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On June 08 2012 03:34 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse. Don't compare Terran to Protoss >.>... Protoss can literally come back from any deficit in PvZ thanks to mothership/deathball. Even Terran mech is nowhere close to that potency. PvZ is even favored for toss in KR o.o..
Are you kidding me? What game are you playing/watching? You do realize TSL Polt is most infamous in TvZ for specifically coming back from deficits by just rallying 12-3 and 2 Siege tanks at a time? If Protoss loses their army once chances are they will lose the game because of how damn costly it is and how much time it costs to recreate, I'm sorry but if your Mothership dies chances are your going to be killed or severely hindered by time you can even think about getting a vortex up. The fact that your actually comparing the cost efficiency of marines to stalkers and sentries blows my mind, I really have to wonder if anyone on this forum even plays this game anymore....
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On June 07 2012 18:06 mEtRoSG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 18:04 Kaitokid wrote:
well in Korea every race has one strong and one bad matchup... its not just Terran. internationally its the same except Protoss has under 50 win% against both races. I'd say balance looks pretty good. are you capable of reading graphs? even on international lvl terran has the lowest winrate and is under 50% vs p and unter 45% vs z
For the first time ever, Terran is below 50% overall. Somehow this feels great. Protoss has been below 50% more times than it has been above 50%. Zerg has been above 50% the same amount it has been below 50%, overall. Everyone gets their turn.
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People who are moaning about balance issues are just lower league players. so either way you look at it you just need to get better and moaning wont solve anything.
But anyway terran will get nerfed in the next patch, what are we predicting? i think PF's could get nerfed next.
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On June 08 2012 03:24 Phays wrote:
Calm down, dont worry about winrates, they will nerf terran next patch.
But to be fair, terrans need to start either meching or mix for air into the unit comp to beat zerg hivetech and regarding the queen buff, it was to much imo aswell, but it is to early to judge it. Let few more weeks pass and it the problem still exists I am sure blizzard will do something about this even if it will take 4months to release the patch...
If a Terran mech he basically plays a big 150-200 supply push that hopes to kill the Zerg before he has enough Hive Units. Else will get killed by Bl/Infestor with a few support units . With Mech it is not possible to take more than 3 Bases on most Map . So once you get your army ready its basically all-in once you lose too much its gg no way to ever rebuild.
Air Units aren't that great to begin with ....
BC's are just a joke , Ravens spells are basically melee range, Banshees aren#t really useable lategame and well Vikings are pure AA.
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as a top 8 random mast:
1. zvt is now faceroll status
2. tvz is harder as fuck when it was already hard as fuck
3. i have no more compulsions to play terran anymore.i started as T and started playing R in november when this game became "balanced" at least in my opinion
4. no more confidence in blizzard's patching
5. thank fucking god it's not 50 energy on queens RIGHT YALL
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On June 08 2012 03:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse. its different because protoss late game has aoe i.e.: an archon toilet or colossus whereas our late game aoe is a raven that relies on the zerg having a seizure pre-engagement and having every bl clumped and not fungaling the ravens as they approach but regardless, late game tvz isn't so much the problem as we cannot solidly compete in the midgame (yet?). terran is still in "midgame" while zerg reaches late game. zerg just has much much more stuff than before.
Kawaii, i remember this one game on your stream a few months ago when you went ravens into lategame vs Z, and you seeker missiled 10 broodlords and you managed to kill 2-3 of them, it basically sums up how good ravens are.
My TvZ went from my super easy matchup with 10000 marines to dropping me from masters into diamond =( so sad, masters shouldnt be too hard to reach again, so many people in diamond are horrible, but this will be the 4th time, Im obviously doing something terribly wrong that I should fix.
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On June 08 2012 03:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse. its different because protoss late game has aoe i.e.: an archon toilet or colossus whereas our late game aoe is a raven that relies on the zerg having a seizure pre-engagement and having every bl clumped and not fungaling the ravens as they approach but regardless, late game tvz isn't so much the problem as we cannot solidly compete in the midgame (yet?). terran is still in "midgame" while zerg reaches late game. zerg just has much much more stuff than before.
I agree though I would even throw out the lategame BS "moment."
Like you say, when Zergs started getting a fairly harass free third we started seeing the sheer mass of zerg macro wailing away at Toss. Mutapacks the size of god, 3 base roach while the toss is getting up the tech to deal with it. The new maps with the more accessible third for toss against mutas was a partial solution. TvZ might be fundamentally broken because of how powerful the larva mechanic is with a safe super fast third.
Always wondered why zergs didn't like PvZ at all. Watching the first few minutes of a pre-patch ZvT versus a ZvP, I was always struck by the scrambling zergs had to do to stay alive or deal with moderate pressure compared to the relatively gentle openings in PvZ.
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Does anyone else feel sad that now once BW pros are switching to SC2 the game is worst state is has been.
I've been following sc2 for roughly 1.5 years, at the moment the game just seems little boring to watch. Players are nowadays insanely good but the game has become worse.
TvP
Once there was real macro games in the match up, both were somewhat even in late game. Tons of drops.
Now it's just T allin before 15mins or gets rolled by protoss army.
TvZ
Still the best match up by far. How match up that involved good muta control, counter attacks, splits, focus fire, low tech units, back and forth has turned into ling infestor turtle into deathball. MMA v DRG ?
