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On June 08 2012 04:46 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:44 Heavenlee wrote:On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran. Yeah, because it's not like protoss had it's fair share of big nerfs then Blizzard looked at the imbalance and gave protoss some buffs. You're right, for some arbitrary reason Blizzard is just completely disgusted at your race and potentially even hates you personally. Because Blizzard are such evil haters they will in fact nerf Terran again and again until no one can win except MKP and MVP versus diamond level zergs. Well if you look at some of the latest very unreasonable balancing changes, you could truely get the idea, that the blizz balancing team hates terran....  especially with the commentary from David Kim in addition!
The only unreasonable thing IMO was the queen change making the necessary hellion harass worthless. Snipe was pretty ridiculous and terran can still win TvZ lategame on equal footing, but they are unable to get on equal footing due to openers nowadays and that seems like the problem. Many of the other changes were also necessary, you guys are extremely quick to forget how dominant terran was---and more recently than you probably remember. No doubt there will be some sort of buff/nerfs going on but at the time terran was on a ridiculous rampage. And it's funny, because people used to say how much David Kim loved terran over every other race and how he always wore a terran logo. People nowadays say "only a couple people like Polt, MVP, MKP can stand against some zergs...it was the same way throughout the game for PvT, PvZ, ZvT when only maybe DongRaeGu was doing good, like a couple weeks ago only Stephano and DRG could apparently beat protoss, etc.
Think back more than 30 days.
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On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran.
You buff the race that's losing (or nerf the race that's winning). Historically, Terran has been on top for nearly the entire lifespan of SC2. What do you think would have happened if Terran got continuously buffed- instead of nerfed- when they were already winning nearly everything and already had the best winrates against Protoss and Zerg? Go ahead and theorycraft for us. Explain why you would buff the strongest race.
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On June 08 2012 04:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran. You buff the race that's losing (or nerf the race that's winning). Historically, Terran has been on top for nearly the entire lifespan of SC2. What do you think would have happened if Terran got continuously buffed- instead of nerfed- when they were already winning nearly everything and already had the best winrates against Protoss and Zerg? Go ahead and theorycraft for us. Explain why you would buff the strongest race.
People's memory when it comes to this game = their last 10 ladder matches.
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On June 08 2012 00:23 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:01 KrazyTrumpet wrote:The whining in these threads always makes me giggle Mostly because of posts like this: On June 07 2012 23:59 JustTray wrote:
As usual, the stats are about 4-6 months behind the actual game.
Most Terrans believed the TvZ match was heavily favored before the latest patch due to the ridiculously huge maps that became more and more prevelant over the last 4 seasons.
Zerg has been the most powerful race for a long time. Now there's just no doubt. Small sample sizes (including Bo1 series!) are always amazing statistical foundations, right? XD I think someone said it's 200 games. Were you also saying this when the stats showed Terran up 55-45 mostly over the last year when the sample sizes were identical? The hypocrisy is astounding. Go ahead, use your statistics knowledge to show us the margin of error and why these numbers are not relevant. You won't though, becuase you can't. I play all three races at master level. I switched to Zerg when I realized they were the most OP a while ago. I don't have a bias, Zerg is my main now.
200 games of a bunch of different players. If it was 200 games of like, 3 players that would be something, but it's not lol
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On June 08 2012 04:44 ragz_gt wrote:This seems to be really vulnerable to 2 base timing / all in from zerg... interested in how it play out.
Almost everything that gives Terran a fast third and equivalent ups die to two base timings or allins too. Everything else seems to need to do some truly hardcore damage to capitalize or break even.
On June 08 2012 04:43 biology]major wrote:I have seen multiple qxc reps, and tried this myself and I will say it is complete luck. It is based on zerg not scouting the bunker being built outside, if he scouts it, few drones/lings pulled to stop it from going up and its completely shut down. Highly over exaggerated article there
I am disappoint if thats true. Maybe its map based?
I don't think the problem is really Terran openings, its simply the lack of midgame strategies. The things that were implemented to cover for weak queens and slow overlords just stack the deck now instead of providing safety nets. If Blizzard had put these buffs in the game BEFOREHAND, maybe reapers wouldn't be terrible. It'd actually be a logical and effective opening without the ridiculous strength of the 5 rax opening.
