EPTthat would be great.
He can dirty up reddit if he wants to but it's gross having him shit up TL
GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating th…
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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody. Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence. | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
that would be great. He can dirty up reddit if he wants to but it's gross having him shit up TL | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
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Poisonbox
Germany14 Posts
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neteX
Sweden285 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 12 2015 20:51 WinterStarcraft wrote: My final required (arguably post on this thread). Every bit of evidence posted is either obviously wrong (top example is avilos previous post where he says - 6:24 Winter's Command Centers both rally to Observer leaving huk's natural. This is most likely a legitimate mistake/misclick? Rally is along pathing of obs, Happens again later at winter's natural when the second observer gets closer...still could be legitimate mistake, interesting that it happens twice with observers nearby though 6:28 Moving marine/marauder to observer he doesn't know is there in the fog of war, starts clicking to it 9:13 winter's screen jumps to near the stasis ward again...not his units at first as he breaks down rocks First section marine is literally hotkeyed to a move command BEFORE the observer even is finished producing. Secondly the observer is rallied towards the natural of huk, not towards the marine which is ALREADY MOVING BEFORE IT FINISHED. Scouting for a 3rd is now maphack evidence. Secondly, the observer ends up outside my natural. I can't believe i would click "Moving marine/marauder to observer he doesn't know is there in the fog of war, starts clicking to it " outside of my natural, planning to attack. THE ONLY PLACE I COULD POSSIBLY MOVE OUT MY GROUND FORCES seems to be where I was clicking. Hacks confirmed. 9:13 winter's screen jumps to near the stasis ward again...not his units at first as he breaks down rocks At no point is the stasis ward even in my vision range. This is literally made up rofl. Past that I actually run into a stasis ward and lost about 20 supply because of it. I couldn't make it any further I apologize. First thing - that is not what i presented. Your first marine is waypointed to one of the thirds. You then reset it to a waypointed move into attack move command across the observer on the mini-map. You then take manual control and start clicking towards the observer. After you realize nothing is there (nothing attackable at least), you click it to huk's other third base. Same exact behaviour as in my game when you click to my observer on the mini-map that you have no vision of and have never had your camera on. Second thing - It is not made up. 11:17-11:30 The stasis ward is indeed not in your vision range. Yet you click perfectly on it through the fog of war with your top group of marine/marauder. You then go back to it again in the fog of war a few seconds later and you instead re-adjust your move command to above the stasis ward to not trigger it. Third, you again move screen to go back to it again and you actually select your two command centers to scan it, but you do not have enough scan energy. Finally, the last time before you begin to go the multi-prong attack you either consciously or subconsciously start to path your units around the stasis ward you seem to know is there. There is a right click to the right of the stasis ward that you have been looking at multiple times through fog of war. This is not circumstantial behaviour. This is you within the span of 20 seconds reacting to a cloaked unit on the map that you should have no idea exists in a very elaborate manner. And as shown, you do this with observers you have never seen across two different games. | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On April 12 2015 20:00 WinterStarcraft wrote: Everything up to 11 minutes of the previous "evidence" is completely wrong and obviously so. Past that I did not watch because if your first 10 claims are wrong I can't be bothered to spend 2 hours going over a game I LOST. Is it just me, or has Winter been dodging everything? I am no expert but I assume that if you cannot discredit an accusation against you, that you are guilty of, your next best option is to target the credibility of the accuser? Secondly, deceit and lies are best disguised alongside truth, it is common knowledge that if you want to lie or trick someone you mix as much truth in with the lie to obtain credibility. In this quote for example we see both: he is targeting avillo's credibility, and then dodging the rest of the accusations with the logic that "I am not hacking because I lost", as a reader your first impressions are typically "wow he is right, because hackers win games because they are hacking, If he was truly hacking, he wouldn't have lost". In reality, hackers use the hacks to gain an advantage, this does not always mean they will win. For the people who keep asking Winter to use a shoulder cam, please, that is among the dumbest logic I have ever read. You have accusations and evidence supporting a 'crime'. If the defendant of a crime was a murderer for example, how is telling the defendant "Let us watch you go about your day, and if we don't see you murder anyone then you clearly must not be a murderer" make any logical sense? | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
