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Amazes me that even my fellow zerg players cant see a problem with ZvT atm. Terran needs to be substantially better than the Z or hit a lucky timing to win atm.
Also the matchup has gone from an interesting state where both T and Z have to keep a tight rein on their greed or they can be punished hard, to a state where zerg can get away with whatever they want and thus terran also have to go insane on the ecocheese or they can't even keep up. Everything boring about ZvP has been transported into ZvT which used to be unarguably imo the most fun matchup.
I used to get very annoyed when kids on the forums complained about Blizzards balancing skills, but honestly by this point I am actually just getting the impression that the balance team are utterly incompetent.
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On June 17 2012 16:30 Iksf wrote:
Amazes me that even my fellow zerg players cant see a problem with ZvT atm. Terran needs to be substantially better than the Z or hit a lucky timing to win atm.
Also the matchup has gone from an interesting state where both T and Z have to keep a tight rein on their greed or they can be punished hard, to a state where zerg can get away with whatever they want and thus terran also have to go insane on the ecocheese or they can't even keep up. Everything boring about ZvP has been transported into ZvT which used to be unarguably imo the most fun matchup.
I used to get very annoyed when kids on the forums complained about Blizzards balancing skills, but honestly by this point I am actually just getting the impression that the balance team are utterly incompetent.
It's really sad. TvZ was one of my most favorite matchups. We'd play, sometimes zerg hits a great timing and I'd die, or get to super late game, trade bases all day. Complain about how stupid Protoss is, etc etc
Now it's like 3 bases, 4-5 queens, drone all day. Then roll Terrans over. Terrans have to adapt soon but why even break something that was so well balanced?
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On June 17 2012 16:30 Iksf wrote:
Amazes me that even my fellow zerg players cant see a problem with ZvT atm. Terran needs to be substantially better than the Z or hit a lucky timing to win atm.
Also the matchup has gone from an interesting state where both T and Z have to keep a tight rein on their greed or they can be punished hard, to a state where zerg can get away with whatever they want and thus terran also have to go insane on the ecocheese or they can't even keep up. Everything boring about ZvP has been transported into ZvT which used to be unarguably imo the most fun matchup.
It was unarguably the most balanced matchup too. Blizzard really fucked up on this one. The overlord change was good, and has solved a lot of problems for zergs already. The queen change was unnecessary and just destroyed the best matchup in the game. The patch took away most of the openers terran had (reaper, banshee, 2rax) and severely crippled reactor hellion openings. It allows the zerg to be super greedy and STILL be safe from all early game harass.
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On June 17 2012 14:38 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +That's a good point except its total bullshit. Go back 2-3 months before the queen buff and zergs were never losing to hellion runbys. ??? I don't even know how to respond to this level of delusion. Show nested quote +I would generally categorize good simcity as having a perfect seal. There's no point to it otherwise (with zerg at least). Hell, spines can move. make full walls and fill a 2-hex hole with a single spine, move it aside when you want to let things out. You're still stuck in your base with no means to expand against a race that is at a huge advantage staying on even bases with you. And you still needed to build at least one extra queen that can't spread creep or roaches because Zerg buildings cannot actually wall off cost effectively with spines because they don't make a perfect seal unless the grid lines up just right with your hatchery. Show nested quote +Also, i find it funny that you mention blizzard cup. Wanna know why?
End Date: 2011-12-17
That's six months ago. That's when the reactor hellion opening was just becoming popular. That's when people were still going mutas.
