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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody.
Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence. |
On April 09 2015 03:58 KingAlphard wrote:Hacker name: [AG] Nightwarrior . Team AG (Aggression gaming) - he is the ingame owner of the team as well. Has been maphacking for at least 1 month. Server: EU League: Diamond B.Net profile: battlenet://starcraft/profile/2/1606736158648172544 http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3713126/1/NightWarrior/Replay: http://drop.sc/395875Pulls multiple probes ahead of time against a non scouted cannon rush.
He is not hacking..
1. you scout your base at 9 supply and the probe comes at base at 2:10 that a really early scout. so he know that there is something going on. in a normal game you scout with your 13 probe first around your base for proxies or cannon then you move your probe into your opponant base so it should be there around 3-3:30 min mark (map depended). when he sees the probe coming so early he takes another probe and puts it at is natrual ( that is just smart and good game sense).
2. You make a stargate and the orcal does some damages would never happend if he had hax.
3. you are really far behind and try to counter attack he know this because he did good damages against you. He makes 3 sentries could have force fielded your army in half at the ramp did not do it.. (He most likley would have forcefielded at perfect moment when you moved your army up is natural ramp if he would use hax)
He is not haxing. can you pls watch your own replay and just try to think as neutral as you can then you will not wast my time or other thinking that someone is hacking. Thanku
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Aside from the odd accuracy of the clicks on the minimap, I noticed winter spam clicking his phoenix at a location off camera. 7:36 time in his PvP vs Avilo.
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Don't wanna get too involved in the discussion so this is all I'm going to post here. Don't bother trying to get into a discussion because I'm not sufficiently interested to write more about it. I watched the HuK vs winter game on Echo there's no evidence that Winter is hacking and plenty of evidence that he is not. He makes far too many poor decisions and everything he does can be reasonably explained as either happenstance or a sensible idea based on how the game was going. If he is hacking he's doing a really good job not playing like one.
To refute the main 3 points:
1) This marine is scouting for 3rds. That it goes near an observer is coincidental
2) I don't see how this proves anything. If you draw a line from the robo bay that he'd scanned to his main, it's fair to say Winter can guess where an observer might be. Observers get scanned and killed all the time, doesn't prove much.
3) He gets caught by a stasis trap earlier in the game. Not only does that suggest he doesn't know where the stasis traps are but it would give him cause to not run in the obvious pathways.
Here I would pose the three main reasons that he's not hacking
1) He sacs his scouting scv to get information. He scans huks base multiple times and both 3rd locations. He scouts quite a bit actually
2) his first marine poke is super fucking awful. He should know that's not going to work before he goes in.
3) He doesn't react to phoenixes or the warp prism until after they're in his line of sight.
Hate Winter for reaping the viewbot benefits all you want, but not for hacking.
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On April 13 2015 04:56 Raguel wrote:He is not hacking.. 1. you scout your base at 9 supply and the probe comes at base at 2:10 that a really early scout. so he know that there is something going on. in a normal game you scout with your 13 probe first around your base for proxies or cannon then you move your probe into your opponant base so it should be there around 3-3:30 min mark (map depended). when he sees the probe coming so early he takes another probe and puts it at is natrual ( that is just smart and good game sense). 2. You make a stargate and the orcal does some damages would never happend if he had hax. 3. you are really far behind and try to counter attack he know this because he did good damages against you. He makes 3 sentries could have force fielded your army in half at the ramp did not do it.. (He most likley would have forcefielded at perfect moment when you moved your army up is natural ramp if he would use hax) He is not haxing. can you pls watch your own replay and just try to think as neutral as you can then you will not wast my time or other thinking that someone is hacking. Thanku
First off, it's not me playing. So, you can quit with your "think neutral" bullshit. Why do you say "waste my time"? lol, so this guy is actually you? By the way I have more replays of him hacking, it's just not worth it to post them because this one is already pretty obvious. Just because a probe comes in at 2:10 you don't patrol your probe on the natural base ramp and chase him down with 10 other probes.
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On April 13 2015 04:22 ZeromuS wrote:
It might be fishy but we need more evidence before big claims are made.
If this was pure build order blind countering and looking through FoW, or changing builds to react to proxies etc.
So, more replays before fully throwing someone under the bus. This is starting to push into conspiracy theory levels of "proof" that reminds me of the Future hunt (with far far fewer replays).
Big claims ? Notice how Avilo only went casually reporting him on this dedicaded thread.
