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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody. Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence. | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:01 brickrd wrote: if your mindset is already that everyone you play is a cheater then it's not hard to sit down for 2 hours and find a billion reasons to agree with yourself, it's called confirmation bias But that's not been his mindset, lately. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
Come on, it can't be worse than chemo. :r BTW nice to see you back on your feet, shoutcraft is worth for the accent and enthusiast alone ! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- On a more serious note, Winter did play on "monitored" live events, while his play isn't "progamer level" it was at least at the level of play you can expect on his stream (when not smurfing/drunk) or even better since he doesn't read chat at live event. You would expect a person that relies on hacks to get at least a significant diminution of performances during offline events. Although I would agree that he has not been on any that I noticed since RedBull last year and the relatively obscure Youmacon. Another thing he "could've" done would be to streamcheat, it would explain the fact he seems to be looking at the other monitor before making some moves. But I do not think so since he doesn't seem to hassle to find a stream before a match (although he may be discreet) and it's kinda hard to be so specific with clicks when you need to follow two "screens" and one of them has at least 10-15 seconds delay. And even if it was the case, I wouldn't consider streamcheating a real cheat since the streamer is deliberately showing his game without any protection (e.g. delay) and I think Winter can be a victim like anyone else who streams. To debunk that it could be nice to analyses replays of non-streamers, or at least games played while not streaming. As for the "proofs" Avilo gave, I do not want to scroll through a 2h video via the awful Twitch VOD system just to see them, and cannot watch the replays by lack of LotV. Therefor I'm inconclusive on it, but I would be glad if someone impartial and of authority, either a Blizzard representative or a known Hacker hunter in no way affiliated with Winter or Avilo, would take time to analyses the few replays involved. More so since the points seems to match the good evidence for hacks listed in the 1st hacker database. As it is I think the SPAM of evidences/counter-evidences and opinions is cluttering this thread or what seems like a battle of rosters. If I could suggest maybe make a separate thread for it (and maybe for a mod to move the relevant messages there) if you expect the arguments to continue. And finally please people keep it civilized, personal attacks or derogatory comments, even if it's against someone insufferable or an alleged hacker HAVE NO PLACE HERE. Or hell better, go flame on Reddit so you can collect those shinny "+1". :D Thank | ||
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neteX
Sweden285 Posts
On April 13 2015 07:58 sc2chronic wrote: you seem to have spammed dumb posts today in 3 other threads but talk in detail when youre in here.. Joined TL.net Sunday, 12th of April 2015 ok avilo wow u have made ur acc 3 years before me? buuuhuuuu ur so oldschool http://fragbite.se/user/42648/netex i made this acc "neteX" 2004 so stop being stupid and stop derailing this thread with ur negative attitude alright? you win nothing doing this shit. | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:11 varsovie wrote: Come on, it can't be worse than chemo. :r BTW nice to see you back on your feet, shoutcraft is worth for the accent and enthusiast alone ! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- On a more serious note, Winter did play on "monitored" live events, while his play isn't "progamer level" it was at least at the level of play you can expect on his stream (when not smurfing/drunk) or even better since he doesn't read chat at live event. You would expect a person that relies on hacks to get at least a significant diminution of performances during offline events. Although I would agree that he has not been on any that I noticed since RedBull last year and the relatively obscure Youmacon. Another thing he "could've" done would be to streamcheat, it would explain the fact he seems to be looking at the other monitor before making some moves. But I do not think so since he doesn't seem to hassle to find a stream before a match (although he may be discreet) and it's kinda hard to be so specific with clicks when you need to follow two "screens" and one of them has at least 10-15 seconds delay. And even if it was the case, I wouldn't consider streamcheating a real cheat since the streamer is deliberately showing his game without any protection (e.g. delay) and I think Winter can be a victim like anyone else who streams. To debunk that it could be nice to analyses replays of non-streamers, or at least games played while not streaming. As for the "proofs" Avilo gave, I do not want to scroll through a 2h video via the awful Twitch VOD system just to see them, and cannot watch the replays by lack of LotV. Therefor I'm inconclusive on it, but I would be glad if someone impartial and of authority, either a Blizzard representative or a known Hacker hunter in no way affiliated with Winter or Avilo, would take time to analyses the few replays involved. More so since the points seems to match the good evidence for hacks listed in the 1st hacker database. As it is I think the SPAM of evidences/counter-evidences and opinions is cluttering this thread or what seems like a battle of rosters. If I could suggest maybe make a separate thread for it (and maybe for a mod to move the relevant messages there) if you expect the arguments to continue. And finally please people keep it civilized, personal attacks or derogatory comments, even if it's against someone insufferable or an alleged hacker HAVE NO PLACE HERE. Or