The slayers team's hellion bullds that swept an entire MLG and popularized hellions were back in July 2011 6 months before that tournament. You're full of it. Show nested quote +And why wait so long to start third? Hellions can't kill it, so use good simcity to block natural and send out your roaches to push them off. If you make, say, 5 mutas, you spend 600/600 to cement map control, force turrets, thors, or a split of the terran army, and if he has a third before you why not just allin? That's what pretty much every zerg does against fast 3cc/hellion builds, because one banshee actually can't kill an army!~ Neither of those builds gives Zerg a decent chance in the mid game. The mutalisk build is just fucking stupid. 5 mutalisks is a shit ton of gas off of two base and WILL NOT force thors, as if that was really such a terrible thing to have to make in the first place, five mutas will make the Terran CONSIDER a missile turret in each mineral line. It's 700 gas that could have been baneling speed, and 2/2 upgrades. and 12 more banelings or kicking off infestor tech, for 400 - 600 minerals worth of hellions. You know what Zergs were doing up until the queen buff? All inning in more than half their ZvT's. The month leading up to the queen buff was roach baneling all in after roach baneling all in, because the alternative was getting your third after the Terran. Zerg players were using roaches a few months back, they hardly worked because roaches are still slow as shit before lair tech and an upgrade which is a huge gas sink that overall is terrible against any non meching build. Roaches also still couldn't do shit against banshees which will still deny your third if the hellions didn't roast your drone before you got the hatch down. If you wanted to stop the banshee and he went for cloak, tough shit there's nothing you can do because you went for roaches and your lair is delayed and you cannot spread creep, defend your third and keep a perfect seal at your natural. And there's no fucking way to scout what the Terran is doing behind his wall, so you have no clue if he's doing double fact hellions, a marauder hellion all in, cloaked banshees or taking a quick third CC. All these reasons are exactly why Zergs were going nuts with the all ins. Show nested quote +Morrow and DRG have both said that the queen buff was too strong/unnecessary (that i've seen), and pretty much no zergs have lost to a hellion runby in forever. Zergs haven't lost to any 4 gates or dt rushes recently either, I wouldn't call that grounds for imbalance.
You dont know much about game now and even less before queen buff.
TvZ now is bigger joke than any matchup at any point in game. Everyone says it, dont mind terrans only - every zerg I know says that ZvT is a joke and that queen buff was not needed in the first place.
You dont know about it because you are spectator who listens to interviews and blizzard which is complete bullshit because A) players are nice in interviews and dont want to put themselfs at risk by saying X is broken and Y is awful B) blizzard wont admit that they made huge mistake, ever.
Every terran, protoss or zerg player say that zerg is way too strong and winning vs zerg late game is not winnable if zerg is decent with clicking fungals. Even DRG and Stephano said zerg is too strong in ZvT and all korean pro terrans share same opinion.
I noticed people mention 2-3 banshee and raven builds to deny creep, that really sounds good on paper and then you do it in game and zerg has 5-6 queens which kill banshees and raven and you wasted a ton of minerals/gas for nothing instead making other units.
There is no build in game that can deny zerg creep or deny zerg third base without losing more than you gain from it.
TvZ pre-patch was the most balanced matchup with 49-51% win rate for either T or Z. I see you are saying that zerg was never able to get 3rd base up. Nerchio was playing with roach openers vs terrans probably for over a year now and was always able to spread creep and take fast 3rd - other zergs were just too greedy to spend money on units before 10min. Another thing is that 99% of zergs went mutas and if you would go roaches you would slow down muta tech while now you can easily go from roaches into infestors.
You saying that 4-6 helions killed zergs at highest level is hilarious, people in masters on EU know how to make wall and put queen to block natural, if zerg dies to 4 helions he made huge mistake/is bad.
Zergs only allined before queen patch? haha..what?
Terrans wont pull out some build out of their ass and make queens bad because queens kill any early pressure on their own, doesnt matter if its marine, helion or banshee pressure. If zerg is allowed to drone on 3 base that results in 11-12min hive.
Death to queendralisks.
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On June 17 2012 16:30 Iksf wrote:
Amazes me that even my fellow zerg players cant see a problem with ZvT atm. Terran needs to be substantially better than the Z or hit a lucky timing to win atm.
Also the matchup has gone from an interesting state where both T and Z have to keep a tight rein on their greed or they can be punished hard, to a state where zerg can get away with whatever they want and thus terran also have to go insane on the ecocheese or they can't even keep up. Everything boring about ZvP has been transported into ZvT which used to be unarguably imo the most fun matchup.
I used to get very annoyed when kids on the forums complained about Blizzards balancing skills, but honestly by this point I am actually just getting the impression that the balance team are utterly incompetent.
Yeah, arguably the most funnies and entertaining match-up for the most people came one of the worst. There is no any good match-ups at the moment. All of them have gotten very stale and boring or otherwise more or less one sided.
At least TvT is still some what good, where every terran unit has a chance to shine at some point in it. =)
I used to get annoyed at people complaining about Blizzards balancing skills too, but I lost all hope when they had to make decision to either buff mothership (which wasn't even that huge buff) or the freaking carrier. T_T
I believe that just some random dude picked on battle.net forums would do much better at balancing the game than Blizzard does now.
