EPTTLPD Winrates May 2012 - Page 25
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Armada Vega
Canada120 Posts
The queen change seems to have brought in the ability for zergs to get 3 base fast without drone damage, resulting in zergs getting to an unmanageable level for terrans. As we see in GSL, GSTL, korean zergs can get their 60 drones by 8mins+ and max on roach by 12-13, like Stephano's build against protoss. To already reach your desired drone level before 10mins, is more then protoss or terran can do econ wise. In the past, terran were able to stunt the drone levels and if done well could maintain even econs throughout the game. However, making many queens with almost no lings, results in zergs drone production being unaffected by any marines or helion or banshee pressure terrans try to do to stunt drone production or to delay third. This is only an observation, obviously I can mis-read things or not notice other details that are important. Perhaps there are new terran timings or builds that are making a difference. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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pallad
Poland1958 Posts
 , and its normal , because they balance game game FOR HOTS already.Game is pretty good balanced now anyway. | ||
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mcleod
Canada350 Posts
Make fungal slow spell ! I know this isnt the issue kawaiirice brought up, but overall for the matchup it would help alot and also just make it more interesting ( orb brought up good examples) | ||
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Lasbike
France2888 Posts
The queen buff range from 3 to 5 is clearly too much. And a good proof about that is that when it came out, Idra actually said something along the lines of "Hmm..That's good", instead of a usual "Useless, we'll keep losing", so I think that's saying a lot. | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On June 08 2012 05:10 boxturtle wrote: Those games in GSTL didn't count for last month. There's 9-0 ZvT worth of data left out of the graph. If Symbol, Losira, Byul, Moon keep killing everyone, Terran will have less than 20% win rate in that MU. Can't forget Life! The guy got 9 wins this season. Symbol, Losira, Byul, Moon, Life... who's next? | ||
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
WoL = terran expansion HotS = zerg expansion LotV = protoss expansion expect zerg nerf and protoss buffs in 1.5years. | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
On June 08 2012 05:32 Lasbike wrote: I'm a EU master zerg and I feel pretty bad for the terrans out there. I win the vast majority of my ZvTs and I think that, at equal skill (equal mmr), the zerg definitely wins. The queen buff range from 3 to 5 is clearly too much. And a good proof about that is that when it came out, Idra actually said something along the lines of "Hmm..That's good", instead of a usual "Useless, we'll keep losing", so I think that's saying a lot. yea the match up was a lot more fun and better before the patch i don't know why blizzard had to go and ruin it  | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On June 08 2012 05:27 Armada Vega wrote: I noticed protoss struggled a lot against zergs if they couldn't pressure or delay a zerg's third, zergs seemed to be unmanageable on 3base early. But in the past terran were always able to delay the third subsequently creating a more balanced back and forth game. The queen change seems to have brought in the ability for zergs to get 3 base fast without drone damage, resulting in zergs getting to an unmanageable level for terrans. As we see in GSL, GSTL, korean zergs can get their 60 drones by 8mins+ and max on roach by 12-13, like Stephano's build against protoss. To already reach your desired drone level before 10mins, is more then protoss or terran can do econ wise. In the past, terran were able to stunt the drone levels and if done well could maintain even econs throughout the game. However, making many queens with almost no lings, results in zergs drone production being unaffected by any marines or helion or banshee pressure terrans try to do to stunt drone production or to delay third. This is only an observation, obviously I can mis-read things or not notice other details that are important. Perhaps there are new terran timings or builds that are making a difference. you are right. The big problem is, there is no real opening that makes sense for terran. you see a lot of korean terrans try out banshees. But with zerg relying more on queens, banshees become just less effective. With nowadays 2 standard queens only for creepspread, you can't even deny creep with them... This opening seems to be worse than before, but where's the alternative? hellions are really shut down now. numbers of 2-6 hellions just have no impact on the creepspread. Higher numbers are a huge commitment for little gain, and even may fuck you up completely, when the zerg decides to got ultra fast muta (saw jinro vs life? ^^). I'm trying around with an old MKP build making 1rax expand into 3rax (techlab-reactor-reactor) marauder/combat shielded marine pressure and go into a 3rd base from there before teching up to tanks and medivacs. It seems quite effective on smaller maps like korhal or ohana, (or entombed close pos), but on large maps, it hits way to late, so this is only an option on small maps. On large maps, I have to admit that I have no idea how to pressure the zerg to prevent at least the creep from reaching your natural, before you are able to push out, while going for a fast 3rd. The big problem is, that without denying the creep, you absolutely don't stand a chance. Oncreep engagements just go way too well for the zerg. