hellions back home at which point you are behind the Terran in workers and bases and he can easily have thors, missile turrets and better upgrades than you.

First of all, that is map dependent. So we might need 1-2 evo chambers (2 drones + 75 mins each), 1-2 spines, RW, 4 roaches, WHILE droning, attempting to scout, and THEN we can take a third?

Meanwhile, Terran opens up with 4 hellions, gets 1-2 banshees, drops his 3rd CC, and denies our third with banshees. So now we invested all that static defense for the purpose of a third that we can't even take?

The only times Zergs got up a third before 9 mins in ZvT was if the Terran was dumb and went 14cc or 1 rax FE, or decided to not go hellion banshee --> 3 CC.

On the subject of Terran adaptation:

I see NO terrans at my level in masters making 3-5 ghosts just to EMP infestors. Did they forget they have a spellcaster just because they can't mass snipe? Did they forget that nukes are still very good late game? Did they forget that they already have multiple rax with tech labs since they're making marauders since every Z is going ultras?

On the subject of Terran takes most micro

I mean jeez. Terrans talk all this "our micro is so hard" jazz, nobody is expecting you to have a MKP marine split anymore. A simple pre-split of your army does WONDERS against ling/infestor. Using single cloak banshees to target infestors does even more wonders, just shift click through them. But instead I see even GSL Terrans just ball up their armies and just go against infestors, no ghosts, and expect it to work? That's like me 1a-ing my army up a ramp into a siege line and complaining that Terran takes no micro.

On June 17 2012 11:50 ZeromuS wrote:


Ok, for the billionth time the cheaper upgrades save toss enough resources to buy and bear with me here something like 2 stalkers and a zealot.

There was a blog post by QXC saying that toss doesn't even have enough chrono to always chrono upgrades non stop. Protoss gets ups a bit quicker but we started doing that because emp timings were so good that we couldn't survive without the ups. Then we had some dominance with 2 base 3-3 ups. In comes the Terran fast 3 CC (3rd mining fast too) double engi bay build that is standard now off a gasless FE.

The builds were used before the "buff" that wasn't a buff at all. It made our upgrades minimally cheaper. At the moment I start 2-2 I have enough gas to buy me one stalker.

The buff did so little its not even funny in terms of how a game normally progresses.

Found the QXC thing here: http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/blog.php?b=1983

The nerfs that hurt terran in TvP are the ghost emp nerf and ghost cost "buff".

In reality, the old emp was stupid strong. It had 44% more surface area than storm has now. Imagine if Storm was as big as old EMP. That is what protoss was like. You could use 3 emps and hit an entire army and you didn't need to hit them perfectly the whole army was done. All that blizz did was change the size of emp to be in line with the two other AoE spells: Fungal and storm.

I think blizz needs to revert the ghost cost change from a long time ago if anything since terran needs more gas dumps and needs to keep as much minerals as possible to build their bio force.

When we look at it reasonably Terran was very strong and they got nerfed and they continue to win. The exception being right this moment. Where if Terran goes into lategame vs Protoss with poor ghost control or not enough emp they seem to have a very tough time.

I feel that at the higher levels when ghosts are controlled really well Protoss has troubles and it ends up being very even. Whoever has the better caster control tends to win the game. Using a LOT of medivacs has really helped Terrans lately survive more than they did when they didn't have as many medivacs. The difficulty lies in the tech switch or combo between collossi and HT with storm. Im not saying protoss isn't having an easier time atm but its not like protoss insta wins every game. There are a lot of opportunities to outplay the protoss throughout the game as Terran and we have seen this recently in GSL and other tournies.

This kind of thing can be worked out more than likely. When its unit interactions in the late game its hard to balance because everything leading up to the lategame could make a difference.

Though TvZ seems to be going through a major major shift right now so let the dust settle in a month and see where it stands, though it doesn't look good. Only because imo even with losing 15 - 20 drones TvZ was still quite close throughout the game where multitasking drops and harass was the key to winning. Now it seems like Queens are protecting the Zerg enough that they get a huge advantage in the harass mid game phase of the game, making it easier for zerg to defend not only Hellions early but ALL harass options later off the back of a stronger econ. Add into this the greater creep spread because Zerg can spread creep from the moment they get queens out safely and damn its making it tough on Terrans.

I hope to see better denial of creep sooner, like maybe raven banshee to detect and kill tumours and cloak to protect from queens? I think the key to terrans doing better right now might lie in part on keeping the creep from being on terrans side of the map at minute 12.

Whoa, Wall of Text O.O

On June 17 2012 12:36 Ziggitz wrote:


That's a good point except it's total bullshit. Top level Zergs were dying all the fucking time to 4-6 hellions running by when they had two spines and 4 queens plus a hnadful of lings. Go back and watch the Blizzard Cup finals on dual sight where MMA gets 4 hellions into DRG's main and when there are two left after they;'ve roasted tons of drones they are literally runnig circles around DRG's main because it's actually impossible for queens or slow lings to catch hellions regardless of creep. It was a fucking joke. Unless you actually had a perfect seal with your sim city nothing matter because the queens would get maybe one or two 8 damage swipes off at your hellions and the spines would hit once or twice and then you'd have 4-6 near full health hellions that you would never kill until the Terran stopped microing them or he willingly took damage on them to get a really good drone roast.

