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On June 08 2012 03:11 Geos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
tvz is the most imbalanced matchup in sc2 history right now
Sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere in the 20+ pages. Doesn't the Korean graph show the PvT has in fact three times been more imbalanced than current TvZ.(PvZ once being off by only 0.2%) I don't think past balance is important but I do feel you shouldn't make baseless sensational claims.
Korea has the GSL and not much else. Protoss ripped through the GLS this season, so most of April was filled with really good protoss. Since the GSL spans 1 or 2 months, the tail end of the GSL can really throw the stats off for the month.
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Balance looks GREAT! Just need to nerf Terran a few more times!
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They better reduce the bunker build time soon. 
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On June 08 2012 03:17 Xarow wrote:
the statistics only look this bad because of when the patch hit relative to when these winrates were released. terran will adjust, the queen buff didn't hurt them too much and its honestly not that big of a deal
Hehe zergs are so reassuring. Actually it's getting worse and worse, as the GSTL has shown.
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On June 08 2012 03:17 Xarow wrote:
the statistics only look this bad because of when the patch hit relative to when these winrates were released. terran will adjust, the queen buff didn't hurt them too much and its honestly not that big of a deal
I think it's surprisingly hard hitting. It's not unbeatable and terrans will adjust, sure. However, it makes every current significantly worse.
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TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
edit: 3cc also means creep gets spread all across the map at 14 minutes. l0l0l
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly.
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Calm down, dont worry about winrates, they will nerf terran next patch.
But to be fair, terrans need to start either meching or mix for air into the unit comp to beat zerg hivetech and regarding the queen buff, it was to much imo aswell, but it is to early to judge it. Let few more weeks pass and it the problem still exists I am sure blizzard will do something about this even if it will take 4months to release the patch...
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No amount of adjusting will save TvZ, maybe a bunker build time increase will help but I doubt it.
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On June 08 2012 03:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:11 Geos13 wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
tvz is the most imbalanced matchup in sc2 history right now
Sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere in the 20+ pages. Doesn't the Korean graph show the PvT has in fact three times been more imbalanced than current TvZ.(PvZ once being off by only 0.2%) I don't think past balance is important but I do feel you shouldn't make baseless sensational claims. Korea has the GSL and not much else. Protoss ripped through the GLS this season, so most of April was filled with really good protoss. Since the GSL spans 1 or 2 months, the tail end of the GSL can really throw the stats off for the month.
I don't understand what this has to do with my post...
OP claimed current TvZ MU at 39%-61% is most imbalanced in sc2 history
I was just pointing out that TvP has in fact been
61.2-38.8 July 2011
62.2-37.8 Oct 2011
61.2-38.8 Mar 2012
All worse than the current TvZ MU
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On June 08 2012 03:19 SupLilSon wrote:
Balance looks GREAT! Just need to nerf Terran a few more times!
I think just making scvs cost 100 minerals should be enough.
+ Show Spoiler +I know you're joking; I am too
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On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly.
This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse.
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Augh, i'm sorry but i really dont see a point of these graphs lol.
There are always a few different levels of players in tournaments, and so you have some top players like Stephano, Violet ripping through the MLG Spring arena. where DRG made it halfway through and Idra got raped at the start. This by itself would give about a much higher than 50% win rate for zergs. And that is only one tournament, add in the Red bull Battle grounds where Sheth went 1-2, Ret went 1-2 and ostojiy went 0-3. Pulling that extreamly high winrate for zerg down. but since stephano and violet went 3-0 and 2-1. and stephano ended up in third that keeps the zerg win rate above 50%
The Battlegrounds was heavily protoss saturated after the groups, With only Huk not making it out of the group play. This would sky rocket the protoss match up from being destroyed in MLG.
where there were a lot of not quite there terrans in the battle ground in Illusion, ganzi, lastshadow. who tank the terran win rate forcing Bomber to carry the terran win rate with him to the finals where he eventually lost as well.
I dont know exactly how to continue this post. BUT i'm trying to say that you have the same players playing in all the tournaments, you have 2-3 really good players of each race and it all comes down to who they face. If the top zergs face weaker terrans they will destroy them, and vice versa. which ultimately extremely sway the win rates to a point that you can't really look at these to show balance. But the level of the players and who exactly do they face.
