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On June 08 2012 08:12 kckkryptonite wrote:
Terrans just need to figure out new stuff like Zerg did! Let the metagame evolve as Blizzard did with Zerg.
how are you letting the meta game evolve when you buff zerg when they where already in a balanced matchup? seriously, zvt was somewhat balanced, now it's not. that was blizzard coming in and screwing it up, so now terrans have to evolve the meta game based on not what the zerg players are doing, but because what blizzard is screwing up?
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On June 08 2012 07:52 Shiori wrote:
It just seems like they're making standard play more and more greedy by taking away every possible risk. Standard play for Zerg should not be taking a quick third and being totally safe with a few Queens. That's silly. That should be greedy play. When I, as a Protoss player, want to take a fast third, I need to get a lot of Sentries against Zerg, which cost a decent amount of gas. Even then, there are things the Zerg player can do to interfere and/or try to deny the third. This, in turn, means that Protoss players can't take 5 minute thirds because we'd never be able to defend them!
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You may have valid points, but this is not one of them. A) Zerg taking the fast 3rd is in response to YOUR greedy play and B) It should be hard to Protoss to take that 3rd base against Z, since 3 base Protoss is extremely powerful.
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Terran vs Zerg is unplayable now. The range boost in queens now assures that good zergs will be producing anywhere from 3-5 queens early game. This ensures a quick creep spread that cant be slowed, and also shuts down any early aggression and banshee play. Ontop of that, zerg is just massing lings into infestors and usually brood lords. Terran cant amass a comparable army untill late game, and by that time brood lords are already lawling at you from above. Good luck terran fellows, gonna be rough for awhile.
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On June 08 2012 07:49 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:38 Mjolnir wrote:
You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
What are you talking about lol. None of those change the zvt midgame. Fast Reaper would still be garbage thanks to five range queen. Midgame is still the same. They put Zerg "in a position to respond to your play" by giving near perfect information of what terran is doing in early midgame. And then Zerg can optimally defend. Thanks to spawn larvae Zerg will have more than enough units to defend given perfect scouting, and afterwards superior econ.
I'll tell you what I'm talking about "lol".
Fast reaper wouldn't still suck. It'd probably be more even, actually and give you another option to harass, fight creep, deny a third, and/or scout with pressure. Instead of reapers getting unholy free kills like they used to they'd now have to really work for kills and a zerg would have to work for defence. It wouldn't be broken, it'd be closer to even and come down to player skill instead of a build order win/loss. At the very least, it'd be one more option for Terran.
Midgame changes if you read my post thanks to the change to earlier nerfs and/or the pressure you apply to Zerg early because of them. That's what people are complaining about here. The TvZ midgame sucks for T because they can't pressure early.
Zerg has always been the race that most has to react to whatever their opponent is doing. This is fairly common knowledge. Zerg scouting utterly sucked prior to the recent OL buff. It was garbage and many Zergs would lose to a BO just because they had no way of scouting what was coming. It's not that they didn't scout - it's that they couldn't scout. Big difference.
Spawn larva is not as broken as people are suddenly making it out to be - and it certainly isn't the problem currently.
I'm not defending Zerg or Protoss, nor am I hating on Terran. See prior posts of mine, I want Terran to be better than it is. I hate that Terran plays like it currently does. I just don't believe that screaming about other races being imbalanced or needing a nerf is the right solution.
