|
On June 18 2012 04:36 Poehalcho wrote:
On a slightly hilarious note:
XvZ is now the most universally hated matchup. Zergs hate it, Toss hate it and Terran hate is well :D.
If it's not for balance then maybe for fun's sake we'll see a patch. I have a feeling that might actually be more likely to get DB to reconsider his decisions...
You sure its not XvP? Out of all the terrans/tosses/zergs I have talked to they all hate playing vs protoss lol, while terrans hate tvz they seem to hate tvp even more :D.
|
On June 18 2012 03:26 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:19 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 03:15 Esk23 wrote:On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss. Do you even watch SC2? TvP has been P favored for a long time now. TvZ was considered to be mostly balanced. "T has been OP all this time" really? Rofl. statistically it has yes, if we care about those things. And TvP still has Terran favoured winratios almost every month. Statistically, everybody has one testicle and one breast. Don't look only at statistics when it comes to discussing balance, it is merely part of what should inform the overall picture. Winrate alone does not indicate balance. Watching the games, noting how the games are being played and then taking a look at winrates can give you a good idea. For instance, we see all sorts of 1 and 2 base all in plays vs protoss netting terrans wins, but most times when it goes past 15 minutes it isn't even close. The winrate looks balanced, but in reality it is a rotten matchup (not that T should always win, but the matchup sucks to watch and sucks to play from the release in 2010). Similarly, we see terrans trying everything and hardly doing anything. The winrate corroborates that evidence, it is a rotten matchup.
I agree completly that we shouldnt blatantly look at statistics. I was somewhat stressed being lateish for work and maybe didnt get my point through in all posts. My main point was just that actually, that statistically every MU has been unbalanced alot of times and without changes it has closely evened out. We should give things time. The sad part is, blizzard doesnt seem to agree and implement changes I cant see the reason for. The overlord speed was a good change, I agree to that wholeheartadly. There was nothing worse as a zerg having 6hellions outside your base either forced to go roaches, sack OLs for the potential to scout or hope the terran dont pay attention when you kamikaze your lings at his hellions. You had no idea what of the tons of all ins that could come behind and no sure way to find out. But anyways I found the OL change was enough.. I actually discussed this quite alot with a Terran friend and I really didnt understand why queens needed a range buff... I at the same time didnt think it would matter much either but apparently I was wrong, then again, I wonder how different things would have been if they made 6 3range queens prepatch. I think it would have been almost as hard to deny the creepspread. Ofc not as hard but close to.
Anyways. Winrates alone does actually indicate balance. Its the very definition of balance, atleast its as close to it as we can come in such a dynamic field. However, it does not constitute good or in my eyes proper balance. Imo blizzard has failed to balance any MU in a good and fun dynamic way completly. All MUs have one race notably stronger lategame with maybe the exeption of PvZ where the mothership gives P a change again but without it zerg is definatly favoured.
I hope the game goes through a complete overhaul in HotS cause as you somewhat said, even with 50% winrates at this point(lets pretend it is) the game is not as enjoyable to watch as it could potentially be with some serious tweeking.
|
The overlord speed was a good change, I agree to that wholeheartadly. There was nothing worse as a zerg having 6hellions outside your base either forced to go roaches, sack OLs for the potential to scout or hope the terran dont pay attention when you kamikaze your lings at his hellions. You had no idea what of the tons of all ins that could come behind and no sure way to find out.
Yeah god forbid you actually have to make UNITS other than queens to counter hellions... I mean that just wouldnt be fair would it? Or sacrificing an overlord to figure out if enemy is expanding/teching/etc? SO IMBA, I mean, those things cost 100 MINERALS!!! Tell me this: When is the last time you saw a pro zerg actually lose to early aggression in TvZ? I havent seen it in months
|
On June 18 2012 05:40 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +The overlord speed was a good change, I agree to that wholeheartadly. There was nothing worse as a zerg having 6hellions outside your base either forced to go roaches, sack OLs for the potential to scout or hope the terran dont pay attention when you kamikaze your lings at his hellions. You had no idea what of the tons of all ins that could come behind and no sure way to find out. Yeah god forbid you actually have to make UNITS other than queens to counter hellions... I mean that just wouldnt be fair would it? Or sacrificing an overlord to figure out if enemy is expanding/teching/etc? SO IMBA, I mean, those things cost 100 MINERALS!!! Tell me this: When is the last time you saw a pro zerg actually lose to early aggression in TvZ? I havent seen it in months
Look harder.
|
On June 18 2012 05:40 teamhozac wrote:When is the last time you saw a pro zerg actually lose to early aggression in TvZ? I havent seen it in months
What early aggression? I don't think terrans are stupid enough trying anymore. We see terrans opening 2cc then getting BACK economically, getting back in tech, AND dying to a zergling/bling bust that wasn't even an all in since at the time zerg was 70 drones.
