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On June 17 2012 16:39 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 14:38 Ziggitz wrote:That's a good point except its total bullshit. Go back 2-3 months before the queen buff and zergs were never losing to hellion runbys. ??? I don't even know how to respond to this level of delusion. I would generally categorize good simcity as having a perfect seal. There's no point to it otherwise (with zerg at least). Hell, spines can move. make full walls and fill a 2-hex hole with a single spine, move it aside when you want to let things out. You're still stuck in your base with no means to expand against a race that is at a huge advantage staying on even bases with you. And you still needed to build at least one extra queen that can't spread creep or roaches because Zerg buildings cannot actually wall off cost effectively with spines because they don't make a perfect seal unless the grid lines up just right with your hatchery. Also, i find it funny that you mention blizzard cup. Wanna know why?
End Date: 2011-12-17
That's six months ago. That's when the reactor hellion opening was just becoming popular. That's when people were still going mutas.
The slayers team's hellion bullds that swept an entire MLG and popularized hellions were back in July 2011 6 months before that tournament. You're full of it. And why wait so long to start third? Hellions can't kill it, so use good simcity to block natural and send out your roaches to push them off. If you make, say, 5 mutas, you spend 600/600 to cement map control, force turrets, thors, or a split of the terran army, and if he has a third before you why not just allin? That's what pretty much every zerg does against fast 3cc/hellion builds, because one banshee actually can't kill an army!~ Neither of those builds gives Zerg a decent chance in the mid game. The mutalisk build is just fucking stupid. 5 mutalisks is a shit ton of gas off of two base and WILL NOT force thors, as if that was really such a terrible thing to have to make in the first place, five mutas will make the Terran CONSIDER a missile turret in each mineral line. It's 700 gas that could have been baneling speed, and 2/2 upgrades. and 12 more banelings or kicking off infestor tech, for 400 - 600 minerals worth of hellions. You know what Zergs were doing up until the queen buff? All inning in more than half their ZvT's. The month leading up to the queen buff was roach baneling all in after roach baneling all in, because the alternative was getting your third after the Terran. Zerg players were using roaches a few months back, they hardly worked because roaches are still slow as shit before lair tech and an upgrade which is a huge gas sink that overall is terrible against any non meching build. Roaches also still couldn't do shit against banshees which will still deny your third if the hellions didn't roast your drone before you got the hatch down. If you wanted to stop the banshee and he went for cloak, tough shit there's nothing you can do because you went for roaches and your lair is delayed and you cannot spread creep, defend your third and keep a perfect seal at your natural. And there's no fucking way to scout what the Terran is doing behind his wall, so you have no clue if he's doing double fact hellions, a marauder hellion all in, cloaked banshees or taking a quick third CC. All these reasons are exactly why Zergs were going nuts with the all ins. Morrow and DRG have both said that the queen buff was too strong/unnecessary (that i've seen), and pretty much no zergs have lost to a hellion runby in forever. Zergs haven't lost to any 4 gates or dt rushes recently either, I wouldn't call that grounds for imbalance. You dont know much about game now and even less before queen buff. TvZ now is bigger joke than any matchup at any point in game. Everyone says it, dont mind terrans only - every zerg I know says that ZvT is a joke and that queen buff was not needed in the first place. You dont know about it because you are spectator who listens to interviews and blizzard which is complete bullshit because A) players are nice in interviews and dont want to put themselfs at risk by saying X is broken and Y is awful B) blizzard wont admit that they made huge mistake, ever. Every terran, protoss or zerg player say that zerg is way too strong and winning vs zerg late game is not winnable if zerg is decent with clicking fungals. Even DRG and Stephano said zerg is too strong in ZvT and all korean pro terrans share same opinion. I noticed people mention 2-3 banshee and raven builds to deny creep, that really sounds good on paper and then you do it in game and zerg has 5-6 queens which kill banshees and raven and you wasted a ton of minerals/gas for nothing instead making other units. There is no build in game that can deny zerg creep or deny zerg third base without losing more than you gain from it. TvZ pre-patch was the most balanced matchup with 49-51% win rate for either T or Z. I see you are saying that zerg was never able to get 3rd base up. Nerchio was playing with roach openers vs terrans probably for over a year now and was always able to spread creep and take fast 3rd - other zergs were just too greedy to spend money on units before 10min. Anothe r thing is that 99% of zergs went mutas and if you would go roaches you would slow down muta tech while now you can easily go from roaches into infestors. You saying that 4-6 helions killed zergs at highest level is hilarious, people in masters on EU know how to make wall and put queen to block natural, if zerg dies to 4 helions he made huge mistake/is bad. Zergs only allined before queen patch? haha..what? Terrans wont pull out some build out of their ass and make queens bad because queens kill any early pressure on their own, doesnt matter if its marine, helion or banshee pressure. If zerg is allowed to drone on 3 base that results in 11-12min hive. Death to queendralisks.