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On June 08 2012 08:21 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:49 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 08 2012 07:38 Mjolnir wrote:
You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
What are you talking about lol. None of those change the zvt midgame. Fast Reaper would still be garbage thanks to five range queen. Midgame is still the same. They put Zerg "in a position to respond to your play" by giving near perfect information of what terran is doing in early midgame. And then Zerg can optimally defend. Thanks to spawn larvae Zerg will have more than enough units to defend given perfect scouting, and afterwards superior econ. I'll tell you what I'm talking about "lol". Fast reaper wouldn't still suck. It'd probably be more even, actually and give you another option to harass, fight creep, deny a third, and/or scout with pressure. Instead of reapers getting unholy free kills like they used to they'd now have to really work for kills and a zerg would have to work for defence. It wouldn't be broken, it'd be closer to even and come down to player skill instead of a build order win/loss. At the very least, it'd be one more option for Terran. Midgame changes if you read my post thanks to the change to earlier nerfs and/or the pressure you apply to Zerg early because of them. That's what people are complaining about here. The TvZ midgame sucks for T because they can't pressure early. Zerg has always been the race that most has to react to whatever their opponent is doing. This is fairly common knowledge. Zerg scouting utterly sucked prior to the recent OL buff. It was garbage and many Zergs would lose to a BO just because they had no way of scouting what was coming. It's not that they didn't scout - it's that they couldn't scout. Big difference. Spawn larva is not as broken as people are suddenly making it out to be - and it certainly isn't the problem currently. I'm not defending Zerg or Protoss, nor am I hating on Terran. See prior posts of mine, I want Terran to be better than it is. I hate that Terran plays like it currently does. I just don't believe that screaming about other races being imbalanced or needing a nerf is the right solution.
How in the hell would reapers do any damage at all vs 5 range queens? If you bring in reapers the queen is just gonna kill them with minimal effort. Especially with the amount of queens that zergs are producing.
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If I'm not mistaken, speed reapers are faster than queens on creep. Due to their prodigious building destruction rate, they would have immense potential to cause havoc..
Except speedlings. By the time a third is going up there will be speedlings and they will catch reapers with ease on creep, giving you a tech -> deadend.
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On June 08 2012 08:28 xParadoxi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 08:21 Mjolnir wrote:On June 08 2012 07:49 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 08 2012 07:38 Mjolnir wrote:
You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
What are you talking about lol. None of those change the zvt midgame. Fast Reaper would still be garbage thanks to five range queen. Midgame is still the same. They put Zerg "in a position to respond to your play" by giving near perfect information of what terran is doing in early midgame. And then Zerg can optimally defend. Thanks to spawn larvae Zerg will have more than enough units to defend given perfect scouting, and afterwards superior econ. I'll tell you what I'm talking about "lol". Fast reaper wouldn't still suck. It'd probably be more even, actually and give you another option to harass, fight creep, deny a third, and/or scout with pressure. Instead of reapers getting unholy free kills like they used to they'd now have to really work for kills and a zerg would have to work for defence. It wouldn't be broken, it'd be closer to even and come down to player skill instead of a build order win/loss. At the very least, it'd be one more option for Terran. Midgame changes if you read my post thanks to the change to earlier nerfs and/or the pressure you apply to Zerg early because of them. That's what people are complaining about here. The TvZ midgame sucks for T because they can't pressure early. Zerg has always been the race that most has to react to whatever their opponent is doing. This is fairly common knowledge. Zerg scouting utterly sucked prior to the recent OL buff. It was garbage and many Zergs would lose to a BO just because they had no way of scouting what was coming. It's not that they didn't scout - it's that they couldn't scout. Big difference. Spawn larva is not as broken as people are suddenly making it out to be - and it certainly isn't the problem currently. I'm not defending Zerg or Protoss, nor am I hating on Terran. See prior posts of mine, I want Terran to be better than it is. I hate that Terran plays like it currently does. I just don't believe that screaming about other races being imbalanced or needing a nerf is the right solution. How in the hell would reapers do any damage at all vs 5 range queens. If you bring in reapers the queen is just gonna kill them with minimal effort. Especially with the amount of queens that zergs are producing.
It's pretty simple. Reaper deals 1 shot with dual pistols and eats 2 darts. Harrass successful!
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On June 08 2012 07:38 Mjolnir wrote:
You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
It would improve ZvZ and ZvP though. Fungal is way too versitile its basically great against any unit .
I hate how easily a few Infestors basically shut down any airplay in ZvZ and ZvP ( they would as well in ZvT but no reasonable Terran even trys that ) because of the snare.
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On June 08 2012 08:21 Mjolnir wrote:
Spawn larva is not as broken as people are suddenly making it out to be - and it certainly isn't the problem currently.
Spawn larvae is the fundamental design problem from which the other problems with Zerg flows.
