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On June 08 2012 11:18 MegaFonzie wrote:
The OP is biased as hell :/
ZvT is the only MU that feels weird atm, but I'm always on the side of 'let things play out' for these type of things. We'll see with the upcoming GSL how the matchup really is.
Everything else seems decent to me, Immortal all ins are insanely good atm so hopefully zergs can work out an efficient way to counter them. I'm sure a lot of terrans still feel TvP is imbalanced but whatever, the statistics continue to suggest its a balanced matchup.
I kinda agree that the OP is biased as hell lol. I mean ya the buffs completely changed the meta, but to only point out the Korean matchup vs the internation matchup is a bit sketchy, the two winrates show two completely different things. I kinda felt hellions were a bit too cost effective for what they were worth but we'll see how things play out....
Also, if you guys are so sure about balance y not run a hypothesis test on the data versus 50% for the matchup? -_-
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It's only a 115 game sample size (Korea). People are extrapolating far too much. By the end of June the amount of information inferable from simply games alone will be much higher and more accurate. Of course, the danger with looking at win rates is you're ignoring the human element entirely.
What if MKP MVP and TaeJa all dominated their opponents and won every tournament that month but the Terran win rate was 45% against both races? Would you still say there were balance issues or would you say that other Terrans had not balanced themselves to the new changes.
Drawing too much from information like this can lead to fallacies like that. It's fun to see the win rates and it can be telling when the sample size is large enough and there have not been any major balance changes or new strategies. However I personally believe this chart is not indicative of overall balance. So yeah, round about way of saying I agree with the above poster.
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On June 08 2012 13:40 Probe1 wrote:
It's only a 115 game sample size (Korea). People are extrapolating far too much. By the end of June the amount of information inferable from simply games alone will be much higher and more accurate. Of course, the danger with looking at win rates is you're ignoring the human element entirely.
What if MKP MVP and TaeJa all dominated their opponents and won every tournament that month but the Terran win rate was 45% against both races? Would you still say there were balance issues or would you say that other Terrans had not balanced themselves to the new changes.
Drawing too much from information like this can lead to fallacies like that. It's fun to see the win rates and it can be telling when the sample size is large enough and there have not been any major balance changes or new strategies. However I personally believe this chart is not indicative of overall balance. So yeah, round about way of saying I agree with the above poster.
If MKP MVP dominated sc2 while other Terrans suck, it means 1) MKP MVP =imba 2) Terran needs buff.
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On June 08 2012 13:40 Probe1 wrote:
It's only a 115 game sample size (Korea). People are extrapolating far too much. By the end of June the amount of information inferable from simply games alone will be much higher and more accurate. Of course, the danger with looking at win rates is you're ignoring the human element entirely.
What if MKP MVP and TaeJa all dominated their opponents and won every tournament that month but the Terran win rate was 45% against both races? Would you still say there were balance issues or would you say that other Terrans had not balanced themselves to the new changes.
Drawing too much from information like this can lead to fallacies like that. It's fun to see the win rates and it can be telling when the sample size is large enough and there have not been any major balance changes or new strategies. However I personally believe this chart is not indicative of overall balance. So yeah, round about way of saying I agree with the above poster.
And what about international? It's not as extreme, but why did it go from 50.1 - 49.9 to 45.1 - 54.9? I mean really, why was there even a buff to zerg when the matchup was almost PERFECTLY balanced?
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I don't have a problem with this. Terran just needs a late game option, such as mech. No current mech is a joke, I mean BW mech.
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On June 08 2012 14:11 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 13:40 Probe1 wrote:
It's only a 115 game sample size (Korea). People are extrapolating far too much. By the end of June the amount of information inferable from simply games alone will be much higher and more accurate. Of course, the danger with looking at win rates is you're ignoring the human element entirely.
What if MKP MVP and TaeJa all dominated their opponents and won every tournament that month but the Terran win rate was 45% against both races? Would you still say there were balance issues or would you say that other Terrans had not balanced themselves to the new changes.
Drawing too much from information like this can lead to fallacies like that. It's fun to see the win rates and it can be telling when the sample size is large enough and there have not been any major balance changes or new strategies. However I personally believe this chart is not indicative of overall balance. So yeah, round about way of saying I agree with the above poster. And what about international? It's not as extreme, but why did it go from 50.1 - 49.9 to 45.1 - 54.9? I mean really, why was there even a buff to zerg when the matchup was almost PERFECTLY balanced?
Not going to mention what is balanced or not. But whenever a race is buffed (or 90% of the time) that race does extremely well for at least 2-4 weeks and there is constant bitching how xx race can't beat race that got buffed.