When it comes to zerg people really do cry alot, 4 zerg were gsl last season, and they were the best zergs players losing to code a terran players. Helion opening deny scouting for a damn while and u cannot figure out what your opponent is doing really, so you gamble. You was that early in the game, 150 and a drone for evo, minimum 1 spine so a drone and 100, and lets say 1 more queen so your at 400 min and very less drone than your opponent at 5:30 and then you know nothing for like 3-4 min and then you gamble. Right now in code s Terran still beat zerg players so I don't see a major issue, people need to figure out the way to do it and not count on their silly builds.
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Well, thing is with queen buff, the "new" 6 queen with new range buff is basicly safe vs everything terran can hit at zerg, so they really only need to scout well with new jetlords, it just comes down to defending with the queens and then go on to win the game ^^
Respect for DRG when he said Terran is really bad now, I think he knows what he is talking about.
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4713 Posts
On June 17 2012 20:48 Bellazuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 16:39 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On June 17 2012 14:38 Ziggitz wrote:That's a good point except its total bullshit. Go back 2-3 months before the queen buff and zergs were never losing to hellion runbys. ??? I don't even know how to respond to this level of delusion. I would generally categorize good simcity as having a perfect seal. There's no point to it otherwise (with zerg at least). Hell, spines can move. make full walls and fill a 2-hex hole with a single spine, move it aside when you want to let things out. You're still stuck in your base with no means to expand against a race that is at a huge advantage staying on even bases with you. And you still needed to build at least one extra queen that can't spread creep or roaches because Zerg buildings cannot actually wall off cost effectively with spines because they don't make a perfect seal unless the grid lines up just right with your hatchery. Also, i find it funny that you mention blizzard cup. Wanna know why?
End Date: 2011-12-17
That's six months ago. That's when the reactor hellion opening was just becoming popular. That's when people were still going mutas.