There is no obvious hacking moves but the sum of all the clues Avilo gathered is enough to claim he is maphacking, I mean otherwise every other report in this thread is out of proportion.
EDIT : that being said, i think we must indeed study other replays from Winter played around the same peiod of time, more data will only be better so you're right. This maphack report is totally legit though.
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On April 13 2015 05:02 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Don't wanna get too involved in the discussion so this is all I'm going to post here. Don't bother trying to get into a discussion because I'm not sufficiently interested to write more about it. I watched the HuK vs winter game on Echo there's no evidence that Winter is hacking and plenty of evidence that he is not. He makes far too many poor decisions and everything he does can be reasonably explained as either happenstance or a sensible idea based on how the game was going. If he is hacking he's doing a really good job not playing like one.
To refute the main 3 points:
1) This marine is scouting for 3rds. That it goes near an observer is coincidental
2) I don't see how this proves anything. If you draw a line from the robo bay that he'd scanned to his main, it's fair to say Winter can guess where an observer might be. Observers get scanned and killed all the time, doesn't prove much.
3) He gets caught by a stasis trap earlier in the game. Not only does that suggest he doesn't know where the stasis traps are but it would give him cause to not run in the obvious pathways.
Here I would pose the three main reasons that he's not hacking
1) He sacs his scouting scv to get information. He scans huks base multiple times and both 3rd locations. He scouts quite a bit actually
2) his first marine poke is super fucking awful. He should know that's not going to work before he goes in.
3) He doesn't react to phoenixes or the warp prism until after they're in his line of sight.
Hate Winter for reaping the viewbot benefits all you want, but not for hacking.
A hacker does not always "never scout" or not sac scvs and do normal gameplay patterns. Those have nothing to do with the main evidence provided. Pretty much anyone that has ever been caught ever has always played what is seemingly normal up to certain points in their games. If you go through this thread there are maybe some blatant hackers that literally will never scout, but there are also a ton diamond/masters/gm that do play is if normal for lengthy periods in-game.
The difference between the first stasis trap he is caught by is that he is already multi-tasking, loading/unloading drops and he runs into it.
The second stronger piece of evidence is when nothing is happening he clicks directly to the stasis ward, checks back to re-orient his units, then checks back again to scan, and again finally almost circumvents around the ward near the end.
http://imgur.com/a/QLP9o
As for "his marine poke is super fucking awful" that is true but that does not refute the other evidence. Lots of hackers are "awful."
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On April 13 2015 05:15 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 05:02 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Don't wanna get too involved in the discussion so this is all I'm going to post here. Don't bother trying to get into a discussion because I'm not sufficiently interested to write more about it. I watched the HuK vs winter game on Echo there's no evidence that Winter is hacking and plenty of evidence that he is not. He makes far too many poor decisions and everything he does can be reasonably explained as either happenstance or a sensible idea based on how the game was going. If he is hacking he's doing a really good job not playing like one.
To refute the main 3 points:
1) This marine is scouting for 3rds. That it goes near an observer is coincidental
2) I don't see how this proves anything. If you draw a line from the robo bay that he'd scanned to his main, it's fair to say Winter can guess where an observer might be. Observers get scanned and killed all the time, doesn't prove much.
3) He gets caught by a stasis trap earlier in the game. Not only does that suggest he doesn't know where the stasis traps are but it would give him cause to not run in the obvious pathways.
Here I would pose the three main reasons that he's not hacking
1) He sacs his scouting scv to get information. He scans huks base multiple times and both 3rd locations. He scouts quite a bit actually
2) his first marine poke is super fucking awful. He should know that's not going to work before he goes in.
3) He doesn't react to phoenixes or the warp prism until after they're in his line of sight.
Hate Winter for reaping the viewbot benefits all you want, but not for hacking. A hacker does not always "never scout" or not sac scvs and do normal gameplay patterns. Those have nothing to do with the main evidence provided. Pretty much anyone that has ever been caught ever has always played what is seemingly normal up to certain points in their games. The difference between the first stasis trap he is caught by is that he is already multi-tasking, loading/unloading drops and he runs into it. The second stronger piece of evidence is when nothing is happening he clicks directly to the stasis ward, checks back to re-orient his units, then checks back again to scan, and again finally almost circumvents around the ward near the end. As for "his marine poke is super fucking awful" that is true but that does not refute the other evidence. Lots of hackers are "awful."
is this avilo the character talking
or avilo the real person?
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Winter might be awful, but the fact is that he is 2-0 against Avilo. Hhhehhehe.
