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On June 13 2012 01:36 Satiinifi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:32 xrapture wrote:On June 12 2012 23:11 Garmer wrote:
yeah, raven need a seriously buff, at least in speed No thanks. I really am against the whole HOTS concept of press 1 spell and win. Players should be more reliant on skill than gimmicky spellcasters. It takes an exceptional player to gain small advantages throughout the game through macro and decision making. a gold player could press r for hunter seeker and kill the entire army of a player 100x his better. I like how Blizzard approached the game with making Terran's core units better- but with the stupid spider mine as long as all the other gimmicky nonsense the other races received I really fear HOTS :/ kinda like now a masters level zerg can 1a his way through tournaments to win vs 100 times better players ?
I don't get the reference... what player and tournament are you referring to when you say this?
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how about any zerg ? go loook at tlpd scroll few pages you'll see 30 different zerg names and like 4 terrans :Dd
not saying some of these zergs couldnt win games with previous patches but they certainly dont need to do anything in order to win right now
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On June 13 2012 01:40 Satiinifi wrote:
how about any zerg ? go loook at tlpd scroll few pages you'll see 30 different zerg names and like 4 terrans :Dd
not saying some of these zergs couldnt win games with previous patches but they certainly dont need to do anything in order to win right now
What? No.
Master level Zerg, 1a-ing in tournaments, and against players that were 100 times better.
I'd like specific examples, because I can't think of a single one. Please. Thank you in advance 
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On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do.
One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority.
Lets go through them:
RO8:
Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins.
RO4:
Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins.
Final:
Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard).
Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses.
Winrate in standard games: 50%
Winrate when cheesing: 100%
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On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100%
PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T
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On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T
I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard.
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On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T
MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing.
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On June 13 2012 01:36 Satiinifi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:32 xrapture wrote:On June 12 2012 23:11 Garmer wrote:
yeah, raven need a seriously buff, at least in speed No thanks. I really am against the whole HOTS concept of press 1 spell and win. Players should be more reliant on skill than gimmicky spellcasters. It takes an exceptional player to gain small advantages throughout the game through macro and decision making. a gold player could press r for hunter seeker and kill the entire army of a player 100x his better. I like how Blizzard approached the game with making Terran's core units better- but with the stupid spider mine as long as all the other gimmicky nonsense the other races received I really fear HOTS :/ kinda like now a masters level zerg can 1a his way through tournaments to win vs 100 times better players ?
This.
I always die a little inside whenever I'm 'favored' against a Zerg on ladder, because I know I'm about to lose 20 points, lol.
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On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit.
TvP will always be T favored because Terran's units get better as you micro them better. Except blizzard is stupid and instead of making Protoss changes that encourage them to micro to get more out of units, they nerf Terran. As tip top Terrans get better and better, they will have to nerf Terran to keep Protoss competitive.
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Oh no
Zerg > Terran for the first month in over a year
Blizzard must have fucked up real bad
But seriously, give it a chance. This is wayyyy different from the 1/1/1. 1/1/1 was a whole family of builds developed over time in response to a pretty static Protoss. Queen buff/ Overlord nitro is relatively new. and it'll take a little while to see if Terran (can) work something out.
I'll admit it just feels a little too strong (pretty sure queens on creep can kite zealots now, rofl), but don't forget that factory is still faster than slow overlord.
Idk, but my PvZ is fine(like seriously, I'm still probably 70%), and my PvT is... well, getting better. DT good unit. Still, the fact that its cloaked just makes everyone rage and call it cheesy and imba.
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On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. Winrate in standard games: 50%
Is this a problem?
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On June 13 2012 01:32 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:11 Garmer wrote:
yeah, raven need a seriously buff, at least in speed No thanks. I really am against the whole HOTS concept of press 1 spell and win. Players should be more reliant on skill than gimmicky spellcasters. It takes an exceptional player to gain small advantages throughout the game through macro and decision making. a gold player could press r for hunter seeker and kill the entire army of a player 100x his better. I like how Blizzard approached the game with making Terran's core units better- but with the stupid spider mine as long as all the other gimmicky nonsense the other races received I really fear HOTS :/
Ok, so all the other races get awesome aoe damage spells and terran doesn't
makes sense~
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On June 13 2012 01:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:40 Satiinifi wrote:
how about any zerg ? go loook at tlpd scroll few pages you'll see 30 different zerg names and like 4 terrans :Dd
not saying some of these zergs couldnt win games with previous patches but they certainly dont need to do anything in order to win right now What? No. Master level Zerg, 1a-ing in tournaments, and against players that were 100 times better. I'd like specific examples, because I can't think of a single one. Please. Thank you in advance
Satiini is just pissed that he lost to a random Zerg in TSL4 qualifiers :D
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On June 13 2012 02:10 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 13 2012 01:40 Satiinifi wrote:
how about any zerg ? go loook at tlpd scroll few pages you'll see 30 different zerg names and like 4 terrans :Dd
not saying some of these zergs couldnt win games with previous patches but they certainly dont need to do anything in order to win right now What? No. Master level Zerg, 1a-ing in tournaments, and against players that were 100 times better. I'd like specific examples, because I can't think of a single one. Please. Thank you in advance Satiini is just pissed that he lost to a random Zerg in TSL4 qualifiers :D
Considering hos username is "Satiinifi" I don't think he is the progamer Satiini. Might be wrong though.
