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On June 17 2012 21:24 Destructicon wrote:
One thing that disturbs me about the nerf to Ghosts.
Most people cite the Ghost's versatility as justification for its nerf, and follow up with how its boring that we see so many caster types dominate.
But at the same time infestors don't get any changes, and you see sometimes players with absurd numbers of infestors, the only reason you also don't see masses of HT, but you still see plenty, is because the Protoss needs to invest gas into other units in their army and upgrades.
Why is it ok for Protoss and Zerg to have such versatile casters but the Terran equivalents have to be nerfed to shit and become useless?
The reason you don't see masses of HTs is that the opponent can just run their army into yours and crush you if you don't have enough buffering units. Even in lategame situations when they have more gas than minerals, Protoss players will simply make archons instead of HTs, and this is the correct thing to do. You never really need more than 6 HTs with your army, unless you like getting them all EMPd in a clump.
HTs are actually the way a caster unit should be, imo, issues with Terran lategame units and feedback aside. They're slow, squishy, and awful without support of a ground army, which is why you don't see mass HT in any matchup. Contrast with Infestors, which can basically deal with anything on their own. Ghosts are kind of a weird unit, given that they have a normal attack and are quite beefy, but the Snipe nerf was probably too severre. 50% damage vs Massive would've been fine, there was nothing wrong about it aside from mass Ghosts countering all Hive tech.
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Whats the point of that picture? Terran is 50 supply ahead. Everyone knows zerg can make workers faster than any other race.
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I don't know if this as already being discuss but I can't stop thinking, Storm range has been reduce to 1.5, EMP radius too, why not reducing fungal to 1.5 too. If i'm not wrong, range for fungal is still 2.0. Don't know if it will solve something but I think it could definitely help terran.
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It has been socially acceptable to trash Terrans, look down on them and shout the imba word around since day 1 of Sc2.
Zergs are always right & better players. Their race is far the hardest. Any map ever made is too Terran fav. Only zergs can take fast third without risking anything and its fine. If Protoss or Terran gets fast third it is unfair, easy to defend, no risk involved & bad map.
This is what TL & other SC2 community sites has taught me.
World of zergcraft.
I would not be shocked if there is more Terrans nerfs inc. Fasten your seatbelts folks.
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On June 17 2012 22:54 Flaele wrote:
I don't know if this as already being discuss but I can't stop thinking, Storm range has been reduce to 1.5, EMP radius too, why not reducing fungal to 1.5 too. If i'm not wrong, range for fungal is still 2.0. Don't know if it will solve something but I think it could definitely help terran.
What the fuck? Why is Fungal still 2.0? I was under the impression it was 1.5 like everything else. No wonder it feels so strong.
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or buff emp and storm to 2
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Buffing tanks with +10 damage would be just amazing: it would make mech better, it won't affect tvp, and tvz might become a little easier for terran.
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Dreamhack so far :/ :
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+1 terran max.
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4713 Posts
On June 17 2012 23:25 Snowbear wrote:
Buffing tanks with +10 damage would be just amazing: it would make mech better, it won't affect tvp, and tvz might become a little easier for terran.
That isn't enough, tanks don't serve as proper space control any more because they deal a pathetic 35 damage to light. They need to be reverted back to their old damage, and to anyone saying that is OP, no it isn't, that is what space control is meant to do. There are already plenty of ways to counter siege tanks and there are plenty more being added in HoTS, under these conditions I don't see why siege tanks need to remain as week as they are now.
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On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max.
That's interesting, not certain it's significant.
Terran had the least participants and in the first round, all races lost around half of their players.
But in the round of 32, P and Z still had around half their players advance, but Terran had less than 30%. Was it just the way the groups were set up or something else? Anyone want to comment that watched a large part of the games?
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On June 17 2012 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:That's interesting, not certain it's significant. Terran had the least participants and in the first round, all races lost around half of their players. But in the round of 32, P and Z still had around half their players advance, but Terran had less than 30%. Was it just the way the groups were set up or something else? Anyone want to comment that watched a large part of the games?
Well dreamhack has only a low amount of TOP terrans... but also good terrans got kicked out like qxc and some else...and alot of unknown players ( toss and zerg ) advanced over to next round ;;
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On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max.
Shall we get the GSL charts out to show all the tournaments where Terran took up more than 50% of the last 16 with regularity?
I think we wont because it's frankly stupid to keep bringing up nonsense screenshots loaded with agenda, ignoring all the important subjective reasons around the situation and try to show something that suits your opinion.
The level of distorted whining in this thread is incredible, but it is at least a little entertaining.
Did that guy really post a screenshot showing a crazy amount of drones killed and complained at the Zerg player replenishing the Drone count (at the obvious expense of army size). He really should have cropped the supply numbers out to try and help his agenda even more.
Win rates have been bouncing around for years and they will continue to do so. New strategies will come out that crush older strategies and players will continually be adapting and struggling against one another. This is the game, if you don't like it I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to sell you an Xbox 360.
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On June 17 2012 23:12 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 22:54 Flaele wrote:
I don't know if this as already being discuss but I can't stop thinking, Storm range has been reduce to 1.5, EMP radius too, why not reducing fungal to 1.5 too. If i'm not wrong, range for fungal is still 2.0. Don't know if it will solve something but I think it could definitely help terran. What the fuck? Why is Fungal still 2.0? I was under the impression it was 1.5 like everything else. No wonder it feels so strong.