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On June 17 2012 10:55 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 10:46 Drowsy wrote:On June 17 2012 09:43 Poehalcho wrote:On June 17 2012 08:52 Biggun69 wrote:
Lol, terran dominate for the entirety of sc2 in TvZ and now that zerg are having a few months of good % winrate in that match up doesn't mean we should be qqing. Terrans will find a way to adapt don't worry. when they don't even have tech paths. loled. I have to agree with that, I didn't get it either. Terran=Rax=>Factory=>Port ---------------------------//=>Robo=>Bay Protoss=Gate=>Core=Citadel=Archives ----------------------------\\=>Star=>Beacon --------------------------------------//=>Spire===//==>Greater Zerg=>Hatch=>Pool=>Lair=>Nest=>Hive=>Cavern ------------ \\=>Warren------\\=>Den No matter how you look at it Terran is the one without tech paths.
obviously what I meant is that all protoss tech paths are affected by the same upgrades. So in effect they only have 2 tech paths. Land and Air, but when was the last time a protoss used air <__>.
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On June 17 2012 17:49 Poehalcho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 10:55 Blasterion wrote:On June 17 2012 10:46 Drowsy wrote:On June 17 2012 09:43 Poehalcho wrote:On June 17 2012 08:52 Biggun69 wrote:
Lol, terran dominate for the entirety of sc2 in TvZ and now that zerg are having a few months of good % winrate in that match up doesn't mean we should be qqing. Terrans will find a way to adapt don't worry. when they don't even have tech paths. loled. I have to agree with that, I didn't get it either. Terran=Rax=>Factory=>Port ---------------------------//=>Robo=>Bay Protoss=Gate=>Core=Citadel=Archives ----------------------------\\=>Star=>Beacon --------------------------------------//=>Spire===//==>Greater Zerg=>Hatch=>Pool=>Lair=>Nest=>Hive=>Cavern ------------ \\=>Warren------\\=>Den No matter how you look at it Terran is the one without tech paths. obviously what I meant is that all protoss tech paths are affected by the same upgrades. So in effect they only have 2 tech paths. Land and Air, but when was the last time a protoss used air <__>.
Except Templar and Colossus are undeniably different techpaths. Up to a certain point in the game, you choose either one of them and they fulfill roughly the same role (AoE damage). Just because they are affected by the same upgrades doesn't make them the same tech path.
Also, I agree with Beastyqt. Blizzard dropped the ball on this one.
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On June 17 2012 18:06 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 17:49 Poehalcho wrote:On June 17 2012 10:55 Blasterion wrote:On June 17 2012 10:46 Drowsy wrote:On June 17 2012 09:43 Poehalcho wrote:On June 17 2012 08:52 Biggun69 wrote:
Lol, terran dominate for the entirety of sc2 in TvZ and now that zerg are having a few months of good % winrate in that match up doesn't mean we should be qqing. Terrans will find a way to adapt don't worry. when they don't even have tech paths. loled. I have to agree with that, I didn't get it either. Terran=Rax=>Factory=>Port ---------------------------//=>Robo=>Bay Protoss=Gate=>Core=Citadel=Archives ----------------------------\\=>Star=>Beacon --------------------------------------//=>Spire===//==>Greater Zerg=>Hatch=>Pool=>Lair=>Nest=>Hive=>Cavern ------------ \\=>Warren------\\=>Den No matter how you look at it Terran is the one without tech paths. obviously what I meant is that all protoss tech paths are affected by the same upgrades. So in effect they only have 2 tech paths. Land and Air, but when was the last time a protoss used air <__>. Except Templar and Colossus are undeniably different techpaths. Up to a certain point in the game, you choose either one of them and they fulfill roughly the same role (AoE damage). Just because they are affected by the same upgrades doesn't make them the same tech path. Also, I agree with Beastyqt. Blizzard dropped the ball on this one.
It was the easiest way I could think of to say it in 1-2 words. It's not hard to realize what I meant. TL needs to quit bitching about small stuff, they tend to do it a lot.
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Damn, that ziggitz guy is mad.
We should line up a Ziggitz vs *thread showmatch.
It'll be alot more interesting than most of this stupid discussion and whining thats been repeated 50 times already.
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its funny david kim in his interview said they WILL revert the queen change if it proves to be too much, as far as I know blizzard has NEVER EVER in any game admitted to making a huge mistake, so I really dont believe this guy at all, I'll believe when I see it happen
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I support Ziggitz vs. thread showmatch. And yeah, the Blizz balance department is balls out retarded. To the point I enjoy watching current TvP more than TvZ. That's got to be some kind of a record.
