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On June 08 2012 07:15 Remi wrote:
If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push.
Mvp would have rolled over if he didn't get vortexed ;/
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On June 08 2012 07:15 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 06:48 -orb- wrote:On June 08 2012 06:21 zezamer wrote:On June 08 2012 06:04 -orb- wrote:
This is a gross overstatement and such a common misconception.
Protoss has an advantage in the lategame PvT, but it is more like a 60% advantage than the 100% newbies on forums make it out to be. So could you give me couple games from last months where terran wins max engagement so I could study them ? Sorry I'm on a cell phone in france atm, cant do ur research for u. A good example to look at is MMA's run thru the starswar korean qualifier. He has historically been unbelievably weak in tvp compared to his tvz and tvt, yet he beats the likes of squirtle, creatr, etc. In fact the creator/mma series was one of the bezt tvp series I have seen in a long time perhaps only second to mvp/squirtle gsl finals (which also has some amazing macro game examples). I think there is no doubt that micromanagement at the very least is much harder for terran than for protoss in the lategame, but it is most certainly not insurmountable. It seems terrans are just now learning how they have to setup and force engagements in the lategame and use defensive planetaries to defend lategame protoss remaxes and zealot counterattacks. Before someone says "but mvp and mma are two of the best terrans!" (Which is laughable anyways given mma' past trouble with toss), keep in mind squirtle and creator are some of the best pvters in the world (hell creator recently took out the likes of maru/jjakji and squirtle stomped the shit out of amazing terrans like taeja/mkp) If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push.
Apparently you never actually watched the series, but thanks for your opinions on games you either havent watched or dont remember. If I remember correctly, the battlecruiser was the only legitimate macro game mvp.lost, and he was WAY ahead... the only reason he lost was not EMPing the mothership and allowing asuccessful archon toilet to go off... something inexcusable in tvp. I guarantee if you asked him he would admit it was fully his mistake allowing that to happen that lost him that particular game.
I havent watched the series again since they were broadcast live, but wasnt game 2 (which mvp won) completely standard macro game?
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On June 08 2012 07:20 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
Two weeks ago: Zerg is the weakest race, we have no ways of scouting, terran is imba, immortals imba.
Now: Zerg way OP, too good scouting, zerg unkillable, terran is crap. The problem with Zerg lies with the exponential nature of Spawn Larvae. Spawn Larvae makes Zerg incredibly difficult to balance: Zerg is very OP if it can't be easily killed by all-ins, and very UP if it can. As long as so much of Zerg's power is invested into this single mechanic, Zerg balance will continue to be very swingy because it will hinge upon a single aspect of Zerg's matchups (whether you can kill Zerg before it snowballs out of control). The solution: nerf Spawn Larvae so that Zerg's economy is more comparable with Terran/Protoss, and buff Zerg's unit quality to compensate.
That would be pretty much impossible to balance properly at this point. Tournaments would pretty much be pointless while they attempt to balance. We'll just have to wait until HotS and see if the new units can deal with the balance problems.
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On June 08 2012 07:20 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
Two weeks ago: Zerg is the weakest race, we have no ways of scouting, terran is imba, immortals imba.
Now: Zerg way OP, too good scouting, zerg unkillable, terran is crap. The problem with Zerg lies with the exponential nature of Spawn Larvae. Spawn Larvae makes Zerg incredibly difficult to balance: Zerg is very OP if it can't be easily killed by all-ins, and very UP if it can. As long as so much of Zerg's power is invested into this single mechanic, Zerg balance will continue to be very swingy because it will hinge upon a single aspect of Zerg's matchups (whether you can kill Zerg before it snowballs out of control). The solution: nerf Spawn Larvae so that Zerg's economy is more comparable with Terran/Protoss, and buff Zerg's unit quality to compensate.