Like if Stephano hits MMA early and loses, then zerg may have a really low win rate because if stephano had hit anyone else he could of torn through the event and met MMA in the finals before losing and keeps the win rate up.
These are just ending up being the same players over and over as the koreans go around and play at foreign and korean events. (MMA Bomber, MVP, MKP, Polt, MC, Naniwa, DRG, Leenock, Violet) Look at any big tournament in the world and most likely you will see at least one of these names. (Which is where these win rates come from xD)
Sorry for the horribly put together post :D I just hope my point gets through.
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On June 08 2012 03:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:09 s3rp wrote:On June 08 2012 03:06 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2012 03:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
I wonder how much of that TvZ graph has to do with Symbol.
If the trend continues in June I wouldn't be surprised if that queen change was reversed. It really was in my opinion a perfect example of fixing a problem that required a scalpel with a sledgehammer. I was going to say that Stephano is ruining the win rates of the other two races. Also, I don't know if the queen buff will be as huge as people say. Terrans have adapted before and will again. They have only recently stopped being the most winning race in SC2. Unless theres a unit combination out there everybody missed ( especially in early staged ) i don't see how to adapt. Watch the Koreans over the next two month, they new openings will appear or stronger follow ups to standard openings. PvZ have been doing this dance since SC2 came out. Protoss finds some sort of agression that works, zerg adapts to it and we invent new agression. We learn how to FFE on most maps, zerg learns how to break it. Protoss learn how to scout the build that breaks FFE, zerg starts to take a gasless fast 3rd base and protoss has to adapt to that.
TvX has done something similar since SC2 came out. Terrans finds some sort of aggression that works, Blizzard nerfs it. We learn how to do more macro oriented builds, Blizzard nerfs it. Terrans learn how to correctly play lategame, Blizzard nerfs it. Dat metagame.
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On June 08 2012 03:31 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:15 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2012 03:09 s3rp wrote:On June 08 2012 03:06 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2012 03:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
I wonder how much of that TvZ graph has to do with Symbol.
If the trend continues in June I wouldn't be surprised if that queen change was reversed. It really was in my opinion a perfect example of fixing a problem that required a scalpel with a sledgehammer. I was going to say that Stephano is ruining the win rates of the other two races. Also, I don't know if the queen buff will be as huge as people say. Terrans have adapted before and will again. They have only recently stopped being the most winning race in SC2. Unless theres a unit combination out there everybody missed ( especially in early staged ) i don't see how to adapt. Watch the Koreans over the next two month, they new openings will appear or stronger follow ups to standard openings. PvZ have been doing this dance since SC2 came out. Protoss finds some sort of agression that works, zerg adapts to it and we invent new agression. We learn how to FFE on most maps, zerg learns how to break it. Protoss learn how to scout the build that breaks FFE, zerg starts to take a gasless fast 3rd base and protoss has to adapt to that. TvX has done something similar since SC2 came out. Terrans finds some sort of aggression that works, Blizzard nerfs it. We learn how to do more macro oriented builds, Blizzard nerfs it. Terrans learn how to correctly play lategame, Blizzard nerfs it. Dat metagame. hahaha.
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On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse.
Don't compare Terran to Protoss >.>... Protoss can literally come back from any deficit in PvZ thanks to mothership/deathball. Even Terran mech is nowhere close to that potency. PvZ is even favored for toss in KR o.o..
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On June 08 2012 03:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:09 s3rp wrote:On June 08 2012 03:06 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2012 03:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
I wonder how much of that TvZ graph has to do with Symbol.
If the trend continues in June I wouldn't be surprised if that queen change was reversed. It really was in my opinion a perfect example of fixing a problem that required a scalpel with a sledgehammer. I was going to say that Stephano is ruining the win rates of the other two races. Also, I don't know if the queen buff will be as huge as people say. Terrans have adapted before and will again. They have only recently stopped being the most winning race in SC2. Unless theres a unit combination out there everybody missed ( especially in early staged ) i don't see how to adapt. Watch the Koreans over the next two month, they new openings will appear or stronger follow ups to standard openings. PvZ have been doing this dance since SC2 came out. Protoss finds some sort of agression that works, zerg adapts to it and we invent new agression. We learn how to FFE on most maps, zerg learns how to break it. Protoss learn how to scout the build that breaks FFE, zerg starts to take a gasless fast 3rd base and protoss has to adapt to that.