Well, I checked Liquipedia and it indicate 2.0 so I tried storm and fungal on marines pack :
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i46.tinypic.com/nwwi6w.png) (Same number of marines (48) and both spells cast on middle.
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On June 17 2012 23:48 avc wrote:Shall we get the GSL charts out to show all the tournaments where Terran took up more than 50% of the last 16 with regularity? I think we wont because it's frankly stupid to keep bringing up nonsense screenshots loaded with agenda, ignoring all the important subjective reasons around the situation and try to show something that suits your opinion. The level of distorted whining in this thread is incredible, but it is at least a little entertaining. Did that guy really post a screenshot showing a crazy amount of drones killed and complained at the Zerg player replenishing the Drone count (at the obvious expense of army size). He really should have cropped the supply numbers out to try and help his agenda even more. Win rates have been bouncing around for years and they will continue to do so. New strategies will come out that crush older strategies and players will continually be adapting and struggling against one another. This is the game, if you don't like it I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to sell you an Xbox 360.
1. i didn'T complain i just showed the current state of terran in dreamhack.
2.What do i care about your GSL-Charts if all of them are pre patch and have almost nothing to do with the winrates now?
3.whatever you said in your last part i would like an xbox for free.
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On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max.
Let's be honest here tough, there are not that many good foreigner terrans compared to the korean counterparts.
Look at previous code S where there are 2 zergs in ro16.
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On June 17 2012 23:53 Assirra wrote:Let's be honest here tough, there are not that many good foreigner terrans compared to the korean counterparts. Look at previous code S where there are 2 zergs in ro16.
jup already mentioned it above  ! think the same way..
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On June 17 2012 23:51 Flaele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 23:12 Shiori wrote:On June 17 2012 22:54 Flaele wrote:
I don't know if this as already being discuss but I can't stop thinking, Storm range has been reduce to 1.5, EMP radius too, why not reducing fungal to 1.5 too. If i'm not wrong, range for fungal is still 2.0. Don't know if it will solve something but I think it could definitely help terran. What the fuck? Why is Fungal still 2.0? I was under the impression it was 1.5 like everything else. No wonder it feels so strong. Well, I checked Liquipedia and it indicate 2.0 so I tried storm and fungal on marines pack : + Show Spoiler +(Same number of marines (48) and both spells cast on middle.
Huh, Storm is actually a fair bit smaller than the visual indicates.
But yeah, nerf Fungal, definitely.
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On June 17 2012 23:54 ntssauce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 23:53 Assirra wrote:On June 17 2012 23:27 ntssauce wrote:Dreamhack so far :/ : IMAGE+1 terran max. Let's be honest here tough, there are not that many good foreigner terrans compared to the korean counterparts. Look at previous code S where there are 2 zergs in ro16. jup already mentioned it above ! think the same way..
Those pre patch results actually DO matter since it showed zerg needed a boost.
Granted that the boost they got is to powerful, should lower queen range a bit at least maybe make it 4 instead of 5.
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So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords.
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On June 18 2012 00:05 graNite wrote:
So funny how Zergs say that Ghosts could "counter every hive tech unit". Yeah, thats right, but you needed so many ghosts that is was fair. You invested a lot in Hive tech and in the ultra/broodlord tech, and i as a terran invest a lot in ghosts. moreover you need a lot of apm to snipe them all. try to do more than ten snipes while kiting and splitting, it is so hard. It may look overpowered on streams, when koreans snipe every unit, but they are on their maximum apm at that point.
nowadays.
what has terran left now against hive tech? when the zerg switched from broodlord to ultra, the terran has now useless vikings and has to kite like crazy - again, the terran player has to find micro solutions.
why do zerg players not see how the infestor counters every unit in the game? fungal can detect, has area damage, can stun every unit (except massives) and then fungal again. chain fungal kills marines just for energy, just like snipe did (but i would trade area damage for single target damage at any point). So, with the zergs argumentation, the infestor would be overpowered, too.
The Ghost nerf made the tvz matchup harder for terran, in was just right before.
I am afraid that in a few weeks, david kim gives an interview in which he says "yeah, there is a problem in the tvz matchup when terrans build their mobile army with marines and medivacs, and we found out that the terran has to drop in the midgame to be equal in the late game with the zerg. if he does no significant damage to the zergs economy, he has a disadvantag for the lategame."
moreover, i am asking all zergs: what should be the ultimate terran goal in the tvz matchup for the army composition? zerg has broodlord infestor corrupter, what can terran do? BCs get sniped by corrupters, ghosts are useless now, thors die to broodlords.
So are you honestly saying that 1 unit should be able to counter every single t3 unit of another race?
When the zerg switches tech path guess what, switch as well to something that counters ultra.
Why should terran be able to stay on the same tech when zerg switches in t3?
Those Ghost nerf was maybe a bit to hard but pre nerf it was basically game over when x amount of ghosts came cause they were unkillable. For some reason ghosts are also pretty beefy as a caster unit.
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EPT