The slayers team's hellion bullds that swept an entire MLG and popularized hellions were back in July 2011 6 months before that tournament. You're full of it. And why wait so long to start third? Hellions can't kill it, so use good simcity to block natural and send out your roaches to push them off. If you make, say, 5 mutas, you spend 600/600 to cement map control, force turrets, thors, or a split of the terran army, and if he has a third before you why not just allin? That's what pretty much every zerg does against fast 3cc/hellion builds, because one banshee actually can't kill an army!~ Neither of those builds gives Zerg a decent chance in the mid game. The mutalisk build is just fucking stupid. 5 mutalisks is a shit ton of gas off of two base and WILL NOT force thors, as if that was really such a terrible thing to have to make in the first place, five mutas will make the Terran CONSIDER a missile turret in each mineral line. It's 700 gas that could have been baneling speed, and 2/2 upgrades. and 12 more banelings or kicking off infestor tech, for 400 - 600 minerals worth of hellions. You know what Zergs were doing up until the queen buff? All inning in more than half their ZvT's. The month leading up to the queen buff was roach baneling all in after roach baneling all in, because the alternative was getting your third after the Terran. Zerg players were using roaches a few months back, they hardly worked because roaches are still slow as shit before lair tech and an upgrade which is a huge gas sink that overall is terrible against any non meching build. Roaches also still couldn't do shit against banshees which will still deny your third if the hellions didn't roast your drone before you got the hatch down. If you wanted to stop the banshee and he went for cloak, tough shit there's nothing you can do because you went for roaches and your lair is delayed and you cannot spread creep, defend your third and keep a perfect seal at your natural. And there's no fucking way to scout what the Terran is doing behind his wall, so you have no clue if he's doing double fact hellions, a marauder hellion all in, cloaked banshees or taking a quick third CC. All these reasons are exactly why Zergs were going nuts with the all ins. Morrow and DRG have both said that the queen buff was too strong/unnecessary (that i've seen), and pretty much no zergs have lost to a hellion runby in forever. Zergs haven't lost to any 4 gates or dt rushes recently either, I wouldn't call that grounds for imbalance. You dont know much about game now and even less before queen buff. TvZ now is bigger joke than any matchup at any point in game. Everyone says it, dont mind terrans only - every zerg I know says that ZvT is a joke and that queen buff was not needed in the first place. You dont know about it because you are spectator who listens to interviews and blizzard which is complete bullshit because A) players are nice in interviews and dont want to put themselfs at risk by saying X is broken and Y is awful B) blizzard wont admit that they made huge mistake, ever. Every terran, protoss or zerg player say that zerg is way too strong and winning vs zerg late game is not winnable if zerg is decent with clicking fungals. Even DRG and Stephano said zerg is too strong in ZvT and all korean pro terrans share same opinion. I noticed people mention 2-3 banshee and raven builds to deny creep, that really sounds good on paper and then you do it in game and zerg has 5-6 queens which kill banshees and raven and you wasted a ton of minerals/gas for nothing instead making other units. There is no build in game that can deny zerg creep or deny zerg third base without losing more than you gain from it. TvZ pre-patch was the most balanced matchup with 49-51% win rate for either T or Z. I see you are saying that zerg was never able to get 3rd base up. Nerchio was playing with roach openers vs terrans probably for over a year now and was always able to spread creep and take fast 3rd - other zergs were just too greedy to spend money on units before 10min. Anothe r thing is that 99% of zergs went mutas and if you would go roaches you would slow down muta tech while now you can easily go from roaches into infestors. You saying that 4-6 helions killed zergs at highest level is hilarious, people in masters on EU know how to make wall and put queen to block natural, if zerg dies to 4 helions he made huge mistake/is bad. Zergs only allined before queen patch? haha..what? Terrans wont pull out some build out of their ass and make queens bad because queens kill any early pressure on their own, doesnt matter if its marine, helion or banshee pressure. If zerg is allowed to drone on 3 base that results in 11-12min hive. Death to queendralisks. When it comes to zerg people really do cry alot, 4 zerg were gsl last season, and they were the best zergs players losing to code a terran players. Helion opening deny scouting for a damn while and u cannot figure out what your opponent is doing really, so you gamble. You was that early in the game, 150 and a drone for evo, minimum 1 spine so a drone and 100, and lets say 1 more queen so your at 400 min and very less drone than your opponent at 5:30 and then you know nothing for like 3-4 min and then you gamble. Right now in code s Terran still beat zerg players so I don't see a major issue, people need to figure out the way to do it and not count on their silly builds.
You show disturbingly little knowledge towards the match up you chose to comment on.
Zergs could still scout with Overlords and catch wind of certain timings and all-ins, with map makers focusing more and more on making Overlord hiding places it wasn't really that hard if the zerg had a brain. Hellions could deny a lot of scouting and map presence, but not all. Perhaps the overlord buff was necessary, I haven't seen many argue about that, but the range buff was way too extreme.
The terran needed to do something to delay the economy of the Zerg somehow, either by forcing roaches, lings, defenses, killing drones or delaying the 3rd. Now terrans can't do it, because the queen range changes everything, they deny pressure so well that there is no need for lings or roaches or defenses, and they spread and protect creep tumors so well that it affects terran mid to late game pushes.