hell better, go flame on Reddit so you can collect those shinny "+1". :D Thank Every time someone says the bolded red statement in your quote it makes me want to spit on a puppy. Sure, technically stream-cheating isn't breaking Blizzard ToS. But is that the type of behavior that we want to be excusing in our community? Livestreamers provide entertainment for all of us, and stream-cheating interferes with their ability to do that. So for someone to just stand up and say "well, ho hum, if you choose to stream you accept the risk that someone is going to cheat and that's just the way life is, little johny!" just makes me GGRRRRR. You know, I hate Blizzard 1000x more for saying that (remember, they made a public statement to that effect awhile ago) than I do for all their protoss buffs and terran nerfs combined. Sure, streamers can discourage it by adding a delay, but that greatly harms viewer interaction, which is one of the reasons I love watching livestreams so much. Blizzard, being as useful as tits on a bull, may consider stream-ghosting to be "fair play", but I'm 99% sure that teamliquid does not. In fact, iirc stream-cheating was one of the offenses that lead to the infamous CombatEX being banned from teamliquid. End rant. You may all come out from under the table. I promise I won't byte. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On April 13 2015 07:58 codonbyte wrote: He doesn't accuse people and go to the trouble to collect this much evidence 5 times a day, though. Saying "wtf is this guy maphacking?" =/= methodically going through replay and noting timestamps for each suspicious action, noting it, writing it all up, and collecting other replays. Avilo does go back over replays and dwell on them on his stream when he accuses someone of hacking. And he has a cow over circumstantial evidence. I remember watching both avilo's and the alleged hacker's streams at the same time, and the guy is streaming and clearly not hacking. And Avilo is going on about circumstantial evidence which his confirmation bias pre-judges. Now, if Winter is actually looking at through the fog of war in a non-explainable way, that's one thing, and I can't see the replay since I don't have the beta. But Avilo has said the same things about circumstantial evidence in the past more than once. | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:25 Doodsmack wrote: Avilo does go back over replays and dwell on them on his stream when he accuses someone of hacking. Yeah, but he doesn't do that daily. When he does that, it's serious. The daily occurrence (although really not daily anymore) and what TotaIBiscuit was referring to is when he "wonders allowed" whether his opponent was hacking, but doesn't do a replay analysis or anything. | ||
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scott31337
United States2979 Posts
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:32 scott31337 wrote: I do not believe there is a LotV beta maphack yet, internal or external from the research I did (and other sites you aren't aware of) so I think this is all moot and confirmation bias at the moment. It does leave to interesting drama though. Do we know for a fact that HotS maphacks will not work for LotV? AFAIK, LotV just added some new unit models and animations to the HotS game client. I don't see why a maphack for HotS wouldn't work for LotV, I mean LotV beta is still using the same engine, just with a couple new unit models added. | ||
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CrimsonTT
4 Posts
On April 13 2015 06:45 avilo wrote: Maximus vs winter g1 echo LE: Replay: http://drop.sc/396104 2:25 Looking into fog of war at zealot, waypoint command used through zealot 3:53 You decide to scout your own third with an SCV, clicking to maximusblack'sunits. Same waypoint command issued after a few manual clicks and you look through the fog of war at his pylon/stalkers 6:03 Decides to take a peek at the pylon at your third to see if maximus still has his units there or not 7:20 You scan his main...ok, but you then actually select his robotics bay, and then you select his robo facility...what reason do you have to click on his robotics facility? No player ever does this because clicking on it does not tell you what is building in it...but sure 11:00 Looking into fog of war without selecting CC to scan 11:46 You are actually looking at his units through the fog of war 11:50 You are again looking at units through the fog of war at the natural of maximus black 12:24 You had been dropping this entire time, now maximus moves all of his units from his natural and is going for a full counter across the map You path your marine marauder at the bottom of the map away from his units 12:34/12:35 Ok, now suddenly your camera moves to the center of the map to the middle of no where...to where maximus is moving his entire army. You seem to have completely stopped dropping along with this, yet you have no idea where his units can be right now. Every time before this you always look through fog of war, and always 100% seem to know where maximusblack's units are while prepping drops. Another case of looking through the fog of war and seeing unit positions. Maximus vs winter g2 orbital shipyard: Replay: http://drop.sc/395945 3:43 winter again selects robo to see what's building? 4:31 winter looking into the fog of war at maximus black's base 4:53 another quick sneak peek into maximus black's base 5:09 Looks into maximus black's base again...this time a full sweep through the fog of war, does not even select an overlord during this time to sac into the base 5:14 While obviously normal to rally units to front base, winter begins selecting and moving roaches as maximus selects and moves his army preparing for the attack 9:33 mutas selected, going to attack? Mutas clicked to maximus black's army at the natural, then winter intentionally looks into the fog of war at maximus units, decides it will be a better idea to go harrass the back base, all without any vision 9:36-9:37 For some reason, the units you sent down to potentially break the rocks start clicking towards maximus black's army through the fog of war. The move commands seem intentionally directed towards where maximusblack's army is moving, almost as if following them through fog of war Maximus Black vs winter CodaLE: Replay: http://drop.sc/396085 Proxy DT game Short game, he scouts maximus is 1 base, goes to search for the proxy only on the left side of the map...luck again? 