If Spawn Larvae was not so powerful, then killing/crippling/pressuring Zerg early on wouldn't be necessary. Consequently, the early survivability boost that Zerg recently gained (overlord scouting plus queen range) wouldn't have impacted the game as much as it did. As things are, however, Terran needs to be able to exert a lot of pressure on Zerg to keep the drone count in check, and accordingly the changes to ovies and queens has significantly hurt Terran winrates.
Sure, it's possible to finely balance Zerg around being easy/hard to kill in the early game, but it would make for easier balance (and a better game) if Zerg was balanced against Terran throughout the game, instead of being slanted one way and then the other.
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What makes the queen buff so imbalanced against terran is the fact that denying early game creep spread isn't hard - it's impossible. With TLO style creep spread, you can cover the map in about 13 minutes. This means that the build a terran does MUST deny this creepspread, something that is impossible without committing quite a lot to this. If zerg goes greedy (which we all know they do) the macro of terran simply won't keep up. Try harassing someone who has a twenty second heads-up and has the possibility of rooting your medivacs without even bothering to get anti air.
At its current state, it looks like TvZ is unwinnable if Zerg plays like they should. Korea is what matters the most, that is where the level is highest, and only from the highest level of play can balance be determined. 61-39. REALLY Blizzard?
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They should really make fungal growth do friendly fire like emp/storm so zerg can´t just spam it on everything without risking to hit their own units.
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Queens should cost 25 gas imo. Queens are the only mineral only spell caster that is capable of ranged ground/air attacks and using very, very useful ability's. If they cost gas this would atleast force zergs to scout better and rely on more intelligent decision making skills while punishing a zerg for blindly making 6 queens as it'll delay their tech considerably.
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On June 08 2012 07:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:49 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 08 2012 07:38 Mjolnir wrote:
You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
What are you talking about lol. None of those change the zvt midgame. Fast Reaper would still be garbage thanks to five range queen. Midgame is still the same. They put Zerg "in a position to respond to your play" by giving near perfect information of what terran is doing in early midgame. And then Zerg can optimally defend. Thanks to spawn larvae Zerg will have more than enough units to defend given perfect scouting, and afterwards superior econ. It just seems like they're making standard play more and more greedy by taking away every possible risk. Standard play for Zerg should not be taking a quick third and being totally safe with a few Queens. That's silly. That should be greedy play. When I, as a Protoss player, want to take a fast third, I need to get a lot of Sentries against Zerg, which cost a decent amount of gas. Even then, there are things the Zerg player can do to interfere and/or try to deny the third. This, in turn, means that Protoss players can't take 5 minute thirds because we'd never be able to defend them! So basically I agree with Kawaii; if you remove all the risks from playing greedy, then it's not playing greedy anymore. Considering the advice Zergs have always given is to punish them when they're greedy, this should be a pretty big warning sign to everyone.
Yup that just about sums it up...
Don't nerf zerg, I like where they are... just give Terrans the tools to pressure early (without going all in) and keep up economically (without being horribly exposed to all ins).
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On June 08 2012 08:39 Sovern wrote:
Queens should cost 25 gas imo. Queens are the only mineral only spell caster that is capable of ranged ground/air attacks and using very, very useful ability's. If they cost gas this would atleast force zergs to scout better and rely on more intelligent decision making skills while punishing a zerg for blindly making 6 queens as it'll delay their tech considerably.
This is actually an incredibly smart solution.
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On June 08 2012 05:36 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 05:27 Armada Vega wrote:
I noticed protoss struggled a lot against zergs if they couldn't pressure or delay a zerg's third, zergs seemed to be unmanageable on 3base early. But in the past terran were always able to delay the third subsequently creating a more balanced back and forth game.
The queen change seems to have brought in the ability for zergs to get 3 base fast without drone damage, resulting in zergs getting to an unmanageable level for terrans.