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BreAKerTV
Taiwan1658 Posts
On April 12 2015 20:20 ProTech wrote: If any of you actually spend the time to watch this replay, and the analysis ( which most people don't because they enjoy drama more than facts ) you would know that the things that avilo is pointing out are VERY unlikely to EVER happen in a game of SC2. Does the fact that Winter completely missed a warp prism from HuK harrassing his main hold any weight as a counter-argument? | ||
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Riggnaros
United States1 Post
On April 13 2015 00:57 KelsierSC wrote: yeh if we could get winter off these forums for good that would be great. He can dirty up reddit if he wants to but it's gross having him shit up TL Not that I am taking either side in this endeavor, but I think it is quite narrow minded to request someone punished solely based on someone elses claims. Avilo could be right in his accusations, but until it is proven or dismissed we should all reserve judgement. Reading this thread is like watching mob mentality evolve in text form. Most of the time it seems he is merely responding to claims of other people trying to slander his name (which may or may not be warranted, but thats not the point). Tbh, neither side wins here. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
it did feel like he was trying to not be suspicious by scouting it first then sending the marines that were close to it... maybe he's just a bad player though but yeah it did seem pretty weird | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On April 13 2015 01:16 Poisonbox wrote: I cannot understand how anyone can side with avilo on this one. I know it's Winter, wouldn't it be great drama if he was hacking? But the "evidence" pointed out in the replays is always that his movement intersects the movement of observers. Now let's put aside that the observers are not cleared by Winter so knowing where they are does not help him at all and let's just say the rally point is towards the next enemy unit, which is imo a really useless hack. Now note that of hundreds of clicks that Winter did during the game only about four to five lined up with Avilo movement, what's with the other 500 clicks, was he not using a script at that time? Is it really that unbelievable that your movement path intersects four times in a twelve minute game? This is really all there is to it, the army movement lines up four to five times, if this is enough to confirm a hacker than someone should take a close look if Avilo is not hacking himself. I mean why did he send an observer to the third base, how could he possibly know there was a base? Avilo cmon this is getting ridiculous. I cannot understand how anyone can side with avilo on this one. This is not about siding with Avilo, this is taking evidence provided against a defendant. Avilo provided the evidence, nothing more. There is no siding with Avilo, there is only siding with the assumption that Winter is a hacker, or is not a hacker. You are portraying bias behavior. I know it's Winter, wouldn't it be great drama if he was hacking? Congrats, you are aware of the person being accused, and yet at the same time you are contributing to the drama by avoiding the subject. But the "evidence" pointed out in the replays is always that his movement intersects the movement of observers. Now let's put aside that the observers are not cleared by Winter so knowing where they are does not help him at all and let's just say the rally point is towards the next enemy unit, which is imo a really useless hack. You are arguing that he must not be hacking because the ability to intercept automatically is "a really useless hack", and that in the grand scheme intercepting "does not help him". You are attempting to discredit the accusations because it is "a really useless hack" and it "does not help him". Now note that of hundreds of clicks that Winter did during the game only about four to five lined up with Avilo movement, what's with the other 500 clicks, was he not using a script at that time? So now you are arguing that Winter must not be using hacks, because the other 500 clicks should have been done through a script as well? With your logic: people who use hacks, must apply them to 100% of their actions? Is it really that unbelievable that your movement path intersects four times in a twelve minute game? The duration of the game does not matter, twelve minutes or twenty minutes. The important matter is that when actions were being made, they were being made to intercept, period. This is really all there is to it, the army movement lines up four to five times, if this is enough to confirm a hacker than someone should take a close look if Avilo is not hacking himself. This is also a typical defendant response, when you cannot support your points with facts you immediately target the accuser's credibility. Just my first impressions: you have provided more evidence supporting the idea that you are a smurf account for Winter by not providing any relevant information to this topic. I mean why did he send an observer to the third base, how could he