An no, there where 7 zergs in the last GSL season, but they dropped out from their own mistakes, I watched those games. Stat wise TvZ was the most balanced MU, everyone loved it, everyone praised it and immediately after the buff the stats from TLPD indicated the imbalance.
And when the pros come out to talk about the state of the MU, when all of them, even the top zergs have said that the buff was unnecessary and even overkill, you dare come and spit out your ignorance in their face?
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On June 17 2012 20:48 Bellazuk wrote:
When it comes to zerg people really do cry alot, 4 zerg were gsl last season, and they were the best zergs players losing to code a terran players. Helion opening deny scouting for a damn while and u cannot figure out what your opponent is doing really, so you gamble. You was that early in the game, 150 and a drone for evo, minimum 1 spine so a drone and 100, and lets say 1 more queen so your at 400 min and very less drone than your opponent at 5:30 and then you know nothing for like 3-4 min and then you gamble. Right now in code s Terran still beat zerg players so I don't see a major issue, people need to figure out the way to do it and not count on their silly builds.
Where do people get this random stuff?
There were definietly mor than 4 Zergs in GSL code S last season, Games went 7:5 to Terran in Code S, in Code A and Up and downs matchup was Zerg favoured.
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On June 17 2012 20:48 Bellazuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 16:39 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On June 17 2012 14:38 Ziggitz wrote:That's a good point except its total bullshit. Go back 2-3 months before the queen buff and zergs were never losing to hellion runbys. ??? I don't even know how to respond to this level of delusion. I would generally categorize good simcity as having a perfect seal. There's no point to it otherwise (with zerg at least). Hell, spines can move. make full walls and fill a 2-hex hole with a single spine, move it aside when you want to let things out. You're still stuck in your base with no means to expand against a race that is at a huge advantage staying on even bases with you. And you still needed to build at least one extra queen that can't spread creep or roaches because Zerg buildings cannot actually wall off cost effectively with spines because they don't make a perfect seal unless the grid lines up just right with your hatchery. Also, i find it funny that you mention blizzard cup. Wanna know why?
End Date: 2011-12-17
That's six months ago. That's when the reactor hellion opening was just becoming popular. That's when people were still going mutas.
The slayers team's hellion bullds that swept an entire MLG and popularized hellions were back in July 2011 6 months before that tournament. You're full of it. And why wait so long to start third? Hellions can't kill it, so use good simcity to block natural and send out your roaches to push them off. If you make, say, 5 mutas, you spend 600/600 to cement map control, force turrets, thors, or a split of the terran army, and if he has a third before you why not just allin? That's what pretty much every zerg does against fast 3cc/hellion builds, because one banshee actually can't kill an army!~ Neither of those builds gives Zerg a decent chance in the mid game. The mutalisk build is just fucking stupid. 5 mutalisks is a shit ton of gas off of two base and WILL NOT force thors, as if that was really such a terrible thing to have to make in the first place, five mutas will make the Terran CONSIDER a missile turret in each mineral line. It's 700 gas that could have been baneling speed, and 2/2 upgrades. and 12 more banelings or kicking off infestor tech, for 400 - 600 minerals worth of hellions. You know what Zergs were doing up until the queen buff? All inning in more than half their ZvT's. The month leading up to the queen buff was roach baneling all in after roach baneling all in, because the alternative was getting your third after the Terran. Zerg players were using roaches a few months back, they hardly worked because roaches are still slow as shit before lair tech and an upgrade which is a huge gas sink that overall is terrible against any non meching build. Roaches also still couldn't do shit against banshees which will still deny your third if the hellions didn't roast your drone before you got the hatch down. If you