in PvZ obviously, i cant speak for the other races. The situation im talking about is a FFE build.
Sorry i was messing around in my previous thread, i just wanted to address a huge issue that the queen buff has brought up in early game PvZ. Simply put protoss cant pressure zerg in the early game anymore(this statement obviously doesnt factor in any mistakes made from the zerg's side, i.e: making a round of drones before an attack etc., basically standard gameplay stuff). By opening with a mass queen b.o(5'ish) zergs can delay theyre gases and eco up much more than before because the new queen style is safe against any early game pressure b.o's that protoss can do, b.os such as the voidray into phoenix style or a 4gate pressure. Protoss HAS to do be able to harass zerg in the early game or else they fall behind in eco, by giving the queen a range buff blizzard has basically removed any cost-effective way for us to harass zerg's, its bad enought that stephano can max out at 11minutes while holding off early game pressure as it is, imagine what'll happen after this buff..
remember the HOTS thread i made a while back that talked about how stupid the replicator was? u might not agree with what im saying now because the patch is still new but 1-2 months down the line ull understand how ridiculously strong this buff is
EDIT: I didnt address the reason why the buff makes it extremely hard for protoss to harass zerg in the early game because i thought it was common sense, basically zerg players had to gas before in order to make roachs so they could hold off 4gate builds because queens were kit-able with zealot stalker pressure builds(if zerg didnt gas and had lings + queens), however by giving the queen 5 range zerg's now have a viable way to counter both ground + air openers because you can have queen's tank zealot shots while your lings surround them and you cant kit queens that have ling support with your stalkers anymore, you would just end up getting overrun. The combination of transfusion + a good creep spread makes any gateway pressure build very risky.. so basically zerg's can do extremely eco-orientated builds such as a 3hatch into ling speed into a 4th hatch while holding off 4gate pressures now, once they hold the attack off they can start producing drones from 4hatchs which would give them a huge econ advantage, by playing this style zerg also gains alot of flexibility because of the map control that they get by having 2-3 extra queens spreading creep around the map
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote: zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
Do you think that those few extra edges that it could give might make that big roach timing that most zergs are doing lately even harder to hold off or do you feel as if the effects on that would be so minimal it would make no difference?
i feel they would be weaker seeing how if you make roaches to defend these kind of timings you actually get the roaches and keep them for later where as queens provide nothing to boost your army later on either going the extra queens style for defenses will make most sense to transition into something defensive macro oriented where the creep boost actually means alot for you
it would be much stronger because your 4th hatch would be up quicker so you could drone up ALOT faster than normal, once the pressure is held off u saturate all ur bases and make extra gas's(5 or 6 gases instead of the normal 4 which was the standard thing to do for a 200/200 roach allin) to make up for not mining any gas in the early game, i didnt test it but i would assume that you would also be able to take a 4th if you were to play this style + do a 200 200 mass roach push because of the huge econ boost that u gain from the early game, makes the roach push much less allinish and theoretically it should be as fast as stephanos normal 200 200 roach push
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure.
5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae.
300 minerals is 10% of your worker count at 12 minutes.
5 queens does 4 doesnt
i think delayed gas b.os are more viable now but i dont it would be too efficient if the zerg was to roach tech after that seeing as roach speed would be heavily delayed, it makes the zerg super susceptible to 2base timings.. teching into 3 base ling infestor/ling muta(not very safe if ur not sure ur up against a 2basing toss) or bane ling makes more sense cus u could hold off timing pushs while ecoing up, even tho making lings in the early game is extremely larva intensive having a 4th hatch makes up for it and u could then power up really fast while having good creep spread + a strong eco
What do you say to the people who argue that Zergs lack of success against Protoss in the GSL this season indicates that balance actually favors the Protoss? Not necessarily an argument I believe in but what is your take on it?
Would not be surprised if a buff made for early game ZvT create still more shit play for ZvP. I feel TvZ is fine, just get 6 hellions instead of 4, and queens wont come bogger you.
I can't see how it affects 4 gate pressure. By the time you pressure the 3rd (for me its 7.30-7.40 7 zealots) they can max have 2 queens. And + 2 range doesnt really aid them with killing zealots.
zerg is a lot more fragile early game, with this buff it is gonna be easier for it to hold early agression. I believe protoss players will strugle with it for a while, but not so much of a deal
I would say it is also harder to scout for Protoss, queens have much higher chance of killing the probes than now cause u can go around the creep but since they have much more range it is much easier for ur probe to get killed.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but could you at least post some replays or something to back up your point? A +2 range buff is a big deal, but a 5ish queen opening being able to shut down all early game pressure sounds like an exaggeration.
Would a better buff have been 4 range queens? On hand that would give protoss/terran the chance to kite again, but on the other zerg needs a little more solid defense so this buff is kind of needed in this regard. Also you can still nulify queens with phoenixes.
How is this even going to effect void ray/phoenix openings? Wasn't the range buff only for the ground attack? Queen damage wasn't changed either so I don't see why pressures would be that much less effective. Sure the queen might get in a few extra hits, but it is highly unlikely that it would make a major difference in a fight.
On May 12 2012 07:34 mTwTT1 wrote: Protoss HAS to do be able to harass zerg in the early game or else they fall behind in eco
So, you want to sit and fatten your ass the first 10 minutes of departure, without attacking, without pressure or anything like that ... and supposedly have everything from head to win.
Sorry if I exaggerate, but to pretend to equal or exceed a Zerg economically without doing nothing seems a little stupid. The main advantage of the Zerg race is oriented economy and macro.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Eee wrote: how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground.
this ^ i dont understand they say voids and phoenixs got worse when nothing changed in the air range lol...
The argument is that the increased viability of queens for defending ground will motivate the zerg to build more queens. As a consequence, the zerg will be more prepared for air attacks as well.
Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
does blizzard even test their own "balancing" ? or do they just let two bots fight each other and look what happens? srsly zerg has so many options which made it op from the fucking beginning of this game. it was just not used , zerg has the most tricks to "fu you up" with nydus overlord drop and shit but zergs were always to greedy and stupid, to use all of that stuff and could only say " omg we waste units me need mass drones" , violet has even proven 2 base zerg is strong using different unit comps.
and fix tvp lategame OR I WILL CALL DAY9 CAUSE HE IS A GOD DAMN BALANCE DESIGNER!
Yeah Payam, I agree here. The range upgade will make probe scouting and early zealot shanengians useless. I think you are Protoss players, are supposed to play some Stargate play now, just to put up some pressure. I guess Warpprism will get worse too.
I don't really get why even queens are buffed. Helion openings are not too strong or anything. Zergs are rather having a low winratio against Terran, because of marines than this issue.
On May 12 2012 07:40 GizmoPT wrote: isnt the range buff only in ground ?
yes but by making queens u have an anti counter to both ground + air builds now, queens are tanky units so u can have them absorb all the zealot shots while surrounding them with ur lings, also by having that many queens zerg's can start creep spreading insanely fast aswell, engaging on creep is suicide =/
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote: Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
Just to add to this, almost every player I've ever heard comment on TT1's style is that he is insanely greedy.
Against protoss queens are pretty bad for dps anyways (die to 1 zealot), I think the bigger problem is zvt where hellions are almost useless earlygame.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Eee wrote: how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground.
it makes making queens viable in any situation now, zerg had to gas up before so they could hold off 4gate pressures with roachs but now they dont need to do that anymore
@ OP HAHA, now all the protosses get to feel how terrans feel when you can't attack while the other expands in the beginning of the game, finally retribution GO ZERG.
On May 12 2012 07:47 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: too soon to say I think...
Against protoss queens are pretty bad for dps anyways (die to 1 zealot), I think the bigger problem is zvt where hellions are almost useless earlygame.
queens are ment to tank vs 4gate pressure, with transfusion + a good creep spread u can hold off any 4gate pressure super effectively.. so u could basically open 3hatch into ling speed into a 4th hatch before lairing up now, once u hold the pressure off u can start droning up with 4 hatchs while spreading creep all over the map, gives u so much map control
On May 12 2012 07:47 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: too soon to say I think...
Against protoss queens are pretty bad for dps anyways (die to 1 zealot), I think the bigger problem is zvt where hellions are almost useless earlygame.
It's just 1 spinecrawler and 5 queens with like 2-3 transfuse can most likely handle most pressures.
TT1, it always seems like you are so quick to judge and criticize everything. Give it some time. Let strategies develop around it before you completely bash it into the ground. In time, it might not be a big deal at all, or you might be right. But to just announce it as bad right away is a poor way of dealing with the new changes.
What about the extra range has made them more viable at holding 4 gates that they couldn't do it previously? The extra surface area they have on a unit? Seems unusual.
On May 12 2012 07:40 GizmoPT wrote: isnt the range buff only in ground ?
yes but by making queens u have an anti counter to both ground + air builds now, queens are tanky units so u can have them absorb all the zealot shots while surrounding them with ur lings, also by having that many queens zerg's can start creep spreading insanely fast aswell, engaging on creep is suicide =/
Could you cut off the lings and queens using force fields? I'd imagine if you seperate them they would be pretty easy to take on.
On May 12 2012 07:54 Dingobloo wrote: What about the extra range has made them more viable at holding 4 gates that they couldn't do it previously? The extra surface area they have on a unit? Seems unusual.
you cant kite 5range queens + lings on creep and the extra shots they get off on your zealots is huge
Doesn't really affect ZvP at all really, if Z wastes money on extra queens they don't have enough drones to support the roaches needed to defend the 2 base all ins that 90% of toss still do these days, much less max out after that. 5 queens is 150+150 extra. That's a potential 6 drones. Don't even try to tell me that 2 extra queens aids enough in defending 2 base all ins to justify wasting 300 minerals that could have been drones.
It's pretty broken for both T and P. Blizzard balance team honestly seems to not understand how powerful range is in this game (or any strategy game really). They throw it around like it's nothing.
This makes no sense. The only thing that would make this somehow inbalanced is because people.... actually build more? The extra 2 range doesn't make much of a difference against gateway pressure. What if Day[9] just told people to always build 6 queens before the range buff. That would also have broken the game?
Considering this comes from TT1, I have a hard time taking it seriously.
Cannon rush the expansion, go +1 zealot rush, do a 6 gate + robo to cause your damage or, you know, go void rays. The GROUND RANGE BUFF does not affect VRs into phoenix whatsoever.
I agree with TT1, most of the people who are against him are just trying to discredit him without any argument. If you dont harass the zerg you will fall behind in eco easily. Queen buffs make pressure so much difficult and zergs had no problem holding it off until now. With the terran case it was a contain that limited the economy that now is easily broken with a couple of queens. Both vZ no mirrors tried to limit the eco, difference is when does zerg takes a third. One u can control it with a contain, and in PvZ u need to harass because they take a really early third (and nothing is wrong with that), they just should not defend it that easily
Cannon rush the expansion, go +1 zealot rush, do a 6 gate + robo to cause your damage or, you know, go void rays. The GROUND RANGE BUFF does not affect VRs into phoenix whatsoever.
No good zerg that is paying attention will let let his 3rd be cannon rushed, u cannot rely on that
On May 12 2012 07:41 Eee wrote: how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground.
this ^ i dont understand they say voids and phoenixs got worse when nothing changed in the air range lol...
Really? It's not that hard to understand. Queens can now defend both ground and air attacks, thus making many queens is always good, thus phoenix+voidray is worse.
On May 12 2012 07:56 Spandy87 wrote: Doesn't really affect ZvP at all really, if Z wastes money on extra queens they don't have enough drones to support the roaches needed to defend the 2 base all ins that 90% of toss still do these days, much less max out after that. 5 queens is 150+150 extra. That's a potential 6 drones. Don't even try to tell me that 2 extra queens aids enough in defending 2 base all ins to justify wasting 300 minerals that could have been drones.
Huh? They are also larva free, and with the range buff having a few behind your roaches is definitely going to be good. Building extra queens is definitely worth it.
On May 12 2012 07:57 Jinsho wrote: Considering this comes from TT1, I have a hard time taking it seriously.
Cannon rush the expansion, go +1 zealot rush, do a 6 gate + robo to cause your damage or, you know, go void rays. The GROUND RANGE BUFF does not affect VRs into phoenix whatsoever.
He doesn't talk about 2 base allins at all. He rather talks about 7-8 min pressure openings after a FFE. Not All-in at all.
On May 12 2012 07:40 GizmoPT wrote: isnt the range buff only in ground ?
yes but by making queens u have an anti counter to both ground + air builds now, queens are tanky units so u can have them absorb all the zealot shots while surrounding them with ur lings, also by having that many queens zerg's can start creep spreading insanely fast aswell, engaging on creep is suicide =/
Essentially this is good then, maybe zergs were supposed to build more queens prior to this patch, and we can take this as a metagame shift, rather than "so because Queens have 5 Range GtG->Zerg Makes more Queens->More Queens beat Stargate->Stargate not viable/Less viable.
It feels like I can't stop zerg creep spread now but it doesn't really matter because 1 rax fe double gas builds with a fast third and double ebays are just wayy to fucking strong right now. I macro terribly because this is my first season as terran but I still end up with too much 2/2 or 3/3 marines medivacs and tanks for zerg to handle at like 14 mins in.
As a Zerg player, I have noted that basically nothing has changed with my ovies, they are generally just where I want them to be a little bit faster, but I don't use them any differently since the change.
Queens are nicer, but again, I use them the same way. They are a bit better at zoning in ZvT and significantly better at denying scouts to my main. Both welcome changes, but not of huge impact really.
All in all, I would call both changes "quality of life" changes. I don't gain any new crazy functions or utilities, but using the units in the same way I am already using them generally gives me better results.
The one thing that queens can't deal with compared to roaches now in the early game is guardian shield. 4x2 queen attacks become (4- 2 [guardian] - 1 [armour])x2, That's two damage per attack for 100 hp per zealot.
Sadly the queen range really makes +1 zealot a lot easier to hold which makes the protoss a lot more predictable, since it's the only effective pressure with a funky early timing. Everything else comes out at (very) roughly the same time.
On May 12 2012 07:34 mTwTT1 wrote: Protoss HAS to do be able to harass zerg in the early game or else they fall behind in eco
So, you want to sit and fatten your ass the first 10 minutes of departure, without attacking, without pressure or anything like that ... and supposedly have everything from head to win.
Sorry if I exaggerate, but to pretend to equal or exceed a Zerg economically without doing nothing seems a little stupid. The main advantage of the Zerg race is oriented economy and macro.
Way to totally take a qoute out of context and then argue against it o.O. He said that because of the queen buff harass is not (as) viable any more, and then followed up with that protoss has to do harass, thus he implies that protoss now are up in ZvP. Your post had nothing to do with that.
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote: Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
The buff is another stupid change that try to cover a shitload of mistakes in base design. As a P i noticed the same that TT1 states.