50/50 shot I only list this game because of the next game... Maximus Black vs winter iron fortress Replay: http://drop.sc/396181 Proxy Stargate Game And yes MaximusBlack is known for cheesing and proxy stargates, just read on and check it yourself. 2:42 marine given meticulous scouting commands given to search top for proxy, winter centers/moves his screen repeatedly to issue these commands 2:43 Actually, winter now accidentally move commands both of his marines to the center watch tower 2:47-2:48 (watch this part of the replay twice to catch this) winter's screen is now locked at his natural, and he miraculously has decided to change the method in which he will give this marine commands. With screen locked at his natural winter is issuing commands to his marine without ever moving his camera as he meticulously did before. Quickly and accurately he queues up way points to the proxied stargate while his screen is locked. This is drastically different than the initial time he sent a marine to "search" for the proxy stargate at 2:42. 2:55 Winter realizes he has accidentally overridden his initial marine scouting path and like at 2:42 to the area where the stargate is not, he meticulously moves his camera while manually setting each way point. Same as the first time, no screen lock this time, and he does it much slower. 3:00 winter's marine now has vision of the proxied stargate and he barely even reacts to it until 3:05 3:09 winter's camera actually jumps to check what the other dot on the mini-map is that is out of vision and he stares at it - which is maximus black's probe he then pans his camera back up to the stargate Winter VS mazarro: Replay: http://drop.sc/395995 5:20 Winter clicks his phoenix across the map to his opponent's natural as everyone normally does when sending phoenix across the map, you pick a point and go Around this time you can see Mafarazzo does the same, as this is standard when sending a unit across the map 5:23 Winter now is selecting his phoenix and right clicking in line with his opponent's phoenix on the mini-map. He now changes their move command to the center of the map 5:24 Mafarazzo selects his phoenix and re-orients it towards winter's natural once again standard amongst 99% players he is just resetting the move command across the map. He does this without looking at his phoenix, which is normal 5:26 Winter Selects and centers his camera on his phoenix in the center of the map. Rather than resetting another move command across the map, winter apparently knows something none of us do and he begins issuing multiple move commands towards mafarazzo's phoenix 5:27 If you take the camera off of winter's view, you can see he again move commands his phoenix closer to mafarazzo's phoenix where of course they will stop and intercept the phoenix that he has no vision of coming across the map 5:40 winter is again manually clicking his phoenixes to where his opponent's units have just moved from 5:41 Mafarazzo is moving his stalker/MSC back towards his ramp towards winter phoenixes and winter is clicking away from them at 5:42 6:34-6:35 winter looks in between mafarazzo's main and nat...but does not issue any move commands, he only looks, then immediately moves his phoenix up towards the natural base There are 5 more games with time stamps. There are a ridiculous amount of times in the PvZ maximus black orbital shipyard game where winter is staring through the fog of war at maximus black's base. The proxy stargate game is the most compelling due to the way winter searches for the proxy stargate via screen lock and almost instant way points and then later on even looks at a probe through the fog of war. If these games were streamed can you please edit your post and remove any reference to 'looking through fog of war' be it at the bases or the armies. Did Winter stream these games? If he did then these time stamps are irrelevant and should be removed for clarity. In case you still don't get it, only internal hacks reveal units through the fog of war (on the main view port / map). Winter cannot be using an internal map hack as he streams his games - it's impossible! Internal map hacks cannot be hidden from stream viewers. External hacks/overlays can be used by streamers, but these only display units via the minimap! They do not lock the camera either. Hackers who are adept at using external hacks will rarely look through the fog of war, however there are a couple of notable exceptions. Sometimes hackers will look through the fog of war when enemy units are very close to their own vision (but they can't actually see them). This is an instinctive reaction, they see enemy units on the minimap which are close to their own and assume they actually have vision of them. Occasionally this will occur for invisible/burrowed units which are nearby or inside the vision radius of a xelnaga tower. Unfortunately smarter hacks colour code invisible units, thus making it easier for hackers to immediately determine if they have vision of the unit. I highly doubt an external hack has been privately released already. | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
I for one have bad habit of looking at fog of war, even when there may not alweys be reason to do so. I may look at stuff i'm thinking about doing. For example looking at positions to attack, then thinking/deciding after that where to attack. Another one is scouting opponent and double checking what buildings he had. These are not necessary, but they may help sort your though during game. New maps this will be even more usual, checking different positions on the map that are good for pylons, overlords or just good for using the terrain. I am not sure how many times i do this during game, but if you do something like this lot you are bound to look at right place at right time ones in while. | ||
