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I think people need to stop complaining about T being nerfed so much. To be fair, they deserved it. You can't say they were overnerfed if you thought TvZ was balanced before this patch. This patch may be the one that finally tips the scale to be Z favored for once, and it should be watched carefully, but there is no reason to create another patch so quickly without really seeing the full impact. I think that we should wait for the June results, and if they are really tipped in favor of Z since the patch, then something should be done.
However, just because a lot of T are having bad results right now doesn't necessarily mean the matchup is imbalanced. There have been huge streaks of Z and P getting demolished by T, and I don't think a T ever said, "Yeah, we are too strong right now, please nerf us." At least this time a lot of the Z players admit that the buff was probably too much. To be honest, if you are not a pro player, then your opinion on balance doesn't matter. You are simply not good enough for balance to matter, you need to just be better than your opponents. If it turns out that the trouble you have is universal for your race, then that data will surface, and then it becomes very obvious that there is a problem.
I personally think the buff was too much, but still better than what they had in the PTR. If they want to nerf all the different openers, they should allow more options to be made available. Buffing the Queen makes early game T pressure much more difficult, since they had already nerfed everything else, the bunker build time, barracks build time, reapers, etc. I think some of those changes should be reexamined in light of the Queen Buff. I also think jumping straight from 3-5 is a poor choice. They should have been a bit more cautious and at least tried going from 3-4 range, which I think would have already made a huge difference in the matchup.
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On June 16 2012 11:58 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 16 2012 09:49 CyDe wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. Obviously you don't play a race that has been getting nerfed every patch since release. It gets a little old. Keep in mind that the reason why Terran kept getting nerfed is because they used to be much stronger than both Protoss and Zerg (and the historical winrates and tournament wins support this). Then we hit around even balance... but then Zerg got buffed all of a sudden and now everything's potentially screwed. But before that, the Terran nerfs had been completely justified (except possibly the recent ghost snipe nerf because of late game TvZ). But the vast majority of Terran nerfs (and nearly all patch changes- buffs and nerfs to all races across the board) in retrospect seem rather sensible. i dont think they were much stronger to begin with considering the recent zerg strats(double evo, getting mass infestors) werent used until recently. other than the fungal changes there were hardly anything changed to those, zergs just werent doing it. i found the ghost snipe nerf excessive tho. instead of just taking 10-15 dmg off it and see how it went blizz just went fuck it and cut the damage in half totally.
Agreed. It wasn't so much a matter of one racing being stronger. It was more a matter of races learning to adapt and fully use and understand their race. What happened with Terran has taken much longer for Protoss and Zerg, but now they are pretty well developed. The problem of course was that Terran had been developed very well, but then had endured a series of nerfs. So, it's not a matter of adapting or understanding the Terran race that will help Terran at this point. It's actually going to take buffs to restore Terran to what it should have been all along. No amount of "trying harder" is going to solve this one.
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On June 18 2012 07:02 SnipedSoul wrote:
TvZ is fucked now. All the early pressure builds are terrible against queens. You can't even force zerg to spend larva on anything but drones unless you all in. The only way to have a chance is to play super greedy and hope the zerg doesn't decide to do a roach bane all in.
I think this is the main problem.
Pressure don't work atm. Zerg know they can spend all their larvaes on drones. Evertime terran can do before 10min is easy to handle with some queens, a spine and an evo chamber ready.
It was already like that beofre, but before you could force the zerg to stay on 2 bases. Now it's easy to take the third.
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Gigabyte top 4 are zergs...
3 terrans left in top 16 of Dreamhack.
how long will it take until they make something happen?
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On June 18 2012 09:12 RyF wrote:
Gigabyte top 4 are zergs...
3 terrans left in top 16 of Dreamhack.
how long will it take until they make something happen?
Its not like taeja lost to imbalance, he went 14cc and sase abused it
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On June 18 2012 09:20 SKDN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:12 RyF wrote:
Gigabyte top 4 are zergs...
3 terrans left in top 16 of Dreamhack.
how long will it take until they make something happen? Its not like taeja lost to imbalance, he went 14cc and sase abused it
Teaja is one of 3 Terran, so that is relevant because...?
lol at Morrow, he shouldn't try to play TvZ anymore, seems like this is a good time to learn ZvZ
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On June 18 2012 09:27 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:20 SKDN wrote:On June 18 2012 09:12 RyF wrote:
Gigabyte top 4 are zergs...