^^ Good point. Actually, I think many will agree that much of the balance issue in SC2 lies within the macro mechanics of the 3 races. Sometimes MULEs are imba (early game, pull all your scvs but keep on making rines because you have mules), sometimes warpgate is imba (late game, instant 20+ units warp in whenever and wherever you want), sometimes spawn larvae is imba (early-midgame, Zerg can drone almost instantly to 3 base saturation)... all of these things are cool ideas, but they make the game very very difficult to balance, because each mechanic is so distinct.
If we truly wanted to balance this game, Blizzard would simply remove these silly mechanics and revert the game back to the more basic idea that BW ran off of; Zerg gets 3 larvae per hatch, Protoss has no warpgate, Terran has no mules. The drawback to this, of course, is simply that the game would feel less interesting and many people who are picking up the game for the first time would say "BW 1.1, this is oldschool and boring" and wouldn't play it.
I'm not saying that balance is impossible - but it's very difficult.
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On June 08 2012 07:25 -orb- wrote:
Apparently you never actually watched the series, but thanks for your opinions on games you either havent watched or dont remember. If I remember correctly, the battlecruiser was the only legitimate macro game mvp.lost, and he was WAY ahead... the only reason he lost was not EMPing the mothership and allowing asuccessful archon toilet to go off... something inexcusable in tvp. I guarantee if you asked him he would admit it was fully his mistake allowing that to happen that lost him that particular game.
I havent watched the series again since they were broadcast live, but werent games 1 and 2 (which mvp won) completely standard macro games?
Game 1 IIRC was him doing a two base, rax allin SCV pull. Game 2 I think he did a doom drop. I can't remember what happened game 3. I remember him trying a macro game on CK which was game 4 and he lost. Can't remember game 5. Game 6 was the BC stuff. Game 7 was him doing a proxy 2 rax allin.
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when i get back to sc2 from d3 i will get demoted no matter the current balance trend, so even as a terran, this does not really hit me that hard, and because i am not affected, i look forward what my terran progamer favorites will do ^.^
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On June 08 2012 07:25 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:15 Remi wrote:On June 08 2012 06:48 -orb- wrote:On June 08 2012 06:21 zezamer wrote:On June 08 2012 06:04 -orb- wrote:
This is a gross overstatement and such a common misconception.
Protoss has an advantage in the lategame PvT, but it is more like a 60% advantage than the 100% newbies on forums make it out to be. So could you give me couple games from last months where terran wins max engagement so I could study them ? Sorry I'm on a cell phone in france atm, cant do ur research for u. A good example to look at is MMA's run thru the starswar korean qualifier. He has historically been unbelievably weak in tvp compared to his tvz and tvt, yet he beats the likes of squirtle, creator, etc. In fact the creator/mma series was one of the bezt tvp series I have seen in a long time perhaps only second to mvp/squirtle gsl finals (which also has some amazing macro game examples). I think there is no doubt that micromanagement at the very least is much harder for terran than for protoss in the lategame, but it is most certainly not insurmountable. It seems terrans are just now learning how they have to setup and force engagements in the lategame and use defensive planetaries to defend lategame protoss remaxes and zealot counterattacks. Before someone says "but mvp and mma are two of the best terrans!" (Which is laughable anyways given mma' past trouble with toss), keep in mind squirtle and creator are some of the best pvters in the world (hell creator recently took out the likes of maru/jjakji and squirtle stomped the shit out of amazing terrans like taeja/mkp) If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push. Apparently you never actually watched the series, but thanks for your opinions on games you either havent watched or dont remember. If I remember correctly, the battlecruiser was the only legitimate macro game mvp.lost, and he was WAY ahead... the only reason he lost was not EMPing the mothership and allowing asuccessful archon toilet to go off... something inexcusable in tvp. I guarantee if you asked him he would admit it was fully his mistake allowing that to happen that lost him that particular game. I havent watched the series again since they were broadcast live, but werent games 1 and 2 (which mvp won) completely standard macro games?
