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3 ghosts = 6 supply, 1 ultra = 6 supply. so in the lategame (where supplies matters a lot more than costs) ghosts where good vs ultras and incredibly OP vs BLs + they raped infestors too and can nuke. so yes mass ghost was imba but the nerf was a bit over the top. so blizzard should possibly make snipe 35 damage or so. plus give a little buff to the raven and T would be fine.
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On June 18 2012 02:28 Hds wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:25 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:17 Dalavita wrote:On June 18 2012 02:14 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 02:11 Hds wrote:
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D Don't get me wrong here, i agree terran needs some form of help. I was just saying that ghost countering everything was quite silly. Blizzard just need to learn if they nerf stuff to not nerf it into oblivion and same for buffs. the ghost nerf was to to much and the same for queen buff. They were required but not that hard. It's better to have a silly way to deal with something rather than no way as Blizzard has left terran now. And ghosts have never been any more overpowered than infestors are now, also there were less than 10 pro played and broadcasted streams where mass ghosts were used, and even then the game was won before the ghosts arrived, or zergs even won more than half of those shown. Im quite sure that Ive seen more then 10 games where ghosts where used heavily lategame TvZ and Im definatly certain that Ive seen more then 4 terran wins in those cases.. Pretty silly of you throwing out random numbers like you do claiming them as facts. Just do it Do not quote MVP, Happy, ThorZaIN, and MMA and their games
Are you fucking kidding? What a stupid post.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think atm the best thing to do is revert the snipe and\or empr nerf.
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On June 18 2012 02:28 Hds wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:25 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:17 Dalavita wrote:On June 18 2012 02:14 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 02:11 Hds wrote:
Of course! But I just wanted to underline the fact that Ghosts didn't obliterate Ultras, except if they were 25 which represent an army of 5000 min and 2500 gas (50pop), versus less than 10 Ultras (3000/200/60), which was fine, isn't it (look at the investment)?
Now without them, combined to the Queen buff and OL nitropack, the Zerg has really good time with Terran now, don't you think? Real better defense, better scouting, better prod and techswitch, what can you ask more? Other Terran nerfs? :D Don't get me wrong here, i agree terran needs some form of help. I was just saying that ghost countering everything was quite silly. Blizzard just need to learn if they nerf stuff to not nerf it into oblivion and same for buffs. the ghost nerf was to to much and the same for queen buff. They were required but not that hard. It's better to have a silly way to deal with something rather than no way as Blizzard has left terran now. And ghosts have never been any more overpowered than infestors are now, also there were less than 10 pro played and broadcasted streams where mass ghosts were used, and even then the game was won before the ghosts arrived, or zergs even won more than half of those shown. Im quite sure that Ive seen more then 10 games where ghosts where used heavily lategame TvZ and Im definatly certain that Ive seen more then 4 terran wins in those cases.. Pretty silly of you throwing out random numbers like you do claiming them as facts. Just do it Do not quote MVP, Happy, ThorZaIN, and MMA and their games
? Are you asking me to name the actual games but not from these players? If so gtfo....
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4713 Posts
On June 18 2012 02:27 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:53 Hds wrote:On June 18 2012 00:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 18 2012 00:21 Destructicon wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra. Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3? Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit. Not true, it all came down to a matter of control from both sides. Ghosts where not the end of the world counter unit for zergs T3, it just seemed so because IMMvp is a fucking monster and knew how to use them properly. I can count on one hand how many games we've seen mass snipes, Blizzcon 2011 final, Mvp vs Julyzerg on Metalopolis, Mvp vs Lucky on Daybreak GSL S1 RO32. On the flip side, when ForGG also in the RO32 of GSL Code S went up against Leenock and tried the mass ghost snipe strategy he was demolished. Thorzain when he tried mass ghost a couple of times also got demolished. In fact we have so few games of mass ghost vs Zerg T3, that we can't actually make an educated argument of weather they where OP or not, for all we know it was balanced but since it was so rare to get to that stage no one had a fucking clue as to how to play against it. And this is one of those cases where Blizzard should have just sat back and tried to observe it for a longer time, gather a larger pool of games to study, and notice if there are re-maxes/responses that the zerg can attempt but haven't done so yet. What? I don't agree with the ghost nerf at all, but mass ghosts were massively prevalent lategame in every TvZ and it was successful for Terran a lot of the time. On June 18 2012 00:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the queen buff again? Because zerg's had a hard time defending hellions? 