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On June 17 2012 19:16 Satiinifi wrote:
its funny david kim in his interview said they WILL revert the queen change if it proves to be too much, as far as I know blizzard has NEVER EVER in any game admitted to making a huge mistake, so I really dont believe this guy at all, I'll believe when I see it happen
they could also adjust something on the terran side as the queen change turned zvz into a great matchup
also people act like zvt was ever balanced, in fact it was not once in favor of zerg in 2 years, also being able to build 6 hellions to conatain the zerg, safely build 3 ccs and double ebay and have map control until minute 10 was just dumb, im glad this got adressed by blizzard
if it turns out terrans cant find a solution in the next weeks blizzard can do something but in my experience after every terran nerf there was a lot of crying only for them to realize that they have many unexplored options that turned the tides again
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i would be really interested in the overall ZvT winrates of the recent main tournaments combined.
that would be: GSL, GSTL, MLG Anaheim, Dreamhack, Gigabyte and maybe WCS NA Nationals.
would be interesting to see if someone could do that...
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If they let the queen change stay then they should definetly do something to creep, make it so that when you kill tumors the creep dissappears faster, or that you cant CANCEL creep tumors, its absolutely ridiculous that this 25mana costing thing can also be canceled like a building for free and then replanted making it totally foolproof, you can just try to spread it even if ur opponent is harassing and then just simply cancel without any punishment, way too noobfriendly if you ask me, zerg doesnt really have any punishment for making mistakes,....
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On June 17 2012 16:36 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 16:30 Iksf wrote:
Amazes me that even my fellow zerg players cant see a problem with ZvT atm. Terran needs to be substantially better than the Z or hit a lucky timing to win atm.
Also the matchup has gone from an interesting state where both T and Z have to keep a tight rein on their greed or they can be punished hard, to a state where zerg can get away with whatever they want and thus terran also have to go insane on the ecocheese or they can't even keep up. Everything boring about ZvP has been transported into ZvT which used to be unarguably imo the most fun matchup. It was unarguably the most balanced matchup too. Blizzard really fucked up on this one. The overlord change was good, and has solved a lot of problems for zergs already. The queen change was unnecessary and just destroyed the best matchup in the game. The patch took away most of the openers terran had (reaper, banshee, 2rax) and severely crippled reactor hellion openings. It allows the zerg to be super greedy and STILL be safe from all early game harass.
I think people focus too much on that queen buff. Do you really think things will change after a revert of that buff? By buffing queens, they made zergs realise that queens are actually awesome, just like they made protoss players realise that their upgrades are awesome.
After a revert of the buff, things will remain 100% the same imo.
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On June 17 2012 19:16 Satiinifi wrote:
its funny david kim in his interview said they WILL revert the queen change if it proves to be too much, as far as I know blizzard has NEVER EVER in any game admitted to making a huge mistake, so I really dont believe this guy at all, I'll believe when I see it happen
I faintly recall Dustin admitting that the HT amulet was imba. It was in some interview or something, I don't really remember it anymore since it happened about 2 years ago. Well that and the reapers in TvZ match-up. Other than those two, nothing else really comes to mind at the moment.
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On June 17 2012 19:24 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 19:16 Satiinifi wrote:
its funny david kim in his interview said they WILL revert the queen change if it proves to be too much, as far as I know blizzard has NEVER EVER in any game admitted to making a huge mistake, so I really dont believe this guy at all, I'll believe when I see it happen they could also adjust something on the terran side as the queen change turned zvz into a great matchup also people act like zvt was ever balanced, in fact it was not once in favor of zerg in 2 years, also being able to build 6 hellions to conatain the zerg, safely build 3 ccs and double ebay and have map control until minute 10 was just dumb, im glad this got adressed by blizzard if it turns out terrans cant find a solution in the next weeks blizzard can do something but in my experience after every terran nerf there was a lot of crying only for them to realize that they have many unexplored options that turned the tides again
TvZ was very balanced in all sorts of professional tournament play over the last... year? There was this episode where Zergs struggled with the mass snipes, but it was very short and got nerfhammered very quickly (which turned out to be an ok balancing change!)
Despite that TvZ was allways entertaining, versatile and zerg allways managed to get their wins. The reason for the few zergs in the last seasons of GSL was never TvZ, in fact the winratio in this matchup were allways near 50-50. Zerg struggled against Protoss a lot! (in season 2 only Inca managed to lose a PvZ in Code S!)