3 terrans left in top 16 of Dreamhack.
how long will it take until they make something happen? Its not like taeja lost to imbalance, he went 14cc and sase abused it Teaja is one of 3 Terran, so that is relevant because...? lol at Morrow, he shouldn't try to play TvZ anymore, seems like this is a good time to learn ZvZ
oh sry i thought he got knocked out by sase my apologies
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I actually like how Zerg is killing everything at the moment. It finally shows the world how op fungal really is and how powerful their late game has been. Maybe this season we'll even have GOM ZvZ.
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On June 18 2012 09:49 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
I actually like how Zerg is killing everything at the moment. It finally shows the world how op fungal really is and how powerful their late game has been. Maybe this season we'll even have GOM ZvZ.
That's just what we need. A season of GSL where every night ends in 1 hour.
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On June 18 2012 09:27 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:20 SKDN wrote:On June 18 2012 09:12 RyF wrote:
Gigabyte top 4 are zergs...
3 terrans left in top 16 of Dreamhack.
how long will it take until they make something happen? Its not like taeja lost to imbalance, he went 14cc and sase abused it Teaja is one of 3 Terran, so that is relevant because...? lol at Morrow, he shouldn't try to play TvZ anymore, seems like this is a good time to learn ZvZ
Yeah I'm sure his chances at ZvZ are much higher than his chances with TvZ. Maybe at one point in time, yes, but now the way TvZ is for Terran, no way.
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On June 18 2012 11:05 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:49 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
I actually like how Zerg is killing everything at the moment. It finally shows the world how op fungal really is and how powerful their late game has been. Maybe this season we'll even have GOM ZvZ. That's just what we need. A season of GSL where every night ends in 1 hour.
Nah man ZvZ takes like half an hour now because all you see is infestor+roach vs infestor+roach with one player maybe making hydras, and all the big battles are stationary and covered in non-baneling green goo ^^
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On June 18 2012 09:09 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 11:58 Digamma wrote:On June 16 2012 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 16 2012 09:49 CyDe wrote:On June 16 2012 09:29 Sated wrote:On June 15 2012 06:02 denlillemand wrote:On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed. what terrans? .-- ive played 31 games today,, only 2 of them was TvT, and they didn't put up a fight, there wont be any changes, because there is no terrans left to QQ about the balance, they gave up a long time ago. When it was bad for Protoss, people stuck with Protoss. When it was bad for Zerg, people stuck with Zerg. It's bad for Terran for a month and they all quit. Lol. Obviously you don't play a race that has been getting nerfed every patch since release. It gets a little old. Keep in mind that the reason why Terran kept getting nerfed is because they used to be much stronger than both Protoss and Zerg (and the historical winrates and tournament wins support this). Then we hit around even balance... but then Zerg got buffed all of a sudden and now everything's potentially screwed. But before that, the Terran nerfs had been completely justified (except possibly the recent ghost snipe nerf because of late game TvZ). But the vast majority of Terran nerfs (and nearly all patch changes- buffs and nerfs to all races across the board) in retrospect seem rather sensible. i dont think they were much stronger to begin with considering the recent zerg strats(double evo, getting mass infestors) werent used until recently. other than the fungal changes there were hardly anything changed to those, zergs just werent doing it. i found the ghost snipe nerf excessive tho. instead of just taking 10-15 dmg off it and see how it went blizz just went fuck it and cut the damage in half totally. Agreed. It wasn't so much a matter of one racing being stronger. It was more a matter of races learning to adapt and fully use and understand their race. What happened with Terran has taken much longer for Protoss and Zerg, but now they are pretty well developed. The problem of course was that Terran had been developed very well, but then had endured a series of nerfs. So, it's not a matter of adapting or understanding the Terran race that will help Terran at this point. It's actually going to take buffs to restore Terran to what it should have been all along. No amount of "trying harder" is going to solve this one.
Terran was buffed quite a bit in the beta. A lot what people used to call the overpowered barrack units are really just reduced OC build time, tech lab cost, bunker build time, barrack build time etc. Marine was also considered overpowered against zerg due to their lack of effective long range splash until fungle was buffed.
So the problem with Queen really is just that it allows Zerg to safely get into lategame with a significant eco advantage. It isn't really any of Zerg's core unit being overpowered, the same way that marine, marauder are never really overpowered.