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
I think anyone reasonable and who plays the game can see that Blizzard overnerfed Ghosts' EMP/Snipe, and HSM is really good but if infestors can just fungle your Ravens before you can get the HSM off they are worthless. HSM range is a little too low because of fungle. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
anyways lol, international is pretty good, but then... korean BAM as usual xD wow zergs are owning terrans so hard now haha protoss still beating terran but only slightly and protoss is owning zerg o.o | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On June 08 2012 05:48 Esk23 wrote: I think buffing ghost EMP radius and buffing snipe so that it can be used vs zerg late game like it use to, not 45 snipe damage but maybe 35-40 and perhaps increasing HSM range will help Terran a lot in the late game against Zerg/Protoss. No one can deny Terran is weak against Zerg/Protoss in the late game and that needs to be addressed. I think anyone reasonable and who plays the game can see that Blizzard overnerfed Ghosts' EMP/Snipe, and HSM is really good but if infestors can just fungle your Ravens before you can get the HSM off they are worthless. HSM range is a little too low because of fungle. well you realize that T>P in Korea? | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
The problem is how TvP is played in Korea... basically it's kill P before both Storm/Col or die. | ||
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RyF
Austria508 Posts
2 rax ftw. since i started 2 rax again (was playing 95 % macor games) guess what? my winrate goes up from 20% to 40/50% again. the last all in that's viable. at least i am not getting as frustrated and hand a little bit over to the zergy fellows. seriously. good points by kiwi and huge props to zerg players who admit that it has become such an easy matchup. the fungle slow i a cute idea. but it won't change the huge problems like no rush until midgame for zerg. remove the queen range blizz and give tanks 60dmg. just my 2 cents. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:00 ragz_gt wrote: The problem is how TvP is played in Korea... basically it's kill P before both Storm/Col or die. This is a gross overstatement and such a common misconception. Protoss has an advantage in the lategame PvT, but it is more like a 60% advantage than the 100% newbies on forums make it out to be. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:02 RyF wrote: high master EU here. 2 rax ftw. since i started 2 rax again (was playing 95 % macor games) guess what? my winrate goes up from 20% to 40/50% again. the last all in that's viable. at least i am not getting as frustrated and hand a little bit over to the zergy fellows. seriously. good points by kiwi and huge props to zerg players who admit that it has become such an easy matchup. the fungle slow i a cute idea. but it won't change the huge problems like no rush until midgame for zerg. remove the queen range blizz and give tanks 60dmg. just my 2 cents. The fungal slow was only 1 of like 10 of my ideas to fix this game. There were queen nerfs listed as well. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:04 -orb- wrote: This is a gross overstatement and such a common misconception. Protoss has an advantage in the lategame PvT, but it is more like a 60% advantage than the 100% newbies on forums make it out to be. from what I have recently seen it's more like 80%  You see terrans win lategame TvP from time to time. Maru did it in his U&D for example. But the big problem is, there are only very few terrans out there, who achieve that (I think I've only seen it from MKP, Maru and Jjakji lately), while the numbers of protoss players, getting their deathball together to steamroll over the terran seem to be unlimited. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:04 -orb- wrote: This is a gross overstatement and such a common misconception. Protoss has an advantage in the lategame PvT, but it is more like a 60% advantage than the 100% newbies on forums make it out to be. So could you give me couple games from last months where terran wins max engagement so I could study them ? | ||
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