The Hellion contain is very much needed to prevent the zerg from exploding his economy early on. He had to invest in a few roaches, if he wanted a quick third. That was fair. On the other hand we have the strong roach/ling/baneling semi allin, which basically is a benchmark for every terran build. Terran does not have any kind of pressure or allin build atm that scares zerg. The reason is the way too powerful queen and the consequences are zerg players that get away with crazy droning.
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On June 17 2012 11:46 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 08:52 Biggun69 wrote:
Lol, terran dominate for the entirety of sc2 in TvZ and now that zerg are having a few months of good % winrate in that match up doesn't mean we should be qqing. Terrans will find a way to adapt don't worry. That's what should happen but historically Terrans are very bad at adapting. When Zerg started doing broodlord infestor en mass it took Terrans more than 6 months to start making ghosts against it despite Zergs telling them over and over again that;s exactly what they needed to do. When the ghost was nerfed and it couldn't be massed as a catch all counter the Terran response was to stop making ghosts altogether and Infestor play of any kind has become more powerful than ever before because Terrans can't adapt and get used to the idea of producing 5-7 ghosts just for emping and disabling the one caster that that is carrying Zerg right now. It will take one or two Terrans to figure it out and post good results in a tournament but Terrans will not adapt very quickly at all in my opinion. Mentally, Terrans have already collectively given up.
No, terrans weren't bad at adapting, and they never have we been, and no, 5-7 ghosts don't deal with infestors at all. 5-7 ghosts right now are not even worth the cost investment, and tanks are a lot more useful both against infestors and against anything else. You're so clueless it hurts.
Also, TvZ was about to get zerg favored regardless of queen buff or not due to zergs getting better and better at dealing with timings, defending hellion attacks and maps getting bigger and bigger. The queen buff just made zerg get an instant skill boost of two months equivalent when it came to defending compared to their terran counterparts and it's all gone to shit now. The lack of any viable lategame terran army or unit composition makes sure that the terran can't even turtle up and aim for the lategame.
But you are right about one thing. Terrans have given up mentally. I'm personally sick of Blizzards haphazard balancing and shitty design, and I play the game just to practice my RTS mechanics now, not for it's own merits.
On June 17 2012 16:39 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
You saying that 4-6 helions killed zergs at highest level is hilarious, people in masters on EU know how to make wall and put queen to block natural, if zerg dies to 4 helions he made huge mistake/is bad.
What? Gold level zergs can make a wall and micro their queens well enough so hellions can't get inside, and that was before the queen buff. Now they don't even have to bother.
On June 17 2012 20:13 Snowbear wrote:
I think people focus too much on that queen buff. Do you really think things will change after a revert of that buff? By buffing queens, they made zergs realise that queens are actually awesome, just like they made protoss players realise that their upgrades are awesome.
After a revert of the buff, things will remain 100% the same imo.
I agree completely. Zergs not using queens the way they are now or not getting units before the ten minute mark was a sign of retardation rather than the viable way to play.
On June 17 2012 20:14 TeeTS wrote:
TvZ was very balanced in all sorts of professional tournament play over the last... year? There was this episode where Zergs struggled with the mass snipes, but it was very short and got nerfhammered very quickly (which turned out to be an ok balancing change!)
Are you being sarcastic? TvZ lategame is now screwed completely after the ghost change.
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Blizzard always patches just as people are starting to figure out how too deal with stuff.
Take ZvT. Zergs were having a bit of trouble with hellion opening. Just before the patch we saw zerg players making a few roaches to deal with that and that was actually working out quite well.
They needed better scouting options as that was their biggest problem. It's not that they didn't have the tools necessary to deal with early game pressure, they just weren't sure which tools too take out of the tool box.
1 of those two buffs alone would have helped in a huge way, Combining both OL speed and range on the queen was a little overboard. Although as someone said earlier the range buff has helped in ZvZ during the ling/bling knife fights.
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On June 17 2012 20:20 Dalavita wrote:
Are you being sarcastic? TvZ lategame is now screwed completely after the ghost change.
If terran and zerg go on equal footing into the lategame at the pre-queen patch timing (which is around 15-20min), it's is very fair actually. The problem right now is, that zerg go with a huge economic lead at around 12min into their lategame. This is just too fast for terran to handle. With thor/marine/viking, a few ghosts in the mix and good positioning you can handle broodlord infestor quite ok!
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EPT