wanted to stop the banshee and he went for cloak, tough shit there's nothing you can do because you went for roaches and your lair is delayed and you cannot spread creep, defend your third and keep a perfect seal at your natural. And there's no fucking way to scout what the Terran is doing behind his wall, so you have no clue if he's doing double fact hellions, a marauder hellion all in, cloaked banshees or taking a quick third CC. All these reasons are exactly why Zergs were going nuts with the all ins. Morrow and DRG have both said that the queen buff was too strong/unnecessary (that i've seen), and pretty much no zergs have lost to a hellion runby in forever. Zergs haven't lost to any 4 gates or dt rushes recently either, I wouldn't call that grounds for imbalance. You dont know much about game now and even less before queen buff. TvZ now is bigger joke than any matchup at any point in game. Everyone says it, dont mind terrans only - every zerg I know says that ZvT is a joke and that queen buff was not needed in the first place. You dont know about it because you are spectator who listens to interviews and blizzard which is complete bullshit because A) players are nice in interviews and dont want to put themselfs at risk by saying X is broken and Y is awful B) blizzard wont admit that they made huge mistake, ever. Every terran, protoss or zerg player say that zerg is way too strong and winning vs zerg late game is not winnable if zerg is decent with clicking fungals. Even DRG and Stephano said zerg is too strong in ZvT and all korean pro terrans share same opinion. I noticed people mention 2-3 banshee and raven builds to deny creep, that really sounds good on paper and then you do it in game and zerg has 5-6 queens which kill banshees and raven and you wasted a ton of minerals/gas for nothing instead making other units. There is no build in game that can deny zerg creep or deny zerg third base without losing more than you gain from it. TvZ pre-patch was the most balanced matchup with 49-51% win rate for either T or Z. I see you are saying that zerg was never able to get 3rd base up. Nerchio was playing with roach openers vs terrans probably for over a year now and was always able to spread creep and take fast 3rd - other zergs were just too greedy to spend money on units before 10min. Anothe r thing is that 99% of zergs went mutas and if you would go roaches you would slow down muta tech while now you can easily go from roaches into infestors. You saying that 4-6 helions killed zergs at highest level is hilarious, people in masters on EU know how to make wall and put queen to block natural, if zerg dies to 4 helions he made huge mistake/is bad. Zergs only allined before queen patch? haha..what? Terrans wont pull out some build out of their ass and make queens bad because queens kill any early pressure on their own, doesnt matter if its marine, helion or banshee pressure. If zerg is allowed to drone on 3 base that results in 11-12min hive. Death to queendralisks. When it comes to zerg people really do cry alot, 4 zerg were gsl last season, and they were the best zergs players losing to code a terran players. Helion opening deny scouting for a damn while and u cannot figure out what your opponent is doing really, so you gamble. You was that early in the game, 150 and a drone for evo, minimum 1 spine so a drone and 100, and lets say 1 more queen so your at 400 min and very less drone than your opponent at 5:30 and then you know nothing for like 3-4 min and then you gamble. Right now in code s Terran still beat zerg players so I don't see a major issue, people need to figure out the way to do it and not count on their silly builds.
Code S last season was played before the patch hit. In terms of balance right now, it's completely irrelevant.
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Two big issues from Blizzard on TvZ that I don't understand.
1) Ghosts used to be a great late game answer to TvZ that essentially had no downside pre-snipe nerf. Good vs ultras/broods/infestors----> too good, too versatile ---> gets nerfed.
Queens are now good vs... everything b/c their only weakness was vs ground units. They do well vs early pressure/cheese, hellion creep denial, and banshees. They help create map control thru creep, help vs all ins/timing atks by transfusing spines, and still serve late game by transfusing broods. ---> too good, too versatile ---> no nerf.
Staying on topic, when is it ever bad to make infestors?