Ghost change lots of terrans said tvz would be unwinnable (far from it). Same thing about the supply depo before rax, terran will never be able to beat zerg again! Same with roach range buff, etc.
again not mentioning balance or my thoughts but I am going to wait a little longer before judging because it always goes this way how x race says its impossible due to the patch and a month later game is more balanced or w/e.
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On June 08 2012 14:36 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 14:11 SolidMoose wrote:On June 08 2012 13:40 Probe1 wrote:
It's only a 115 game sample size (Korea). People are extrapolating far too much. By the end of June the amount of information inferable from simply games alone will be much higher and more accurate. Of course, the danger with looking at win rates is you're ignoring the human element entirely.
What if MKP MVP and TaeJa all dominated their opponents and won every tournament that month but the Terran win rate was 45% against both races? Would you still say there were balance issues or would you say that other Terrans had not balanced themselves to the new changes.
Drawing too much from information like this can lead to fallacies like that. It's fun to see the win rates and it can be telling when the sample size is large enough and there have not been any major balance changes or new strategies. However I personally believe this chart is not indicative of overall balance. So yeah, round about way of saying I agree with the above poster. And what about international? It's not as extreme, but why did it go from 50.1 - 49.9 to 45.1 - 54.9? I mean really, why was there even a buff to zerg when the matchup was almost PERFECTLY balanced? Not going to mention what is balanced or not. But whenever a race is buffed (or 90% of the time) that race does extremely well for at least 2-4 weeks and there is constant bitching how xx race can't beat race that got buffed. Ghost change lots of terrans said tvz would be unwinnable (far from it). Same thing about the supply depo before rax, terran will never be able to beat zerg again! Same with roach range buff, etc. again not mentioning balance or my thoughts but I am going to wait a little longer before judging because it always goes this way how x race says its impossible due to the patch and a month later game is more balanced or w/e.
To be fair, there's a big difference between people making knee-jerk reactions based on nothing, and legitimate tournament results showing a real (imbalanced) change in a matchup that was otherwise looking pretty even.
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On June 08 2012 14:41 stormfoxSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 14:36 blade55555 wrote:On June 08 2012 14:11 SolidMoose wrote:On June 08 2012 13:40 Probe1 wrote:
It's only a 115 game sample size (Korea). People are extrapolating far too much. By the end of June the amount of information inferable from simply games alone will be much higher and more accurate. Of course, the danger with looking at win rates is you're ignoring the human element entirely.
What if MKP MVP and TaeJa all dominated their opponents and won every tournament that month but the Terran win rate was 45% against both races? Would you still say there were balance issues or would you say that other Terrans had not balanced themselves to the new changes.
Drawing too much from information like this can lead to fallacies like that. It's fun to see the win rates and it can be telling when the sample size is large enough and there have not been any major balance changes or new strategies. However I personally believe this chart is not indicative of overall balance. So yeah, round about way of saying I agree with the above poster. And what about international? It's not as extreme, but why did it go from 50.1 - 49.9 to 45.1 - 54.9? I mean really, why was there even a buff to zerg when the matchup was almost PERFECTLY balanced? Not going to mention what is balanced or not. But whenever a race is buffed (or 90% of the time) that race does extremely well for at least 2-4 weeks and there is constant bitching how xx race can't beat race that got buffed. Ghost change lots of terrans said tvz would be unwinnable (far from it). Same thing about the supply depo before rax, terran will never be able to beat zerg again! Same with roach range buff, etc. again not mentioning balance or my thoughts but I am going to wait a little longer before judging because it always goes this way how x race says its impossible due to the patch and a month later game is more balanced or w/e. To be fair, there's a big difference between people making knee-jerk reactions based on nothing, and legitimate tournament results showing a real (imbalanced) change in a matchup that was otherwise looking pretty even.
Oh I was talking about tournament's to not ladder  . Normally when a buff comes in the race that got buffed (and lots of times right before a big tournament) that race does extremely well. Normally it was zerg getting the buff to lol.
But yeah zerg doing very well obviously zvt. I just wonder if it'll be the same in 2 weeks or if terrans will have figured out something or if blizzard actually needs to revert/buff terran.
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Meh, none of this seems very telling or important atm, give it time, then we will see. Generally speaking, sometimes shit happens and a race needs to just adjust to the changes and take a few losses and suck it up for a while.
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On June 08 2012 14:11 SolidMoose wrote:
And what about international? It's not as extreme, but why did it go from 50.1 - 49.9 to 45.1 - 54.9? I mean really, why was there even a buff to zerg when the matchup was almost PERFECTLY balanced?