And late game vs zerg is like playing against a cheating opponent-> endless resources, full map vision, army that can only be a moved and then spam t with infestors. Terrans have to focus fire blings/ infestors, split, stutter and drop in a map that is covered by creep and overlords.
|
|
|
On June 18 2012 04:57 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 04:36 Poehalcho wrote:
On a slightly hilarious note:
XvZ is now the most universally hated matchup. Zergs hate it, Toss hate it and Terran hate is well :D.
If it's not for balance then maybe for fun's sake we'll see a patch. I have a feeling that might actually be more likely to get DB to reconsider his decisions... You sure its not XvP? Out of all the terrans/tosses/zergs I have talked to they all hate playing vs protoss lol, while terrans hate tvz they seem to hate tvp even more :D.
I feel like ZvP has the least comeback potential, either the zerg doesn't see an attack coming that completely crushes or cripples him, or he can basically eat the protoss alive, with them microing their heart out until there is simply too much stuff. I think it has a lot to do with zerg having more mobile army at almost all points of the game unless you go like 5+ phoenixes, which is kind of dumb. Protoss feels like they have this one attack to win, so they just allin. You very rarely see map control go back and forth.
|
On June 18 2012 05:44 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 05:40 teamhozac wrote:The overlord speed was a good change, I agree to that wholeheartadly. There was nothing worse as a zerg having 6hellions outside your base either forced to go roaches, sack OLs for the potential to scout or hope the terran dont pay attention when you kamikaze your lings at his hellions. You had no idea what of the tons of all ins that could come behind and no sure way to find out. Yeah god forbid you actually have to make UNITS other than queens to counter hellions... I mean that just wouldnt be fair would it? Or sacrificing an overlord to figure out if enemy is expanding/teching/etc? SO IMBA, I mean, those things cost 100 MINERALS!!! Tell me this: When is the last time you saw a pro zerg actually lose to early aggression in TvZ? I havent seen it in months Look harder.
Solid, put together, well stated argument, you really proved your point and disproved mine. Congratulations sir, I will be ignoring your posts from here on out
|
Fuck TvZ right now. Used to be my best match up now i win probably 20% of my TvZ's at the moment. The only way i get those wins is with pure bio and hoping the zerg is an idiot.
I really hope blizzard reverses the queen range buff, or someone finds a way to deal with TvZ in its current state.
|
It's called doing the reverse MorroW.
|
On June 18 2012 05:52 Zaphid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 04:57 blade55555 wrote:On June 18 2012 04:36 Poehalcho wrote:
On a slightly hilarious note:
XvZ is now the most universally hated matchup. Zergs hate it, Toss hate it and Terran hate is well :D.
If it's not for balance then maybe for fun's sake we'll see a patch. I have a feeling that might actually be more likely to get DB to reconsider his decisions... You sure its not XvP? Out of all the terrans/tosses/zergs I have talked to they all hate playing vs protoss lol, while terrans hate tvz they seem to hate tvp even more :D. I feel like ZvP has the least comeback potential, either the zerg doesn't see an attack coming that completely crushes or cripples him, or he can basically eat the protoss alive, with them microing their heart out until there is simply too much stuff. I think it has a lot to do with zerg having more mobile army at almost all points of the game unless you go like 5+ phoenixes, which is kind of dumb. Protoss feels like they have this one attack to win, so they just allin. You very rarely see map control go back and forth.
I agree. Though it's the same way if toss gets that deathball and kills the zerg army he wins, if both players get a deathball it's whoever makes a slight mistake and loses his deathball to the other opponents deathball and they lose lol. It's so dumb and boring bl/infestor/corruptor vs mothership + toss army all goes down to if vortex gets good or if toss gets mothership neural parasited. Honestly I agree with what you said, zerg has map control until the army of toss comes and the game is normally decided, if zerg holds and doesn't take to much economic damage he wins, if toss kills then he wins.
Boring dumb match up and I pray that hots fixes zvp to make it somewhat entertaining.
|
On June 18 2012 06:27 Coffee Zombie wrote:
It's called doing the reverse MorroW.