Teching to mutas was not an answer even now Zergs are still going infestor ling with double evo's because mutas have been largely figured out by Terrans, it turns out not being able to favorably engage marines unless you have more than a 4:1 cost advantage over them caught up to them in the end. Two base muta play against a Terran you cannot hide it from who is landing his third CC before you plant your third base is fucking stupid. Even then you have to get all the way up to muta tech just to shoo the hellions back home at which point you are behind the Terran in workers and bases and he can easily have thors, missile turrets and better upgrades than you.

On June 17 2012 09:43 Poehalcho wrote:


No offence, but with all the nerfs we've had so far... That's what terrans have been doing for about 2 years already. Now after the billionth nerf (or buff for the others >__>) has hit, we're desperately starting to run low on units we can run to for survival. We can't snipe, we can't burn, we can't gun down, we can't blow up nor stampede with mech. We've got nuts. NOTHING. we can't expand faster, we can't attack, nor can we defend anymore. A zerg can get enough banelings for a safe win faster than a terran can get the tanks he needs to shoot them all down.

It's become absolutely ridiculous. My MMR dropped from high plat/low Dia to barely winning against silver.
I've lost basically all of my last 30 TvZ's. I even lost to a fucking zerg that thought I was a protoss ffs.

That's like two and a half leagues lower because of a single buff. How is that balanced?!? These patches hit the lower leagues way harder than the top. Top players can often just muscle through with micro but we can't.

Even worse is the fact that Z now seems to occupy about 60% of the ladder. 30% toss and maybe 10% terran.

Toss isn't particularly great either. The upgrades buff and obs buff were overkill. How is it fair that toss gets faster, cheapers upgrades when they don't even have tech paths. And I've never even heard anybody whine about toss scouting. They had illusion phoenix and obs weren't hard to get at all...

On June 17 2012 11:58 Ziggitz wrote:


Yes it was clearly overpowered. You could not deal with the hellions with lings, with roaches you could push them back but not take map control because you need lair for roach speed. Moving out with those roaches left you vulnerable to run by's. If you went for mutas there was no way to catch the Terran off guard and he could have his third down before you started to take your own. Any kind of push out on the map was either futile or a complete all in. Additionally two base timing pushes were stupidly powerful because they arrived before it was feasible to have baneling speed and you could not have enough creep spread out to compensate for it.

We sat through 4-5 months of Zergs consistently entering the mid game behind without taking harassing damage and plenty of times outright dying to phase one of a macro build where 4-6 hellions were dealing crippling damage to the Zerg, effectively ending the game before it began. I don't know how any person with the intelligence to operate a keyboard could be dumb enough to not realize how broken it was.

Zerg has had to deal with a lot of bullshit in this game regarding openers and its good to see that we're being given some level of stability. Meanwhile Terrans are continuing along expecting all their usual bullshit to working and QQing when it doesn't. It's not our fault you forgot how to deny creep spread in the midgame because you've had a pass on it for so long. It's not imbalanced that in 1 in 5 TvZ you're not going to auto win from a hellion run by anymore. It's not imbalanced that Your win rates are dropping because of the fact that as a whole Terrans are unbelievably stubborn and refuse to adapt their play when they have the most tools at hand to explore and the most cost effective units in the game to make use of. Get over yourselves and start addressing the flaws in your choice of strategies and you'll start pulling those win rates back in your favor.

That's a good point except its total bullshit. Go back 2-3 months before the queen buff and zergs were never losing to hellion runbys.

I would generally categorize good simcity as having a perfect seal. There's no point to it otherwise (with zerg at least). Hell, spines can move. make full walls and fill a 2-hex hole with a single spine, move it aside when you want to let things out.

Also, i find it funny that you mention blizzard cup. Wanna know why?

End Date: 2011-12-17

That's six months ago. That's when the reactor hellion opening was just becoming popular. That's when people were still going mutas.

And why wait so long to start third? Hellions can't kill it, so use good simcity to block natural and send out your roaches to push them off. If you make, say, 5 mutas, you spend 600/600 to cement map control, force turrets, thors, or a split of the terran army, and if he has a third before you why not just allin? That's what pretty much every zerg does against fast 3cc/hellion builds, because one banshee actually can't kill an army!~

Morrow and DRG have both said that the queen buff was too strong/unnecessary (that i've seen), and pretty much no zergs have lost to a hellion runby in forever.

On June 17 2012 14:38 Ziggitz wrote:



The slayers team's hellion bullds that swept an entire MLG and popularized hellions were back in July 2011 6 months before that tournament. You're full of it.

On June 17 2012 15:38 Orracle wrote:
I feel the Zerg style of play right now is one of the issues behind this queen buff. It is hit 80 drones as soon as possible, and then start making units. Zergs want Terran to adapt, yet they refused to ever adapt. I specifically remember watching Puma do mass hellion game after game when he won NASL, and not a single Zerg adapted to it. Every game it was literally droning as hard as they could, cutting every corner they could, and then being caught off guard when there were a handful of hellions against their spine crawler.