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I was alreaddy pissed before since start of this patch I knew it would be totally ridiculous even tho zergs lategame vs terran was totally op already before the patch
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Satiini + fi , fi = finland, maybe
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On June 13 2012 02:01 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. TvP will always be T favored because Terran's units get better as you micro them better. Except blizzard is stupid and instead of making Protoss changes that encourage them to micro to get more out of units, they nerf Terran. As tip top Terrans get better and better, they will have to nerf Terran to keep Protoss competitive.
This is simply not true. There is nothing about TvP that is Terran favored. You conflate sufficiency and necessity. Terran micro is Necessary to do well, but it is not Sufficient to win games or glean an advantage.
If you don't possess adroit micro as Terran, you simply get destroyed. If you do possess adroit micro, it puts you on even footing. That's the difference.
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On June 13 2012 01:53 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T I think he was just mind gaming his opponents or whatever it is called to think the would play standard again, but then go for a cheesy strategy to catch them off guard.
On June 13 2012 01:58 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:49 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 01:45 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 13 2012 01:23 SeaSwift wrote:On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win He didn't. It is a complete myth that MVP played very cheesily, perpetuated in part by Naniwa fans. He played a macro game with drops in most games, and just destroyed his opponents. He was willing to go all-in when he saw weakness, like in game 1 vs Parting, but that is not cheese. Also, fuck opinions. People are biased, people are morons. Opinions don't say the whole story any more than statistics do. One of us two hasn't watched the last GSL season. Starting from the RO8, the MVP wins from 'standard play' are NOT in the majority. Lets go through them: RO8: Wins on Cloud Kingdom (standard-ish, tank timing push to end), Entombed valley (cheesy, 3rax marine/SCV rush) and Daybreak (cheesy, 2 proxy rax). Lost a standard game on Antiga. 1 (debatable) standard win, 1 standard loss, 2 cheesy wins. RO4: Wins on Daybreak (standard game), Ohana (1-1-1) and Metropolis (standard - exploiting brainfart by parting).. Lost a standard game on Cloud Kingdom. Running total: 3 standard win, 2 standard losses, 3 cheesy wins. Final: Wins on Daybreak (1base play), Entombed (standard, Squirtle without zealots), Antiga (standard) and Atlantis (proxyrax). Losses on Cloud Kingdom (standard), Metropolis (standard into BC turtle) and Dual Sight (standard). Grand total: 5 standard wins, 5 cheesy wins, 5 standard losses. Winrate in standard games: 50% Winrate when cheesing: 100% PvT early game, so imbalanced. T_T MVP came to the conclusion he had a better chance winning with cheese than trying to play a standard game with Protoss. This was a calculated decision. And with someone like MVP who plays rank 30 GM as Random on KR, I'm sure he knew what he was doing.
Just a little joke bros, no need to get all defensive. <3
Although Terran cheese is a lot better than Protoss cheese, can't see how anyone can argue that.
On June 13 2012 02:01 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. TvP will always be T favored because Terran's units get better as you micro them better. Except blizzard is stupid and instead of making Protoss changes that encourage them to micro to get more out of units, they nerf Terran. As tip top Terrans get better and better, they will have to nerf Terran to keep Protoss competitive.
They're solving this problem in HotS by making mech the 1a option for Terran.
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On June 13 2012 01:11 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:59 manloveman wrote:On June 13 2012 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On June 13 2012 00:34 SeaSwift wrote:
and PvT will continue being a bit Terran favoured because of basic maths. Terran is stronger before the 15 minute mark, Protoss after, and the time before that mark comes before the time after so it's easier to force an engagement and win.
Calling TvP a bit T favoured is really a slap in the fact of every terran. TvP is definitely not terran favoured... It's not heavy P favoured either, but still a bit. And you build that statement on the numbers in OP i suppose... I build that statement on opinions from terrans. I build it also on the last gsl, where immvp had to cheese hard to win. Ask any terran what he thinks about tvp. I am NOT saying that TvP is heavy P favoured, I am just saying that it's slightly P favoured, and not slightly T favoured as the guy I quoted said. Atm I am actually really happy when I meet a protoss on the ladder, because this means it's not a zerg (tvz makes tvp look heaven).
Snowbear is pretty much right, from what I have played and seen. PvT is mostly map dependant(protoss love ramps, we love them so) and some maps do need to give terran more room to drop, CloudK to be specific. I don't know much about TvZ, except that zergs are really good at holding early agression now.
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EPT