Game 1 was a 6 minute base race (hellion runby from nat, rine drop in main, all while Squirtle was warping in off 4 gates at Mvp's natural). Game 2 was a macro game full of many mistakes from Squirtle (rallying his first immortal across the map into Mvp's natural? free kill? lol.) This mistake (along with others) were simply "nerve issues" as Tastosis called them, and ended up with Squirtle getting far behind early on... again, it was just another example of a Terran getting the better of a Protoss player in the early/mid game, which then let him take his advantage into the late game, where he absolutely crushed Squirtle.
Ultimately, Mvp won that series off of being more resistant to the nerves, not from outplaying Squirtle in the macro sense. Squirtle won every "standard" macro game.
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On June 08 2012 07:30 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:25 -orb- wrote:
Apparently you never actually watched the series, but thanks for your opinions on games you either havent watched or dont remember. If I remember correctly, the battlecruiser was the only legitimate macro game mvp.lost, and he was WAY ahead... the only reason he lost was not EMPing the mothership and allowing asuccessful archon toilet to go off... something inexcusable in tvp. I guarantee if you asked him he would admit it was fully his mistake allowing that to happen that lost him that particular game.
I havent watched the series again since they were broadcast live, but werent games 1 and 2 (which mvp won) completely standard macro games? Game 1 IIRC was him doing a two base, rax allin SCV pull. Game 2 I think he did a doom drop. I can't remember what happened game 3. I remember him trying a macro game on CK which was game 4 and he lost. Can't remember game 5. Game 6 was the BC stuff. Game 7 was him doing a proxy 2 rax allin.
I remember squirtle forcing base trades with silly warpins across the map.but i didn't remember a huge scv pull allin... wasnt mvp doing some pressure/harass? Aka standard macro tvp play
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Really wish people would wait until Code S ro32 finishes before crying.
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Seems way to premature to worry about anything balance wise.
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You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
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On June 08 2012 07:22 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:15 Remi wrote:On June 08 2012 06:48 -orb- wrote:On June 08 2012 06:21 zezamer wrote:On June 08 2012 06:04 -orb- wrote:
This is a gross overstatement and such a common misconception.
Protoss has an advantage in the lategame PvT, but it is more like a 60% advantage than the 100% newbies on forums make it out to be. So could you give me couple games from last months where terran wins max engagement so I could study them ? Sorry I'm on a cell phone in france atm, cant do ur research for u. A good example to look at is MMA's run thru the starswar korean qualifier. He has historically been unbelievably weak in tvp compared to his tvz and tvt, yet he beats the likes of squirtle, creator, etc. In fact the creator/mma series was one of the bezt tvp series I have seen in a long time perhaps only second to mvp/squirtle gsl finals (which also has some amazing macro game examples). I think there is no doubt that micromanagement at the very least is much harder for terran than for protoss in the lategame, but it is most certainly not insurmountable. It seems terrans are just now learning how they have to setup and force engagements in the lategame and use defensive planetaries to defend lategame protoss remaxes and zealot counterattacks. Before someone says "but mvp and mma are two of the best terrans!" (Which is laughable anyways given mma' past trouble with toss), keep in mind squirtle and creator are some of the best pvters in the world (hell creator recently took out the likes of maru/jjakji and squirtle stomped the shit out of amazing terrans like taeja/mkp) If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push. You're absolutely correct. However, a big lesson that we learned from game 5 in that series was this; a maxed out army of Ghost + BC will win IF you can emp the mothership and the templar. However, if the vortex goes down, followed by feedbacks on the BC's, then Terran will get destroyed. This is similar to the mid game TvP, as well. If Protoss is allowed to get the engagement they want, they will always win. But if Terran is able to preemptively cripple their army beforehand, they stand a chance. The pressure is on the Terran to pull this off, however, and it's a lot easier said than done. And that's why Protoss USUALLY wins after they get splash damage on the field.
