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On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race?
well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion!
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On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords.
actually, fungal "stuns" all units except ultras.
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4713 Posts
On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit.
Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly.
I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32.
On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished.
Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished.
In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it.
And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet.
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On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion!
And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore.
Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead.
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On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit.
Kinda sounds like the infestor countering thors, BCs and Ravens doesnt it?
Terran switching tech compared to zerg switching tech is hilarious, and if you dont realize the discrepancy in your statement you are clearly blind or have never actually played the game before
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Yes i am saying that ghosts should be able to kill all tier 3 units. I say kill, not counter, here is why:
the snipe ability is good against single targets, and broodlords and ultralisk are big, expensive units. on what units do you want to cast snipe when not on them?
"mass ghosts is unkillable" just no. zerglings are very good against ghosts, (hive tech zerglings with adrenal glands!) and fungal can detect and kill them, too.
ghosts are not really beefy, they are slow and of course, psionic, which gives them a bit more armor, but that is it.
about the tech switches: zerg can switch much easier than terran can, because you only need one tech building and can just mass that unit, attack and remax with a complete other army. terrans can not do that because you would need other production facilities. i can not go for mech and than remax with tank marine....
the way how terran upgrades work also restrict that.
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The problem is not the Infestor by himself. the problem is that you can have 10 of them at the 12 minute mark.
With the queen buff the zerg dont need to spend any gas except 100 for lingspeed and 250 for 1 1 upgrades. Imagine if protoss could build only zealots until t 2.5/3 and be save against almost anything.
Or terran could stay alive without using any gas to build ... hmm marines at t3^^
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What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions?
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On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet.
MvP : pew pew pew pew pew pew
Browder : What the hell? That's unacceptable. Bring my nerf hammer.
Thorzain: Thor is here.
Browder: (hyperventilating) Patch that sh*t next week.
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On June 18 2012 00:32 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. MvP : pew pew pew pew pew pew Browder : What the hell? That's unacceptable. Bring my nerf hammer. Thorzain: Thor is here. Browder: (hyperventilating) Patch that sh*t next week.
Browder needs to get that sand out of his vag
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On June 18 2012 00:32 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. MvP : pew pew pew pew pew pew Browder : What the hell? That's unacceptable. Bring my nerf hammer. Thorzain: Thor is here. Browder: (hyperventilating) Patch that sh*t next week.
Zergs: man terrans have been pretty easy lately
Browder: Yeah we should buff queens.
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On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet.
What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time.
On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions?
4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens).
You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded.
On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead.
Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S.
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On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time.
Where you somehow seeing games from an alternate universe?
The only person that was successfully using mass ghosts was Mvp, and he was winning most of his games before it got to that stage, there are much, much less games of mass ghost late game then you imagine.
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Yeah, the Ghost nerf was massively premature and qxc outlined what could have been done better very well in his blog on the subject.
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On June 18 2012 00:51 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. Where you somehow seeing games from an alternate universe? The only person that was successfully using mass ghosts was Mvp, and he was winning most of his games before it got to that stage, there are much, much less games of mass ghost late game then you imagine.
I imagine rather you had tunnel vision, or simply didn't watch many of the games. Ghosts were the GOTO unit lategame.
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On June 17 2012 23:53 ntssauce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 23:48 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max. Shall we get the GSL charts out to show all the tournaments where Terran took up more than 50% of the last 16 with regularity? I think we wont because it's frankly stupid to keep bringing up nonsense screenshots loaded with agenda, ignoring all the important subjective reasons around the situation and try to show something that suits your opinion. The level of distorted whining in this thread is incredible, but it is at least a little entertaining. Did that guy really post a screenshot showing a crazy amount of drones killed and complained at the Zerg player replenishing the Drone count (at the obvious expense of army size). He really should have cropped the supply numbers out to try and help his agenda even more. Win rates have been bouncing around for years and they will continue to do so. New strategies will come out that crush older strategies and players will continually be adapting and struggling against one another. This is the game, if you don't like it I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to sell you an Xbox 360. 1. i didn'T complain i just showed the current state of terran in dreamhack. 2.What do i care about your GSL-Charts if all of them are pre patch and have almost nothing to do with the winrates now? 3.whatever you said in your last part i would like an xbox for free.
Alright lets look at percentages.
27% of Protoss players that entered Dreamhack made it into the round of 32.
29% of Zerg players made it into the round of 32.
20% of Terran players made it.
There may be far less Terran players in the Round of 32, but the percentage difference isn't actually that great.
These numbers could be further twisted into saying what I want them to say if I do the right comparisons. Statistics do not tell the whole story and never really will, they are always loaded with agenda. This is why politicians absolutely love to use statistics to make arguments over things, they can twist them and manipulate them to virtually prove whatever side of the argument they are on is the right one.
The current state of Terran you purported to show was misleading and I guarantee most people that looked at the image just saw something like 13/5/13 and decided Terran are ruined by Blizzard and have no chance to win anything any more. I doubt many looked at the total entrants and compared the percentages (which are a more accurate comparison, but still ultimately prove nothing due to differing skill levels, bracket luck and other reasons).
You should not care about GSL charts any more than you should care about current charts, because none of them are responsible for proving balance one way or another. I brought up the GSL comparison to show you that if I wanted to I can list an array of 'evidence' to contrast your viewpoint and 'prove' myself right. I also added that this would be stupid to try and highlight the fact that a lot of the ridiculous arguments put forth in this thread are agenda loaded nonsense made by biased people who are desperately seeking any slice of 'evidence' they can get to try and prove their opinion is right.
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On June 17 2012 23:53 Assirra wrote:Let's be honest here tough, there are not that many good foreigner terrans compared to the korean counterparts. Look at previous code S where there are 2 zergs in ro16.