This so much
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Maybe Terran will get a new late game option/unit.......... but we can be sure that it will take some stupidly gusu amount APM to be used remotely efficiently, to ensure that we have no time to macro during battles compared to other races 
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On June 08 2012 10:10 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 09:47 xParadoxi wrote:On June 08 2012 09:38 Probe1 wrote:
Fair enough to have your own opinion on that but qxc and Genius were both showing promise using reapers and carriers 7 months ago. Neither unit has been nerfed since then iirc. They aren't as easy as phoenix+void ray or just dropping 6 rax and pulling scvs but you know, they were shown that even in the pinnacle of SC2 competition to be viable. I guess anything could be "viable" but they are playing to win. The units flat out just arent as good as other options in the game. You can use them but you are going to be handicapping yourself if you do. There's a reason that the last time you saw them was 7 months ago. It isn't about easier vs harder. It's about good vs bad. Also mech is extremely immobile and you will be picked apart by good zerg players. Granted I haven't played sky terran much, but fungal is an easy answer to air units. I'm referencing games where qxc and Genius won. Geniusqxc (may be wrong game I'm 100% sure it was on XNC and 90% sure it was during qxc's all kill of IM in the GSTL. Day9 Daily #216 focusing on mass reaper vs protoss with qxc -I've actually had my fill for the day. I can only take so much after playing Zerg since release.. You know sometimes shit just sucks for you and you have to overcome it. Remember when everyone whined about infestor brood lord and zergs screamed GHOOOSTS USE EM THEY'RE GREAT! Yeah.
QXC's reaper game on XNC was against Genius during TSL3 I think?
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On June 08 2012 11:32 jeffvip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 11:18 MegaFonzie wrote:
The OP is biased as hell :/
ZvT is the only MU that feels weird atm, but I'm always on the side of 'let things play out' for these type of things. We'll see with the upcoming GSL how the matchup really is.
Everything else seems decent to me, Immortal all ins are insanely good atm so hopefully zergs can work out an efficient way to counter them. I'm sure a lot of terrans still feel TvP is imbalanced but whatever, the statistics continue to suggest its a balanced matchup. 1 more retarded toss player. The only things Terran complain is Protoss late game, not the winning %. Terran have the advantage & ability to win it before 15 min mark anyway.
Don't call people retarded please
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In my opinion, something must be done with the queen range to balance TvZ. I mean I can easily win high master terrans while offracing with zerg, just because it's so easy to stop pressure and macro up with the new queen buff. I don't understand why blizzard had to buff queens, if they want to give zerg more safe early game, then they should buff terran late game or else terran has no way to beat zerg early-mid game because zerg can scout and defend too easily with the new buffs and they can't stop him late game since zerg can simply use their infestor broodlord army which is the strongest late game.
Also, I think queens can even have an impact on PvZ and make it a more aggressive unit. For example, I watched WhiteRa's stream yesterday, he went stargate pressure into colossus and the zerg got a huge amount of queens to defend it and then simply killed whitera with a huge push with tons of queens and some roaches and corruptors for support. WhiteRa killed all the roaches and corruptors, but the queens were too powerful and invincible with their transfuse and simply owned him.
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On June 08 2012 17:50 vorxaw wrote:Maybe Terran will get a new late game option/unit.......... but we can be sure that it will take some stupidly gusu amount APM to be used remotely efficiently, to ensure that we have no time to macro during battles compared to other races
You know that Protoss can't micro during battles if they choose to macro right...? Sigh at you people
If early game Terran was given an indirect nerf and now the win rates are skewing then late game Terran is likely to be buffed if it continues this way. It's what we wanted
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Win rates arent the definitive answer on balance, you have to also control for player effort, which is something they might look into in the future. We need objective measurements of difficult of tasks, once those are established, then you can compare win rates.
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gosh the OP is so biased it's pretty disgusting.
Z is in a good spot right now. Not really OP I would say.
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ZvT looks imbalanced, but we need at least one more month to make reasonable judgement.
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On June 08 2012 18:00 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 11:32 jeffvip wrote:On June 08 2012 11:18 MegaFonzie wrote:
The OP is biased as hell :/
ZvT is the only MU that feels weird atm, but I'm always on the side of 'let things play out' for these type of things. We'll see with the upcoming GSL how the matchup really is.
Everything else seems decent to me, Immortal all ins are insanely good atm so hopefully zergs can work out an efficient way to counter them. I'm sure a lot of terrans still feel TvP is imbalanced but whatever, the statistics continue to suggest its a balanced matchup. 1 more retarded toss player. The only things Terran complain is Protoss late game, not the winning %. Terran have the advantage & ability to win it before 15 min mark anyway. Don't call people retarded please
Sorry if I offended anybody but I just cannot find another words which are more suitable to use in this situation. This scenario have been explained so many times yet he still wanna post on that. I don't understand why so many Protoss player still wanna stress the winning % is about 50%. Is about the late game which bring fun to player and spectator, not the winning or losing matter.
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Good thing my friends and I have been playing League of Legends a lot more, don't want to deal with TvP or TvZ 'til something gets fixed.
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EPT