I'm not aganist a buff (overlord buff is fair). But the queen buff is stupid cose it fucks one of the few smartest things about PvZ which is controling the "sac units for drone production" early game stuff.
Btw, i understand the hellion map-control and blinding the z issue. But as many others, this is another design misstep to cover the crap istead of fixing it.
Umm, if you do a simple zealot pressure, and you see 4-5 queens, you walk away and take a third base... if Zerg delays tech so much to get a bunch of queens out, roach speed will not be done in time to deny the third base with the initial 160 food push a la Stephano (which initially kills the third, and then about a minute later Stephano is maxed).
My god, people act like we just make 5 queens for free without taking drone cuts or delaying tech...
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote: Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not.
He's a pro gamer so what?
He is immune to being wrong now?
Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another.
On May 12 2012 07:40 GizmoPT wrote: isnt the range buff only in ground ?
yes but by making queens u have an anti counter to both ground + air builds now, queens are tanky units so u can have them absorb all the zealot shots while surrounding them with ur lings, also by having that many queens zerg's can start creep spreading insanely fast aswell, engaging on creep is suicide =/
Could you cut off the lings and queens using force fields? I'd imagine if you seperate them they would be pretty easy to take on.
If you have too many sentries for early pressure you won't have enough fire power to actually deal damage to the queens. You'd also have to micro the sentries so far back to prevent them from dying that they wouldn't do any damage at all and any kind of damage and tanking is important for Protoss with early attacks. Every unit counts at that stage. TT1 really has a point here.
Also, creep spread pretty much negates any early pressure relying on force fields.
so since the 5 range attack is for ground and she "shoots" on ground, is it considered +1 on ranged attack from the evo or still on melee, cuz most ranged zerg units have a ranged shot and animation while having an up close attack n animation i.e Roach acid but up close its swipes with his claws
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote: zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
I think the main problem is in TvZ , all of my hellion openings seem to be useless (same goes for forgg, he was losing to multiple jackthejoe random NA highmaster in a row), and banshee openings are also harder to do because zergs tend to have more queens since they work so well vs both low marine counts and hellions.
On May 12 2012 08:05 Mvrio wrote: so since the 5 range attack is for ground and she "shoots" on ground, is it considered +1 on ranged attack from the evo or still on melee, cuz most ranged zerg units have a ranged shot and animation while having an up close attack n animation i.e Roach acid but up close its swipes with his claws
Queens always benefit from Range, before the patch and after.
Queens always do a ranged attack. Going by liquipedia anyways. Roach and hydra melee attacks bypass guardian shield but still always benefit from ranged upgrades, if you're looking for an interesting tidbit. If they're wrong then I'm wrong here, of course.
On May 12 2012 08:05 Mvrio wrote: so since the 5 range attack is for ground and she "shoots" on ground, is it considered +1 on ranged attack from the evo or still on melee, cuz most ranged zerg units have a ranged shot and animation while having an up close attack n animation i.e Roach acid but up close its swipes with his claws
The queen melee was always buffed by ranged attack.
I'd love to hear what the progamers think it will do to +1 zealot pressure. The range change and also the unmentioned change where apparently they are better at stutter stepping, now.
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote: Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not.
He's a pro gamer so what?
He is immune to being wrong now?
Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another.
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote: Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not.
He's a pro gamer so what?
He is immune to being wrong now?
Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another.
Read what i responded to plz.
You should read what you responded to. I said leave it to the top pros to figure it out. Did I say I was a top pro? Did I make any generalizations or statements in regards to balance? Nope! I just feel like there's a good number of low tier pro gamers that don't do much but whine and look for excuses. It used to be BW was the better game but I think they've gotten over that by now.
zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
A fair analysis
looking forward to seeing what T pros come up with... without hellions being able to delay the third as long or force roaches, TvZ macro games do seem like they'll be way harder now.
I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth base?
For a protoss that's highly map dependent. Any map where it works is probably reaching towards being imbalanced for protoss.
Even if it "breaks" the current meta game, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced. I do feel it makes scouting for zerg too simple compared to the other two races, hell drone scouting is almost unnecessary on more than half the maps now. Overall, it will change the meta game, what type of aggression and possibly even builds that are effective, but not necessarily make zerg overpowered. Time will tell with win ratios. Any large unit change is annoying, because it will require to make adjustments to your play style, but again, it doesn't make it imbalanced, just make some races have to work harder to adjust to the game.
Just to summarize: just because our current builds/timings aren't as effective anymore, doesn't mean there are other timings that won't work.
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?
This is because zerg will always have a better eco then a toss when both are playing as greedy as possible. This is because of the larva mechanic. They can build 3-4 drones per hatch while toss builds 2 probes per nexus (chronoboost). You will never be able to outproduce zerg workerwise.
The thing that I dislike the most is that I can not kite a queen with my stalker anymore. This makes early 1 zeal 1 stalker pressure useless, which results in zergs being able to getting less early game lings and more drones.
Can we just be honest here, It isn't the queen that's breaking this match up. It's the must buy Mothership, Toss is forced into buying, because of the current Zerg death ball. Terran has a similar late game right now vs toss, this whole version of sc2 is limiting blah blah blah, BW has an expansion its not fair.
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote: Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not.
He's a pro gamer so what?
He is immune to being wrong now?
Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another.
Read what i responded to plz.
You should read what you responded to. I said leave it to the top pros to figure it out. Did I say I was a top pro? Did I make any generalizations or statements in regards to balance? Nope! I just feel like there's a good number of low tier pro gamers that don't do much but whine and look for excuses. It used to be BW was the better game but I think they've gotten over that by now.
I can agree that he should have waited to see if his theory is correct or not. But practising a lot and being on a team and so gives you a insight of the "state of the game". Your comment gave me the impression that he somehow had flawed understanding and couldn't be taken seriously because he don't win tournaments.
I feel this will limit the use of terran micro early game. Reapers will die to queens off creep now. hellions will die to queens off creep now. I think hellions will still be made, but i believe we have seen our last reaper in TvZ (or at least if you don't go mass reaper builds, but they are rarely seen anyways). This goes against what blizzard has said about wanting a more skill based game, and makes me a sad panda (or reaper). As a zerg and terran player, i have not felt the need for this change. For ZvP it does not matter so much, since stalkers still outrange queens. First they took my ghost snipe TvT build, now they take my reaper TvZ build. please stop blizzard, it's enough now, even flash says so
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?
This is because zerg will always have a better eco then a toss when both are playing as greedy as possible. This is because of the larva mechanic. They can build 3-4 drones per hatch while toss builds 2 probes per nexus (chronoboost). You will never be able to outproduce zerg workerwise.
Ok, but it still gives you a better situation than taking a slower third, yes? Getting a quick third and then powering up tech/upgrades would seem to me to be the way to go vs a super greedy Zerg. Anyway, it's just a thought.
I don't understand how the range change is a problem in PvZ. Queens have always been good against zealots, and the range buff doesn't make then much better at all.
I suppose it buffs zerg vs 2 gate stalker openings without zealots, but I hardly ever, EVER see that opening.
I guess another thing someone might be thinking of is sentries, but I couldn't imagine getting enough queens to deal with any amount of stalker-sentry-zealot that a protoss would move out with.
You can't always take a quick third because speedlings are faster than zealots and stalkers and trying to defend two expansions on most maps means you have to leave your defensive position. It's that simple.
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?
This is because zerg will always have a better eco then a toss when both are playing as greedy as possible. This is because of the larva mechanic. They can build 3-4 drones per hatch while toss builds 2 probes per nexus (chronoboost). You will never be able to outproduce zerg workerwise.
Ok, but it still gives you a better situation than taking a slower third, yes? Getting a quick third and then powering up tech/upgrades would seem to me to be the way to go vs a super greedy Zerg. Anyway, it's just a thought.
Nope.
A super greedy Zerg can still max out at 12 minutes. How do you defend that on three bases at 12 minutes? You can't. You won't have nearly enough if you want any kind of meaningful saturation at these three bases. Anyways, this is getting off topic now.
On May 12 2012 08:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I mean, if you can't seem to pressure Zerg, and they skimp on units even more to get better eco, why not turn around and do the same, getting a super fast third, or even fourth (this is probably way too risky) base?
Because when I take a super fast third, I sacrifice units for that. Zerg just needs to throw down a Roach Warren and cut Drones if he wants to overrun me. Protoss can't go Gate Nexus Nexus against Zerg for a reason.
While I do find it easier to hold early aggression, wasn't that the intention of this buff? Blizzard felt it was to hard for zerg to hold early aggression so they implemented this. If it truely is broken we will see a change.
reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
To be perfectly honest, it's to early to be talking about the impact on this.
The problem most protoss and Terrans are facing now is probably a combination of the faster overlords and the improved queens and not just queens alone. There will be a transition phase both races will have to take before they feel "comfortable" again.
The problem however will be if the transition phase never ends. That protoss and Terran players would feel worse off after the changes was a given. Have some patience.
What harass could you even do anyways? 1 stalker and zealot poke? Void ray harass? 4 gate +1 zealots should never do damage anyways if zergs don't play greedy... Like I don't see whats the big deal abou this change..
Zerg needed a buff, everyone knows that. Buffing a queen range by (2) and ovie speed -( which is the most important buff )- will not break the game.
On May 12 2012 07:47 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: too soon to say I think...
Against protoss queens are pretty bad for dps anyways (die to 1 zealot), I think the bigger problem is zvt where hellions are almost useless earlygame.
It's just 1 spinecrawler and 5 queens with like 2-3 transfuse can most likely handle most pressures.
That wouldn't have changed if queens didn't have ground range, seeing as how you'd be trying to surround the stalkers with the lings and still kite zealots with the queens...
Is it really already time to jump all over this and yell "OP"? Or is it entirely possible that you could put a little more time into figuring out something new/different?
On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote: i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.
It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
Also, TT1 talks about pressure builds. A 4 gate without expansion against Zerg is an all-in (a horrible one that as Kefka has pointed out hasn't worked since back in the day). That's not what TT1 is talking about in my opinion.
When they delay Gas for so long, why not do a DT drop in the main and kill the main?even if there is one Spore there it melts to 4+ Dt's. They are good for defense aswell.
On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote: i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.
It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
the issue is not dying to it, the point of a 4gate build was to force the zerg into mining gas in order to hurt their eco a bit and force them into making gas intensive units so u could delay their lair, upgrades, a 4th hatchery etc., by doing that the protoss opens alot of opportunities for himself
On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote: i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.
It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
the issue is not dying to them, the point of 4gate builds was to force zerg into mining gas so u hurt their eco a bit and force them into making gas intensive units in order to delay their lair, upgrades, a 4th hatchery etc.
He isn't talking about 1 base 4 gate just so you know, he is talking about 2 base +1 weapons 4 gate.
On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote: i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.
It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
the issue is not dying to them, the point of 4gate builds was to force zerg into mining gas so u hurt their eco a bit and force them into making gas intensive units in order to delay their lair, upgrades, a 4th hatchery etc.
He isn't talking about 1 base 4 gate just so you know, he is talking about 2 base +1 weapons 4 gate.
if he thought i was talking about a 1base 4gate then i regret replying to his post
On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote: reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
Yeah lol way to soon to judge. But I am not surprised, like every patch other races cry or whatever then in a week it's all forgotten ^^.
On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote: i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.
It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
the issue is not dying to them, the point of 4gate builds was to force zerg into mining gas so u hurt their eco a bit and force them into making gas intensive units in order to delay their lair, upgrades, a 4th hatchery etc.
He isn't talking about 1 base 4 gate just so you know, he is talking about 2 base +1 weapons 4 gate.
if he thought i was talking about a 1base 4gate then i regret replying to his post
On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote: reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
Yeah lol way to soon to judge. But I am not surprised, like every patch other races cry or whatever then in a week it's all forgotten ^^.
On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote: i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious.
It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
the issue is not dying to them, the point of 4gate builds was to force zerg into mining gas so u hurt their eco a bit and force them into making gas intensive units in order to delay their lair, upgrades, a 4th hatchery etc.
He isn't talking about 1 base 4 gate just so you know, he is talking about 2 base +1 weapons 4 gate.
if he thought i was talking about a 1base 4gate then i regret replying to his post
lol ye i just assumed it was FFE=>4gate you were talking about. then i got worried when i read the other ppls comments and said to myself "tt1, really?" haha
definitely an effect, but not really that bad? I like the buff as a protoss, makes queen use more viable and so I get to stop playing vs idiots who mass roaches and then hit my colo/sentry/immo/blink army and cry imbalance. Perhaps that will change a bit, sad that in high leagues people still mass roaches and pray for wins.
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote: zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
Do you think that those few extra edges that it could give might make that big roach timing that most zergs are doing lately even harder to hold off or do you feel as if the effects on that would be so minimal it would make no difference?
On May 12 2012 08:40 NeMeSiS3 wrote: definitely an effect, but not really that bad? I like the buff as a protoss, makes queen use more viable and so I get to stop playing vs idiots who mass roaches and then hit my colo/sentry/immo/blink army and cry imbalance. Perhaps that will change a bit, sad that in high leagues people still mass roaches and pray for wins.
So imho, this is only good.
I'd like to see you playing against Stephano, if you really think like this...
It's just to early to actually say anything concrete. Wait a few weeks and then come back. Terran and Protoss have to adjust their game play and get accustomed to the changes before anything really can be said about the situation.
On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote: reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
Yeah lol way to soon to judge. But I am not surprised, like every patch other races cry or whatever then in a week it's all forgotten ^^.
I do agree that the discussion about a change itself decreases with time (obviously) but that doesn't mean discussion now is not valuable or the change will be forgotten. This here is pinpointing a certain concern with the change and how to deal with it. Nothing wrong with that and nothing "lol"-worthy in my opinion.
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote: zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
Do you think that those few extra edges that it could give might make that big roach timing that most zergs are doing lately even harder to hold off or do you feel as if the effects on that would be so minimal it would make no difference?
i feel they would be weaker seeing how if you make roaches to defend these kind of timings you actually get the roaches and keep them for later where as queens provide nothing to boost your army later on either going the extra queens style for defenses will make most sense to transition into something defensive macro oriented where the creep boost actually means alot for you
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote: zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
Do you think that those few extra edges that it could give might make that big roach timing that most zergs are doing lately even harder to hold off or do you feel as if the effects on that would be so minimal it would make no difference?
i feel they would be weaker seeing how if you make roaches to defend these kind of timings you actually get the roaches and keep them for later where as queens provide nothing to boost your army later on either going the extra queens style for defenses will make most sense to transition into something defensive macro oriented where the creep boost actually means alot for you
@MorroW, you are actually one of the few that plays cross race during professional events, whats your take on the whole situation regarding Terran vs Zerg? Edit: shit you just did in the post I quoted T.T ignore my post please.