The thing is there is no opening right that doesn't put you behind economically like crazy or isn't save at all. If you hit the right opening you can still do well but its basically gambling because after the Queen is out there's no way to ever scout the main other than scan which is not a good idea unless you strongly feel a nasty push is coming.
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On June 08 2012 03:34 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse. Don't compare Terran to Protoss >.>... Protoss can literally come back from any deficit in PvZ thanks to mothership/deathball. Even Terran mech is nowhere close to that potency. PvZ is even favored for toss in KR o.o..
Haha, you really believe PvZ lategame is Protoss favored? That's goddamned hilarious man. Did time stop for you in early 2011, where turtling on 3 bases and a-moving with deathballs was how PvZ played out?
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On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse.
its different because protoss late game has aoe i.e.: an archon toilet or colossus
whereas our late game aoe is a raven that relies on the zerg having a seizure pre-engagement and having every bl clumped and not fungaling the ravens as they approach
but regardless, late game tvz isn't so much the problem as we cannot solidly compete in the midgame (yet?). terran is still in "midgame" while zerg reaches late game. zerg just has much much more stuff than before.
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On June 08 2012 03:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:27 Sabu113 wrote:On June 08 2012 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:
TvZ pre-patch used to be pretty good. Terran had various early-midgame pressure builds that could work without being scouted thx 2 nitropack overlord.
The problem now is that queens can literally deal with all light pressure builds, zergs are going up to 6 queens by default and overlords can scout pretty much everything, all while taking a fast third base.
Broadly, this means that 1base allins are absolutely terrible since everything gets scouted at like the 6 minute mark.
Zerg scouting at the 6-7 minute mark will scout and be able to adapt to any 2base pressure builds.
-nobody goes cloakshee anymore because it gets scouted and blocked so easily
-roach warren with some banes or just lingspam to infestors holds 2base pressure such as cs marine hellion, 2fact blue flame hellions, marine hellion medivac, and those terrible 2base 3 tank pushes or whatever
If zerg scouts 3 cc they can literally sddddddddddddd to 65+ off 4 lings and start hive at like 10-11 minutes. This means they hit late game faster than terran, where terran cannot have a late game fight and has to rely on counters.
3CC was viable pre-patch because of one crucial thing - zergs couldn't take early 3rd. Now zergs can make 2 more queens or roaches and defend all pressure from Terran if they scout. Now that Zerg can take early 3rd, trying to outmacro a Zerg results in zerg outmacroing you super hard (provided they see the CC). But we have to get a fast 3rd in some way since 2base pressure gets scouted so easily and 2base allins are flat out bad.
TLDR: zerg can scout and adapt to everything while having superior econ, and hits late game composition much faster as a result of the queen range, god scouting and new maphack known as creep spread thx 2 patch
Terran right now has to find some strong reliable 2base hard pressure build which doesn't commit and also gives them a
fast 3rd in order to compete in a macro game. I've tried some but those can be hard countered really badly. This sounds remarkably similar to protoss' approach to the matchup for better or for worse. its different because protoss late game has aoe i.e.: an archon toilet or colossus whereas our late game aoe is a raven that relies on the zerg having a seizure pre-engagement and having every bl clumped and not fungaling the ravens as they approach but regardless, late game tvz isn't so much the problem as we cannot solidly compete in the midgame (yet?). terran is still in "midgame" while zerg reaches late game. zerg just has much much more stuff than before.
That's the big point too.
Zerg can reach "late game" much sooner than Terrans can. This will likely always be the case just because of the way the two races work.
While it is possible for Terrans to compete with Zergs in the late game, a late game Zerg quite simply slaughters a midgame Terran army, especially if the upgrades aren't in the Terran's favor.
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PvZ is really depressing. I hope Zergs figure something out in the matchup soon.
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EPT