Actually those two scenarios aren't the same thing at all. There's many ways for a Protoss player to win a midgame engagement against Terran. There is exactly 1 way to beat mass BCs, and that's with Archon Toilet.
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On June 08 2012 07:35 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:30 Orracle wrote:On June 08 2012 07:25 -orb- wrote:
Apparently you never actually watched the series, but thanks for your opinions on games you either havent watched or dont remember. If I remember correctly, the battlecruiser was the only legitimate macro game mvp.lost, and he was WAY ahead... the only reason he lost was not EMPing the mothership and allowing asuccessful archon toilet to go off... something inexcusable in tvp. I guarantee if you asked him he would admit it was fully his mistake allowing that to happen that lost him that particular game.
I havent watched the series again since they were broadcast live, but werent games 1 and 2 (which mvp won) completely standard macro games? Game 1 IIRC was him doing a two base, rax allin SCV pull. Game 2 I think he did a doom drop. I can't remember what happened game 3. I remember him trying a macro game on CK which was game 4 and he lost. Can't remember game 5. Game 6 was the BC stuff. Game 7 was him doing a proxy 2 rax allin. I remember squirtle forcing base trades with silly warpins across the map.but i didn't remember a huge scv pull allin... wasnt mvp doing some pressure/harass? Aka standard macro tvp play
Hmmm, possibly I was thinking about the match previous to MVP vs Squirtle.
Now that I think about it, I might have missed the first 1-2 games of MVP vs Squirtle.
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On June 08 2012 07:30 Orracle wrote:
Game 1 IIRC was him doing a two base, rax allin SCV pull. Game 2 I think he did a doom drop. I can't remember what happened game 3. I remember him trying a macro game on CK which was game 4 and he lost. Can't remember game 5. Game 6 was the BC stuff. Game 7 was him doing a proxy 2 rax allin.
Your describing some kind of combination of Mvp vs Squirtle/parting
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On June 08 2012 07:38 Mjolnir wrote:
You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
What are you talking about lol. None of those change the zvt midgame. Fast Reaper would still be garbage thanks to five range queen. Midgame is still the same.
They put Zerg "in a position to respond to your play" by giving near perfect information of what terran is doing in early midgame. And then Zerg can optimally defend. Thanks to spawn larvae Zerg will have more than enough units to defend given perfect scouting, and afterwards superior econ.
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On June 08 2012 07:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:22 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 08 2012 07:15 Remi wrote:On June 08 2012 06:48 -orb- wrote:On June 08 2012 06:21 zezamer wrote:On June 08 2012 06:04 -orb- wrote:
This is a gross overstatement and such a common misconception.
Protoss has an advantage in the lategame PvT, but it is more like a 60% advantage than the 100% newbies on forums make it out to be. So could you give me couple games from last months where terran wins max engagement so I could study them ? Sorry I'm on a cell phone in france atm, cant do ur research for u. A good example to look at is MMA's run thru the starswar korean qualifier. He has historically been unbelievably weak in tvp compared to his tvz and tvt, yet he beats the likes of squirtle, creator, etc. In fact the creator/mma series was one of the bezt tvp series I have seen in a long time perhaps only second to mvp/squirtle gsl finals (which also has some amazing macro game examples). I think there is no doubt that micromanagement at the very least is much harder for terran than for protoss in the lategame, but it is most certainly not insurmountable. It seems terrans are just now learning how they have to setup and force engagements in the lategame and use defensive planetaries to defend lategame protoss remaxes and zealot counterattacks. Before someone says "but mvp and mma are two of the best terrans!" (Which is laughable anyways given mma' past trouble with toss), keep in mind squirtle and creator are some of the best pvters in the world (hell creator recently took out the likes of maru/jjakji and squirtle stomped the shit out of amazing terrans like taeja/mkp) If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push. You're absolutely correct. However, a big lesson that we learned from game 5 in that series was this; a maxed out army of Ghost + BC will win IF you can emp the mothership and the templar. However, if the vortex goes down, followed by feedbacks on the BC's, then Terran will get destroyed. This is similar to the mid game TvP, as well. If Protoss is allowed to get the engagement they want, they will always win. But if Terran is able to preemptively cripple their army beforehand, they stand a chance. The pressure is on the Terran to pull this off, however, and it's a lot easier said than done. And that's why Protoss USUALLY wins after they get splash damage on the field. Actually those two scenarios aren't the same thing at all. There's many ways for a Protoss player to win a midgame engagement against Terran. There is exactly 1 way to beat mass BCs, and that's with Archon Toilet.