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On April 13 2015 05:16 thewood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 05:15 avilo wrote:On April 13 2015 05:02 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Don't wanna get too involved in the discussion so this is all I'm going to post here. Don't bother trying to get into a discussion because I'm not sufficiently interested to write more about it. I watched the HuK vs winter game on Echo there's no evidence that Winter is hacking and plenty of evidence that he is not. He makes far too many poor decisions and everything he does can be reasonably explained as either happenstance or a sensible idea based on how the game was going. If he is hacking he's doing a really good job not playing like one.
To refute the main 3 points:
1) This marine is scouting for 3rds. That it goes near an observer is coincidental
2) I don't see how this proves anything. If you draw a line from the robo bay that he'd scanned to his main, it's fair to say Winter can guess where an observer might be. Observers get scanned and killed all the time, doesn't prove much.
3) He gets caught by a stasis trap earlier in the game. Not only does that suggest he doesn't know where the stasis traps are but it would give him cause to not run in the obvious pathways.
Here I would pose the three main reasons that he's not hacking
1) He sacs his scouting scv to get information. He scans huks base multiple times and both 3rd locations. He scouts quite a bit actually
2) his first marine poke is super fucking awful. He should know that's not going to work before he goes in.
3) He doesn't react to phoenixes or the warp prism until after they're in his line of sight.
Hate Winter for reaping the viewbot benefits all you want, but not for hacking. A hacker does not always "never scout" or not sac scvs and do normal gameplay patterns. Those have nothing to do with the main evidence provided. Pretty much anyone that has ever been caught ever has always played what is seemingly normal up to certain points in their games. The difference between the first stasis trap he is caught by is that he is already multi-tasking, loading/unloading drops and he runs into it. The second stronger piece of evidence is when nothing is happening he clicks directly to the stasis ward, checks back to re-orient his units, then checks back again to scan, and again finally almost circumvents around the ward near the end. As for "his marine poke is super fucking awful" that is true but that does not refute the other evidence. Lots of hackers are "awful." is this avilo the character talking or avilo the real person?
honestly, is there a difference?
he claims "character/personality" whenever he gets caught doing stupid shit and buried himself deeper into this facade in order to not look emotionally unstable.
prove me wrong, avilo
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ive only played wintersc2 twice in the beta (never played him in hots) but he didnt play suspicious at all, small game sample tho
in any case its impossible to figure out whether or not someone is hacking just by watching 1 game
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Don't bother trying to get into a discussion because I'm not sufficiently interested to write more about it.
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big fan iaguz, sign my chest plz?
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Some people here do not get that finding one instance of a suspicious move in a fog of war does not mean that the person is maphacking. Things happen by chance all the time.
The only way you can say with certainty that someone map hacks is :
- get him with his pants down (streams with minimap that reveals units in the fog of war, see the opponent stream on a mirror in the background)
- accumulate sufficient amount of proof through numerous instances (it's called getting a number of lines of evidence) that you can refute that it happened by chance
Getting three mildly suspicious instances in one replay is just not enough, and Winter's last 250/500 matches is far more than enough to dispel the accusations on him.
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If it had come from anyone other than Avilo it might have been taken seriously but Avilo accuses like 5 people a day of maphacking, he is the boy who cried wolf far too many times.
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Avilo's reasoning for his many hacking allegations has never been solid. It's always rife with confirmation bias, and he interprets things that could be coincedence over such a small sample size as "no doubt he hacks". But clearly he cannot see that his arguments.are not good.
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I have viewed the vods in question as well as reading all of the analysis here and taking careful note of some of the streamers out there streaming with two monitors.
I think it highlights a few points:
- It is obvious that Winter was just doing what all streamers do. Many of them will look of screen checking their chats and Winter definitely views and responds to his chats during his play
- Winter just outplays avilo, his multitasking seems to be far better. I don't think he needs a hack to beat avilo, he is just a far better player. I didn't realise that before all this came out.
- I can't imagine that a hack out there actually exists for LoTV, checking the known hack sites they do seem to be specific to certain game versions.
- It just does not make sense for someone like Winter (or anyone) to use a hack in the middle of the beta as those players that are in it are quite visible, it would not only end the account they use but make them know to Blizzard personally as a hacker - you would have to be batshit crazy to use hacks right now.
Winter has handled himself really well throughout this, as someone who is a big and exclusive SC2 fan, I find it really sad to see these kinds of attacks, they really do bring everyone down.
I think the only solution is a monitored show match, let em sort it out and prove that Winter is a far better player than Avilo ... make him eat his sox and apologise for all of the attacks.