4 hellions could supposedly infinitely deny creep. Which is bullshit, they couldn't, if you know how to do it right. Blizzard was simply wrong. You can spread it up over your ledge on nearly every map, and shoot it out in multiple directions while protecting with your queens (your queens couldn't kill the hellions, but if they stood in front of the creep tumor you wanted to make, they'd get hit if they tried to snipe the tumor, and when you see them darting for it, get in the few hits, then cancel the tumor before it gets killed, and rebuild as soon as they are forced to get out of range of queens). You don't even have the dance anymore. It's retarded. On June 18 2012 00:21 Horseballs wrote:On June 18 2012 00:16 ntssauce wrote:On June 18 2012 00:12 Assirra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords. So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race? well infestor counters almost every units from terran too ! that's the discussion! And to be honest, ghosts weren't exactly amazing vs ultras. They did well vs broods but it took as many snipes to kill an ultra as it takes to kill a broodlord post nerf. What was awesome about ghosts is that you could have them in your army and be aggressive on the map, and if zerg had broodlords your army could stand and fight while you started vikings without dying, or against ultras you could stand and fight while getting marauders. They gave you a transition window that doesn't exist anymore. Now it is, he has broodlords and I don't have vikings... well I'm dead. Or I have vikings and here are ultras... well I'm dead. Ghosts obliterated Ultras :S. Obliterated? 1 Ghost full energy couldn't kill an Ultra pre-patch. Why? Let's count together : when I say full mana, I mean, 200 - 26 (cost of cloak ability + 1sec of cloak = 1 energy), so you can't snipe 8 times with 1 Ghost. So, 6 Snipes remaining , *45 = 270 Damages, an Ultra has 500 hp if I'm not wrong It took 12 Snipe to kill an Ultra (let's say 11, because 11*45 = 495), and remind me the cost of a Ghost and an Ultra? So we needed at least 2 Ghosts to kill one Ultra (Zergrager, be aware, I'm not whining about it at all). As It has been said previously, Ghosts permit us to stand few moments when the Zerg switched his army etc. Yes, they obliterated, because it had to deal with how easy it was to target, focus fire, and ultra pathing. Ultras were most definitely obliterated.
It was also a case of Zergs using ultralisks on the wrong maps. It took months and months until Zergs finally realized how awesome Ultralisks are if:
1 You build them on non chokey maps (like Daybreak).
2 You support them properly with lings and infestors
3 You engage properly with them.
The main thing I remember from those days where players suiciding 10 ultralisks into a fortified choke that consisted of several supply depots, bunkers and planetary fortresses. Heck a big offender was Julyzerg, who threw away a won game vs MMA, when he did exactly that, attacked full on into the choke at MMA's nat on Tal'Darim Altar.
The first people that I saw using Ultralisk's properly where Stephano and then DRG, it took ages for others to catch on.
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On June 18 2012 02:32 stichtom wrote:
I think atm the best thing to do is revert the snipe and\or empr nerf.
I think the best thing would be to make the infestors smaller so that EMP will actually hit more then one :p. And maybe make snipe more valid again, not as valid but more. Im a Z btw, not a T.
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On June 18 2012 02:34 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:32 stichtom wrote:
I think atm the best thing to do is revert the snipe and\or empr nerf. I think the best thing would be to make the infestors smaller so that EMP will actually hit more then one :p. And maybe make snipe more valid again, not as valid but more. Im a Z btw, not a T.
Emp would suck vs z anyway. the infestors would just run away since they are insane fast and regain energy. Now, if you made EMP remove all energy like it used to. Then maybe that would be good.
Theres nothing more frustrating than fighting a zerg and watching the infestors get away because you know you are fucked for round 2.
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Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about.
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On June 18 2012 02:48 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:34 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:32 stichtom wrote:
I think atm the best thing to do is revert the snipe and\or empr nerf. I think the best thing would be to make the infestors smaller so that EMP will actually hit more then one :p. And maybe make snipe more valid again, not as valid but more. Im a Z btw, not a T. Emp would suck vs z anyway. the infestors would just run away since they are insane fast and regain energy. Now, if you made EMP remove all energy like it used to. Then maybe that would be good. Theres nothing more frustrating than fighting a zerg and watching the infestors get away because you know you are fucked for round 2.
EMP sucks because infestors are so fat that it takes sooooo many EMPs to get all the infestors. Also yea, they are fast as shit and if infestors are covered my Broodlords, your ghosts can't do the job they need to. It's funny that Ghosts are supposed to counter infestors yet in the situations that actually matter in TvZ they do not.
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On June 18 2012 02:48 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:34 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:32 stichtom wrote:
I think atm the best thing to do is revert the snipe and\or empr nerf. I think the best thing would be to make the infestors smaller so that EMP will actually hit more then one :p. And maybe make snipe more valid again, not as valid but more. Im a Z btw, not a T. Emp would suck vs z anyway. the infestors would just run away since they are insane fast and regain energy. Now, if you made EMP remove all energy like it used to. Then maybe that would be good. Theres nothing more frustrating than fighting a zerg and watching the infestors get away because you know you are fucked for round 2.
they are the same speed as ghosts?. Anyways, these discussions are so pointless since you can always find holes in any solution and people are silly biased to their own race.
