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On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss.
Do you even watch SC2? TvP has been P favored for a long time now. TvZ was considered to be mostly balanced. "T has been OP all this time" really? Rofl.
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On June 18 2012 03:11 Rockmonsterdude wrote:
Can't people here just stop cry and start playing instead!
We are playing all the time, but its kinda frustrating playing 45% of games TvZ and having 35% winrate in that matchup in highmaster/gm.
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On June 18 2012 03:10 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:03 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about. If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance. Most would agree it was the most balanced matchup, I'm sure it wasn't %100 balanced. But the queen change CLEARLY is not the right change to try and balance the game, and if you can't see that then lol. I was talking about TvZ lategame armies, though TvP lategame is almost as bad for Terran. If not buff ghosts then it has to be something to address lategame TvZ. Perhaps Raven HSM range or something.
Im not saying it wasnt balanced, im saying if you actually value the statistics thrown at us in the OP. the Korean winrates that is, then you cant call it the most balanced MU without calling the game as a whole a fuckload of imbalance. Those winrates give terran a close to 60-40 several times and that is basically the same ratio that zerg has had for one month now. Give it some time.
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On June 18 2012 03:17 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:10 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:03 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about. If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance. Most would agree it was the most balanced matchup, I'm sure it wasn't %100 balanced. But the queen change CLEARLY is not the right change to try and balance the game, and if you can't see that then lol. I was talking about TvZ lategame armies, though TvP lategame is almost as bad for Terran. If not buff ghosts then it has to be something to address lategame TvZ. Perhaps Raven HSM range or something. Im not saying it wasnt balanced, im saying if you actually value the statistics thrown at us in the OP. the Korean winrates that is, then you cant call it the most balanced MU without calling the game as a whole a fuckload of imbalance. Those winrates give terran a close to 60-40 several times and that is basically the same ratio that zerg has had for one month now. Give it some time.
So your excuse is basically.......
ITS OUR TURN MORE IMBALANCE ROAR.
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On June 18 2012 03:15 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss. Do you even watch SC2? TvP has been P favored for a long time now. TvZ was considered to be mostly balanced. "T has been OP all this time" really? Rofl.
statistically it has yes, if we care about those things. And TvP still has Terran favoured winratios almost every month.
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Maybe terrans are doing something wrong?! I say give it more time...
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On June 18 2012 03:18 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:17 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 03:10 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:03 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about. If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance. Most would agree it was the most balanced matchup, I'm sure it wasn't %100 balanced. But the queen change CLEARLY is not the right change to try and balance the game, and if you can't see that then lol. I was talking about TvZ lategame armies, though TvP lategame is almost as bad for Terran. If not buff ghosts then it has to be something to address lategame TvZ. Perhaps Raven HSM range or something. Im not saying it wasnt balanced, im saying if you actually value the statistics thrown at us in the OP. the Korean winrates that is, then you cant call it the most balanced MU without calling the game as a whole a fuckload of imbalance. Those winrates give terran a close to 60-40 several times and that is basically the same ratio that zerg has had for one month now. Give it some time. So your excuse is basically....... ITS OUR TURN MORE IMBALANCE ROAR.
ehrm no, thats not even close to what I am saying. I want the game balanced, but I want blizzard to touch it as little as possible. And I was mainly reacting to the sillyness of throwing a 60-40 winratio to the table claiming imbalance while calling the previous 60-40 winratio balanced.
someone needs to calm down.
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On June 18 2012 03:17 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:10 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:03 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about. If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance. Most would agree it was the most balanced matchup, I'm sure it wasn't %100 balanced. But the queen change CLEARLY is not the right change to try and balance the game, and if you can't see that then lol. I was talking about TvZ lategame armies, though TvP lategame is almost as bad for Terran. If not buff ghosts then it has to be something to address lategame TvZ. Perhaps Raven HSM range or something. Im not saying it wasnt balanced, im saying if you actually value the statistics thrown at us in the OP. the Korean winrates that is, then you cant call it the most balanced MU without calling the game as a whole a fuckload of imbalance. Those winrates give terran a close to 60-40 several times and that is basically the same ratio that zerg has had for one month now. Give it some time.
I understand what your saying, but statistics aside, the Queen buff is abolustely terrible for the matchup. It severly limits early game pressure from Terran. Helions, Banshees, Reapers... queens counter. Zergs right now are going at least 4 Queens early game and the really smart ones are going at least 6 queens which makes them pretty untouchable from early game harass from Terran. If Terran just macros and lets Zerg sit there uncontended, macro vs macro Zerg comes out way ahead. They can max out faster than T, take the map with creep spread which makes it very very hard for T to overcome. Time won't do anything, except maybe help Terran find better ways to just all-in.
