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A legit discussion on the new queen buff - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-11 23:15:35
May 11 2012 23:14 GMT
#81
I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
May 11 2012 23:15 GMT
#82
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth base?


For a protoss that's highly map dependent. Any map where it works is probably reaching towards being imbalanced for protoss.
MrCash
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1504 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-11 23:25:16
May 11 2012 23:18 GMT
#83
Even if it "breaks" the current meta game, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced.
I do feel it makes scouting for zerg too simple compared to the other two races, hell drone scouting is almost unnecessary on more than half the maps now.
Overall, it will change the meta game, what type of aggression and possibly even builds that are effective, but not necessarily make zerg overpowered. Time will tell with win ratios.
Any large unit change is annoying, because it will require to make adjustments to your play style, but again, it doesn't make it imbalanced, just make some races have to work harder to adjust to the game.

Just to summarize: just because our current builds/timings aren't as effective anymore, doesn't mean there are other timings that won't work.
Harstem
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands263 Posts
May 11 2012 23:18 GMT
#84
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?


This is because zerg will always have a better eco then a toss when both are playing as greedy as possible. This is because of the larva mechanic. They can build 3-4 drones per hatch while toss builds 2 probes per nexus (chronoboost). You will never be able to outproduce zerg workerwise.

The thing that I dislike the most is that I can not kite a queen with my stalker anymore. This makes early 1 zeal 1 stalker pressure useless, which results in zergs being able to getting less early game lings and more drones.
Progamer
TheSwamp
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1497 Posts
May 11 2012 23:18 GMT
#85
Is this really legit, though?
MLG: How is your Protoss? Idra: I make Blink Stalkers, so really, really good.
Leth0
Profile Joined February 2012
856 Posts
May 11 2012 23:19 GMT
#86
On May 12 2012 08:18 TheSwamp wrote:
Is this really legit, though?


Says so in the title doesn't it?

Case closed.
Moochlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States456 Posts
May 11 2012 23:19 GMT
#87
Can we just be honest here, It isn't the queen that's breaking this match up. It's the must buy Mothership, Toss is forced into buying, because of the current Zerg death ball. Terran has a similar late game right now vs toss, this whole version of sc2 is limiting blah blah blah, BW has an expansion its not fair.
blaaaaaarghhhhh
GrassEater
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden417 Posts
May 11 2012 23:23 GMT
#88
On May 12 2012 08:13 Gentso wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 08:11 GrassEater wrote:
On May 12 2012 08:04 Leth0 wrote:
On May 12 2012 08:03 GrassEater wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote:
Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.


He is an pro gamer and you are not.


He's a pro gamer so what?

He is immune to being wrong now?

Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another.


Read what i responded to plz.


You should read what you responded to. I said leave it to the top pros to figure it out. Did I say I was a top pro? Did I make any generalizations or statements in regards to balance? Nope! I just feel like there's a good number of low tier pro gamers that don't do much but whine and look for excuses. It used to be BW was the better game but I think they've gotten over that by now.


I can agree that he should have waited to see if his theory is correct or not. But practising a lot and being on a team and so gives you a insight of the "state of the game". Your comment gave me the impression that he somehow had flawed understanding and couldn't be taken seriously because he don't win tournaments.
Opeasy
Profile Joined August 2011
107 Posts
May 11 2012 23:24 GMT
#89
I feel this will limit the use of terran micro early game. Reapers will die to queens off creep now. hellions will die to queens off creep now. I think hellions will still be made, but i believe we have seen our last reaper in TvZ (or at least if you don't go mass reaper builds, but they are rarely seen anyways). This goes against what blizzard has said about wanting a more skill based game, and makes me a sad panda (or reaper). As a zerg and terran player, i have not felt the need for this change. For ZvP it does not matter so much, since stalkers still outrange queens. First they took my ghost snipe TvT build, now they take my reaper TvZ build. please stop blizzard, it's enough now, even flash says so
TheSwamp
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1497 Posts
May 11 2012 23:24 GMT
#90
On May 12 2012 08:19 Leth0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 08:18 TheSwamp wrote:
Is this really legit, though?