I just tested it in the Sandbox unit tester to make sure, but it looks like it's that Toss still comes out on top, as long as upgrades are even and toss has a good amount of feedback/voidray/archon (though obviously the battle isn't nearly as one-sided as when vortex is used).
I think it comes down very much to ghost control and getting those emp's off. Successful emp's will absolutely destroy toss late game when BC's are in play, but failure to emp will result in Toss being able to still win engagements.
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On June 08 2012 07:49 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:38 Mjolnir wrote:
You need to stop asking for Zerg or Protoss nerfs.
That's just contributing to the decline of this game.
You need to start asking for your race to be reverted to what it was like prior and/or other buffs. Example: if you nerf fungal (i.e. make it a slow) you gimp it for ZvZ and ZvP.
Terran is now struggling with a number of issues that are the result of prior nerfs - not recent Zerg buffs. Seriously. Imagine your rax first, or fast reapers, or agressive mid-game plays vs. the current Zerg. It would be MUCH more balanced.
Zerg could fight an equal early game tactical battle with queens and it'd come down to who microed and macroed better during it all. Zerg scouting (which really did suck in the past) now puts them in a position to respond to your play, rather than you winning via a build order win. If you had the tools you had months ago (plus original siege tanks) TvZ would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
Stop asking for nerfs to others. That's part of the problem that got you where you are. The game doesn't benefit from incessant nerfs. What we need are developers who have the balls to say "OK, so this didn't work and we screwed up. Let's return this functionality to these units and see what happens."
What are you talking about lol. None of those change the zvt midgame. Fast Reaper would still be garbage thanks to five range queen. Midgame is still the same. They put Zerg "in a position to respond to your play" by giving near perfect information of what terran is doing in early midgame. And then Zerg can optimally defend. Thanks to spawn larvae Zerg will have more than enough units to defend given perfect scouting, and afterwards superior econ.
It just seems like they're making standard play more and more greedy by taking away every possible risk. Standard play for Zerg should not be taking a quick third and being totally safe with a few Queens. That's silly. That should be greedy play. When I, as a Protoss player, want to take a fast third, I need to get a lot of Sentries against Zerg, which cost a decent amount of gas. Even then, there are things the Zerg player can do to interfere and/or try to deny the third. This, in turn, means that Protoss players can't take 5 minute thirds because we'd never be able to defend them!
So basically I agree with Kawaii; if you remove all the risks from playing greedy, then it's not playing greedy anymore. Considering the advice Zergs have always given is to punish them when they're greedy, this should be a pretty big warning sign to everyone.
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On June 08 2012 07:22 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 07:15 Remi wrote:
If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push. Mvp would have rolled over if he didn't get vortexed ;/
Yes if you look at it objectively instead of having bias, squirtle barely managed to outplay MVP and take the win. An emp, on mothership or a yamato would have ensured squirtle's loss. (EMP being the easier solution since you essentially can't miss the mothership.
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Terrans just need to figure out new stuff like Zerg did! Let the metagame evolve as Blizzard did with Zerg.
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On June 08 2012 08:12 kckkryptonite wrote:
Terrans just need to figure out new stuff like Zerg did! Let the metagame evolve as Blizzard did with Zerg.
Except Terran don't really have that much more to "figure out".
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EPT