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On April 13 2015 06:01 Attunga wrote:I have viewed the vods in question as well as reading all of the analysis here and taking careful note of some of the streamers out there streaming with two monitors. I think it highlights a few points: - It is obvious that Winter was just doing what all streamers do. Many of them will look of screen checking their chats and Winter definitely views and responds to his chats during his play
- Winter just outplays avilo, his multitasking seems to be far better. I don't think he needs a hack to beat avilo, he is just a far better player. I didn't realise that before all this came out.
- I can't imagine that a hack out there actually exists for LoTV, checking the known hack sites they do seem to be specific to certain game versions.
- It just does not make sense for someone like Winter (or anyone) to use a hack in the middle of the beta as those players that are in it are quite visible, it would not only end the account they use but make them know to Blizzard personally as a hacker - you would have to be batshit crazy to use hacks right now.
Winter has handled himself really well throughout this, as someone who is a big and exclusive SC2 fan, I find it really sad to see these kinds of attacks, they really do bring everyone down. I think the only solution is a monitored show match, let em sort it out and prove that Winter is a far better player than Avilo ... make him eat his sox and apologise for all of the attacks.
This. A carefully monitored showmatch. With TB casting. Oh the lols.
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On April 13 2015 05:10 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 04:56 Raguel wrote:On April 09 2015 03:58 KingAlphard wrote:Hacker name: [AG] Nightwarrior . Team AG (Aggression gaming) - he is the ingame owner of the team as well. Has been maphacking for at least 1 month. Server: EU League: Diamond B.Net profile: battlenet://starcraft/profile/2/1606736158648172544 http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3713126/1/NightWarrior/Replay: http://drop.sc/395875Pulls multiple probes ahead of time against a non scouted cannon rush. He is not hacking.. 1. you scout your base at 9 supply and the probe comes at base at 2:10 that a really early scout. so he know that there is something going on. in a normal game you scout with your 13 probe first around your base for proxies or cannon then you move your probe into your opponant base so it should be there around 3-3:30 min mark (map depended). when he sees the probe coming so early he takes another probe and puts it at is natrual ( that is just smart and good game sense). 2. You make a stargate and the orcal does some damages would never happend if he had hax. 3. you are really far behind and try to counter attack he know this because he did good damages against you. He makes 3 sentries could have force fielded your army in half at the ramp did not do it.. (He most likley would have forcefielded at perfect moment when you moved your army up is natural ramp if he would use hax) He is not haxing. can you pls watch your own replay and just try to think as neutral as you can then you will not wast my time or other thinking that someone is hacking. Thanku First off, it's not me playing. So, you can quit with your "think neutral" bullshit. Why do you say "waste my time"? lol, so this guy is actually you? By the way I have more replays of him hacking, it's just not worth it to post them because this one is already pretty obvious. Just because a probe comes in at 2:10 you don't patrol your probe on the natural base ramp and chase him down with 10 other probes.
Well, I would like those other replays you have, because I think he is not map hacking.
He scouts after putting down his gate at 13 supply, literally nothing surprising. He sees the probe getting in, and puts a second probe on patrol at his ramp. The first thing said after is "map hax?". Who is trying to convince who here?
Finally, you have a very aggressive behavior, typically, this type of person will end up with "I know I am right, just, whatever, you are all idiots, you must be a maphacker too". Please don't
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On April 13 2015 05:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If it had come from anyone other than Avilo it might have been taken seriously but Avilo accuses like 5 people a day of maphacking, he is the boy who cried wolf far too many times.
Not going to get into it. People can look at the evidence, too many posts in this thread are random flames/attacks on character, which has literally nothing to do with what was posted.
+ Show Spoiler +to keep thread on-topic, i'll keep this to spoiler i never have "cried wolf" about hackers. There was a span of 1-2 months where almost every other game imbaqq players and other barcode hackers were stream sniping my stream and there was a huge influx of hackers on ladder. As for people saying "oh but u called demuslim or so n so a hacker" once again context. I played him around the same time, he was on a barcode, and i was being heavily metagamed and had no clue whether it was a legit barcode or not. Context matters.
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So, one of two things... Either a couple of coincidences happen in a couple of high profile games where a bunch of people are dying to find something that would make winter look even worse, or winter decided that he would get hacks that are unavailable for a beta version of LotV and demonstrate them during games against a pro player + Show Spoiler + Which makes more sense?
Edit: I put part in a spoiler for ya, Avilo.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