2) Blizzard makes patches without accounting for the collateral in the SAME/other MU's.
a) Emp was too good vs P, so they nerfed its radius in half approx. Ever since then, its made double emp'ing infestor clumps ridiculously hard b/c if the zerg gets off 2-3 fungals on your vikings its gg when fighting infestor/brood. The emp radius barely gets 3-5 infestors and u still have to double emp to be sure no fungals go off on those units, then try to snipe/emp all others. Ghosts cost too much for only being able to stop 1 specific unit if you play it like a god, 100% perfectly. Maybe if ghosts were useful, we'd see less infestors that have zero downside. Even if emp radius nerf was intended vs infestors, it should not have happened so harshly b/c the emp encouraged splitting infestors from emp.
b) Ghost snipe was nerfed straight up to deal with brood/ultra, while screwing up every other usage of ghost snipe. Ghost rushing in tvt is gone, late game mass ghost snipe vs Protoss speedlots gone (which would've helped late game TvP), can no longer 1 snipe a baneling/zergling/marine/worker. This was fun b/c it allowed us try to make other viable builds and beat a standard concept with micro. Instead Blizzard only wants A to counter B and pigeonhole all terrans in TvP into MMMVG, BUT WHEN WE"RE TALKING ABOUT ZERG... queens and infestors can kill everything and do w/e they want, its cool bro.
PS Remove skill-less abilities/units like Colossus/fungal/conc shells, give Protoss more micro-able units so they have higher skill-cap and you wouldn't need to nerf Terran every 2 months.
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4713 Posts
One thing that disturbs me about the nerf to Ghosts.
Most people cite the Ghost's versatility as justification for its nerf, and follow up with how its boring that we see so many caster types dominate.
But at the same time infestors don't get any changes, and you see sometimes players with absurd numbers of infestors, the only reason you also don't see masses of HT, but you still see plenty, is because the Protoss needs to invest gas into other units in their army and upgrades.
Why is it ok for Protoss and Zerg to have such versatile casters but the Terran equivalents have to be nerfed to shit and become useless?
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On June 17 2012 21:24 Destructicon wrote:
One thing that disturbs me about the nerf to Ghosts.
Most people cite the Ghost's versatility as justification for its nerf, and follow up with how its boring that we see so many caster types dominate.
But at the same time infestors don't get any changes, and you see sometimes players with absurd numbers of infestors, the only reason you also don't see masses of HT, but you still see plenty, is because the Protoss needs to invest gas into other units in their army and upgrades.
Why is it ok for Protoss and Zerg to have such versatile casters but the Terran equivalents have to be nerfed to shit and become useless?
HTs are pretty much useless in PvP, situationally useful in PvZ (Mutas, feedback on Infestors) and only used on a very frequent basis in PvT.
Compare that to Infestors, which are used in all matches. Then compared it to Ghosts, which are used in TvP almost exclusively (although Nukes are really underused in all MUs).
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On June 17 2012 21:24 Destructicon wrote:
One thing that disturbs me about the nerf to Ghosts.
Most people cite the Ghost's versatility as justification for its nerf, and follow up with how its boring that we see so many caster types dominate.
But at the same time infestors don't get any changes, and you see sometimes players with absurd numbers of infestors, the only reason you also don't see masses of HT, but you still see plenty, is because the Protoss needs to invest gas into other units in their army and upgrades.
Why is it ok for Protoss and Zerg to have such versatile casters but the Terran equivalents have to be nerfed to shit and become useless?
Nerf infestors and then ask yourself how on earth zerg is supposed to hold bio. I agree that it probably would be nice to have zergs make less infestors but then blizz will have to buff something else like roaches, baneling speed or something
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4713 Posts
HT are required in PvZ, due to the need for Archons, feedbacks and Storm on the cheaper armies and styles, it blows my mind sometimes to see Protoss not make any HT given how versatile they can be.
I agree about PvP, but still, compare how useful and versatile HT and Infestors are, and how much you see them in the match-ups to how frequently you now see Ghosts, and how useful ghosts have become and you can definitely see a problem there.
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On June 17 2012 21:35 Roflhaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:24 Destructicon wrote:
One thing that disturbs me about the nerf to Ghosts.
Most people cite the Ghost's versatility as justification for its nerf, and follow up with how its boring that we see so many caster types dominate.