2 zergs in ro16 is also irrelevant then.
Just because Zerg getting OP doesn't mean one of the weak zerg like Line can automatically win against one of the greatest Terran in the world like MVP. If that were to happen, then it would be beyond repair... Nestea got in ro16 as he should be, and he demolished people. Only Curious got questionable play, but we all knows that he derpderp way too often (he is king of ro32, always lost in ro32), and he didn't even play against Byun, so use that example to talk about the state of TvZ is irrelevant.
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On June 18 2012 01:19 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 23:53 ntssauce wrote:On June 17 2012 23:48 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max. Shall we get the GSL charts out to show all the tournaments where Terran took up more than 50% of the last 16 with regularity? I think we wont because it's frankly stupid to keep bringing up nonsense screenshots loaded with agenda, ignoring all the important subjective reasons around the situation and try to show something that suits your opinion. The level of distorted whining in this thread is incredible, but it is at least a little entertaining. Did that guy really post a screenshot showing a crazy amount of drones killed and complained at the Zerg player replenishing the Drone count (at the obvious expense of army size). He really should have cropped the supply numbers out to try and help his agenda even more. Win rates have been bouncing around for years and they will continue to do so. New strategies will come out that crush older strategies and players will continually be adapting and struggling against one another. This is the game, if you don't like it I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to sell you an Xbox 360. I think you need to check your math 1. i didn'T complain i just showed the current state of terran in dreamhack. 2.What do i care about your GSL-Charts if all of them are pre patch and have almost nothing to do with the winrates now? 3.whatever you said in your last part i would like an xbox for free. Alright lets look at percentages. 27% of Protoss players that entered Dreamhack made it into the round of 32. 29% of Zerg players made it into the round of 32. 20% of Terran players made it. There may be far less Terran players in the Round of 32, but the percentage difference isn't actually that great. These numbers could be further twisted into saying what I want them to say if I do the right comparisons. Statistics do not tell the whole story and never really will, they are always loaded with agenda. This is why politicians absolutely love to use statistics to make arguments over things, they can twist them and manipulate them to virtually prove whatever side of the argument they are on is the right one. The current state of Terran you purported to show was misleading and I guarantee most people that looked at the image just saw something like 13/5/13 and decided Terran are ruined by Blizzard and have no chance to win anything any more. I doubt many looked at the total entrants and compared the percentages (which are a more accurate comparison, but still ultimately prove nothing due to differing skill levels, bracket luck and other reasons). You should not care about GSL charts any more than you should care about current charts, because none of them are responsible for proving balance one way or another. I brought up the GSL comparison to show you that if I wanted to I can list an array of 'evidence' to contrast your viewpoint and 'prove' myself right. I also added that this would be stupid to try and highlight the fact that a lot of the ridiculous arguments put forth in this thread are agenda loaded nonsense made by biased people who are desperately seeking any slice of 'evidence' they can get to try and prove their opinion is right.
30 terrans in rd 128, 5 in round of 32-16.667%
48 protoss in rd 128, 13 in round of 32- 27.083%
45 zerg in rd 127, 14 in round of 32-31.111%
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On June 18 2012 01:25 madgoat33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:19 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:53 ntssauce wrote:On June 17 2012 23:48 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max. Shall we get the GSL charts out to show all the tournaments where Terran took up more than 50% of the last 16 with regularity? I think we wont because it's frankly stupid to keep bringing up nonsense screenshots loaded with agenda, ignoring all the important subjective reasons around the situation and try to show something that suits your opinion. The level of distorted whining in this thread is incredible, but it is at least a little entertaining. Did that guy really post a screenshot showing a crazy amount of drones killed and complained at the Zerg player replenishing the Drone count (at the obvious expense of army size). He really should have cropped the supply numbers out to try and help his agenda even more. Win rates have been bouncing around for years and they will continue to do so. New strategies will come out that crush older strategies and players will continually be adapting and struggling against one another. This is the game, if you don't like it I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to sell you an Xbox 360. I think you need to check your math 1. i didn'T complain i just showed the current state of terran in dreamhack. 2.What do i care about your GSL-Charts if all of them are pre patch and have almost nothing to do with the winrates now? 3.whatever you said in your last part i would like an xbox for free. Alright lets look at percentages. 27% of Protoss players that entered Dreamhack made it into the round of 32. 29% of Zerg players made it into the round of 32. 20% of Terran players made it. There may be far less Terran players in the Round of 32, but the percentage difference isn't actually that great. These numbers could be further twisted into saying what I want them to say if I do the right comparisons. Statistics do not tell the whole story and never really will, they are always loaded with agenda. This is why politicians absolutely love to use statistics to make arguments over things, they can twist them and manipulate them to virtually prove whatever side of the argument they are on is the right one. The current state of Terran you purported to show was misleading and I guarantee most people that looked at the image just saw something like 13/5/13 and decided Terran are ruined by Blizzard and have no chance to win anything any more. I doubt many looked at the total entrants and compared the percentages (which are a more accurate comparison, but still ultimately prove nothing due to differing skill levels, bracket luck and other reasons). You should not care about GSL charts any more than you should care about current charts, because none of them are responsible for proving balance one way or another. I brought up the GSL comparison to show you that if I wanted to I can list an array of 'evidence' to contrast your viewpoint and 'prove' myself right. I also added that this would be stupid to try and highlight the fact that a lot of the ridiculous arguments put forth in this thread are agenda loaded nonsense made by biased people who are desperately seeking any slice of 'evidence' they can get to try and prove their opinion is right. 30 terrans in rd 128, 5 in round of 32-16.667% 48 protoss in rd 128, 13 in round of 32- 27.083% 45 zerg in rd 127, 14 in round of 32-31.111%
THAT makes sense. And also, DAMN 16?!
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EPT
