|
On June 18 2012 00:58 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:51 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. Where you somehow seeing games from an alternate universe? The only person that was successfully using mass ghosts was Mvp, and he was winning most of his games before it got to that stage, there are much, much less games of mass ghost late game then you imagine. I imagine rather you had tunnel vision, or simply didn't watch many of the games. Ghosts were the GOTO unit lategame.
There are only few cases where mass ghost were ever used. Most of the time it was just replacing marines with ghosts. You still had tanks and made vikings and or marauders depending if the zerg made ultras or broodlords.
|
On June 18 2012 01:25 madgoat33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:19 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:53 ntssauce wrote:On June 17 2012 23:48 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max. Shall we get the GSL charts out to show all the tournaments where Terran took up more than 50% of the last 16 with regularity? I think we wont because it's frankly stupid to keep bringing up nonsense screenshots loaded with agenda, ignoring all the important subjective reasons around the situation and try to show something that suits your opinion. The level of distorted whining in this thread is incredible, but it is at least a little entertaining. Did that guy really post a screenshot showing a crazy amount of drones killed and complained at the Zerg player replenishing the Drone count (at the obvious expense of army size). He really should have cropped the supply numbers out to try and help his agenda even more. Win rates have been bouncing around for years and they will continue to do so. New strategies will come out that crush older strategies and players will continually be adapting and struggling against one another. This is the game, if you don't like it I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to sell you an Xbox 360. I think you need to check your math 1. i didn'T complain i just showed the current state of terran in dreamhack. 2.What do i care about your GSL-Charts if all of them are pre patch and have almost nothing to do with the winrates now? 3.whatever you said in your last part i would like an xbox for free. Alright lets look at percentages. 27% of Protoss players that entered Dreamhack made it into the round of 32. 29% of Zerg players made it into the round of 32. 20% of Terran players made it. There may be far less Terran players in the Round of 32, but the percentage difference isn't actually that great. These numbers could be further twisted into saying what I want them to say if I do the right comparisons. Statistics do not tell the whole story and never really will, they are always loaded with agenda. This is why politicians absolutely love to use statistics to make arguments over things, they can twist them and manipulate them to virtually prove whatever side of the argument they are on is the right one. The current state of Terran you purported to show was misleading and I guarantee most people that looked at the image just saw something like 13/5/13 and decided Terran are ruined by Blizzard and have no chance to win anything any more. I doubt many looked at the total entrants and compared the percentages (which are a more accurate comparison, but still ultimately prove nothing due to differing skill levels, bracket luck and other reasons). You should not care about GSL charts any more than you should care about current charts, because none of them are responsible for proving balance one way or another. I brought up the GSL comparison to show you that if I wanted to I can list an array of 'evidence' to contrast your viewpoint and 'prove' myself right. I also added that this would be stupid to try and highlight the fact that a lot of the ridiculous arguments put forth in this thread are agenda loaded nonsense made by biased people who are desperately seeking any slice of 'evidence' they can get to try and prove their opinion is right. 30 terrans in rd 128, 5 in round of 32-16.667% 48 protoss in rd 128, 13 in round of 32- 27.083% 45 zerg in rd 127, 14 in round of 32-31.111%
Notice how all 5 terrans are relatively big-name. Brat-OK is the worst of them, and he's pretty decent. Thorzain, Puma, Keen, Taeja, all proven top-class level terrans.
And yet there are less than top-class level zergs still there.. Mini, Naugrim, Ziktomini? 9%, according to the bloke before you, is a fairly relevant margin too, it's not a small number. 145% more Zergs than Terran (29 to 20?) is something.
|
On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S.
Obliterated?
1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch.
Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost.
So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong
It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all).
As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc.
|
On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc.
Now compare the costs of a ghost compared to an ultra
ghost: 200min 100gas 2supply
ultra: 300min 200gas 6supply
If a full energy ghost could kill an ultra it wouldn't be just OP, it would be gamebreaking...
|
On June 18 2012 02:00 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc. Now compare the costs of a ghost compared to an ultra ghost: 200min 100gas 2supply ultra: 300min 200gas 6supply If a full energy ghost could kill an ultra it wouldn't be just OP, it would be gamebreaking...
Voidray, which costs 250/150, can kill ultra, gamebreaking? nerf coming soon?
|
On June 18 2012 02:00 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc. Now compare the costs of a ghost compared to an ultra ghost: 200min 100gas 2supply ultra: 300min 200gas 6supply If a full energy ghost could kill an ultra it wouldn't be just OP, it would be gamebreaking...