But at the same time infestors don't get any changes, and you see sometimes players with absurd numbers of infestors, the only reason you also don't see masses of HT, but you still see plenty, is because the Protoss needs to invest gas into other units in their army and upgrades.
Why is it ok for Protoss and Zerg to have such versatile casters but the Terran equivalents have to be nerfed to shit and become useless? Nerf infestors and then ask yourself how on earth zerg is supposed to hold bio. I agree that it probably would be nice to have zergs make less infestors but then blizz will have to buff something else like roaches, baneling speed or something
To think ahead a bit, the viper in HOTS with Blinding Cloud being anti bio zerg really will have to many ways to deal with bio. Banes, Infestors and Blinding cloud will absolutley destroy any bioplay from T.
Mech seems to be the future, good thing Blizzard seems to be pushing the factory units.
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4713 Posts
On June 17 2012 21:39 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:35 Roflhaxx wrote:On June 17 2012 21:24 Destructicon wrote:
One thing that disturbs me about the nerf to Ghosts.
Most people cite the Ghost's versatility as justification for its nerf, and follow up with how its boring that we see so many caster types dominate.
But at the same time infestors don't get any changes, and you see sometimes players with absurd numbers of infestors, the only reason you also don't see masses of HT, but you still see plenty, is because the Protoss needs to invest gas into other units in their army and upgrades.
Why is it ok for Protoss and Zerg to have such versatile casters but the Terran equivalents have to be nerfed to shit and become useless? Nerf infestors and then ask yourself how on earth zerg is supposed to hold bio. I agree that it probably would be nice to have zergs make less infestors but then blizz will have to buff something else like roaches, baneling speed or something To think ahead a bit, the viper in HOTS with Blinding Cloud being anti bio zerg really will have to many ways to deal with bio. Banes, Infestors and Blinding cloud will absolutley destroy any bioplay from T.
I wasn't even implying they nerf infestors, though I wouldn't be against it either, but if they insist on making casters so strong and a core part of protoss and zerg armies, then leave the goddamn ghost alone, don't nerf it while leaving the other casters the same.
And yes the combination of Vipers + Infestors absolutely terrifies me, and I doubt Blizzard or anyone else actually realizes how bad it could be for bio play. Cast Fungal on bio then cast cloud above them, now not only can you not move out of it, but you're basically stuck in melee range as well.
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On June 17 2012 21:35 Roflhaxx wrote:
Nerf infestors and then ask yourself how on earth zerg is supposed to hold bio. I agree that it probably would be nice to have zergs make less infestors but then blizz will have to buff something else like roaches, baneling speed or something
With the superior economy Zerg now has from the queen/OL buff, allowing them to drone up/pass early game and reach late game faster, allowing them to remax faster.
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On June 17 2012 21:45 Kenshi235 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:35 Roflhaxx wrote:
Nerf infestors and then ask yourself how on earth zerg is supposed to hold bio. I agree that it probably would be nice to have zergs make less infestors but then blizz will have to buff something else like roaches, baneling speed or something With the superior economy Zerg now has from the queen/OL buff, allowing them to drone up/pass early game and reach late game faster, allowing them to remax faster.
Won't help that you can remax if you can't beat the terran army even with 6 remaxes
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On June 17 2012 22:04 Roflhaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:45 Kenshi235 wrote:On June 17 2012 21:35 Roflhaxx wrote:
Nerf infestors and then ask yourself how on earth zerg is supposed to hold bio. I agree that it probably would be nice to have zergs make less infestors but then blizz will have to buff something else like roaches, baneling speed or something With the superior economy Zerg now has from the queen/OL buff, allowing them to drone up/pass early game and reach late game faster, allowing them to remax faster. Won't help that you can remax if you can't beat the terran army even with 6 remaxes
Don't pretend the whole lategame Zerg army, which is currently the strongest of all, would turn into liquid shit the day infestor will stop countering every single terran unit, from banshee/medivac to marines/marauder, passing through siege tanks with IT.