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On June 18 2012 03:19 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:15 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss. Do you even watch SC2? TvP has been P favored for a long time now. TvZ was considered to be mostly balanced. "T has been OP all this time" really? Rofl. statistically it has yes, if we care about those things. And TvP still has Terran favoured winratios almost every month.
How far are you looking back? Keep your head in the present right now, don't tell me T is favored in TvP lol.
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On June 18 2012 03:20 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:18 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 03:17 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 03:10 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:03 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about. If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance. Most would agree it was the most balanced matchup, I'm sure it wasn't %100 balanced. But the queen change CLEARLY is not the right change to try and balance the game, and if you can't see that then lol. I was talking about TvZ lategame armies, though TvP lategame is almost as bad for Terran. If not buff ghosts then it has to be something to address lategame TvZ. Perhaps Raven HSM range or something. Im not saying it wasnt balanced, im saying if you actually value the statistics thrown at us in the OP. the Korean winrates that is, then you cant call it the most balanced MU without calling the game as a whole a fuckload of imbalance. Those winrates give terran a close to 60-40 several times and that is basically the same ratio that zerg has had for one month now. Give it some time. So your excuse is basically....... ITS OUR TURN MORE IMBALANCE ROAR. ehrm no, thats not even close to what I am saying. I want the game balanced, but I want blizzard to touch it as little as possible. And I was mainly reacting to the sillyness of throwing a 60-40 winratio to the table claiming imbalance while calling the previous 60-40 winratio balanced. someone needs to calm down.
No one here is saying 60-40 ratios are balanced if they are in favor of Terran. We are talking about what the right changes are to help the MU. The Queen buff is disgusting.
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On June 18 2012 03:21 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:17 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 03:10 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:03 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about. If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance. Most would agree it was the most balanced matchup, I'm sure it wasn't %100 balanced. But the queen change CLEARLY is not the right change to try and balance the game, and if you can't see that then lol. I was talking about TvZ lategame armies, though TvP lategame is almost as bad for Terran. If not buff ghosts then it has to be something to address lategame TvZ. Perhaps Raven HSM range or something. Im not saying it wasnt balanced, im saying if you actually value the statistics thrown at us in the OP. the Korean winrates that is, then you cant call it the most balanced MU without calling the game as a whole a fuckload of imbalance. Those winrates give terran a close to 60-40 several times and that is basically the same ratio that zerg has had for one month now. Give it some time. I understand what your saying, but statistics aside, the Queen buff is abolustely terrible for the matchup. It severly limits early game pressure from Terran. Helions, Banshees, Reapers... queens counter. Zergs right now are going at least 4 Queens early game and the really smart ones are going at least 6 queens which makes them pretty untouchable from early game harass from Terran. If Terran just macros and lets Zerg sit there uncontended, macro vs macro Zerg comes out way ahead. They can max out faster than T, take the map with creep spread which makes it very very hard for T to overcome. Time won't do anything, except maybe help Terran find better ways to just all-in.
I agree to some degree definatly. Im mainly a zerg but Ive been playing Terran almost as much (no toss though, I despise that race) and I have huger problems in TvZ aswell. Actually always have but thats another thing. I just find this whole discussion to be to soon. Or somewhat premature atleast. Certinly less then a month isnt nearly enough to be talking in absolutes about a balance change.
off to work, already late.. fuck
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On June 18 2012 03:19 Rockmonsterdude wrote:
Maybe terrans are doing something wrong?! I say give it more time...
what is supposed to happen after "more time"? Nobody has an answer when asked, how to change terran openings. We see some super greedy attemps by players like marineking, getting crushed by any kind of pressure by the zerg, that's all the innovation we see right now, greedyness that's so easy to punish. But yeah, give it more time, that's gonna help!
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On June 18 2012 03:19 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:15 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss. Do you even watch SC2? TvP has been P favored for a long time now. TvZ was considered to be mostly balanced. "T has been OP all this time" really? Rofl. statistically it has yes, if we care about those things. And TvP still has Terran favoured winratios almost every month.
Statistically, everybody has one testicle and one breast.