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote: zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
Do you think that those few extra edges that it could give might make that big roach timing that most zergs are doing lately even harder to hold off or do you feel as if the effects on that would be so minimal it would make no difference?
i feel they would be weaker seeing how if you make roaches to defend these kind of timings you actually get the roaches and keep them for later where as queens provide nothing to boost your army later on either going the extra queens style for defenses will make most sense to transition into something defensive macro oriented where the creep boost actually means alot for you
it would be much stronger because your 4th hatch would be up quicker so you could drone up ALOT faster than normal, once the pressure is held off u saturate all ur bases and make extra gas's(5 or 6 gases instead of the normal 4 which was the standard thing to do for a 200/200 roach allin) to make up for not mining any gas in the early game, i didnt test it but i would assume that you would also be able to take a 4th if you were to play this style + do a 200 200 mass roach push because of the huge econ boost that u gain from the early game, makes the roach push much less allinish and theoretically it should be as fast as stephanos normal 200 200 roach push
What can I say? Go figure out how to deal with it protoss and terran players. You guys can just suck it up imo.
Zergs have been figuring out stuff on their own for a LOOOOOOONG time now about dealing with silly stuff the P and T can do. It's your turn now..lol so stop this nonsense.
Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff? Hell no. Not even close to this T and P whinefest.
On May 12 2012 08:56 Gackt_ wrote: Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff?
Oh god yes, it was terrible, like every patch makes 66% of the community whine horribly, even for the silliest things
The thing I hate the most with that change is that they didn't take time to test it, they were like "hey, what if queens had 5 range?... oh looks good, gogo change it on bnet before anyone can react!"
On May 12 2012 08:56 Gackt_ wrote: What can I say? Go figure out how to deal with it protoss and terran players. You guys can just suck it up imo.
Zergs have been figuring out stuff on their own for a LOOOOOOONG time now about dealing with silly stuff the P and T can do. It's your turn now..lol so stop this nonsense.
Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff? Hell no. Not even close to this T and P whinefest.
This figuring out BS should've made me ignore your post altogether, so useless, but ..immortal range buff happened to protoss to deal with 1-1-1 better, of course zergs didn't complain much.
If zerg delays his gas and gets four or five queens, he has no ability to put any amount of pressure on. I mean what is he going to do, attack with slow lings? So you can exploit that by going for double upgrades, taking a fast third, skimping on units, etc.
1) Queens can't kite cause they are still too slow...Doesn't matter if they have 2 range more or not, the zealot and stalker will catch up.
2) Minirals are quite limited when do a 3 hatch opening. If you've noticed, alot of zerg usually get their third queen when the third is done instead of getting it while the third is building. This is because you can barely support all the larva -> drone AND hatchery production. Getting more queens early is ironically going to cut into your drone production and when that is the case you might as well get roaches cause they are alot better fighting units.
3) Does TT1 ever not complain about balance? It's litterally been ½-1½ day and the fact that you called the replicator like everyone and their dog doesn't really change that. The game is as balanced as it gets and when something gets out of line it will get change at some point, like always. If this is too good it's gonna be changed back - but it's not gonna be changed based on your "Yo I have played 10 games vs zergs and I called the replicator being removed so plz do as I say" comments. If you even had the decency to wait like a week or heck even a month I might just have listened but meh...I'm so tired of your complaints.
I miss the days when it was ettique among pro players not to open their month about balance (Basically in any other RTS game I have played) cause they know better and have a better mindset. I dunno why SC2 has this crybaby mentality - both among pros AND the community. I guess it's cause Blizzard has made the mistake of listening to people and now everyone feel it's their right to explain why they are losing on the ladder
How many queens can you have out by the time the 4gate +1 zealots come?
And does the range make a big difference if you have 4-5 there?, Since I feel like they would be hard to micro more than they are already capable of without taking much damage, and if they just tank the damage, the range upgrade is invalid.
But as for your 4gate pressure, lets say, zerg opens mass queen, and you go for a really fast 3rd nexus, he can't apply pressure because he doesn't have any gas.
Mass queens are defensive, if someone makes a lot of defense, you don't attack into it, same reason why after X protoss all in that destroyed the 3rd of zerg, I've seen a lot of protoss just run into 7 spines at the zergs natural, basicly resetting the game.
In short, you shouldn't attack someone whos going for heavy defenses, it might be hard to scout though.
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote: zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well. its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore. terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further. if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting. if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking. zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
Do you think that those few extra edges that it could give might make that big roach timing that most zergs are doing lately even harder to hold off or do you feel as if the effects on that would be so minimal it would make no difference?
i feel they would be weaker seeing how if you make roaches to defend these kind of timings you actually get the roaches and keep them for later where as queens provide nothing to boost your army later on either going the extra queens style for defenses will make most sense to transition into something defensive macro oriented where the creep boost actually means alot for you
it would be much stronger because your 4th hatch would be up quicker so you could drone up ALOT faster than normal, once the pressure is held off u saturate all ur bases and make extra gas's(5 or 6 gases instead of the normal 4 which was the standard thing to do for a 200/200 roach allin) to make up for not mining any gas in the early game, i didnt test it but i would assume that you would also be able to take a 4th if you were to play this style + do a 200 200 mass roach push because of the huge econ boost that u gain from the early game, makes the roach push much less allinish and theoretically it should be as fast as stephanos normal 200 200 roach push
you make it sound like queens suddenly rape zealots with +1
i didnt actually see this much in practice yet. are they actually that much better?
have to sleep soon but cant to wait to try out all this stuff tomorrow. the queens are not only directly better but also can be microed much better seeing how they have more hp than roaches and same dps (except once u get through the shields where queens dps decrease alot) along with transfuses and the longer range maybe its pretty sick
i tried some spine evo sim citying and queen defenses today but toss didnt commit so didnt get to see how it played out but id imagine its pretty cool stuff
queens are always cool way to defend with because they arent useless once the pressure is over
The biggest issue with the queen buff comes in TvZ, where terran rely on early harass, which queens are designed to deal with. With PvZ its hard to see this being an issue, especially as protoss relies on push-based aggression, not harass, and queen's dps capabilities are next to useless against that. The only problem from protoss perspective is that it is much harder to keep the probe scout alive early on, not much else has changed.
I don't want to take side, especially because I am T and don't have a real understanding of the matchup at pro level, but please learn to read an OP... There are been already 5 or 6 people posting "derp, queens can't kite" or "herp, zelniq already proved than queens are unable to kite"... when TT1 is speaking about stalker+zealot kitting lings + queen on creep, not the other way. P.S.: Sorry for murdering the mother language of Shakespeare.
I find it very cute how Terran and Protoss are whining about how their early game pressures aren't as effective now. Zerg pretty much doesn't have any early game pressure that isn't either a huge risk or all-in against Terran and Protoss.
Protoss should not be questioning buffs to Zerg at all. Protoss players should just keep quiet and hope to not get nerfed. If Blizzard watches GSL at all, which I'm sure they do, a Protoss nerf is incoming.
On May 12 2012 08:56 Gackt_ wrote: What can I say? Go figure out how to deal with it protoss and terran players. You guys can just suck it up imo.
Zergs have been figuring out stuff on their own for a LOOOOOOONG time now about dealing with silly stuff the P and T can do. It's your turn now..lol so stop this nonsense.
Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff? Hell no. Not even close to this T and P whinefest.
This figuring out BS should've made me ignore your post altogether, so useless, but ..immortal range buff happened to protoss to deal with 1-1-1 better, of course zergs didn't complain much.
so what u say is that the immortal range buff didnt affect the ZvP and therfor no complainments? Cuz it sure as hell did. Thats like as if I were to say "This Queen buff is supposed to deal with early terran harass better and therefor it's okay for protoss" which in fact it should be. Right? lol
On May 12 2012 09:21 knOxStarcraft wrote: Protoss should not be questioning buffs to Zerg at all. Protoss players should just keep quiet and hope to not get nerfed. If Blizzard watches GSL at all, which I'm sure they do, a Protoss nerf is incoming.
They can't nerf Protoss. Too busy nerfing Terran directly and indirectly.
On topic, anybody notice any extra denial of scouting by Zerg? Sure, the obvious is that probes can't dance around as well in the early game, but with increased AA coverage from having more queen defense, does that actually hinder hallucinate/observer scouting as well?
i dont think TT1 read about the changes, Queens were given more range in order to help hold early game defenses
aside from 4 gate though i dont see how mass queens is going to actually hold any concentrated attack its not like mass queen would ever hold off 7 gate
On May 12 2012 09:21 knOxStarcraft wrote: Protoss should not be questioning buffs to Zerg at all. Protoss players should just keep quiet and hope to not get nerfed. If Blizzard watches GSL at all, which I'm sure they do, a Protoss nerf is incoming.
They can't nerf Protoss. Too busy nerfing Terran directly and indirectly.
On topic, anybody notice any extra denial of scouting by Zerg? Sure, the obvious is that probes can't dance around as well in the early game, but with increased AA coverage from having more queen defense, does that actually hinder hallucinate/observer scouting as well?
It doesnt affect hallucinate/observer as buff is on for anti-ground attack. It does affacet probe scouting, easier to kill and easier to deny info by the zerg.
On May 12 2012 09:20 Enhancer_ wrote: I find it very cute how Terran and Protoss are whining about how their early game pressures aren't as effective now. Zerg pretty much doesn't have any early game pressure that isn't either a huge risk or all-in against Terran and Protoss.
Because T & P can make drones/probes/scvs by round of 10, right ? This kind of comparisons are silly and probably belong to the Blizzard forums. What make this game great is that there are different mechanisms for the 3 races.
"Zerg pretty much doesn't have any early game pressure that isn't either a huge risk or all-in against Terran and Protoss." Yeah ? That's the goal. Because with no pressure on both sides, a Z will be maxed long before their T or P counterpart.
On May 12 2012 09:21 knOxStarcraft wrote: Protoss should not be questioning buffs to Zerg at all. Protoss players should just keep quiet and hope to not get nerfed. If Blizzard watches GSL at all, which I'm sure they do, a Protoss nerf is incoming.
They can't nerf Protoss. Too busy nerfing Terran directly and indirectly.
On topic, anybody notice any extra denial of scouting by Zerg? Sure, the obvious is that probes can't dance around as well in the early game, but with increased AA coverage from having more queen defense, does that actually hinder hallucinate/observer scouting as well?
It doesnt affect hallucinate/observer as buff is on for anti-ground attack. It does affacet probe scouting, easier to kill and easier to deny info by the zerg.
when t comes to probe scouting all you want to know is if they dropped a third which a queen wont deny anyway
and with a tiny itty bit of micro youll get a full scout of there main with probe anyway
On May 12 2012 09:34 Forikorder wrote: i dont think TT1 read about the changes, Queens were given more range in order to help hold early game defenses
aside from 4 gate though i dont see how mass queens is going to actually hold any concentrated attack its not like mass queen would ever hold off 7 gate
I think the point is that the fear of defending certain openings prevented Zergs from getting habitually greedy. They would have to make more or less long term investments to cover their build from potential game ending build orders. With the increased strength of queens, this means their long term investments go from making noncompounding investments (aggressive/defensive units) to compounding investments (drones/queens). Overcompensating for a push now doesn't punish the Zerg as much, if at all, making their entrance into mid or lategame even stronger, allowing them to hold these pushes even better.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing.
On May 12 2012 09:21 knOxStarcraft wrote: Protoss should not be questioning buffs to Zerg at all. Protoss players should just keep quiet and hope to not get nerfed. If Blizzard watches GSL at all, which I'm sure they do, a Protoss nerf is incoming.
They can't nerf Protoss. Too busy nerfing Terran directly and indirectly.
On topic, anybody notice any extra denial of scouting by Zerg? Sure, the obvious is that probes can't dance around as well in the early game, but with increased AA coverage from having more queen defense, does that actually hinder hallucinate/observer scouting as well?
It doesnt affect hallucinate/observer as buff is on for anti-ground attack. It does affacet probe scouting, easier to kill and easier to deny info by the zerg.
I know the air attack is unchanged, but with the ground buff, this means Zerg is more inclined to get more earlier to defend from ground aggression. This means they have better AA coverage around their base.
Obviously the queen buff is from 3 - 5 range. Do you really think that it's that significant that queens to kite amazingly easier now because of this? They still have stupidly low DPS vs almost anything, and can't hold any significant pressure. It's still easy to pressure zerg with 2-3 zealots and force them to produce units.
On May 12 2012 09:41 Oreo7 wrote: So many noobies in this thread.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing.
In the same vein, 1 day of change isn't indicative of a problem.
On May 12 2012 09:46 Peleus wrote: Obviously the queen buff is from 3 - 5 range. Do you really think that it's that significant that queens to kite amazingly easier now because of this? They still have stupidly low DPS vs almost anything, and can't hold any significant pressure. It's still easy to pressure zerg with 2-3 zealots and force them to produce units.
IMO that's one the kind of thing that the queen change is going to shut down almost completely.
On May 12 2012 09:41 Oreo7 wrote: So many noobies in this thread.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing.
noones going to blidnly make a million queens and if tyhey make that many queens just to stop the 2 base 4gate then the 4gate succeeded and there economy is in the dumps
the 2 base 4gate isnt a threat if they know its coming and prepare for it
On May 12 2012 09:41 Oreo7 wrote: So many noobies in this thread.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing.
Very rarely did this pressure ever work against a competent or non-greedy zerg pre-patch.
The post seems to be whining about not being able to do stupid pressure that only stomped "noobies" to begin with. This is exactly like when 2 gate was nerfed and everyone said there was no way to pressure a fast expanding zerg for months until tester showed people how to cannon rush.
Point being, you'll find a new way to apply pressure; one which you should have found a long time ago because these builds haven't been working against prepared zergs for a while. Or you'll find a way to econ safely; a build that gets punished for playing greedy, but rewards safe play.
On May 12 2012 09:41 Oreo7 wrote: So many noobies in this thread.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing.
noones going to blidnly make a million queens and if tyhey make that many queens just to stop the 2 base 4gate then the 4gate succeeded and there economy is in the dumps
the 2 base 4gate isnt a threat if they know its coming and prepare for it
How is their economy "in the dumps"? Normally, to hold it off, they would have to get gas, which costs drones/larva as well as mining time when getting more gas. Being able to stick to a mineral only economy allows them to get hatcheries faster and increase production, and increases the potential for more gas later.
On May 12 2012 09:41 Oreo7 wrote: So many noobies in this thread.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing.
noones going to blidnly make a million queens and if tyhey make that many queens just to stop the 2 base 4gate then the 4gate succeeded and there economy is in the dumps
the 2 base 4gate isnt a threat if they know its coming and prepare for it
How is their economy "in the dumps"? Normally, to hold it off, they would have to get gas, which costs drones/larva as well as mining time when getting more gas. Being able to stick to a mineral only economy allows them to get hatcheries faster and increase production, and increases the potential for more gas later.