Says so in the title doesn't it?

Case closed.


Damn you and your logic!
MLG: How is your Protoss? Idra: I make Blink Stalkers, so really, really good.
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
May 11 2012 23:25 GMT
#91
On May 12 2012 08:18 Harstem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?


This is because zerg will always have a better eco then a toss when both are playing as greedy as possible. This is because of the larva mechanic. They can build 3-4 drones per hatch while toss builds 2 probes per nexus (chronoboost). You will never be able to outproduce zerg workerwise.


Ok, but it still gives you a better situation than taking a slower third, yes? Getting a quick third and then powering up tech/upgrades would seem to me to be the way to go vs a super greedy Zerg. Anyway, it's just a thought.
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Dark supplydepo
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden103 Posts
May 11 2012 23:25 GMT
#92
Well its too late now, they have done the animation.
Supreme exellence is deafeting your opponent without fighting. It is also boring
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-11 23:34:59
May 11 2012 23:26 GMT
#93
I don't understand how the range change is a problem in PvZ. Queens have always been good against zealots, and the range buff doesn't make then much better at all.

I suppose it buffs zerg vs 2 gate stalker openings without zealots, but I hardly ever, EVER see that opening.

I guess another thing someone might be thinking of is sentries, but I couldn't imagine getting enough queens to deal with any amount of stalker-sentry-zealot that a protoss would move out with.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
May 11 2012 23:27 GMT
#94
You can't always take a quick third because speedlings are faster than zealots and stalkers and trying to defend two expansions on most maps means you have to leave your defensive position. It's that simple.
JOJOsc2news
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
3000 Posts
May 11 2012 23:27 GMT
#95
On May 12 2012 08:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 08:18 Harstem wrote:
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?


This is because zerg will always have a better eco then a toss when both are playing as greedy as possible. This is because of the larva mechanic. They can build 3-4 drones per hatch while toss builds 2 probes per nexus (chronoboost). You will never be able to outproduce zerg workerwise.


Ok, but it still gives you a better situation than taking a slower third, yes? Getting a quick third and then powering up tech/upgrades would seem to me to be the way to go vs a super greedy Zerg. Anyway, it's just a thought.


Nope.

A super greedy Zerg can still max out at 12 minutes. How do you defend that on three bases at 12 minutes? You can't. You won't have nearly enough if you want any kind of meaningful saturation at these three bases. Anyways, this is getting off topic now.
✉ Tweets @sc2channel ⌦ Blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/JOJO ⌫ "Arbiterssss... build more arbiterssss." Click 'Profile' for awesome shiro art!
GuardianEU
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands488 Posts
May 11 2012 23:29 GMT
#96
On May 12 2012 07:51 NexCa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 07:41 inermis wrote:
Poll: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ?

NO (720)
 
53%

YES (530)
 
39%

I DON'T CARE (99)
 
7%

1349 total votes

Your vote: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ?

(Vote): YES
(Vote): NO
(Vote): I DON'T CARE





obviously all Zergs are happy, so they voted "no"


then that should still be only 33% of votes no?
Standard.
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
May 11 2012 23:29 GMT
#97
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?

Because when I take a super fast third, I sacrifice units for that. Zerg just needs to throw down a Roach Warren and cut Drones if he wants to overrun me. Protoss can't go Gate Nexus Nexus against Zerg for a reason.
-Kira
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
352 Posts
May 11 2012 23:30 GMT
#98
i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.
Apevia
Profile Joined July 2010
United States49 Posts
May 11 2012 23:31 GMT
#99
While I do find it easier to hold early aggression, wasn't that the intention of this buff? Blizzard felt it was to hard for zerg to hold early aggression so they implemented this. If it truely is broken we will see a change.
http://www.justin.tv/apevia13
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
May 11 2012 23:31 GMT
#100
On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote:
i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.

It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
Cackle™
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