As we see in GSL, GSTL, korean zergs can get their 60 drones by 8mins+ and max on roach by 12-13, like Stephano's build against protoss. To already reach your desired drone level before 10mins, is more then protoss or terran can do econ wise. In the past, terran were able to stunt the drone levels and if done well could maintain even econs throughout the game. However, making many queens with almost no lings, results in zergs drone production being unaffected by any marines or helion or banshee pressure terrans try to do to stunt drone production or to delay third.
This is only an observation, obviously I can mis-read things or not notice other details that are important. Perhaps there are new terran timings or builds that are making a difference. you are right. The big problem is, there is no real opening that makes sense for terran. you see a lot of korean terrans try out banshees. But with zerg relying more on queens, banshees become just less effective. With nowadays 2 standard queens only for creepspread, you can't even deny creep with them... This opening seems to be worse than before, but where's the alternative? hellions are really shut down now. numbers of 2-6 hellions just have no impact on the creepspread. Higher numbers are a huge commitment for little gain, and even may fuck you up completely, when the zerg decides to got ultra fast muta (saw jinro vs life? ^^). I'm trying around with an old MKP build making 1rax expand into 3rax (techlab-reactor-reactor) marauder/combat shielded marine pressure and go into a 3rd base from there before teching up to tanks and medivacs. It seems quite effective on smaller maps like korhal or ohana, (or entombed close pos), but on large maps, it hits way to late, so this is only an option on small maps. On large maps, I have to admit that I have no idea how to pressure the zerg to prevent at least the creep from reaching your natural, before you are able to push out, while going for a fast 3rd. The big problem is, that without denying the creep, you absolutely don't stand a chance. Oncreep engagements just go way too well for the zerg.
yeah controlling creep spread is very difficult now, not much you can do before 10-11mins, unless zerg miss manages his units / queens. Banshee can deal with early roach quite well provided its a delayed cloak banshee( since you still need ground army to compliment). But I still feel the biggest problem with queen range is that zergs can take a 3rd almost as fast as they do in PvZ, then going banshee means nothing, or leaving your base to do anything before 10mins, since you simply will not have enough units compared to zergs 60+ drones at 8mins or more. the econ and units produced kick in too hard it seems. I guess we never noticed this before since terran were able to delay 3rd.
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I'm a bit confused cause I seem to remember the winrates for the previous month being much different. Did they change the winrates from last months chart? Cause I do remember Terran having the worst winrate last month and having under 50% in each matchup.
Either way TvZ didn't need be changed. TvP is misleading, it's still a terrible matchup. Oh well. Guess I'll just have to deal with TvT being my only good matchup now.
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The fungal nerf is actually bad idea. Allowin units to get picked up in transport medivacs.
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On June 08 2012 08:30 Probe1 wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, speed reapers are faster than queens on creep. Due to their prodigious building destruction rate, they would have immense potential to cause havoc..
Except speedlings. By the time a third is going up there will be speedlings and they will catch reapers with ease on creep, giving you a tech -> deadend.
Yeah, see... people are too angry right now to think about options.
Reapers kill drones unbelievably fast. They build quick, and if their speed upgrade nerf was reverted, they'd be a decent harass option early. You also have the benefit of scouting and denying 3rd on top of it. They're also very powerful vs. lings and support a push quite well.
I think people glanced over my post, saw reapers, and immediately started thinking about how reapers suck instead of looking at what I said in the context of the rest of my post.
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On June 08 2012 08:18 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:52 Shiori wrote:
It just seems like they're making standard play more and more greedy by taking away every possible risk. Standard play for Zerg should not be taking a quick third and being totally safe with a few Queens. That's silly. That should be greedy play. When I, as a Protoss player, want to take a fast third, I need to get a lot of Sentries against Zerg, which cost a decent amount of gas. Even then, there are things the Zerg player can do to interfere and/or try to deny the third. This, in turn, means that Protoss players can't take 5 minute thirds because we'd never be able to defend them!
. You may have valid points, but this is not one of them. A) Zerg taking the fast 3rd is in response to YOUR greedy play and B) It should be hard to Protoss to take that 3rd base against Z, since 3 base Protoss is extremely powerful.
I was actually referring to TvZ and using Protoss taking a third as an example of how it should be to take a third against a Terran who doesn't CC first.
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EPT