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scott31337
United States2979 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:37 codonbyte wrote: Do we know for a fact that HotS maphacks will not work for LotV? AFAIK, LotV just added some new unit models and animations to the HotS game client. I don't see why a maphack for HotS wouldn't work for LotV, I mean LotV beta is still using the same engine, just with a couple new unit models added. The byte locations change for every version/patch - so they have to be reprogrammed - no they would not work. | ||
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breath
United States199 Posts
On April 13 2015 07:34 avilo wrote: You just cherry picked things and ignored all of the times he is looking into fog of war, yeah ok. First things could be circumstantial but they were worth noting. If you are not going to comment on all of the looks into the fog of war at maximusblack's army at the later timestamps (and in later games), you should probably not be posting in this thread if you're going to ignore everything else. I chary picked YOUR timings you threw out, but when all of them are not even remotely close to anything useful i didn't really want to waste my time. But for you this one time i wasted it. Also want to point out that you seem to like to take points in time and throw the whole game out, Starcraft 2 is a very complex game taking one frame of reference and ignoring the current state of the game means nothing. 11:00 Looking into fog of war without selecting CC to scan Winter goes over to maximus base looks for a good spot to scan and scans, i have done this 100's of times, i'm not going to blinding scan a base when i can make sure i scan a spot that most likely has what i want to see. As for not selecting the CC, he had it selected BEFORE he even looked over to maximus base. No evidence of maphacking. 9:11 4 medivac drop, 2 of the medivacs almost dieing to running right into stalkers, if he had mini map vision this would never happen. 9:38 ends up losing the 1 medivacs to units in good position by maximus 11:46 You are actually looking at his units through the fog of war What units, winter is moving his army to finish off maximus (his drops before this did massive amount of damage). Where winter is looking at 11:46 there is nothing there ad he is moving his army to this position. Here as an image at this time of what winter is looking at ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EWBN8vl.jpg) No evidence of map hacking 11:50 You are again looking at units through the fog of war at the natural of maximus black Click on a location that is 1/4 in the window for less then 200 milliseconds, thena few seconds later drops his units onto maximus forces and maximus pretty well crushes the drop. Pretty clear he has not idea his units are there to me, if he did he would not have dropped. No evidence of map hacking 12:24 You had been dropping this entire time, now maximus moves all of his units from his natural and is going for a full counter across the map Winter with his drops had killed all of maximus main and 3rd, winter grabs all his units to get them together to move out to finish off maximus. which happens to be at the same time maximus is trying a last ditch counter attach He then 20 seconds later moves his army to attach and runs into maximus in the middle of the map with his units in a nice straight line (not together at all) No evidence of map hacking There was zero reason to continue to drop at this point the game was over after maximus lost his whole main to 2 dropships, all that is left for the terran is to get all the units together and make one final push. As for running into each other, they ran into each other in the middle of the map in a straight attach path, they didnt move around the map they went right down the middle. No evidence of map hacking My verdict for my hour spent, Not Map hacking. | ||
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v_lm
France202 Posts
I highly doubt an external hack has been privately released already. Maybe Winter as a key community figure has premium beta access ? | ||
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CrimsonTT
4 Posts
On April 13 2015 09:14 v_lm wrote: Maybe Winter as a key community figure has premium beta access ? Do you seriously believe that someone who makes their living through this game would make themselves known to a hack developer? Of course it's not impossible, but given that there are no public LotV hacks and that there are only a handful of external hack developers it's very unlikely. This just casts more doubt on the already dubious evidence. | ||
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Bloody
Sweden194 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On April 13 2015 10:19 Bloody wrote: Wouldn't Winter get more viewers if he is beating good players instead of losing? Even with hacks he'd lose against someone of Huks calibre almost all the time I reckon. You can win a lot of games for free with hacks but it's not going to make up for poor mechanics and a weak understanding of the matchup. | ||
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superzergling
2 Posts
http://drop.sc/395194 | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On April 13 2015 11:28 superzergling wrote: skip to 12 minute for most obvious map hacking proof.. http://drop.sc/395194 Can you describe the proof, so we know what to look for? Where should we have camera positioned? | ||
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On April 13 2015 11:28 superzergling wrote: skip to 12 minute for most obvious map hacking proof.. http://drop.sc/395194 Please try and follow the proper format that's posted in the OP Thank you! | ||
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