Couldn't the protoss take a much earlier third if zergs start using more queens for defence instead of earlier roaches thus actually putting the toss ahead in economy. Because if they didn't make those early roaches to hold off a 2 base timing then he cant really pressure. Just a thought.
On May 12 2012 10:04 windsupernova wrote: I can't believe so many people thought TT1 was talking about 1 base 4gate....
it makes alot more sense for him to be talking about 1 base 4 gate since 2 base 4gate isnt supposed to do alot of damage and pretty mcuh only exists to maybe get a lucky hatch snipe and force units wich if the Zerg makes alot of queens to defend is mission accomplished
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
I'm disappointed that a progamer is already complaining after the patch has been out for less than a week. I'm sure the korean progamers are working hard to find a workaround this while I see foreigners just throw up their hands and say queens are OP instead of playing the game
I think it's fine. Obviously I'm not a pro player, so my opinion isn't quite as important, but people always freak out about new buffs. Zergs thought it was impossible to go mutas for almost a year becuase of the 5 second phoenix buff, protoss said you couldn't pressure a zerg after the roach buff, etc. Just because the builds people use right now are a little less strong doesn't mean you can't find new stuff.
On May 12 2012 10:27 awu25 wrote: I'm disappointed that a progamer is already complaining after the patch has been out for less than a week. I'm sure the korean progamers are working hard to find a workaround this while I see foreigners just throw up their hands and say queens are OP instead of playing the game
I'm sure he's pretty disappointed that they only gave it a week before implementing a balance patch. Also, just because we don't get to see Korean sentiments all the time doesn't mean that they don't feel the same way. I'm sure all the pros are finding out ways to work with the buff in place, but they can still find it incredibly ridiculous at the same time.
On May 12 2012 09:11 5unrise wrote: The biggest issue with the queen buff comes in TvZ, where terran rely on early harass, which queens are designed to deal with. With PvZ its hard to see this being an issue, especially as protoss relies on push-based aggression, not harass, and queen's dps capabilities are next to useless against that. The only problem from protoss perspective is that it is much harder to keep the probe scout alive early on, not much else has changed.
Please don't talk about a match up in with you evidently don't have experience playing it.
Protoss rely a LOT on pressure, either few units or 4gate.
On May 12 2012 10:27 awu25 wrote: I'm disappointed that a progamer is already complaining after the patch has been out for less than a week. I'm sure the korean progamers are working hard to find a workaround this while I see foreigners just throw up their hands and say queens are OP instead of playing the game
thats a misconception, korean players whine even more(no1 whines more than me tho, but honestly whenever i do its a pretty legitimate whine) than foreign players
How are you going to mass queens early enough to hold off a 4-gate? Can you submit a replay of someone doing this? Stalkers still outrange, and that's essentially a spine crawler that the zerg could have had. Of course stephano can hold off early pressure and max out, because he's really good. There's skill in there, and tons of Zerg's not at that level can't hold off pressure, or make the same decisions Stephano does with his roaches. Plus, if you defend well, which may be difficult forp layers like TT1, you can take a third and defend Stephano's roaches. Just ask him. Or ask MC. Or tons of other protoss who have been having extremely successful vs. Zerg results.
It may just be my experience with TT1 but he seems to just non-stop complain.
If the zerg opens mass queens they will be behind economically vs. a FFE anyways. A timing attack would probably be very successful. How about harass with warp prism? OR how about not doing 1 opening every game and do something other than FFE. Whatever you do, either bring some PROOF or stop crying as per usual.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third?
and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in
also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases
I'm a bit confused about the argument here. Protoss has like a 75% win ratio vs Zerg in GSL and a small queen ground attack is going to break the match up? Is this what you are saying?
If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened.
Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime.
That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ )
On May 12 2012 10:42 Jakkerr wrote: If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened.
Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime.
That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ )
Queens are meant for defending hence there abysmal movement speed of creep and there heal
i do think, that the OP has a valid point in arguing, that P´s timing attacks, that are meant to hinder zergs econ will suffer from this buff. i agree, that a non hindered zerg econ is quite unstoppable. True question is how much will the nerf hinder P´s 2base 4 gate/ 4 gate stargate or similar. The biggest impact will be seen to my opinion on pro level, `coz to my experience zergs up to masters don´t kite that actively. I do guess, the impact will be a bit smaller off, even as P´s midgame is slightly buffed in the mid by the increased obs build time you can fit it in better to churn out immortals in order to stop the 11-12 min roach max. the most valid approach to me seems to be, that Blizzard felt some, in my pov legitimate need, to fix hellions tvz and didnt know a better option. It´s by far the slightest change to affect this phase of tvz, in comparison to directly nerfing hellion damage/range or queen damage.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third?
and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in
also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases
because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing
also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays
On May 12 2012 10:42 Jakkerr wrote: If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened.
Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime.
That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ )
Queens are meant for defending hence there abysmal movement speed of creep and there heal
you get my point -.- Zergs need to pull their queens and make 3-4-5 of them early game because it sucks defending vs stuff if you can't even build spinecrawlers in time when you scout it.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third?
and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in
also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases
because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing
also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays
but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third?
and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in
also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases
because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing
also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays
but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys
The argument doesn't make sense / hold up. In one breath you're saying that they can build up extra queens to hold off pressure, how could they not do that before? If it's vs zealots it's still a ranged unit vs melee so it's pretty much exactly the same, yes a perhaps little easier but still the same concept. Ok stalkers is harder to kite but once more you wouldn't be kiting or doing significant damage vs 3+ queens at the location anyway, even with their old range.
Then you're talking about how a Zerg can punish your fast third, once more how is that related to the queen getting +2 range? It's a pretty long bow to stretch a queen having 2 extra range into making your third impossible to hold.
Have you got any replays to support this?
I respect that you're a much better player than me, however it doesn't mean you don't need to back up what you're saying if you make a claim.
Edit: You claim the logic is later gas because you can use queens to defend the pressure meaning you can drone harder. Instead of getting 3 extra queens how is it different to a Zerg getting 3 spines to hold off your 4 gate pressure? You can certainly try and argue that Zerg is imba maxing at 200 fast or something, but if you want to discuss the queen buff you need to directly link it to the queen having +2 range allowing something that was impossible before.
On May 12 2012 10:42 Jakkerr wrote: If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened.
Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime.
That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ )
Queens are meant for defending hence there abysmal movement speed of creep and there heal
If you can't prevent big creepspread then they suddenly defend half the Map.
On May 12 2012 10:42 Jakkerr wrote: If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened.
Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime.
That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ )
Queens are meant for defending hence there abysmal movement speed of creep and there heal
If you can't prevent big creepspread then they suddenly defend half the Map.
thats like saying if you dont build a wall then zerglings then early pools are really good
by the time creep is at your opponents base they have an army queens are worthless against
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third?
and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in
also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases
because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing
also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays
but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys
...
I'm pretty sure TT1 is talking about going 4-bases and really fast hive tech for Blord Infestor. Your first Blords are at like 14-15 minutes. You can't really get a MShip and an army in time for this if you take an early third. Essentially, the problem is passivity for the P early. When zerg sees FFE they know it'll be the 7.5-8 minute mark before any pressure. When they see a third - well, you can probably tack quite a bit more onto that. At some point, zerg can just tech all the way up and go directly into the lategame. Protoss is slower because you just don't have the resources to get archons, an MShip, stuff to deal with the threat of early pressure, and a sizeable army by 15 minutes. You just don't have the resources. Try it.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third?
and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in
also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases
because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing
also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays
but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys
...
I'm pretty sure TT1 is talking about going 4-bases and really fast hive tech for Blord Infestor. Your first Blords are at like 14-15 minutes. You can't really get a MShip and an army in time for this if you take an early third. Essentially, the problem is passivity for the P early. When zerg sees FFE they know it'll be the 7.5-8 minute mark before any pressure. When they see a third - well, you can probably tack quite a bit more onto that. At some point, zerg can just tech all the way up and go directly into the lategame. Protoss is slower because you just don't have the resources to get archons, an MShip, stuff to deal with the threat of early pressure, and a sizeable army by 15 minutes. You just don't have the resources. Try it.
its okay because instead of getting a good economy early game they spent too much on all the queens they made
On May 12 2012 07:34 mTwTT1 wrote: Protoss HAS to do be able to harass zerg in the early game or else they fall behind in eco
So, you want to sit and fatten your ass the first 10 minutes of departure, without attacking, without pressure or anything like that ... and supposedly have everything from head to win.
Sorry if I exaggerate, but to pretend to equal or exceed a Zerg economically without doing nothing seems a little stupid. The main advantage of the Zerg race is oriented economy and macro.
and then blizzard takes out one of the very few harassing way, LETTING ZERGS DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT!
i am terran, and hell, i know the feeling.... i am playing ladder, and i dont see zergs exploiting the new buff... they just sit back with the queens vs my hellions... i dont really thin they`ve noticed it hahahaahha
On May 12 2012 10:52 Peleus wrote: The argument doesn't make sense / hold up. In one breath you're saying that they can build up extra queens to hold off pressure, how could they not do that before? If it's vs zealots it's still a ranged unit vs melee so it's pretty much exactly the same, yes a perhaps little easier but still the same concept. Ok stalkers is harder to kite but once more you wouldn't be kiting or doing significant damage vs 3+ queens at the location anyway, even with their old range.
Then you're talking about how a Zerg can punish your fast third, once more how is that related to the queen getting +2 range? It's a pretty long bow to stretch a queen having 2 extra range into making your third impossible to hold.
Have you got any replays to support this?
I respect that you're a much better player than me, however it doesn't mean you don't need to back up what you're saying if you make a claim.
Edit: You claim the logic is later gas because you can use queens to defend the pressure meaning you can drone harder. Instead of getting 3 extra queens how is it different to a Zerg getting 3 spines to hold off your 4 gate pressure?
because spines are immobile so u cant defend both ur nat and ur 3rd base? and u need creep spread to hold 4gate pressures with lings and queens, also by making spines u cant afford to make any extra queens so u have to use all ur energy on injections which makes it much harder to defend blink stalker allin or immortal allin follow ups.. if ur gonna play that style then its much more cost efficient to make roachs instead
sorry but i wont answer any other posts related to basic sc2 gameplay
It's 2 range on a queen, it's not revolutionizing any of the matchups (as if this change has been in effect long enough for people to make this assumption). In fact all it is doing is exactly what blizzard intended it to, help zergs against early game aggression because zerg is the most susceptible to it. To turn around and complain that "zerg is not as susceptible to my early game aggression" is beyond ironic.
Without trying to sound like a complete dick the last PvZ games of TT1 I've personally seen were against Stephano where the exact same badly time build (according to the people casting the game at the time) was used back to back with absolutely no adaptation even when it was completely shut down. Of all the pro toss's I seriously doubt after a single day he has 'exausted' the options available to the race enough to justify thinking this somehow breaks the game.
Do you realize how Terrans fight off creep? They use hellions to contain and thus delay creep spread for several minutes. Then a few scans can be used to fight off the rest. Now hellions can be thwarted much sooner as queens can take them on by themselves. Thus at the time you can have an army out to deny creep, it has come MUCH further than it otherwise would have. This makes it much more difficult to deny creep, and chances are you won't be able to stop it.
what you jsut said has nothing to do with anything i said nor anything to do with who i quoted
and good riddance its annoying that getting 4 hellions means they get a third up faster then Zerg
Same range until Hydra range upgrade and though Hydra has higher DPS queen DPS is pretty close.
pretty sure hydras attack faster and do 4 more damage per shot
Lets take Stephano timings for example. Double extractors at the 6 minute mark. By the time these extractors finish, zerg has 54+ supply. 3 Queens, which make up 6 of that, and 4 lings, which is 2 of that, That leaves zerg on at least 46 drones. 6 drones on gas when the extractors finish, thats 40 drones on minerals. Optimal saturation (or close enough to optimal) is 16 on minerals per base. At 40 drones, you are only 8 drones short from optimal mineral saturation on your 3 bases, and these 8 drones will be up very very shortly, even with taking your gases. Because zerg reaches 3 base full mineral saturation just barely after taking their extractors with normal ZvP timings, I can't see any strong gamebreaking advantage to delaying gas a bit more and making extra queens (which means less drones), and delaying the important upgrades and tech so they can get an economic boost. Even if they did so, the economic boost would be small and insignificant enough that it would not cause the gamebreaking advantage which you are speaking of. If they are trying to drone up 4 bases very quickly off of no gas and 4-5 queens, they will be incredibly vulnerable to a lot of different protoss builds, and the greedy 4 bases would not pay off any more than they do currently.
The zerg change is major. Possibly one of the biggest changes in a very long time. The number of early game pressures that 5 range deals with easily vs. 3 is huge. That said, I do feel like this may be too strong, in fact I hope it is. The strengthening of a generic early game "must have" unit for zerg gives them room to tweak other zerg units which have so far been untouchable.
I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot.
On May 12 2012 11:12 hitpoint wrote: I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot.
Certian forms of agression have to remain valid or the game shifts towards a greedy macro slugfest without tactical finesse in the early game. That´s not perfect either.
On May 12 2012 10:52 Peleus wrote: The argument doesn't make sense / hold up. In one breath you're saying that they can build up extra queens to hold off pressure, how could they not do that before? If it's vs zealots it's still a ranged unit vs melee so it's pretty much exactly the same, yes a perhaps little easier but still the same concept. Ok stalkers is harder to kite but once more you wouldn't be kiting or doing significant damage vs 3+ queens at the location anyway, even with their old range.
Then you're talking about how a Zerg can punish your fast third, once more how is that related to the queen getting +2 range? It's a pretty long bow to stretch a queen having 2 extra range into making your third impossible to hold.
Have you got any replays to support this?
I respect that you're a much better player than me, however it doesn't mean you don't need to back up what you're saying if you make a claim.
Edit: You claim the logic is later gas because you can use queens to defend the pressure meaning you can drone harder. Instead of getting 3 extra queens how is it different to a Zerg getting 3 spines to hold off your 4 gate pressure?
because spines are immobile so u cant defend both ur nat and ur 3rd base? and u need creep spread to hold 4gate pressures with lings and queens, also by making spines u cant afford to make any extra queens so u have to use all ur energy on injections which makes it much harder to defend blink stalker allin or immortal allin follow ups.. if ur gonna play that style then its much more cost efficient to make roachs instead
sorry but i wont answer any other posts related to basic sc2 gameplay
You're saying getting an extra 2-3 queens nullifies 4 gate pressure because they now have an extra 2 range. Firstly, how many units are you talking about pressuring with? 2-3 zealots and a stalker? A spine at the nat a spine at the third and a couple of lings with a queen is enough to hold it - all mineral based, and doesn't count in any way on the extra 2 range a queen has.