possibly know there was a base? Avilo cmon this is getting ridiculous. This is the line we draw between game timings and random acts that classify as hacking. Using your own logic against you, if Avilo was hacking, why would he need the observer? I didn't even get through the first quarter of your post before thinking the same thing "cmon this is getting rediculous" Poisonbox | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On April 13 2015 02:19 ROOTFayth wrote: the medivac shift clicking at the most random time to the warp prism was the most suspicious to me... I mean it was quite a lil while after the 3 zealot drop it did feel like he was trying to not be suspicious by scouting it first then sending the marines that were close to it... maybe he's just a bad player though but yeah it did seem pretty weird We need a lot more than 2 replays before we can seriously start another attack on Winter. The viewbotting IMO (his fault or not I dont care) was clear enough and over a large amount of data and after it there has been a corresponding drop in overall viewership etc. The hacking thing idk. Cherry picking suspicious not super obvious stuff can happen if you look at enough replays. But you need more replays to build a serious case. I guess for ppl who care that much just save all the replays you have from playing vs winter and compile them. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Solus420
United States53 Posts
The only thing that i found weird in that game was the scan on the observer in the middle of the map. I couldn't even see it in slow mo. and 2 the following the phoenix through the fog of war at huks natural during the final engagement. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
On April 12 2015 20:00 WinterStarcraft wrote: Everything up to 11 minutes of the previous "evidence" is completely wrong and obviously so. Past that I did not watch because if your first 10 claims are wrong I can't be bothered to spend 2 hours going over a game I LOST. It is so silly that you even think its logical to say its irellevant to go over a game to make sure you are not cheating because you lost, also this pretty much just solidifies the point that you are most likely cheating in the first place. | ||
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Mongoose
United Kingdom190 Posts
On April 12 2015 23:00 WinterStarcraft wrote: Three. I NEVER CLICK EVEN ON THE STASIS WARD NOR HAVE IT IN MY VISION. Finally a large reason why I lose the game is because of a stasis ward I did not realize was there. Also conveniently ignored in your analysis. Is it just me or is this not a sufficient counter argument? Instead of explaining why he stopped his units before the stasis ward, tried to path around the stasis ward AND also tried to SCAN the stasis ward, he simply states two irrelevant facts - that he didn't click ON the ward or had it in his vision - avilo never said he did. It doesn't matter if you don't have vision of it because maphacking could have GIVEN you vision. avilo wrote: 11:17-11:30 The stasis ward is indeed not in your vision range. Yet you click perfectly on it through the fog of war with your top group of marine/marauder. You then go back to it again in the fog of war a few seconds later and you instead re-adjust your move command to above the stasis ward to not trigger it. Third, you again move screen to go back to it again and you actually select your two command centers to scan it, but you do not have enough scan energy. Finally, the last time before you begin to go the multi-prong attack you either consciously or subconsciously start to path your units around the stasis ward you seem to know is there. There is a right click to the right of the stasis ward that you have been looking at multiple times through fog of war. This is not circumstantial behaviour. This is you within the span of 20 seconds reacting to a cloaked unit on the map that you should have no idea exists in a very elaborate manner. And as shown, you do this with observers you have never seen across two different games. Winter needs to answer to this in more depth... | ||
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
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ProTech
United States434 Posts
the first replay avilo presented is clear cut evidence. using the minimap to set up a hallucinated phx that kisses a random observer combined with clicking damn near 1 pixel away from the obs @ his third, these two EXTREMELY unlikely things to occur in a game of SC2. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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Promised_pain
Finland57 Posts
On April 13 2015 02:43 Solus420 wrote: Now bearing i only watched the winter vs huk game. And that i watched the replays before reading any of the analysis from avilo. The only thing that i found weird in that game was the scan on the observer in the middle of the map. I couldn't even see it in slow mo. and 2 the following the phoenix through the fog of war at huks natural during the final engagement. Unless you're blind, you can clearly see the observer here: http://www.twitch.tv/wintergaming/v/4011909?t=25m20s As you can also see, he just doesn't have energy to use a scan and kill it...unless you are talking about a different obs? But this certainly is at middle of the map. | ||
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