Can't morrow on ladder, reverse or not.
|
On June 18 2012 01:25 madgoat33 wrote:
30 terrans in rd 128, 5 in round of 32-16.667%
48 protoss in rd 128, 13 in round of 32- 27.083%
45 zerg in rd 127, 14 in round of 32-31.111%
Cool, Liquipedia changed the numbers after my post.
|
TvZ is fucked now. All the early pressure builds are terrible against queens. You can't even force zerg to spend larva on anything but drones unless you all in. The only way to have a chance is to play super greedy and hope the zerg doesn't decide to do a roach bane all in.
|
On June 18 2012 07:02 SnipedSoul wrote:
TvZ is fucked now. All the early pressure builds are terrible against queens. You can't even force zerg to spend larva on anything but drones unless you all in. The only way to have a chance is to play super greedy and hope the zerg doesn't decide to do a roach bane all in.
Yup. There is literally no other way to play it and even if they decide not to all in you, it's still insanely hard to deal with late game zerg. It's so blatantly unfair it's not even funny anymore. At least with t v p you can still do all ins and stuff to try and avoid late game.
|
4713 Posts
On June 18 2012 07:16 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:02 SnipedSoul wrote:
TvZ is fucked now. All the early pressure builds are terrible against queens. You can't even force zerg to spend larva on anything but drones unless you all in. The only way to have a chance is to play super greedy and hope the zerg doesn't decide to do a roach bane all in. Yup. There is literally no other way to play it and even if they decide not to all in you, it's still insanely hard to deal with late game zerg. It's so blatantly unfair it's not even funny anymore. At least with t v p you can still do all ins and stuff to try and avoid late game.
I'm actually seeing something very rare here.
Of course there is the rare idiot that comes along and says that the buff was justified and how unfair it was that zerg had to dedicate money, drones and time to making defense and couldn't take a fast 3rd, how hellions did too much for their cost etc.
But the majority almost unanimously believes that the buff was way too much, pro players are saying it, the community is saying it. There are still some that advocate patience until at least the end of the month so we see the TLPD Win rates for June but even they are kind of gravitating towards the +2 queen range being too, too much.
Now if only we could get the message across to Blizzard...
|
Is morrow vs slivko being played atm too?
|
On June 18 2012 07:50 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:16 Neurosis wrote:On June 18 2012 07:02 SnipedSoul wrote:
TvZ is fucked now. All the early pressure builds are terrible against queens. You can't even force zerg to spend larva on anything but drones unless you all in. The only way to have a chance is to play super greedy and hope the zerg doesn't decide to do a roach bane all in. Yup. There is literally no other way to play it and even if they decide not to all in you, it's still insanely hard to deal with late game zerg. It's so blatantly unfair it's not even funny anymore. At least with t v p you can still do all ins and stuff to try and avoid late game. I'm actually seeing something very rare here. Of course there is the rare idiot that comes along and says that the buff was justified and how unfair it was that zerg had to dedicate money, drones and time to making defense and couldn't take a fast 3rd, how hellions did too much for their cost etc. But the majority almost unanimously believes that the buff was way too much, pro players are saying it, the community is saying it. There are still some that advocate patience until at least the end of the month so we see the TLPD Win rates for June but even they are kind of gravitating towards the +2 queen range being too, too much. Now if only we could get the message across to Blizzard...
Terran is going to get nerfed next patch, just like every single other patch. Calling it right now.
|
On June 18 2012 08:30 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:50 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 07:16 Neurosis wrote:On June 18 2012 07:02 SnipedSoul wrote:
TvZ is fucked now. All the early pressure builds are terrible against queens. You can't even force zerg to spend larva on anything but drones unless you all in. The only way to have a chance is to play super greedy and hope the zerg doesn't decide to do a roach bane all in. Yup. There is literally no other way to play it and even if they decide not to all in you, it's still insanely hard to deal with late game zerg. It's so blatantly unfair it's not even funny anymore. At least with t v p you can still do all ins and stuff to try and avoid late game. I'm actually seeing something very rare here. Of course there is the rare idiot that comes along and says that the buff was justified and how unfair it was that zerg had to dedicate money, drones and time to making defense and couldn't take a fast 3rd, how hellions did too much for their cost etc. But the majority almost unanimously believes that the buff was way too much, pro players are saying it, the community is saying it. There are still some that advocate patience until at least the end of the month so we see the TLPD Win rates for June but even they are kind of gravitating towards the +2 queen range being too, too much. Now if only we could get the message across to Blizzard... Terran is going to get nerfed next patch, just like every single other patch. Calling it right now.
Final 1.5.0 Patch before HoTS:
- Terran has been removed.
But in all seriousness I don't know how they can't buff terran next patch since terrans are doing so badly in tvz, or atleast revert the queen buff since it's pretty much been unanimously decided that it's a terrible change.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