You're talking now about holding a blink stalker attack or immortal all ins? Firstly, an extra queen or two isn't going to do jack in terms of holding this. Creep spread helps a little but it's not going to be game changing. Secondly using a spine or two at the third / natural is still all mineral based meaning you're at the same gas timing allowing the same droning etc to take place as what you're claiming is imba - i.e. no change. Thirdly you still haven't proven that having an extra 2 range makes this dramatically easier for the Zerg to do something that they couldn't do before.
Edit: Also saying you're not going to discuss basic sc2 gameplay from now on is essentially like saying "I'm not going to discuss the queen buff I'm just going to QQ about it".
On May 12 2012 11:12 hitpoint wrote: I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot.
Certian forms of agression have to remain valid or the game shifts towards a greedy macro slugfest without tactical finesse in the early game. That´s not perfect either.
He said it make's it harder. That doesnt mean it is impossible. 2 range on queens doesnt mean you will never see successful bunker rush's / cannon rush's /early aggression. I cannot believe how many people think that 2 extra range on queens is going to completely shut down every form of early aggression against zerg. It's extremely naive IMO.
Come on guys, we need to stop complaining and start talking about solutions. Come the next GSL, MC will probably have come up with a 2-base timing that kills a mass queen opener anyways.
On May 12 2012 11:20 jsemmens wrote: Come on guys, we need to stop complaining and start talking about solutions. Come the next GSL, MC will probably have come up with a 2-base timing that kills a mass queen opener anyways.
On May 12 2012 10:04 windsupernova wrote: I can't believe so many people thought TT1 was talking about 1 base 4gate....
it makes alot more sense for him to be talking about 1 base 4 gate since 2 base 4gate isnt supposed to do alot of damage and pretty mcuh only exists to maybe get a lucky hatch snipe and force units wich if the Zerg makes alot of queens to defend is mission accomplished
2 base 4 gate exists to force the Zerg to make units, specifically Gas units(Roaches), TT1 sad that with the Queen Buff Zergs would have to make less units.
On May 12 2012 11:20 jsemmens wrote: Come on guys, we need to stop complaining and start talking about solutions. Come the next GSL, MC will probably have come up with a 2-base timing that kills a mass queen opener anyways.
i think those were invented during beta
Beta was nothing but people 1 basing and zergs trying to figure out how to fast expand and hold it.
On May 12 2012 10:04 windsupernova wrote: I can't believe so many people thought TT1 was talking about 1 base 4gate....
it makes alot more sense for him to be talking about 1 base 4 gate since 2 base 4gate isnt supposed to do alot of damage and pretty mcuh only exists to maybe get a lucky hatch snipe and force units wich if the Zerg makes alot of queens to defend is mission accomplished
2 base 4 gate exists to force the Zerg to make units, specifically Gas units(Roaches), TT1 sad that with the Queen Buff Zergs would have to make less units.
Its all in the OP.....
but if they make enough queens to matter then they already made the units and you can jsut expand and laugh
Beta was nothing but people 1 basing and zergs trying to figure out how to fast expand and hold it.
On May 12 2012 11:12 hitpoint wrote: I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot.
Certian forms of agression have to remain valid or the game shifts towards a greedy macro slugfest without tactical finesse in the early game. That´s not perfect either.
He said it make's it harder. That doesnt mean it is impossible. 2 range on queens doesnt mean you will never see successful bunker rush's / cannon rush's /early aggression. I cannot believe how many people think that 2 extra range on queens is going to completely shut down every form of early aggression against zerg. It's extremely naive IMO.
Im not claiming it´s impossible. I agree it´s just harder, as i already mentioned much earlier in the thread. I just argue, that in the current state of pvz, it´s crucial for P to apply midgame pressure, not talking insane early cheeses. Otherwise the Z often gets infinite ahead using stephano style.
i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about
Queens do pretty low damage against protoss units anyway since they naturally have 1 armor and queens have 2x attack. What makes me struggle in early PvZ is the dominance of spine crawlers against and force you muster for harassment purposes. Since queens are now a viable early game defense, I think it's time to slightly nerf spinecrawlers so they're not so damn good. Just removing the bonus damage against armored units would allow stalkers to be slightly more cost effective and slightly alleviates the mass spine crawler problem in late game as well.
On May 12 2012 11:30 mTwTT1 wrote: i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about
On May 12 2012 11:30 mTwTT1 wrote: i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about
cant you jsut play a zerg?
a) i have to walk him throught the style so i cant play and b) i need a high level player who has good mechanics
I'm going to be very blunt. Today I came back after not playing for a few days straight and did normal 4 gate -> blink/colo timings. The 4 gate FFE pressure vs fast 3 base zergs is totally useless now. Every PvZ I played I felt like there was literally nothing I could do.
On antiga I still play 12 gate -> fast stalkers vs fast hatch as that's what most zergs still play on that map. 1 spine defended by a queen works fine with lings now.. Totally blunders the P build and you can't force many lings.
I was pretty frustrated today. Felt like there was pretty much nothing I could do in any of the games pressure wise. I'm an avid suggestor of Warp Prisms, however, if you can't even get that far into the game without being further behind... I dunno... Just feels like a very big rut @_@
On May 12 2012 11:30 mTwTT1 wrote: i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about
I watched you play against Sheth yesterday on Tal Darim altar, where you tried an early zealot pressure, and it was completely shut down by queens. Since it was from Sheth's viewpoint it's impossible to comment on how you yourself played. However, from Sheth's FPview, it looked like the queens were shitting all over the zealots with some slow ling support.
Definitely see where you are coming from in the OPt. I'm thinking of trying out robo builds with warp prism pressures, since even with creep the queen can't keep up with two early attack fronts (which can be provided with a warp prism in one location and a pylon in the other).
You should've posted replays before creating another thread.
Edit: so basically if the build you're talking about becomes mainstream, protosses and terrans can get free fast third base, no? I don't think queens are going to crush you if you do that, lol.
On May 12 2012 11:33 ChriseC wrote: can anyone send me a replay where the 5 queen strat deals more efficiently with a 4gate +1 zealot pressure than the usual 7min roach warren?
well the idea im basically having is that you use 1 spine in the 3rd and a evo chamber (to create awesome sim city) and then just abuse the queen range and drone micro to the fullest to basically ward off any number of zealots (4-8). so when your +2 queens (from 3 to 5) finish you just sit and save energy (im not sure how much energy they will get but they will get 1 transfuse for sure) and that is just so cool to have around.
so if you deal with it fine, queens have more potential because you didnt need to use up your gas for roaches that are useless anyway while queens are just great for pushing your creep forward and when your macro hatch is done you basically have the ideal number of queens (4hatch, 5 queens)
so its not that they deal with it more efficiently as much as once its over thats when it starts to show off that queens can just do more for you than some stinky roaches
obviously you cant kite zealots with the queens or just fight straight up with them, 2 more range doesnt make them that much better straight up fighters. you use the range to your advantage through sim city drone micro and target firing etc. queens couldnt actually fire across a hatchery to hit zealot on the other side, but now its exactly so they can do that (just as an example) and thats why i think the extra 2 queens have alot of potential also imo queens and spine deal with stalkers and sentries much better than roaches when its in small numbers
but if its like a 7gate ofcourse you cant just make up to 10 queens and just fight and expect them to win. the queens are like a thing you throw in so you have it for smaller pressures but for real allins you need to start massproducing units like normal. and i think thats what tt1 is talking about too
if my idea works out correctly manipulating zergs drone balance with light pressure will not be as effective anymore which is super good. not having to worry so much about thinking if its just a 4gate or a 7gate is very good and not come into this typical situation where your massing units and toss just gays around outside you while building a 3rd and walks home at the right time (at which point you know your screwed). this sim city with queen idea also like, gives you alot of time. assume he does actually allin, then your spine queens and stuff actually should give you enough time to get your units out and recognize hes allin and then respond correctly by massing units. just having nothing at your 3rd except a few lings and a few roaches when the first warpin comes feels so fragile to me, but if i made more than that it seems like i can get manipulated too much by fake or light pressure
On May 12 2012 11:35 darkness wrote: You should've posted replays before creating another thread.
Edit: so basically if the build you're talking about becomes mainstream, protosses and terrans can get free fast third base, no? I don't think queens are going to crush you if you do that, lol.
early 3rd's are very map dependant but protoss can 4gate into a fast 3rd vs roach openers even now
I don't see why P seems to be complaining that they can no longer send in a probe to scout. Seems kinda hypocritical considering Zerg is the one race that basically can't/doesn't wall where as both T and P could wall in to deny all forms of scouting other than a slow ovie which depending on your luck/building placement or ability to react and kill the ovie, could or couldn't scout. Especially considering they just got an observer build buff time, I realize this doesn't help scouting before robo is out but there is still hallucination.
Just a bystanders opinion on the probe scout complaining.
On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote: reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote: reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
Are you seriously defending this queen buff?
When haven't you complained about a change? I remember some pretty interesting posts by you about terran changes that in hindsight seem absurdly silly.
Given the state of ZvP recently especially in the GSL I really can't see this change being anything but possitive. I actually hope Idra replies to this thread because I'm sure he'd have a pretty interesting reply.
On May 12 2012 09:41 Oreo7 wrote: So many noobies in this thread.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing.
noones going to blidnly make a million queens and if tyhey make that many queens just to stop the 2 base 4gate then the 4gate succeeded and there economy is in the dumps
the 2 base 4gate isnt a threat if they know its coming and prepare for it
How is their economy "in the dumps"? Normally, to hold it off, they would have to get gas, which costs drones/larva as well as mining time when getting more gas. Being able to stick to a mineral only economy allows them to get hatcheries faster and increase production, and increases the potential for more gas later.
you dont need gas to hold off 2 base 4 gate
you dont need gas to hold of regular 4gate
Yes, you do need gas, no, you don't know what you're talking about.
I'm curious how someone could come to such an absolute conclusion without having replays on hand showing what it is you are experiencing....If you've played enough to say that "Such and such cannot be done anymore" then you should have some games already played that brought you to that conclusion.
On May 12 2012 11:51 AcuteAnthrax wrote: I don't see why P seems to be complaining that they can no longer send in a probe to scout. Seems kinda hypocritical considering Zerg is the one race that basically can't/doesn't wall where as both T and P could wall in to deny all forms of scouting other than a slow ovie which depending on your luck/building placement or ability to react and kill the ovie, could or couldn't scout. Especially considering they just got an observer build buff time, I realize this doesn't help scouting before robo is out but there is still hallucination.
Just a bystanders opinion on the probe scout complaining.
Protoss lack the map presence that enables Zerg to reactively defend better than the other two, and lacks Terran's "oh shit" Repair/Bunkers to hold all ins. Protoss reaction to cheese is a lot more stark and specific, and so the scouting has to be a lot more timely and specific. Zerg builds have evolved due to the timings from cheese and the safe timing to get buildings out to be able to reactively deal with cheese (e.g. checking gas in natural of opponent). Protoss builds agianst cheese, on the other hand, pretty much NEED that scout or else you could react too violenty one way (late third from Zerg, can't get into nat/main to scout gas).
On May 12 2012 11:51 AcuteAnthrax wrote: I don't see why P seems to be complaining that they can no longer send in a probe to scout. Seems kinda hypocritical considering Zerg is the one race that basically can't/doesn't wall where as both T and P could wall in to deny all forms of scouting other than a slow ovie which depending on your luck/building placement or ability to react and kill the ovie, could or couldn't scout. Especially considering they just got an observer build buff time, I realize this doesn't help scouting before robo is out but there is still hallucination.
Just a bystanders opinion on the probe scout complaining.
Protoss lack the map presence that enables Zerg to reactively defend better than the other two, and lacks Terran's "oh shit" Repair/Bunkers to hold all ins. Protoss reaction to cheese is a lot more stark and specific, and so the scouting has to be a lot more timely and specific. Zerg builds have evolved due to the timings from cheese and the safe timing to get buildings out to be able to reactively deal with cheese (e.g. checking gas in natural of opponent). Protoss builds agianst cheese, on the other hand, pretty much NEED that scout or else you could react too violenty one way (late third from Zerg, can't get into nat/main to scout gas).
how many all in do zerg have vs prot tho? bane bust which is prevented with micro of units you should already have. And roach ling which is again help with units you should have. There might be some 2 base all ins when lair hits but you should have a obs outby then.
so other then proxy hatches...really doesn't prot only need to see what route the zerg is going once lair hits?
On May 12 2012 08:56 Gackt_ wrote: What can I say? Go figure out how to deal with it protoss and terran players. You guys can just suck it up imo.
Zergs have been figuring out stuff on their own for a LOOOOOOONG time now about dealing with silly stuff the P and T can do. It's your turn now..lol so stop this nonsense.
Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff? Hell no. Not even close to this T and P whinefest.
is this a troll question?
LOL zergs figuring out stuff on their own? Everything zerg "figured" was nerf from blizzard so dont talk about something you are clueless about. I saw how zergs dealt with protoss deathball, it got nerfed (your race got boosted).
On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote: reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
Are you seriously defending this queen buff?
When haven't you complained about a change? I remember some pretty interesting posts by you about terran changes that in hindsight seem absurdly silly.
Going off of what you said, it seems this makes zerg more stable as a race. Just because some things don't work as well, doesnt mean the game is broken beyond all belief. It's probably fine, and most of the complaints im seeing are about the ability to pressure early/midgame. That isn't the entire game...hero has stupid lategame pvz for example. Hellion harass is less effective=| hellions gone forever never damage ever. Edit: also 2 rax every game of a finals is less appealing.
Just calm down, zerg is a little more stable. That's my discussion.
Edit: Actually, the pros are talking in here. Morrow knows his stuff, and seems to have found a new style of zvp based on faster 5 queens or something like that. The pros can discuss starcraft like an experienced director/player/singer can discuss a massive choral/orchestral work, understanding the little changes , whats important, whats not. I'm almost sorry I posted here, considering the level of discussion
I dont think its as bad as you're letting on payam,
but if it turns out you're right after a couple weeks worth of games i'll probably just fake the pressure and take a faster 3rd, deffinnitely not impossible with maps like ohana and cloud kingdom in the map pool now
On May 12 2012 08:56 Gackt_ wrote: What can I say? Go figure out how to deal with it protoss and terran players. You guys can just suck it up imo.
Zergs have been figuring out stuff on their own for a LOOOOOOONG time now about dealing with silly stuff the P and T can do. It's your turn now..lol so stop this nonsense.
Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff? Hell no. Not even close to this T and P whinefest.
is this a troll question?
LOL zergs figuring out stuff on their own? Everything zerg "figured" was nerf from blizzard so dont talk about something you are clueless about. I saw how zergs dealt with protoss deathball, it got nerfed (your race got boosted).
How aggressively ironic of you.
When was the last time Leenock, Losira, Nestea, Dimaga, Idra or any of those front runner zergs ever done anything actually impressive that pushed the game and zerg further to its limits.
Multi pronged heavy roach aggression, Nydus play, Spine pushing, Baneling drops, forcing base trade scenario with muta to AVOID the deathball.