The nerfs to medivacs and blue flame hellions could also be rolled back (or at least the medivacs rolled back and the BF damage increased) because of the cheap availability and combinations of units that are faster and either outrange or outdeeps the units used in the push. It'd be more of a reward for good defense vs. the Terran pushes to hit three/four bases and crank out the T3 than just simply have it handed to the player for simply building units.
Of course, accusing Blizzard's balance team of being competent, logical, and methodical is totally unnecessary and probably wrong.
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I think the cost of the raven needs to be reduced, getting a decent amount of ravens when going mech is too hard. Not to mention that the raven is basicly a suicide unit and seeker missile takes 125 energy. Considering the ghost has become useless in TvZ (who's gonna pay 200/100 to snipe 2 infestors? lol) Blizzard needs to buff our other spellcaster.
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On June 08 2012 03:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
I wonder how much of that TvZ graph has to do with Symbol.
If the trend continues in June I wouldn't be surprised if that queen change was reversed. It really was in my opinion a perfect example of fixing a problem that required a scalpel with a sledgehammer.
Those games in GSTL didn't count for last month. There's 9-0 ZvT worth of data left out of the graph. If Symbol, Losira, Byul, Moon keep killing everyone, Terran will have less than 20% win rate in that MU.
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TvP is a mostly fine and balanced matchup, in my opinion. I play both T and P, so no bias there. P does have an advantage in their late-game production via warpgates, but aside from that, I find that the more skilled player often wins.
I also think PvZ is alright. It's only TvZ that I think needs a look at. Broodlords are pretty difficult for the Terran right now. There is no easy way to deal with them, but that wouldn't be a huge problem except that here are very few options for putting pressure on the Zerg aside from going all-in. It's simply too risky to siege-push across the map unless you are maxed or already have an advantage. Hellions and Banshees are both easily shut down by the current standard of building 4 queens early-game. Drops can't always guarantee damage if the Zerg is on the ball. So right now I feel like TvZ is a bit of a gamble on whether my drops do damage or not.
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On June 08 2012 02:04 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 01:54 -orb- wrote:
-warp gate warpin time scales based on distance to gateway executing warpin (i.e. instant right nex to warpgate but ~20 secs across large map instead of flat 5 secs). Would also need the ability to cancel warpins. Would still allow cool proxy play for faster warpins (wont be implemented most likely because it would be too confusing to newbies)
-gateway build time of units made 5 secs shorter than cooldown time on warpgate of same unit to give incentive/reason to switch back when playing defensively (wont be implemented maybe cause too difficult for newbies??? Dunno pretty lame excuse)
-infestor fungal immobilize change to 90% slow but range increased to 10 and duration increased
-mule change to not be able to mine from the same mineral patch as an scv at the same time
Just some thoughts off the top of my head to make sc2 more balanced/a better spectator esport. I'm sure there are others but this is what came to mind right now
I've always thought that warp in time based on distance would fix most Protoss warp gate issues, especially in combination with gateways producing faster. Hopefully it crosses Blizzards mind. There's a very small difference between a 90% slow and a root. Marines would move at about 1/4th the speed of a pre-patch overlord while affected by fungal. And what would be the point of mules if they couldn't be made to mine the same mineral patch?
I think you would be absolutely shocked af the difference a 90% slow.fungal would make. Marines would be able to.be slowly split to.have many escape the second fungal. Stacked air units would have the opportunity to spread some. Situations like a medivac drop caught by fungal would allow the medivac to slowly escape fungal range in some situations depending on range. Maybe 75% slow.instead but the actual numbers arent important, its just the fact hat it should be a slow instead of a full immobilize. Imagine the tension watching pro games wondering if a unit will get awY instead of "oh its fungaled guess that unit is dead nothing to see here no other.possible outcome"
Mules would barely lose functionality in that they still mine sooo much faster than scvs, but it would slightly limit terrans ability to sit on one base sometimes with extra orbital(s) with a higher mineral economy than is physically possible for p/z to achieve on one base.