So 2 Ghosts cost more than an Ultra, and I guarantee you wouldn't have a whole bunch of full energy Ghosts ready to deal with an Ultra/Ling tech switch.
|
On June 18 2012 02:03 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:00 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc. Now compare the costs of a ghost compared to an ultra ghost: 200min 100gas 2supply ultra: 300min 200gas 6supply If a full energy ghost could kill an ultra it wouldn't be just OP, it would be gamebreaking... Voidray, which costs 250/150, can kill ultra, gamebreaking? nerf coming soon?
You are not even trying if you compare it to that.
|
On June 18 2012 02:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:00 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc. Now compare the costs of a ghost compared to an ultra ghost: 200min 100gas 2supply ultra: 300min 200gas 6supply If a full energy ghost could kill an ultra it wouldn't be just OP, it would be gamebreaking... So 2 Ghosts cost more than an Ultra, and I guarantee you wouldn't have a whole bunch of full energy Ghosts ready to deal with an Ultra/Ling tech switch.
Back then you had ghost for everything so unless the zerg just remaxed you had those ghosts ready, that was the whole point .
Ghosts countered everything the zerg could throw at terran without the need of a techswitch.
|
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D
|
|
|
On June 18 2012 02:11 Hds wrote:
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D
Don't get me wrong here, i agree terran needs some form of help. I was just saying that ghost countering everything was quite silly. Blizzard just need to learn if they nerf stuff to not nerf it into oblivion and same for buffs. the ghost nerf was to to much and the same for queen buff. They were required but not that hard.
|
Of course! But I just wanted to point out the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, Zergs have really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D
EDIT: Indeed, it was very hard for a Zerg to break a siegeline + Ghosts etc, but now, it's just a memory
|
On June 18 2012 02:14 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:11 Hds wrote:
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D Don't get me wrong here, i agree terran needs some form of help. I was just saying that ghost countering everything was quite silly. Blizzard just need to learn if they nerf stuff to not nerf it into oblivion and same for buffs. the ghost nerf was to to much and the same for queen buff. They were required but not that hard.
It's better to have a silly way to deal with something rather than no way as Blizzard has left terran now.
And ghosts have never been any more overpowered than infestors are now, also there were less than 10 pro played and broadcasted streams where mass ghosts were used, and even then the game was won before the ghosts arrived, or zergs even won more than half of those shown.
|
...(Rah, why can't we erased double post from ourselves etc :D)
|
On June 18 2012 01:41 Falconblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:25 madgoat33 wrote:On June 18 2012 01:19 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:53 ntssauce wrote:On June 17 2012 23:48 avc wrote:On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max. Shall we get the GSL charts out to show all the tournaments where Terran took up more than 50% of the last 16 with regularity? I think we wont because it's frankly stupid to keep bringing up nonsense screenshots loaded with agenda, ignoring all the important subjective reasons around the situation and try to show something that suits your opinion. The level of distorted whining in this thread is incredible, but it is at least a little entertaining. Did that guy really post a screenshot showing a crazy amount of drones killed and complained at the Zerg player replenishing the Drone count (at the obvious expense of army size). He really should have cropped the supply numbers out to try and help his agenda even more. Win rates have been bouncing around for years and they will continue to do so. New strategies will come out that crush older strategies and players will continually be adapting and struggling against one another. This is the game, if you don't like it I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to sell you an Xbox 360. I think you need to check your math 1. i didn'T complain i just showed the current state of terran in dreamhack. 2.What do i care about your GSL-Charts if all of them are pre patch and have almost nothing to do with the winrates now? 3.whatever you said in your last part i would like an xbox for free. Alright lets look at percentages. 27% of Protoss players that entered Dreamhack made it into the round of 32. 29% of Zerg players made it into the round of 32. 20% of Terran players made it. There may be far less Terran players in the Round of 32, but the percentage difference isn't actually that great. These numbers could be further twisted into saying what I want them to say if I do the right comparisons. Statistics do not tell the whole story and never really will, they are always loaded with agenda. This is why politicians absolutely love to use statistics to make arguments over things, they can twist them and manipulate them to virtually prove whatever side of the argument they are on is the right one. The current state of Terran you purported to show was misleading and I guarantee most people that looked at the image just saw something like 13/5/13 and decided Terran are ruined by Blizzard and have no chance to win anything any more. I doubt many looked at the total entrants and compared the percentages (which are a more accurate comparison, but still ultimately prove nothing due to differing skill levels, bracket luck and other reasons). You should not care about GSL charts any more than you should care about current charts, because none of them are responsible for proving balance one way or another. I brought up the GSL comparison to show you that if I wanted to I can list an array of 'evidence' to contrast your viewpoint and 'prove' myself right. I also added that this would be stupid to try and highlight the fact that a lot of the ridiculous arguments put forth in this thread are agenda loaded nonsense made by biased people who are desperately seeking any slice of 'evidence' they can get to try and prove their opinion is right. 30 terrans in rd 128, 5 in round of 32-16.667% 48 protoss in rd 128, 13 in round of 32- 27.083% 45 zerg in rd 127, 14 in round of 32-31.111% Notice how all 5 terrans are relatively big-name. Brat-OK is the worst of them, and he's pretty decent. Thorzain, Puma, Keen, Taeja, all proven top-class level terrans. And yet there are less than top-class level zergs still there.. Mini, Naugrim, Ziktomini? 9%, according to the bloke before you, is a fairly relevant margin too, it's not a small number. 145% more Zergs than Terran (29 to 20?) is something.