I am a High Masters Protoss player, and ive been winning a significant amount of PvZ without relying on a cheesy type of 2base timing to damage the zerg economy in order to win. There are other avenues and builds to be discovered and refined that allow us to beat zergs who have fully saturated 5 bases. I remember zerg often used to complain that a 3 base protoss was op and unbeatable. Then somewhere along the lines, 2 base pvz play became the standard and ppl gave up on the idea of Dragging out a PvZ, even when the mothership was shown to be such a powerfull late game answer.
Now i guess what im trying to say is that i dont really see zerg queen range vs ground as a big deal because there are plenty of viable PvZ builds and styles that dont rely on the lame 2 base all-ins everyone has been mindlessly spamming in lieu of adapting to the matchup normally. Queen range will also grant zergs a "false" sense of security to the point you made about how they may now econ even harder, which is going to open up new windows for timings and pressure builds to take advange of. All will be well i say its time we adapt this absolutely boring PvZ mindset that we keep seeing in high level gaming and move on.
P.S. 10 seconds less of observer build time = more stuff from the robotics, and none of those things are bad in PvZ
As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote: As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or...
Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote: As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or...
Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention?
Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby.
On May 12 2012 13:07 MafiaCheese wrote: I am a High Masters Protoss player, and ive been winning a significant amount of PvZ without relying on a cheesy type of 2base timing to damage the zerg economy in order to win. There are other avenues and builds to be discovered and refined that allow us to beat zergs who have fully saturated 5 bases. I remember zerg often used to complain that a 3 base protoss was op and unbeatable. Then somewhere along the lines, 2 base pvz play became the standard and ppl gave up on the idea of Dragging out a PvZ, even when the mothership was shown to be such a powerfull late game answer.
Now i guess what im trying to say is that i dont really see zerg queen range vs ground as a big deal because there are plenty of viable PvZ builds and styles that dont rely on the lame 2 base all-ins everyone has been mindlessly spamming in lieu of adapting to the matchup normally. Queen range will also grant zergs a "false" sense of security to the point you made about how they may now econ even harder, which is going to open up new windows for timings and pressure builds to take advange of. All will be well i say its time we adapt this absolutely boring PvZ mindset that we keep seeing in high level gaming and move on.
P.S. 10 seconds less of observer build time = more stuff from the robotics, and none of those things are bad in PvZ
Fast 3 base builds can be viable on some maps for the most part but against Zergs at the caliber of Stephano it's almost near impossible to pull off, considering he can already max out on roaches at around 11:00 holding a third base will be almost near impossible considering Zerg can probably max out much quicker now with the new queen range.
On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote: As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or...
Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention?
Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby.
I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese.
What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about?
And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them.
What exactly was Blizzard's reasoning behind the patch, if anyone knows. They said Zerg has a hard time scouting so they put better overlords. Why the queen range though?
In the current game, Zerg has a hard time in direct fights. Why doesn't Blizzard just buff the +3,+3 upgrades for Zerg. That way, they stand a chance in 200/200 fights.
On May 12 2012 14:07 Kluey wrote: What exactly was Blizzard's reasoning behind the patch, if anyone knows. They said Zerg has a hard time scouting so they put better overlords. Why the queen range though?
In the current game, Zerg has a hard time in direct fights. Why doesn't Blizzard just buff the +3,+3 upgrades for Zerg. That way, they stand a chance in 200/200 fights.
I don't know what game your playing but any 200 200 fight with Zerg against Protoss if the Zerg doesn't clump all his units into one vortex he usually steamrolls the Protoss. (This is assuming he has his Broodlord Infestor death ball)
reaper opening for tvz seems obsolete and it will be easier to fend off hellion harass and overlord scouting is immense now so zerg should feel pretty comfy in early game
On May 12 2012 14:07 Kluey wrote: What exactly was Blizzard's reasoning behind the patch, if anyone knows. They said Zerg has a hard time scouting so they put better overlords. Why the queen range though?
In the current game, Zerg has a hard time in direct fights. Why doesn't Blizzard just buff the +3,+3 upgrades for Zerg. That way, they stand a chance in 200/200 fights.
They said it (and the defunct energy buff) were because zerg players couldn't deal with early all-ins, even when scouted. Not only all-ins, but things like reaper/hellion harass were simply too effective to the point where they were virtually never cost-ineffective for a terran player.
Bro, get armor instead of attack upgrades for your FFE--> 4 gate, queens and lings then are kinda useless. Queen does what 2 attacks of 4 BEFORE armor reductions?
On May 12 2012 14:18 jacksonlee wrote: hmm... so you guys are complaining that a unit that intentionally got buffed actually got stronger... interesting
they're complaining because they think it's too strong. can you read?
I don't really mind about the advanced queen range. I my mind, there is just a downward trend for terran buffs and upward trend for other races buffs, but thats not the real point. I prefer playing long macro games against Zerg or some pushes around ~10min. So it is less important for me to denie creep in the very early game.
Also I think the Reactor Hellion Expand is dead, or it is not that big, that a strategy is going to die. Starcraft2 is a game of ongoing metagame
so we tested alot of b.os out, its very hard to hold off a continual +1 mass zealot warpins(this is assuming the p is newb and blindly keeps warping in units without knowing if theres a roach warren) with lings and queens only however we came up with this b.o in the limited amount of time that we had
pool > expo > take 3rd > 4th hatch(while ur droning up and after ur 3rd queen) > 4th + 5th queen(optional) > double gas > roach warren + evo chamber @ the same time > if u see pressure coming make slow lings > hold 1st push @ 3rd with 2-3 queens + lings > if theres any additional pressure make some roachs > first 100 gas go lair > saturate all bases even faster than normal > maxout on roachs while having insane creep spread + a better eco
b.os like this are going to popup and theyre going to be really hard to deal with, they allow zerg to hold off early game pressures while having an even better econ than before(prepatch)
I disagree entirely with the OP and until I see a swing in the meta game away from where we are now which is Toss and Terran are winning most / placing high in almost all tournaments bar 2 measly and consequently highly noticeable exceptions Stephano / DRG.
Who else has won anything in last 6 months for zerg? Whilst we have Terrans winning practically every other tournament and Toss high placing in same (admittedly not doing quite so well as Terran but they got a scouting buff too which should particularly help against early terran banshee play / all in with scv cheeses for them)
Way to much QQ over a buff that no one has really tested, I look at Queens as a necessary evil for Zerg, Blizzard fucked up with the Hydra big style, leaving them with no multi role unit
Zerg has no goto unit early game, Terrans get the Marine and Protoss get the Stalker and this is the reason early game Zerg is most volatile race. If there is one unit i would love to see removed in HOTS its the Queen
On May 12 2012 07:47 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: too soon to say I think...
Against protoss queens are pretty bad for dps anyways (die to 1 zealot), I think the bigger problem is zvt where hellions are almost useless earlygame.
queens are ment to tank vs 4gate pressure, with transfusion + a good creep spread u can hold off any 4gate pressure super effectively.. so u could basically open 3hatch into ling speed into a 4th hatch before lairing up now, once u hold the pressure off u can start droning up with 4 hatchs while spreading creep all over the map, gives u so much map control
I don't understand the logic in this.
How did queens suddenly get overpowered when they are meant to tank damage? Do you mean that they got overpowered because suddenly zergs decided to build more of them? I mean if you are saying that queens are used to soak up zealot damage while lings surround them, how did this change with them getting a range buff?
I don`t know if anyone mentioned this, but I think it`s more important that you can not scout the zerg gas timings with a probe anymore. Not that that would happen against a good zerg but it required good positioning where as now even bad zergs can kill your probe easily.
If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba he might find himself more well known in the foreign scene rather than "that one guy who once was in the GSL super tournament and got replaced by Koreans in FnaticMSI". I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas the foreign scene is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
TT1 on the Queen Buff:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1
Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba "THREE" days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba. I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas foreign players is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1 Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba 4 days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
i can cry while practicing at the same time, i usually start my day off with a bit of whining then i spend the rest of the day training
I see no compelling argument here. Nothing but a whine. Stargate openings are now weaker because queen's got a ground range buff? Really? Did you even put thought into that point? This is far from a "legit discussion," but that's not for me to decide......
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba. I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas foreign players is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1 Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba 4 days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
i can cry while practicing at the same time, i usually start my day off with a bit of whining then i spend the rest of the day training
I am not trying to be a dick, I understand if posting on TL is a way to release stress then fine, I just don't want another foreign progamer representing the World vs Korea, to be voicing these frustrations with such poor thought and little effort, having obviously not put forth necessary effort to figure out the implications of the new changes (its been about 3 days man). The public forum isnt the place for that, The strategy forum is having a lovely discussion on the queen range buff, we could use less people like you HERE and more people like you THERE! I hope you do spend the rest of the day training, because the sc2 foreign scene is being replaced by the korean scene (you were after all, no offence). frankly, I like rooting for foreigners cause I am a foreigners and korean winner interview live translation sucks alot of ________ anyway. I am a fan of you TT1, just like I am a fan of InControl and every other foreigner who has potential but doesn't put forth the effort or has too many mental blocks to realize what hard work can actually accomplish.
On May 12 2012 15:18 Mr Showtime wrote: I see no compelling argument here. Nothing but a whine. Stargate openings are now weaker because queen's got a ground range buff? Really? Did you even put thought into that point? This is far from a "legit discussion," but that's not for me to decide......
Are you joking? Stargate openers are weaker because to defend against ground pressure all zerg has to do is make queens, which cost no gas and no larva. Also those queens defend against air attacks.
Like I know it might actually take some thought to form that together, but please think about it before you post that stargate openers aren't indirectly affected by this change.
On topic, the worst part about this change is that it takes away any zerg decision making on whether to make drones or defending units because all they need now is a lot of queens.
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba. I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas foreign players is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1 Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba 4 days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
i can cry while practicing at the same time, i usually start my day off with a bit of whining then i spend the rest of the day training
I am not trying to be a dick, I understand if posting on TL is a way to release stress then fine, I just don't want another foreign progamer representing the World vs Korea, to be voicing these frustrations with such poor thought and little effort, having obviously not put forth necessary effort to figure out the implications of the new changes (its been about 3 days man). The public forum isnt the place for that, The strategy forum is having a lovely discussion on the queen range buff, we could use less people like you HERE and more people like you THERE! I hope you do spend the rest of the day training, because the sc2 foreign scene is being replaced by the korean scene (you were after all, no offence). frankly, I like rooting for foreigners cause I am a foreigners and korean winner interview live translation sucks alot of ________ anyway.
You're not being a dick. Only restating a truth that has been told too many times to count at this point. It's okay though. Some people do not learn.
On May 12 2012 15:22 aHaTsc wrote: Are you joking? Stargate openers are weaker because to defend against ground pressure all zerg has to do is make queens, which cost no gas and no larva. Also those queens defend against air attacks.
Like I know it might actually take some thought to form that together, but please think about it before you post that stargate openers aren't indirectly affected by this change.
On topic, the worst part about this change is that it takes away any zerg decision making on whether to make drones or defending units because all they need now is a lot of queens.
That's a small change in the meta-game. Not a severe balance issue. And you are kidding yourself if you think queens are that good now.
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba he might find himself more well known in the foreign scene rather than "that one guy who once was in the GSL super tournament and got replaced by Koreans in FnaticMSI". I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas the foreign scene is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
TT1 on the Queen Buff:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1
Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba "THREE" days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
I mean yes he may be crying imbalance to some degree, however unlike a lot of the community and even pro players hes making statements and backing them with actual discussion, and if you think that a lot of the top end players don't cry about imbalance then look again.
I've seen tons of twitter posts of top Koreans and even GSL champions complaining, (Nestea, DRG, MVP, etc) I mean hell even Flash complained about Protoss in his most recent interview. I mean obviously practicing a lot is always a good thing but there comes a point where frustration of something you may deem unfair can get in the way of that, as a pro player it is their job to overcome this, however I see no problem what so ever with addressing your concerns and sparking discussion. A problem occurs when you take the Idra approach and simply stop practicing and even trying in a certain match up because you think it's impossible to win in.
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba. I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas foreign players is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1 Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba 4 days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
i can cry while practicing at the same time, i usually start my day off with a bit of whining then i spend the rest of the day training
I am not trying to be a dick, I understand if posting on TL is a way to release stress then fine, I just don't want another foreign progamer representing the World vs Korea, to be voicing these frustrations with such poor thought and little effort, having obviously not put forth necessary effort to figure out the implications of the new changes (its been about 3 days man). The public forum isnt the place for that, The strategy forum is having a lovely discussion on the queen range buff, we could use less people like you HERE and more people like you THERE! I hope you do spend the rest of the day training, because the sc2 foreign scene is being replaced by the korean scene (you were after all, no offence). frankly, I like rooting for foreigners cause I am a foreigners and korean winner interview live translation sucks alot of ________ anyway.
You're not being a dick. Only restating a truth that has been told too many times to count at this point. It's okay though. Some people do not learn.
On May 12 2012 15:22 aHaTsc wrote: Are you joking? Stargate openers are weaker because to defend against ground pressure all zerg has to do is make queens, which cost no gas and no larva. Also those queens defend against air attacks.
Like I know it might actually take some thought to form that together, but please think about it before you post that stargate openers aren't indirectly affected by this change.
On topic, the worst part about this change is that it takes away any zerg decision making on whether to make drones or defending units because all they need now is a lot of queens.
That's a small change in the meta-game. Not a severe balance issue.
Like, honestly I bet TT1 hasn't even tried to do a 4 gate with fucking +1 armor instead of attack. Like that simple thing means the queens damage is cut in HALF. 2 x 4, ---> 2 x 2 and lings do 1 less damage also. Like jesus christ zealots would be impossible to kill without roaches. Not saying it's a good idea, but so many things haven't been tested because enough time hasn't passed.
This is still strategy forum stuff, I think post like these should be made if the strategy forums comes up with shit nothing after a month and zergs have an actual > 50% winrate Z v P in the TLPD statistics.
My hope is that zerg suddenly get overconfident and build like, 3 queens as defense rather than the infinitely better spine crawlers. Which means when I turn up with 8 hellions and a few marines rather than 4, they die instantly.
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba he might find himself more well known in the foreign scene rather than "that one guy who once was in the GSL super tournament and got replaced by Koreans in FnaticMSI". I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas the foreign scene is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
TT1 on the Queen Buff:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1
Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba "THREE" days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
I mean yes he may be crying imbalance to some degree, however unlike a lot of the community and even pro players hes making statements and backing them with actual discussion, and if you think that a lot of the top end players don't cry about imbalance then look again.
I've seen tons of twitter posts of top Koreans and even GSL champions complaining, (Nestea, DRG, MVP, etc) I mean hell even Flash complained about Protoss in his most recent interview. I mean obviously practicing a lot is always a good thing but there comes a point where frustration of something you may deem unfair can get in the way of that, as a pro player it is their job to overcome this, however I see no problem what so ever with addressing your concerns and sparking discussion. A problem occurs when you take the Idra approach and simply stop practicing and even trying in a certain match up because you think it's impossible to win in.
