EPTTLPD Winrates May 2012 - Page 26
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
I would say, the queen buff was a bit excessive, maybe tone the range back down by 1. Overlord speed increase was healthy. The balance would be looking okey dokey then in my opinion. (it has always been my opinion to reduce total duration or damage from storm just a tad. But I know that no one is going to give any thought to that idea so w/e) | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:32 vnlegend wrote: Well, when MKP is getting beat by random fodder zergs, you know it's hard to TvZ. When MMA says TvZ is hard, you know it's freaking hard T_T | ||
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WHyTePoWeR
Korea (South)132 Posts
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
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-Kira
352 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:21 zezamer wrote: So could you give me couple games from last months where terran wins max engagement so I could study them ? Sorry I'm on a cell phone in france atm, cant do ur research for u. A good example to look at is MMA's run thru the starswar korean qualifier. He has historically been unbelievably weak in tvp compared to his tvz and tvt, yet he beats the likes of squirtle, creator, etc. In fact the creator/mma series was one of the bezt tvp series I have seen in a long time perhaps only second to mvp/squirtle gsl finals (which also has some amazing macro game examples). I think there is no doubt that micromanagement at the very least is much harder for terran than for protoss in the lategame, but it is most certainly not insurmountable. It seems terrans are just now learning how they have to setup and force engagements in the lategame and use defensive planetaries to defend lategame protoss remaxes and zealot counterattacks. Before someone says "but mvp and mma are two of the best terrans!" (Which is laughable anyways given mma' past trouble with toss), keep in mind squirtle and creator are some of the best pvters in the world (hell creator recently took out the likes of maru/jjakji and squirtle stomped the shit out of amazing terrans like taeja/mkp) | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:48 -orb- wrote: A good example to look at is MMA's run thru the starswar korean qualifier. He has historically been unbelievably weak in tvp compared to his tvz and tvt, yet he beats the likes of squirtle, creator, etc. In fact the creator/mma series was one of the bezt tvp series I have seen in a long time perhaps only second to mvp/squirtle gsl finals (which also has some amazing macro game examples). Thanks, I'll try to find those games | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
I just checked and the starswar games are not on youtube (yet... hopefully), and u have to be a subscriber to esvision on twitch.tv to watch the vods. Sorry  bug @esvdiamond to let u know when they are available imo.Some seriously sick vods in there... mma vs mkp was a truly epic tvt in the most honest sense of the word | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Now: Zerg way OP, too good scouting, zerg unkillable, terran is crap. | ||
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HTOMario
United States439 Posts
On June 08 2012 07:05 Salteador Neo wrote: Two weeks ago: Zerg is the weakest race, we have no ways of scouting, terran is imba, immortals imba. Now: Zerg way OP, too good scouting, zerg unkillable, terran is crap. Zerg wasn't the weakest race 2 weeks ago. | ||
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CCAA
Germany78 Posts
- if the terran expands with 1rax 1depot into CC i play eco-banelingbust at 5:45-6.15 - if he does sth else i take my third before gas and build 4-6 Queens :> If your read is good u can held everything off. Just good Creepspread and Lings needed. vs Protoss it is confortable too. You can build some more Queens and you are save against Voids or Gateway pressure (1Queen=150Minerals=1Spinecrawler! :D:D:D:D:D) Terran was the hardest race for a long time, but now its unplayable against ok opponents. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
I hope we dont have to wait for HOTS for further balance action to be taken. | ||
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ActionpointTV
60 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:48 -orb- wrote: Sorry I'm on a cell phone in france atm, cant do ur research for u. A good example to look at is MMA's run thru the starswar korean qualifier. He has historically been unbelievably weak in tvp compared to his tvz and tvt, yet he beats the likes of squirtle, creator, etc. In fact the creator/mma series was one of the bezt tvp series I have seen in a long time perhaps only second to mvp/squirtle gsl finals (which also has some amazing macro game examples). I think there is no doubt that micromanagement at the very least is much harder for terran than for protoss in the lategame, but it is most certainly not insurmountable. It seems terrans are just now learning how they have to setup and force engagements in the lategame and use defensive planetaries to defend lategame protoss remaxes and zealot counterattacks. Before someone says "but mvp and mma are two of the best terrans!" (Which is laughable anyways given mma' past trouble with toss), keep in mind squirtle and creator are some of the best pvters in the world (hell creator recently took out the likes of maru/jjakji and squirtle stomped the shit out of amazing terrans like taeja/mkp) If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:31 StarStrider wrote: In my opinion, the queen range is a little strong, especially in TvZ. It easily preemptively shuts down the most viable ways that Terran have to keep Zerg from getting super greedy. Assuming they scout properly, there isn't much a Terran can throw at them that they don't already have excess queens in place to handle while they react with unit larva. I would say, the queen buff was a bit excessive, maybe tone the range back down by 1. Overlord speed increase was healthy. The balance would be looking okey dokey then in my opinion. (it has always been my opinion to reduce total duration or damage from storm just a tad. But I know that no one is going to give any thought to that idea so w/e) I must humbly disagree. At first, I felt the same way as you - I felt that an overlord speed buff made sense, but the queen range made them seem too strong. But as I've had more experience playing TvZ and PvZ these days, I feel inclined to agree with those who were wiser than me when the patch first came out - the real problem here is the overlord speed. As Kawaiirice recently posted (see spoiler in OP for reference), the main problem is that Zerg can scout everything that their opponent will do in the early/early mid game and then react to it perfectly. There no longer exists the possibility to catch Zerg off guard, which is the event that needs to take place in order to pressure them. If you were to take away one buff, I would choose to remove the overlord speed, as I feel that would let Terran and Protoss be able to even out the mid game with early game pressure once again. If you removed the Queen buff but kept the Overlord speed, Zerg could still see your attack coming far in advance, and would still have ample time to create a handful of roaches or a spore crawler or two in order to counter perfectly the pressure that is incoming. I hope Blizzard can fix this before HOTS comes out, if they decide to move on now they're going to leave WOL a very broken game. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On June 08 2012 07:05 Salteador Neo wrote: Two weeks ago: Zerg is the weakest race, we have no ways of scouting, terran is imba, immortals imba. Now: Zerg way OP, too good scouting, zerg unkillable, terran is crap. The problem with Zerg lies with the exponential nature of Spawn Larvae. Spawn Larvae makes Zerg incredibly difficult to balance: Zerg is very OP if it can't be easily killed by all-ins, and very UP if it can. As long as so much of Zerg's power is invested into this single mechanic, Zerg balance will continue to be very swingy because it will hinge upon a single aspect of Zerg's matchups (whether you can kill Zerg before it snowballs out of control). The solution: nerf Spawn Larvae so that Zerg's economy is more comparable with Terran/Protoss, and buff Zerg's unit quality to compensate. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On June 08 2012 07:15 Remi wrote: If memory serves me right, I remember that every heavy macro game in MVP vs Squirtle finale was won be Squirtle, including game, where MVP had 20 battlecruisers and 3rd of Squirtle army was on an island, all MVP victory's was early game cheese or mid game push. You're absolutely correct. However, a big lesson that we learned from game 5 in that series was this; a maxed out army of Ghost + BC will win IF you can emp the mothership and the templar. However, if the vortex goes down, followed by feedbacks on the BC's, then Terran will get destroyed. This is similar to the mid game TvP, as well. If Protoss is allowed to get the engagement they want, they will always win. But if Terran is able to preemptively cripple their army beforehand, they stand a chance. The pressure is on the Terran to pull this off, however, and it's a lot easier said than done. And that's why Protoss USUALLY wins after they get splash damage on the field. | ||
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