Im not saying your in general wrong but looking at the names remaining is a terribly stupid way of analyzing things. What is relevant is looking at what terrans have gotten eliminated and against what skill lvl opponent. If the rest of the terrans are terrible nonames the fact that they got eliminated obviously is no suprise.
|
On June 18 2012 02:14 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:11 Hds wrote:
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D Don't get me wrong here, i agree terran needs some form of help. I was just saying that ghost countering everything was quite silly. Blizzard just need to learn if they nerf stuff to not nerf it into oblivion and same for buffs. the ghost nerf was to to much and the same for queen buff. They were required but not that hard.
They whole point of what I was saying was that ghosts didn't absolutely singlehandedly annihilate anything, but rather allowed terran to buy time to get out an appropriate counter to the T3 zerg at hand - marauders or vikings. On the other hand, infestors literally counter everything. Mass ghost was too versatile and "silly" (while only being very useful for taking on ultras and broodlords in an auxiliary role) and at the same time mass infestor is just fine (while only being useful for every possible situation)? Now that taken as a whole is just silly.
|
On June 18 2012 02:17 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:14 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 02:11 Hds wrote:
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D Don't get me wrong here, i agree terran needs some form of help. I was just saying that ghost countering everything was quite silly. Blizzard just need to learn if they nerf stuff to not nerf it into oblivion and same for buffs. the ghost nerf was to to much and the same for queen buff. They were required but not that hard. It's better to have a silly way to deal with something rather than no way as Blizzard has left terran now. And ghosts have never been any more overpowered than infestors are now, also there were less than 10 pro played and broadcasted streams where mass ghosts were used, and even then the game was won before the ghosts arrived, or zergs even won more than half of those shown.
Im quite sure that Ive seen more then 10 games where ghosts where used heavily lategame TvZ and Im definatly certain that Ive seen more then 4 terran wins in those cases.. Pretty silly of you throwing out random numbers like you do claiming them as facts.
|
On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc.
Yes, they obliterated, because it had to deal with how easy it was to target, focus fire, and ultra pathing. Ultras were most definitely obliterated. You had all those ghosts, they annihilated half the ultras, and none of the ghosts died. That was the point. If it was pure ghost vs pure ultra, maybe not, but Ghosts stayed in the back of the army, never got touched, while ultras hit marines, and the Ghosts simply wailed on them.
|
On June 18 2012 02:27 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc. Yes, they obliterated, because it had to deal with how easy it was to target, focus fire, and ultra pathing. Ultras were most definitely obliterated.
But then you are left with a bunch of energy-less ghosts and the follow up wave of whatever will just wreck face
|
On June 18 2012 02:25 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:17 Dalavita wrote:On June 18 2012 02:14 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 02:11 Hds wrote:
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D Don't get me wrong here, i agree terran needs some form of help. I was just saying that ghost countering everything was quite silly. Blizzard just need to learn if they nerf stuff to not nerf it into oblivion and same for buffs. the ghost nerf was to to much and the same for queen buff. They were required but not that hard. It's better to have a silly way to deal with something rather than no way as Blizzard has left terran now. And ghosts have never been any more overpowered than infestors are now, also there were less than 10 pro played and broadcasted streams where mass ghosts were used, and even then the game was won before the ghosts arrived, or zergs even won more than half of those shown. Im quite sure that Ive seen more then 10 games where ghosts where used heavily lategame TvZ and Im definatly certain that Ive seen more then 4 terran wins in those cases.. Pretty silly of you throwing out random numbers like you do claiming them as facts.
Just do it
Do not quote MVP, Happy, ThorZaIN, and MMA and their games
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