PvZ has always been ****. Instead Roach hydra vs protoss deathball roll overs we have P 2base allins, Z roach maxes or mothership vs broodlord infestor deathball clashes.
TvT has always been enjoyable.
PvP has evolved from 4g v 4g to tech coinflip or war of the worlds
ZvZ seems to be ok
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On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
tvp 49,3% - 50,7%
tvz 45,1% - 54,9%
zvp 52,5% - 47,5%
Most balanced MU gets the most forum whining. Makes perfect sense.
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On June 08 2012 03:49 zezamer wrote:
Does anyone else feel sad that now once BW pros are switching to SC2 the game is worst state is has been.
I've been following sc2 for roughly 1.5 years, at the moment the game just seems little boring to watch. Players are nowadays insanely good but the game has become worse.
TvP
Once there was real macro games in the match up, both were somewhat even in late game. Tons of drops.
Now it's just T allin before 15mins or gets rolled by protoss army.
TvZ
Still the best match up by far. How match up that involved good muta control, counter attacks, splits, focus fire, low tech units, back and forth has turned into ling infestor turtle into deathball. MMA v DRG ?
PvZ has always been shit. Roach hydra vs protoss deathball roll overs have turned into P 2base allin, Z roach max or mothership vs broodlord infestor deathball clashes.
TvT has always been enjoyable.
PvP has turned from 4g v 4g to tech coinflip or war of the worlds
ZvZ seems to be ok
If it was a month or two ago, I would vehemently disagree. Now I think you're totally right. Especially WRT pvp. The DT builds all getting popular, the aggressive versions as well as the expand ones, have basically introduced a fuckton more variability and coinflip tech choice situations.
The game is relatively balanced, but also quite stale and predictable.
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On June 08 2012 03:50 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
tvp 49,3% - 50,7%
tvz 45,1% - 54,9%
zvp 52,5% - 47,5%
Most balanced MU gets the most forum whining. Makes perfect sense.
TvP is not the win rate that's messed up, it's that basically TvTime to see if can kill P before both Col and Storm
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At least TvT still exists
so glorious
so fair
so beautiful
i love knowing he can only make 1 scv per 17 sec or w/e it is, and that he can only make the units i can make.
fairren vs fairren
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On June 08 2012 04:01 c0sm0naut wrote:
At least TvT still exists
so glorious
so fair
so beautiful
i love knowing he can only make 1 scv per 17 sec or w/e it is, and that he can only make the units i can make.
fairren vs fairren
And you find proxy rauder on your ramp lol
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On June 08 2012 03:50 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
tvp 49,3% - 50,7%
tvz 45,1% - 54,9%
zvp 52,5% - 47,5%
Most balanced MU gets the most forum whining. Makes perfect sense.
Most people on the forums are trying to play macro games to improve at the game, rather than allining vs protoss every game. We have a lot of trouble vs protoss lategame, which is why we are complaining. On one hand, we are the ones hurting ourself by not winning when we have the advantage, but on the other hand if our allins get patched out like they do every 2 months we are forced to either learn new ones or macro game.
Basically we want to play macro terran but its hard =(
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On June 08 2012 04:03 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 04:01 c0sm0naut wrote:
At least TvT still exists
so glorious
so fair
so beautiful
i love knowing he can only make 1 scv per 17 sec or w/e it is, and that he can only make the units i can make.
fairren vs fairren And you find proxy rauder on your ramp lol
qft. every CK
every CK game
edit: although last night i beat proxy 2 rax marauders ( he knows i dont scout) unscouted with hellions + marines hehe. he was lining those marauders up
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wow.....so TVP is balanced now?
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lore wise zerg are the strongest race so why shouldn't they be the strongest in multiplayer?
+ Show Spoiler +just kidding, queen buff should be retracted IMO
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On June 08 2012 03:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse. its different because protoss late game has aoe i.e.: an archon toilet or colossus whereas our late game aoe is a raven that relies on the zerg having a seizure pre-engagement and having every bl clumped and not fungaling the ravens as they approach but regardless, late game tvz isn't so much the problem as we cannot solidly compete in the midgame (yet?). terran is still in "midgame" while zerg reaches late game. zerg just has much much more stuff than before.
kawaiirice have you guys tried mech? theoretically, if you play perfect with mech, you should never lose (unless im completely wrong) but obv its kinda hard to play perfect. i feel like mech/raven would be super sick and i'd like to see it when played well
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On June 08 2012 04:11 Xarow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse. its different because protoss late game has aoe i.e.: an archon toilet or colossus whereas our late game aoe is a raven that relies on the zerg having a seizure pre-engagement and having every bl clumped and not fungaling the ravens as they approach but regardless, late game tvz isn't so much the problem as we cannot solidly compete in the midgame (yet?). terran is still in "midgame" while zerg reaches late game. zerg just has much much more stuff than before. kawaiirice have you guys tried mech? theoretically, if you play perfect with mech, you should never lose (unless im completely wrong) but obv its kinda hard to play perfect. i feel like mech/raven would be super sick and i'd like to see it when played well
what theory?
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I dont really understand how such a significant change goes live with only some garbage data collected on a custom map as their justification.
Makes about as much sense as balancing around bronze-diamond data instead of just gm level.
OH WAIT LOL
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EPT