The warp gate change is one I and many others have thought to be painfully obvious for months/years but it seems blizz would rather implement shitty bandaid solutions like fixing 4gate pvp by not letting units warp in on a ramp (which completely eliminates the possibility of any.map without a single ff sized ramp into the main from being remotely decent)
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On June 08 2012 04:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran. You buff the race that's losing (or nerf the race that's winning). Historically, Terran has been on top for nearly the entire lifespan of SC2. What do you think would have happened if Terran got continuously buffed- instead of nerfed- when they were already winning nearly everything and already had the best winrates against Protoss and Zerg? Go ahead and theorycraft for us. Explain why you would buff the strongest race.
I guess Blizzard didn't get your memo before buffing queen range and ol speed.
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Even if the overlord was reverted, it just means terran would have to rely on secretive tricky moves (i.e gimmicks) that relies on zerg not scouting it like before. That is not solid game play, with the queen buff with overlord buff, it's now more about solid game play & as the graphs show in this case, it's tough for terran vs zerg.
edit...i meant overlord, oops, in either case, i'm joeschmo
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On June 08 2012 05:12 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 02:04 Dalavita wrote:On June 08 2012 01:54 -orb- wrote:
-warp gate warpin time scales based on distance to gateway executing warpin (i.e. instant right nex to warpgate but ~20 secs across large map instead of flat 5 secs). Would also need the ability to cancel warpins. Would still allow cool proxy play for faster warpins (wont be implemented most likely because it would be too confusing to newbies)
-gateway build time of units made 5 secs shorter than cooldown time on warpgate of same unit to give incentive/reason to switch back when playing defensively (wont be implemented maybe cause too difficult for newbies??? Dunno pretty lame excuse)
-infestor fungal immobilize change to 90% slow but range increased to 10 and duration increased
-mule change to not be able to mine from the same mineral patch as an scv at the same time
Just some thoughts off the top of my head to make sc2 more balanced/a better spectator esport. I'm sure there are others but this is what came to mind right now
I've always thought that warp in time based on distance would fix most Protoss warp gate issues, especially in combination with gateways producing faster. Hopefully it crosses Blizzards mind. There's a very small difference between a 90% slow and a root. Marines would move at about 1/4th the speed of a pre-patch overlord while affected by fungal. And what would be the point of mules if they couldn't be made to mine the same mineral patch? I think you would be absolutely shocked af the difference a 90% slow.fungal would make. Marines would be able to.be slowly split to.have many escape the second fungal. Stacked air units would have the opportunity to spread some. Situations like a medivac drop caught by fungal would allow the medivac to slowly escape fungal range in some situations depending on range. Maybe 75% slow.instead but the actual numbers arent important, its just the fact hat it should be a slow instead of a full immobilize. Imagine the tension watching pro games wondering if a unit will get awY instead of "oh its fungaled guess that unit is dead nothing to see here no other.possible outcome" Mules would barely lose functionality in that they still mine sooo much faster than scvs, but it would slightly limit terrans ability to sit on one base sometimes with extra orbital(s) with a higher mineral economy than is physically possible for p/z to achieve on one base. The warp gate change is one I and many others have thought to be painfully obvious for months/years but it seems blizz would rather implement shitty bandaid solutions like fixing 4gate pvp by not letting units warp in on a ramp (which completely eliminates the possibility of any.map without a single ff sized ramp into the main from being remotely decent)
I really like this idea since allowing yourself to fungaled even once can be a death sentence if you are chain fungaled. The same idea applies to late game TvZ if you use Ravens, which, was once fungaled cannot cast (and note that fungal outranges HSM)
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On June 08 2012 04:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran. You buff the race that's losing (or nerf the race that's winning). Historically, Terran has been on top for nearly the entire lifespan of SC2. What do you think would have happened if Terran got continuously buffed- instead of nerfed- when they were already winning nearly everything and already had the best winrates against Protoss and Zerg? Go ahead and theorycraft for us. Explain why you would buff the strongest race.
Yup. Buff the losing race or nerf the winning race. The problem is that Blizzard does both, at the same time.... multiple times over.
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On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
a solid 61%-39% winrate for zvt in korea, what you have to count into that is that the buff only hit the last 10 days of may so june is gonna get even more affected by that which means tvz is the most imbalanced matchup in sc2 history right now
lmfao so that's why I've been losing so hard.