I agree, I mean it's human to complain and vent frustration, but this is more a case of crying wolf, and crying it too early. The thing is the general sc2 forum is a terrible place for a "Legit" discussion. In the Strategy forum right now there are guys like Cecil, Belial, KcDc, Alejandrisha and so so many others having a useful discussion without worrying about the imbalance bullshit and fucking testing it too. Flash complained about toss, and Firebathhero complained about Terran, they are newer to the game than anyone, and its far too soon to know how they will end up.
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba. I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas foreign players is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1 Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba 4 days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
i can cry while practicing at the same time, i usually start my day off with a bit of whining then i spend the rest of the day training
I am not trying to be a dick, I understand if posting on TL is a way to release stress then fine, I just don't want another foreign progamer representing the World vs Korea, to be voicing these frustrations with such poor thought and little effort, having obviously not put forth necessary effort to figure out the implications of the new changes (its been about 3 days man). The public forum isnt the place for that, The strategy forum is having a lovely discussion on the queen range buff, we could use less people like you HERE and more people like you THERE! I hope you do spend the rest of the day training, because the sc2 foreign scene is being replaced by the korean scene (you were after all, no offence). frankly, I like rooting for foreigners cause I am a foreigners and korean winner interview live translation sucks alot of ________ anyway.
You're not being a dick. Only restating a truth that has been told too many times to count at this point. It's okay though. Some people do not learn.
On May 12 2012 15:22 aHaTsc wrote: Are you joking? Stargate openers are weaker because to defend against ground pressure all zerg has to do is make queens, which cost no gas and no larva. Also those queens defend against air attacks.
Like I know it might actually take some thought to form that together, but please think about it before you post that stargate openers aren't indirectly affected by this change.
On topic, the worst part about this change is that it takes away any zerg decision making on whether to make drones or defending units because all they need now is a lot of queens.
That's a small change in the meta-game. Not a severe balance issue.
Like, honestly I bet TT1 hasn't even tried to do a 4 gate with fucking +1 armor instead of attack. Like that simple thing means the queens damage is cut in HALF. 2 x 4, ---> 2 x 2 and lings do 1 less damage also. Like jesus christ zealots would be impossible to kill without roaches. This is still strategy forum stuff, I think post like these should be made if the strategy forums comes up with shit nothing after a month and zergs have an actual > 50% winrate Z v P in the TLPD statistics.
Come to think about it, the SC2 strategy section is taking over the SC2 general lol. Why exactly is this in SC2 general?
On May 12 2012 15:07 RedDragon571 wrote: If TT1 spent more time working on mechanics and practicing rather than crying imba. I don't mean to be rude but this is NOT the first post where TT1 has been complaining about things like this. I mean this kind of mindset of placing blame externally on the game or other people, rather than yourself is the reason korean's dominate the scene. The realize the only way to get to the top is hard work, whereas foreign players is rampant with people looking for some gimmick to get easy wins or worrying about the latest gimmick.
Legit discussion ehhh:
" IS FUCKING OP, plz revert the change back cus theres no way to harass zerg in the early game anymore.. mass queens r owning everything
thx " -TT1 Queen range buff thread
What would a korean do? Play a fuckton of games and keep working on builds rather than crying imba 4 days after release, i'm ashamed of the work ethic of the majority of our foreign players ( wonder why foreign teams bought alot of koreans?). While foreign players like TT1 are considered "pros" there is nothing "professional" about them.
i can cry while practicing at the same time, i usually start my day off with a bit of whining then i spend the rest of the day training
I am not trying to be a dick, I understand if posting on TL is a way to release stress then fine, I just don't want another foreign progamer representing the World vs Korea, to be voicing these frustrations with such poor thought and little effort, having obviously not put forth necessary effort to figure out the implications of the new changes (its been about 3 days man). The public forum isnt the place for that, The strategy forum is having a lovely discussion on the queen range buff, we could use less people like you HERE and more people like you THERE! I hope you do spend the rest of the day training, because the sc2 foreign scene is being replaced by the korean scene (you were after all, no offence). frankly, I like rooting for foreigners cause I am a foreigners and korean winner interview live translation sucks alot of ________ anyway.
You're not being a dick. Only restating a truth that has been told too many times to count at this point. It's okay though. Some people do not learn.
On May 12 2012 15:22 aHaTsc wrote: Are you joking? Stargate openers are weaker because to defend against ground pressure all zerg has to do is make queens, which cost no gas and no larva. Also those queens defend against air attacks.
Like I know it might actually take some thought to form that together, but please think about it before you post that stargate openers aren't indirectly affected by this change.
On topic, the worst part about this change is that it takes away any zerg decision making on whether to make drones or defending units because all they need now is a lot of queens.
That's a small change in the meta-game. Not a severe balance issue.
Like, honestly I bet TT1 hasn't even tried to do a 4 gate with fucking +1 armor instead of attack. Like that simple thing means the queens damage is cut in HALF. 2 x 4, ---> 2 x 2 and lings do 1 less damage also. Like jesus christ zealots would be impossible to kill without roaches. This is still strategy forum stuff, I think post like these should be made if the strategy forums comes up with shit nothing after a month and zergs have an actual > 50% winrate Z v P in the TLPD statistics.
Come to think about it, the SC2 strategy section is taking over the SC2 general lol. Why exactly is this in SC2 general?
God knows, theres been at least 3 threads in the strat section on the same topic infinitely more useful than this one. I honestly think the casual players and lower league players have all dropped out. As a result the serious players not stricken with ladder fear and enough time and patience to get to masters have turned to create a thriving community in the strategy section.
People arguing that zergs will start building more queens to begin with to hold off stargate pressure is dumb. If you build to many queens then 2 base all in attacks simply won't be defendable because queens aren't quite up to par with a roach.
Stop whining about 4 gate pressure as well. Oh no, one of your all in builds has become slightly less effective.
You aren't going to see people spamming queens in ZvP.... it's impossible because 2 base attacks are to strong to be held off by queens. You will see alot more queens made in ZvT but that's fair enough, marauder/hellion pushes were way to strong for zerg to handle without having to screw up their own economy just to defend against it.
On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote: As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or...
Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention?
Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby.
I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese.
What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about?
And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them.
I'm not complaining anything I just shared my thoughts and only one of them which could be kept complaint is that the change wasn't needed and was unnecessary. Your gameplay sounds like you are under diamond so this isn't about races or units... And there's also one victim that many ppl havent spoken about. Reaper... Blizz keeps hitting dead horse. ;(
By allins I mean the popular baneling roach for example or any of that sort that just comes out of 2base. Not like it's unscoutable but some builds may have little harder time. You also remind me of general wowplayers who take a side and defend one race over another and yell for buffs for "us" and nerfs for "them" like other race is your enemy. And everyone playing other race has worse opinion by default.
Personally i think the biggest problem will be scouting in PvZ as sneaking the probe in might be next to impossible. This coupled with the sligtly faster overlords may spell disaster for the MU as one race gets worse scouting and the other gets slightly better scouting.
The queen buff may or may not be to good, personally i dont like it (for variuos reasons) but its to early to tell what level of impact it will have.
I was opening gateway,nexus,forge and putting on very early 2 or 3 crono'd zealot pressure. Many zergs are caught off guard by this and took damage or were forced into a lot of lings. It just doesn't do anything now, the zerg can make his first 2 lings expand and defend it easily with a queen and some worker micro.
On May 12 2012 15:26 Braric wrote: I mean yes he may be crying imbalance to some degree, however unlike a lot of the community and even pro players hes making statements and backing them with actual discussion, and if you think that a lot of the top end players don't cry about imbalance then look again.
I've seen tons of twitter posts of top Koreans and even GSL champions complaining, (Nestea, DRG, MVP, etc) I mean hell even Flash complained about Protoss in his most recent interview. I mean obviously practicing a lot is always a good thing but there comes a point where frustration of something you may deem unfair can get in the way of that, as a pro player it is their job to overcome this, however I see no problem what so ever with addressing your concerns and sparking discussion. A problem occurs when you take the Idra approach and simply stop practicing and even trying in a certain match up because you think it's impossible to win in.
dude... he has a big name but he sure as hell is no SC2 expert.
It could actually be considered a sign of imbalance as zerg has the fewest amount of players of all 3 races.
I can agree that some P early game pressures got somewhat nullified by this change, (voidray + zealot, light gateway pressures) but I wouldn't call it early game breaking. We'll have to see how this one turns out.
Why did zergs not do this before, if it is so strong? +2range means like 1 extra shot before the zealot pressure reaches your queens, I'd imagine that to not be gamebreaking.
Also after watching TLO getting crushed with massqueen into queen/roach to simple immortal/gateway allins, makes me wonder if this really is an issue. Sounds like way to early to call for me. Further more, until now, Zergs have been delaying their queens in ZvP for quite some time, not sure if the current 3base builds would even theoretically be able to get those 5queens and the connecting creep in time, while maintaining their economic strengths completly.
? It's not like Zerg always need roachs to defend against 4 gate, spanishwa had always defended the 4 gate with gasless spines 4 queen build (even before warp gate was nerfed if I remember correctly)
On May 12 2012 17:42 Big J wrote: Why did zergs not do this before, if it is so strong? +2range means like 1 extra shot before the zealot pressure reaches your queens, I'd imagine that to not be gamebreaking.
Also after watching TLO getting crushed with massqueen into queen/roach to simple immortal/gateway allins, makes me wonder if this really is an issue. Sounds like way to early to call for me. Further more, until now, Zergs have been delaying their queens in ZvP for quite some time, not sure if the current 3base builds would even theoretically be able to get those 5queens and the connecting creep in time, while maintaining their economic strengths completly.
@ first point, its not that the queen gets 1 more hit, its that the zerg can kite zealots with queens a LOT easier now with more room for error. a queen on creep is the same speed as a zealot.
@second point, it means you dont need roaches to defend +1 zealots, and with the later addition of gas, you therefore have a lot higher mineral count, so you can more than afford a whole bunch of queens, and you have HEAPS of time to spread creep.
On May 12 2012 17:42 Big J wrote: Why did zergs not do this before, if it is so strong? +2range means like 1 extra shot before the zealot pressure reaches your queens, I'd imagine that to not be gamebreaking.
Also after watching TLO getting crushed with massqueen into queen/roach to simple immortal/gateway allins, makes me wonder if this really is an issue. Sounds like way to early to call for me. Further more, until now, Zergs have been delaying their queens in ZvP for quite some time, not sure if the current 3base builds would even theoretically be able to get those 5queens and the connecting creep in time, while maintaining their economic strengths completly.
@ first point, its not that the queen gets 1 more hit, its that the zerg can kite zealots with queens a LOT easier now with more room for error. a queen on creep is the same speed as a zealot.
@second point, it means you dont need roaches to defend +1 zealots, and with the later addition of gas, you therefore have a lot higher mineral count, so you can more than afford a whole bunch of queens, and you have HEAPS of time to spread creep.
As far as I have seen and played with queens against zealots, it's close to useless to kite zealots with queens, due to the long attack animation. It's also not what TT1 wrote, he said the queens would simply tank the damage while lings surround, so I'd think that not even he sees it this way. Only if we put stalkers in the equation which were invincible to queens before, there is a difference. Second point is only viable for discussion, if the first point does really hold. Also you can't delay your stuff forever. The current ZvP builds already go lair before building roaches, to get the roach speed in time. If you don't do that, you can still have the same army, but you can't have the same speed (roach/ling) or +1 timings, not to mention all the other stuff you might want to get and that are needed to keep a Protoss from just blindcountering roach.
In a standard PvZ, the Protoss can't even get units out in the sort of early game where queens are the primary defense. Warp Gate finishes at the earliest 7 mins and by then the Zerg will have Lings, Roaches and Spine Crawlers. Queens don't play a primary role in Early PvZ.
On May 12 2012 18:11 MrMcIntosh wrote: In a standard PvZ, the Protoss can't even get units out in the sort of early game where queens are the primary defense. Warp Gate finishes at the earliest 7 mins and by then the Zerg will have Lings, Roaches and Spine Crawlers. Queens don't play a primary role in Early PvZ.
When I played ogsvines he got warpgates done at 6:35-6:40 off of forge FE. Just wanted to say your 7 minutes at earliest is wrong (surprised the hell out of me to). But I agree with you that this queen change isn't going to change zvp at all in terms of defense early game.
On May 12 2012 18:11 MrMcIntosh wrote: In a standard PvZ, the Protoss can't even get units out in the sort of early game where queens are the primary defense. Warp Gate finishes at the earliest 7 mins and by then the Zerg will have Lings, Roaches and Spine Crawlers. Queens don't play a primary role in Early PvZ.
When I played ogsvines he got warpgates done at 6:35-6:40 off of forge FE. Just wanted to say your 7 minutes at earliest is wrong (surprised the hell out of me to). But I agree with you that this queen change isn't going to change zvp at all in terms of defense early game.
Yeah you might not be able to outmacro zerg with your nexus first opening into 2 base immortal now, gonna be hard to win games without that advantage I guess :s
Could we at least wait and see how this turns out before we cry foul about imbalance? I hated the balance whining about Terran/Protoss from Zergs and I find it equally stupid that people are whining about 'Zerg imbalance' a day after a change.
I just tested TT1's idea in costum game vs comp very easy and the way I did it this is what I got at the 8 min timing:
4 more drones 2 extra queens (5 total with two more just started) 12 supply of lings nearly done 4 gases just started no evo no roach warren no lair and slow lings. Notice I did it without evo or spine crawler which most likely won't be the case in a real game.
I dunno...I think you need atleast one spine at the attacking location cause if you keep trading slow lings vs zealots you arent being cost effective. That being said, if you do this I think you get to be pretty safe at the 8 min. However everything will be delayed and I can't tell how that will work out against a two base sentry immortal push which I personally find alot more scary. Neither can I tell you if I would get the tech up in time to pressure a fast third. I think I need real game experience to know that so I guess time will tell.
But I still think that is exactly the point. This needs way more time and testing but for some reason TT1 throws away all decency and goes to the forum to complain on day 2 :/
Blizzard keeps saying that terran needs to do damage early/mid-game in order to be on equal footing with zerg/protoss. But they keep making the early/mid-game insanely hard to do outside of an all-in. So.... I don't understand these changes at all. It did exactly what they requested though, made early pressure on a zerg almost non-existant
gl trying to defend 4 gate +1 with queens and slow lings lol
pvz isnt gonna change much at all, denying probe scouts which wanna see gas in main is the only thing, and protosses just head for the 3rd anyways to see whats going on
I don't want to be rude, but everybody knows that at the moment there are more zergs than terrans.
So what? Such a poll is absolutely stupid and meaningless anyways.