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On June 18 2012 02:57 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:48 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 02:34 doffe wrote:On June 18 2012 02:32 stichtom wrote:
I think atm the best thing to do is revert the snipe and\or empr nerf. I think the best thing would be to make the infestors smaller so that EMP will actually hit more then one :p. And maybe make snipe more valid again, not as valid but more. Im a Z btw, not a T. Emp would suck vs z anyway. the infestors would just run away since they are insane fast and regain energy. Now, if you made EMP remove all energy like it used to. Then maybe that would be good. Theres nothing more frustrating than fighting a zerg and watching the infestors get away because you know you are fucked for round 2. they are the same speed as ghosts?. Anyways, these discussions are so pointless since you can always find holes in any solution and people are silly biased to their own race.
Creep dude. It is nigh impossible to stop it from spreading everywhere without having a strong army to push late game.
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next patch is gonna revert the queen buff by at least 50%. Unless they do that then every zerg will just open 6 queens and be safe+ get sick creepspread. The matchup was so balanced that this buff really swinged the balance. I don't think the game should be having 30-70 balanceissues 2 years into the game. Blizz needs to tone down the patches alot. I hate it when a patch completely changes a matchup. Patches should be finetuning the matchup not completely changing it.
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On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about.
If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance.
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I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss.
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On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss.
Idd, just looking at the statistics given in the OP the numbers are nothing new. TvP has had the same numbers multiple times and so has TvZ in terrans favour. And not that long ago actually, and yet it was apparently "the most balance MU". give people some time to find solutions for shit before hopping on the Imba bandwagon.
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On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss.
You have to be kidding me.
Everyone propogates the myth that terran has an advantage early-midgame so that excuses the late game being horrible. Now you are trying to tell people that terrans are just used to being able to control the game from early on and there really isnt a problem. This contradicts everything about terran that everyone (including blizzard) has ever said. Hilarious.
OK
I'll take a shit early game for an awesome lategame. Deal? Because right now terran has no advantage in any state of the game vs zerg, yet zerg seems to have a HUGE advantage lategame, and clear advantages early and mid game.
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On June 18 2012 03:03 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:55 Esk23 wrote:
Blizzard needs to revert the Queen change, TvZ was the most balanced matchup in SC2 before the change and now it's heavily Z favored because Z can use just queens to counter any type of early game pressure terran does, also it allows Z to easily cover the map in creep and take an early 3rd base. Also there is the problem in lategame TvZ where Terran can't touch Zerg's Broodlord/corrupter/queen/infestor army. You can't even go near that thing, the Queen transfuses keep everything alive while your stuff dies. And don't tell me there is something called "Ravens". Ravens are only good vs that army if there are no infestors, otherwise infestors fungle them to death from range. Remember HSM is a very low range ability.
If Blizzard reverts the Queen change and buffs Ghosts, this will help the TvP lategame problem and it will handle that ridiculous queen garbage that lets Zergs take the whole map in creep easily with little to worry about. If we are actually using the statistics given to use as a sign of imbalance you can never claim that TvZ has been super balanced. If we then revert the queen change and buff ghosts the winratios will once again be heavily terran favoured. And to fix TvP lategame sometime most likely will have to be done about terran early/midgame strength. If they could only remove warpgates so that defenders advantage actually was a fact in all MUs the game would be so much easier to balance.
Most would agree it was the most balanced matchup, I'm sure it wasn't %100 balanced. But the queen change CLEARLY is not the right change to try and balance the game, and if you can't see that then lol. I was talking about TvZ lategame armies, though TvP lategame is almost as bad for Terran. If not buff ghosts then it has to be something to address lategame TvZ. Perhaps Raven HSM range or something.
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On June 18 2012 03:04 Apolo wrote:
I think a lot of people here are overreacting because they're used to the SC2 where Terran had above 50% winrate vs all matchups, and are used to seeing terran controling the game as they wish from the early game pressure, etc. That lasted more than a year, it's normal that suddenly you feel Z is OP. Actually, T has been OP all this time, just now has it gone for the first time below 50% win rate. Let it sink for a while, then discuss.
.... zerg had 54.6 percent win rate even before the patch. And most of non korean tournies were dominated by zergs. w/e we gotta stop feeding trolls.
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Can't people here just stop cry and start playing instead!
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Dreamhack, 5 Terrans at the Ro32. need any more stats? winratios are not only a little below 50%, they go rapidly towards 0%!
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EPT