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On June 08 2012 05:12 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran. You buff the race that's losing (or nerf the race that's winning). Historically, Terran has been on top for nearly the entire lifespan of SC2. What do you think would have happened if Terran got continuously buffed- instead of nerfed- when they were already winning nearly everything and already had the best winrates against Protoss and Zerg? Go ahead and theorycraft for us. Explain why you would buff the strongest race. I guess Blizzard didn't get your memo before buffing queen range and ol speed.
The game was quite balanced before the Zerg buffs; they weren't far and away stronger than Terran and Protoss beforehand. It would have been much worse if Terran got majorly buffed when Terran was raping everything and their winrates were insane. But yes, the June graphs are probably going to be silly.
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On June 08 2012 04:52 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:46 TeeTS wrote:On June 08 2012 04:44 Heavenlee wrote:On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran. Yeah, because it's not like protoss had it's fair share of big nerfs then Blizzard looked at the imbalance and gave protoss some buffs. You're right, for some arbitrary reason Blizzard is just completely disgusted at your race and potentially even hates you personally. Because Blizzard are such evil haters they will in fact nerf Terran again and again until no one can win except MKP and MVP versus diamond level zergs. Well if you look at some of the latest very unreasonable balancing changes, you could truely get the idea, that the blizz balancing team hates terran.... especially with the commentary from David Kim in addition! The only unreasonable thing IMO was the queen change making the necessary hellion harass worthless. Snipe was pretty ridiculous and t erran can still win TvZ lategame on equal footing, but they are unable to get on equal footing due to openers nowadays and that seems like the problem.
So damn wrong. If a terran is on EVEN economy as the zerg, then broodlord infestor will win, unless the zerg fucks up. Broodlord infestor is the most cost efficiënt composition in this game.
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On June 08 2012 04:29 mEtRoSG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:27 Scootaloo wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 Geos13 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:19 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2012 03:11 Geos13 wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
tvz is the most imbalanced matchup in sc2 history right now
Sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere in the 20+ pages. Doesn't the Korean graph show the PvT has in fact three times been more imbalanced than current TvZ.(PvZ once being off by only 0.2%) I don't think past balance is important but I do feel you shouldn't make baseless sensational claims. Korea has the GSL and not much else. Protoss ripped through the GLS this season, so most of April was filled with really good protoss. Since the GSL spans 1 or 2 months, the tail end of the GSL can really throw the stats off for the month. I don't understand what this has to do with my post... OP claimed current TvZ MU at 39%-61% is most imbalanced in sc2 history I was just pointing out that TvP has in fact been 61.2-38.8 July 2011 62.2-37.8 Oct 2011 61.2-38.8 Mar 2012 All worse than the current TvZ MU QFT Dry your eyes terrans, it really isn't all that bad. the current winrate after the patch is 74% for zerg 
The graph is already just arbitrary points to give balance benchmarks(meaning the trend is more important than the actual value) but now you're just cherry picking the data for a time period that fits your whine.
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On June 08 2012 04:43 biology]major wrote:I have seen multiple qxc reps, and tried this myself and I will say it is complete luck. It is based on zerg not scouting the bunker being built outside, if he scouts it, few drones/lings pulled to stop it from going up and its completely shut down. Highly over exaggerated article there
I was gonna say, any standard 2 base zerg all in should rolle over that bunker and have an easy time with your unprotected base ;\
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On June 08 2012 05:12 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 08 2012 04:27 iTzSnypah wrote:
So this tread has turned into Terrans whining imba while the Protoss's and Zerg's say lets wait it out? Yeah I've seen this before, albeit rolls reversed. Don't worry its not like blizzard would actually buff Terran. You buff the race that's losing (or nerf the race that's winning). Historically, Terran has been on top for nearly the entire lifespan of SC2. What do you think would have happened if Terran got continuously buffed- instead of nerfed- when they were already winning nearly everything and already had the best winrates against Protoss and Zerg? Go ahead and theorycraft for us. Explain why you would buff the strongest race. I guess Blizzard didn't get your memo before buffing queen range and ol speed.
lol nice response
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On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
edit: 3cc also means creep gets spread all across the map at 14 minutes. l0l0l
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly.
Good points by kawai.
One thing I want to add: before the patch, the same problem was already there, but very few zergs knew about this: very fast third followed up by fast 4-5 roaches --> hellion pressure denied --> drone drone drone drone
--> make units --> kill 2 base push --> double expand
--> no 2 base push --> make drone drone drone
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EPT