Don't look only at statistics when it comes to discussing balance, it is merely part of what should inform the overall picture. Winrate alone does not indicate balance. Watching the games, noting how the games are being played and then taking a look at winrates can give you a good idea. For instance, we see all sorts of 1 and 2 base all in plays vs protoss netting terrans wins, but most times when it goes past 15 minutes it isn't even close. The winrate looks balanced, but in reality it is a rotten matchup (not that T should always win, but the matchup sucks to watch and sucks to play from the release in 2010). Similarly, we see terrans trying everything and hardly doing anything. The winrate corroborates that evidence, it is a rotten matchup.
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On June 18 2012 03:26 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:19 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 03:15 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss. Do you even watch SC2? TvP has been P favored for a long time now. TvZ was considered to be mostly balanced. "T has been OP all this time" really? Rofl. statistically it has yes, if we care about those things. And TvP still has Terran favoured winratios almost every month. Statistically, everybody has one testicle and one breast. Don't look only at statistics when it comes to discussing balance, it is merely part of what should inform the overall picture. Winrate alone does not indicate balance. Watching the games, noting how the games are being played and then taking a look at winrates can give you a good idea. For instance, we see all sorts of 1 and 2 base all in plays vs protoss netting terrans wins, but most times when it goes past 15 minutes it isn't even close. The winrate looks balanced, but in reality it is a rotten matchup (not that T should always win, but the matchup sucks to watch and sucks to play from the release in 2010). Similarly, we see terrans trying everything and hardly doing anything. The winrate corroborates that evidence, it is a rotten matchup.
It is a rotten matchup, but don't try to claim it's Protoss favored overall, because it really isn't. PvZ is currently a really stupid matchup too, but it's not really imbalanced either, just really crap to play.
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On June 18 2012 03:50 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:26 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 03:19 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 03:15 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss. Do you even watch SC2? TvP has been P favored for a long time now. TvZ was considered to be mostly balanced. "T has been OP all this time" really? Rofl. statistically it has yes, if we care about those things. And TvP still has Terran favoured winratios almost every month. Statistically, everybody has one testicle and one breast. Don't look only at statistics when it comes to discussing balance, it is merely part of what should inform the overall picture. Winrate alone does not indicate balance. Watching the games, noting how the games are being played and then taking a look at winrates can give you a good idea. For instance, we see all sorts of 1 and 2 base all in plays vs protoss netting terrans wins, but most times when it goes past 15 minutes it isn't even close. The winrate looks balanced, but in reality it is a rotten matchup (not that T should always win, but the matchup sucks to watch and sucks to play from the release in 2010). Similarly, we see terrans trying everything and hardly doing anything. The winrate corroborates that evidence, it is a rotten matchup. It is a rotten matchup, but don't try to claim it's Protoss favored overall, because it really isn't. PvZ is currently a really stupid matchup too, but it's not really imbalanced either, just really crap to play.
It is funny how blizzard managed to fuck up every cross match-up. At least mirror match-ups are still somewhat good, especially TvT, others are kind a meh, compared to that.
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On a slightly hilarious note:
XvZ is now the most universally hated matchup. Zergs hate it, Toss hate it and Terran hate is well :D.
If it's not for balance then maybe for fun's sake we'll see a patch. I have a feeling that might actually be more likely to get DB to reconsider his decisions...
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On June 18 2012 03:19 Rockmonsterdude wrote:
Maybe terrans are doing something wrong?! I say give it more time...
No. I would agree if this were like a year ago when not every strategy had been nerfed yet but we're at the point to where there is nothing left to try. Basically every time korean gosus figured out a new strategy it got nerfed and now there aren't any left to move onto. Nerf ex bw pros.
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On June 18 2012 04:36 Poehalcho wrote:
On a slightly hilarious note:
XvZ is now the most universally hated matchup. Zergs hate it, Toss hate it and Terran hate is well :D.
If it's not for balance then maybe for fun's sake we'll see a patch. I have a feeling that might actually be more likely to get DB to reconsider his decisions...
On a slightly more hilarious note:
There was a thread: Which is your favorite matchup.
Everybody picked
XvT. Hilarious.
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On June 18 2012 04:45 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 04:36 Poehalcho wrote:
On a slightly hilarious note:
XvZ is now the most universally hated matchup. Zergs hate it, Toss hate it and Terran hate is well :D.
If it's not for balance then maybe for fun's sake we'll see a patch. I have a feeling that might actually be more likely to get DB to reconsider his decisions... On a slightly more hilarious note: There was a thread: Which is your favorite matchup. Everybody picked XvT. Hilarious.
The tears I'm crying are from the left eye :[
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EPT