The balance patches probably has the most effect on the strategies that people use: Terran didn't mass ghost against Zerg until ghost cost buff; double evo with only zergling was quite risky against mass hellions but now very much less so due to the Queen change; Ultralisk was almost never used until the build time buff. Protoss rarely FFE against Zerg until the warpgate research nerf. etc. I actually agreed that Queen buff was a good change. Although I didn't realize how it basically negate any form of Terran aggression against Zerg.
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This happens every buff, quit crying people...good players will adjust.
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On June 18 2012 14:34 The_Stampede wrote:
This happens every buff, quit crying people...good players will adjust.
Then just as things stabilize, another patch comes out which screws it up again. That happens every buff too =P
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On June 18 2012 14:37 MCXD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:34 The_Stampede wrote:
This happens every buff, quit crying people...good players will adjust. Then just as things stabilize, another patch comes out which screws it up again. That happens every buff too =P
I just love these threads full of non pros discussing balance. It's extremely funny, clearly skill takes a back seat to numbers in this game.
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On June 18 2012 14:43 The_Stampede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:37 MCXD wrote:On June 18 2012 14:34 The_Stampede wrote:
This happens every buff, quit crying people...good players will adjust. Then just as things stabilize, another patch comes out which screws it up again. That happens every buff too =P I just love these threads full of non pros discussing balance. It's extremely funny, clearly skill takes a back seat to numbers in this game.
And you're a pro yourself?
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On June 18 2012 14:43 The_Stampede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:37 MCXD wrote:On June 18 2012 14:34 The_Stampede wrote:
This happens every buff, quit crying people...good players will adjust. Then just as things stabilize, another patch comes out which screws it up again. That happens every buff too =P I just love these threads full of non pros discussing balance. It's extremely funny, clearly skill takes a back seat to numbers in this game.
That is a blatant strawman. Many of the people in this post probably speak from experience in TvZ, and not just from concluding purely from the statistics. The statistics do give people a broader view at concluding with the general trend of the matchup.
For now, it is safe to say that there are more evidence concluding that TvZ is in favor of zerg than it being even or in favor of terran, and it can be backed up by some, more or less, pro players.
I also watched a game recently (Golden vs MVP member), where the terran took down 3 zerg bases one after another, had favorable engagements as he split his terran bio army to minimize the sacrifice against banelings, but still lost in the end because the late game terran army could not stop a combination of corrupters, broodlords, infestors, zerglings, and I think there were some roaches. The terran did not lose a single base during the entire fight might I add, only the zerg, who had lost 3. Even if terran could take out the zerg army, zerg could remax easier than a terran, and sometimes faster than the terrans can remax half their army.
Infestors is also one of the reasons why sky terran, or the upper tier terran units, are almost useless. Mass infestors can counter a max battlecruiser and raven army. Just fungal and spawn infested marines and run, fungal and spawn infested marines and run, then gg. Even if you can get a few infestor with yamato cannon, they can remake that infestor faster than you can remake that battlecruiser.
I have seen others where the zerg lost more resources, but because zerg can remax so easily with late game composition, the terran still lost.
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On June 18 2012 16:41 PotatoJunior wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:43 The_Stampede wrote:On June 18 2012 14:37 MCXD wrote:On June 18 2012 14:34 The_Stampede wrote:
This happens every buff, quit crying people...good players will adjust. Then just as things stabilize, another patch comes out which screws it up again. That happens every buff too =P I just love these threads full of non pros discussing balance. It's extremely funny, clearly skill takes a back seat to numbers in this game. I have seen others where the zerg lost more resources, but because zerg can remax so easily with late game composition, the terran still lost.
Ignoring every line in your post but this one - that's the essence of zerg... A lot of units coming at you.
The problem might exist when you make one unit too good that it's cost effective enough to the point where one 200/200 army will kill you, there's no need for the "zergy"(trademark dustin browder) 300 food push. Fungal clears 50 supply in 8 seconds. You can build 8 of them at once. Sup son? Balancing the new macro mechanic should be really confusing for any zerg unit. If it's too bad, it won't be cost effective enough and zerg will just throw all their larva and still die. If it's too good, they will be able to kill you because it's difficult to block such a mass of cost-effective units.
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On June 18 2012 09:12 RyF wrote:
Gigabyte top 4 are zergs...
3 terrans left in top 16 of Dreamhack.
how long will it take until they make something happen?
just fyi in all the major tournaments (mlg,gsl,dh) top 4 finishers are mostly terrans.
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EPT