Even from a conceptual point of view, the idea of a unit countering everything, and being therefore the only pertinent gaz investment, just like was the ghost pre-patch, is a terrible game-design error.
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On June 17 2012 20:48 Bellazuk wrote:
Helion opening deny scouting for a damn while and u cannot figure out what your opponent is doing really, so you gamble. You was that early in the game, 150 and a drone for evo, minimum 1 spine so a drone and 100, and lets say 1 more queen so your at 400 min and very less drone than your opponent at 5:30 and then you know nothing for like 3-4 min and then you gamble. Right now in code s Terran still beat zerg players so I don't see a major issue, people need to figure out the way to do it and not count on their silly builds.
You are a zerg player, I presume. I will analyse your sentences one by one and will show that you shouldn't throw them at people and hoping them to accept them as the universal truth. I, for example, disagree with every statement you made.
`Helion opening deny scouting for a damn while`
1. If you are so intent on scouting, there are damn speedy overlords that can go into terran's base from so many angles that it is not even funny. Surely you can't compare one overlord to the 250 mineral sack that terran has to do to scout. So, in scouting, I see heavy zerg advantage.
2. One roach can chase away 4 hellions. 2 queens also. You get the queens anyway, so you are not behind or anything. Additionally, if you open expand into roach pressure, you deny terran expand for about 3 minutes and get scouting and map presence, while terran is in the dark. I see heavy zerg advantage here.
3. You can chase away the hellions with queens and then make a third. Hellions can't do nothing about it. I see heavy zerg advantage.
4. Terran has to constantly babysit his hellions. A relatively small amount of speedlings can easily dispatch of 4 to 6 hellions if they are unmicroed. So it is on the terran to constantly babysit his hellions, because if he loses them, he loses map control for about 5 minutes. Very heavy zerg advantage there.
`You was that early in the game, 150 and a drone for evo, minimum 1 spine so a drone and 100, and lets say 1 more queen so your at 400 min and very less drone than your opponent at 5:30 and then you know nothing for like 3-4 min and then you gamble.`
1.You should make queens to spread creep. The more you make, the better creep spread generally. So making queens doesn't put you behind.
2. If you don't miss injects, which you shouldn't, you can have 30 worker advantage by minute e 8. I don't want to even comment on how much advantage that gives you.
`Right now in code s Terran still beat zerg players so I don't see a major issue, people need to figure out the way to do it and not count on their silly builds.`
Current gstl win/rate on this season is 12/1 for zerg. After yesterday it became 12/3. I believe that speaks for itself how balanced the match on pro level is.
There are multiple accounts of terran players complaining how imbalanced zerg has become.
> Flash, at his interview, said that zerg is too strong.
> MVP at an interview mentioned that zerg is too strong.
> Strelok, Beastyqt
> DRG, at his MLG interview, mentions that if he is matched against a terran, he feels like if he doesn't make mistakes, there is nothing the terran can do. Sure doesn't seem very balanced.
> Idra mentions that terran is having a 'hard time' against zerg.
> TvZ win rate in gsl for month May is 24%, June probably even worse, making the skew in TvZ win rate the most significant skew in SC2 history.
You are dismissing the opinions of players who are without a doubt far better than you and have far better understanding of the game with this statement 'people need to figure out the way to do it and not count on their silly builds.` Also, you should be doing it in the 'Designated Balance Thread' where people should voice their opinion on balance, observe the metagame and suggest solutions, which you haven't. Please improve your post or move it to other thread.
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On June 17 2012 22:20 sieksdekciw wrote:
Also, you are doing it in the 'Designated Balance Thread' where people should voice their opinion on balance, observe the metagame and suggest solutions, which you haven't. Please improve your post.
This might for all intents and purposes seem like a clone of the Balance Thread but it actually isn't, this is the TLPD Winrates May 2012 thread.
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On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed.
probley the same thing they have been saying since the ghost nerf, if not longer.. Terran needs some love too..
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EPT