That's a fair point. I've got a better version of the poll that should be both A) more hilarious to read and B) has more options besides the ones inermis outlined.
Poll: What is your opinion of the queen change?
As a being of pure intellect, I have no interest in Sc2. I do enjoy voting in polls, however. (40)
42%
I hate destructible rocks! (17)
18%
It is a blasphemy against ESPORTS. Repent, apostates! (13)
14%
I want 50 energy queens back. (13)
14%
The queen change was fair and balanced. (11)
11%
It does not matter to me. (2)
2%
96 total votes
Your vote: What is your opinion of the queen change?
(Vote): It is a blasphemy against ESPORTS. Repent, apostates! (Vote): The queen change was fair and balanced. (Vote): I want 50 energy queens back. (Vote): It does not matter to me. (Vote): I hate destructible rocks! (Vote): As a being of pure intellect, I have no interest in Sc2. I do enjoy voting in polls, however.
I don't want to be rude, but everybody knows that at the moment there are more zergs than terrans.
So what? Such a poll is absolutely stupid and meaningless anyways.
That's a fair point. I've got a better version of the poll that should be both A) more hilarious to read and B) has more options besides the ones inermis outlined.
Poll: What is your opinion of the queen change?
As a being of pure intellect, I have no interest in Sc2. I do enjoy voting in polls, however. (40)
42%
I hate destructible rocks! (17)
18%
It is a blasphemy against ESPORTS. Repent, apostates! (13)
14%
I want 50 energy queens back. (13)
14%
The queen change was fair and balanced. (11)
11%
It does not matter to me. (2)
2%
96 total votes
Your vote: What is your opinion of the queen change?
(Vote): It is a blasphemy against ESPORTS. Repent, apostates! (Vote): The queen change was fair and balanced. (Vote): I want 50 energy queens back. (Vote): It does not matter to me. (Vote): I hate destructible rocks! (Vote): As a being of pure intellect, I have no interest in Sc2. I do enjoy voting in polls, however.
On May 12 2012 19:42 Cereb wrote: I just tested TT1's idea in costum game vs comp very easy and the way I did it this is what I got at the 8 min timing:
4 more drones 2 extra queens (5 total with two more just started) 12 supply of lings nearly done 4 gases just started no evo no roach warren no lair and slow lings. Notice I did it without evo or spine crawler which most likely won't be the case in a real game.
I dunno...I think you need atleast one spine at the attacking location cause if you keep trading slow lings vs zealots you arent being cost effective. That being said, if you do this I think you get to be pretty safe at the 8 min. However everything will be delayed and I can't tell how that will work out against a two base sentry immortal push which I personally find alot more scary. Neither can I tell you if I would get the tech up in time to pressure a fast third. I think I need real game experience to know that so I guess time will tell.
But I still think that is exactly the point. This needs way more time and testing but for some reason TT1 throws away all decency and goes to the forum to complain on day 2 :/
Well, there should have been more testing to begin with, before there was even a queen change. This patch was pushed through really fast.
lol it's only been a couple of days, jesus christ. at least try to figure it out for a few weeks and then claim imbalance.I personally haven't felt much of difference, it's good against bunker pressures thats it. imo the overlord change is much better, but thats just me.
I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite..
On May 12 2012 23:18 warcralft wrote: I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite..
Ppl like you shouldn't be able to post on forums. You're addressing one of the best protoss in the world and you don't even think before you post. Obviously a range buff IS a damage buff vs melee units.....
On May 12 2012 23:18 warcralft wrote: I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite..
Ppl like you shouldn't be able to post on forums. You're addressing one of the best protoss in the world and you don't even think before you post. Obviously a range buff IS a damage buff vs melee units.....
probably a buff for protoss air because now its more likely that the queens autoattack zealots or whatever is on the ground instead of the air units you really want to attack with your queens.
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
On May 12 2012 23:18 warcralft wrote: I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite..
Ppl like you shouldn't be able to post on forums. You're addressing one of the best protoss in the world and you don't even think before you post. Obviously a range buff IS a damage buff vs melee units.....
lol no hate to TT1 I actually like him... but one of the best in the world? I'm sorry but just fucking no. He is good, and knows more then 99.99% of the forum most likely. But he is far from best in the world.
More on topic, I think this will be more of a snowball effect. Instead of the early lings for defence an extra queen will do. It will get more zergs to build more queens =more creep spread more transfuse = way easier to hold early aggression. Which then allows the zerg to macro pretty much freely. and as protoss or terran... if you let the zerg macro freely, you are fucked GG no re style.
Of course this is all just in theory from a lowly diamond ladder player.... Only time will really tell, I just think maybe they should have done a bit more testing first. Changing the unit that is a races macro mechanic shouldn't have been this rushed.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
On May 12 2012 23:18 warcralft wrote: I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite..
Ppl like you shouldn't be able to post on forums. You're addressing one of the best protoss in the world and you don't even think before you post. Obviously a range buff IS a damage buff vs melee units.....
You know Idra few days ago played TT1 on his stream and called him a noob that cannot play unless he has got a economic advantage
As for TT1 concerns, it is too early to know anything now. We first have to see what kind of new tactics zerg players come up with and then what Toss and Terran come up with to counter that.
On May 12 2012 23:18 warcralft wrote: I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite..
Ppl like you shouldn't be able to post on forums. You're addressing one of the best protoss in the world and you don't even think before you post. Obviously a range buff IS a damage buff vs melee units.....
PvZ queen change doesn't do too much. Queens are not really that good for stopping ground pressure and making more then a queen per base against timing pushes probably won't be that good. I also think that queens ground attack is affected by guardian shield now, while it wasn't before (not entirely sure though). That makes a huge difference in their combat potential really as guardian shield dramatically drops queen damage by 50-75%
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
How does queen buff help us against mothership and mass archon colo storm?
How does queen buff help us against mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
I rest my case.
Longer range on queens=>more defending capabilities=>less units needed=>more drones=>more minerals lategame=>better army vs mothership and mass archon colo storm?/mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
How does queen buff help us against mothership and mass archon colo storm?
How does queen buff help us against mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
I rest my case.
Longer range on queens=>more defending capabilities=>less units needed=>more drones=>more minerals lategame=>better army vs mothership and mass archon colo storm?/mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
1 queen = 3 drones.
I rest my case
And FYI.. queens will not stop any kind of stalker/zealot warp pressure. And if hes skipping roaches, hes losing even more larva and drone capability.
Any spine he makes is -3 drones as well.
Why do people think that queens are some kind of super-tank now that they have a range buff? They still die just as fast and do just the same amount of damage. Kiting "MIGHT" work against zealots but you have to have creep for it to be of any use.. and last time I checked a zealot damn near if not completely beats a queen 1 on 1.. so 150 minerals vs 100 who's being more cost effective?
On May 13 2012 00:31 Th1rdEye wrote: Seems like no matter what happens someone will whine that thier race is underpowered.
Toss and Terran can still win against zerg, stop fuckin crying. thank you
How does queen buff help us against mothership and mass archon colo storm?
How does queen buff help us against mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
I rest my case.
The case is rested guys. Queens will not help in late game ZvP and ZvT so obviously its not that big of a deal. Toss and Terran can still win so everyone should stop talking about balance.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you defend with speedlings, you are less larvaefficient, so you have to make up for it with earlier queens or something else, which costs something. Sorry, but all of those arguements are completly untested yet, even TT1's. It all might turn out like you and TT1 say, but we will only know, once (and if) zergs go for those builds and figure out the timings for them. Right now it's a bunch of theorycraft that sounds as unrealistic as: "just go stargate and harass where his 5queens are not - remember they have to stay together to defend against a possible 4gate+1".
On May 12 2012 23:18 warcralft wrote: I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite..
Ppl like you shouldn't be able to post on forums. You're addressing one of the best protoss in the world and you don't even think before you post. Obviously a range buff IS a damage buff vs melee units.....
lol.....
post like these is what makes me lose all kinds of hope for this community.
On May 12 2012 15:18 Mr Showtime wrote: I see no compelling argument here. Nothing but a whine. Stargate openings are now weaker because queen's got a ground range buff? Really? Did you even put thought into that point? This is far from a "legit discussion," but that's not for me to decide......
Here's a compelling argument. Remember when roaches had range 3? They were that unit that nobody ever made. Now, with only changing the range from 3 -> 4, people are making roaches a large portion of their army often in TvZ and some people are building nothing but roaches in PvZ.
Imagine if they went from range 3 -> 5.... now look at the queen again, weren't people also saying "queens aren't very good at combat" with the addition of "they're pretty good against air though". Now, you give me an argument for why these two buffs aren't comparable but more extreme for the queens. Obviously mass queen has an infrastructure problem, so I don't expect 200 food queen pushes, but still - let's not pretend we don't know anything about the effects of range buffs.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
I can no longer put any 2rax pressure on zerg because the queens just target fire the marines too well while zerglings provide the buffer. Queens also kite marines now
On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote: As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or...
Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention?
Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby.
I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese.
What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about?
And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them.
I'm not complaining anything I just shared my thoughts and only one of them which could be kept complaint is that the change wasn't needed and was unnecessary. Your gameplay sounds like you are under diamond so this isn't about races or units... And there's also one victim that many ppl havent spoken about. Reaper... Blizz keeps hitting dead horse. ;(
By allins I mean the popular baneling roach for example or any of that sort that just comes out of 2base. Not like it's unscoutable but some builds may have little harder time. You also remind me of general wowplayers who take a side and defend one race over another and yell for buffs for "us" and nerfs for "them" like other race is your enemy. And everyone playing other race has worse opinion by default.
Argue what I said. Don't just use vague insults to my character and talk down to me.
It's a HUGE investment to go mass (5+) queen, which is what everyone's crying about itt. Bitching about losing to that is the equivalent of me going and bitching about terran because I tried to baneling bust and he had 7 bunkers and then claiming that bunkers need to be nerfed.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
On May 13 2012 01:03 GhostLink wrote: I can no longer put any 2rax pressure on zerg because the queens just target fire the marines too well while zerglings provide the buffer. Queens also kite marines now
2 rax pressure is easily counterable to start with.. the only thing it poses a threat is when you put the bunkers in some kind of poopy ass position where we cant hit the marines behind... now it truly comes down to micro, not you just putting bunkers and hiding behind them
Any zerg who scouts will stop a 2 rax anyway. They nerfed barracks build time a long time ago bud
P.s. thinking about it more, a properly timed 2 rax will have bunkres going down before queens even pop out, even off a 15 hatch 15 poolish build. If they go even later like 16 hatch 17 pool, its even later.
The only thing I can see this really affectiing is making reapers even more useless, tbh. -- A unit they should remove in HOTS or give some kind of ability anyway to change that anyway.
As far as the creep spreading goes-- us zergs have been using forward moving spine crawlers since the dawn of time to protect our creep anyway.
Shit, let us spread some creep.. come in a minute later with a scan and kill it all off... Saying hellions is useless is kinda stupid, because if you're going a 1-1-1 build towards banshee, or an expand type build involving those units, you will need the factory anyway, and the hellions can greatly prevent and scout a ling/bane all in coming-- so no, hellions arent useless anymore...they hold map control against zerglings no matter what a queen's range is.
Sure they might not be able to deny creep as easily now, but the truth is, a creep tumor dies way faster than a queen can kill a hellion. If you think zerg is going to make mass queens to protect our creep, then you're not thinking hard enough into the matchup and how hard a zerg needs to drone to keep even/pass a terran anyway.
Just get creative. Scan, target all our tumors at one time, kill them all of, retreat and REPAIR.. what did you really lose there besides a scan?
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
4g is pretty easy to hold as zerg with 3 hatch slow ling / queens / spines and unless the zerg is going blind 3 hatch i dont see why they wouldnt sit on 2 base anyways...
On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote: As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or...
Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention?
Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby.
I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese.
What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about?
And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them.
I'm not complaining anything I just shared my thoughts and only one of them which could be kept complaint is that the change wasn't needed and was unnecessary. Your gameplay sounds like you are under diamond so this isn't about races or units... And there's also one victim that many ppl havent spoken about. Reaper... Blizz keeps hitting dead horse. ;(
By allins I mean the popular baneling roach for example or any of that sort that just comes out of 2base. Not like it's unscoutable but some builds may have little harder time. You also remind me of general wowplayers who take a side and defend one race over another and yell for buffs for "us" and nerfs for "them" like other race is your enemy. And everyone playing other race has worse opinion by default.
Argue what I said. Don't just use vague insults to my character and talk down to me.
It's a HUGE investment to go mass (5+) queen, which is what everyone's crying about itt. Bitching about losing to that is the equivalent of me going and bitching about terran because I tried to baneling bust and he had 7 bunkers and then claiming that bunkers need to be nerfed.
But it's less of an investment than earlier roach warren and some roaches to defend early/mid game aggressions, "which is what everyone"s crying about".
Oh, and I love the part before where in the same post there is "forcing losses through simcity and spines" and " that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots)".
Wellthen the op has declared its not as broken as he thought. Id suspect the thread will continue though. Just consider if this is perminent blizzard will most likely buff your toys and quick enough that gsl racial balance will still be terran amd toss favoured.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
On May 13 2012 01:03 GhostLink wrote: I can no longer put any 2rax pressure on zerg because the queens just target fire the marines too well while zerglings provide the buffer. Queens also kite marines now
If you force extra Queens, then the 2 rax pressure has worked. anymore than 3 Queens early game is dead weight. You cant attack with them and they take 2 supply.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime
dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime
dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
Well then lets consider you a high level protoss giving this a thumbs up in general and look to them to see if they agree.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime
dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
Well then lets consider you a high level protoss giving this a thumbs up in general and look to them to see if they agree.
na im not giving a thumbs up to anything yet, needs more testing its just not as bad as i initially thought it would be
Tbh i fell its a stupid change done in a hurry for blizzard to show that they "care" after all the zergs lost so hard in GSL and other recent tournaments, much like the protoss/terran changes when the terrans were dominating that were pretty much stupid and "fixed" the matchup by making toss a little more imba and terran a little less instead of actually looking at the core problems such as the late game toss domination and early game terran domination. Its kind of the same thing now only that on a smaller scale and it affects both ZvP and ZvT by making zerg more powerful instead of affecting TvZ and PvT by making terran weaker and adding a little on top for P with the immortal buff. I really wonder if they take such balance changes seriously or just want to experiment with them out of curiosity to see what happens.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime
dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
I do know looking at the large maps from recent Tournements that the age of the Macro Terran is coming or is here. Korean Terrans go 3 CC really fast and even out expand Zerg on occassions, this combined with the fact Hellion cost no gas is maybe the reason for the change.
I can see the range being reduced to 4 if mass Queens are too good, but i think we have to wait and see how it pans out
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I don't think you are.
The zerg, by getting later gases, can have a further increased mineral income after getting speed. If this translates into a macro hatch in base as well as mass queens, if you don't miss many injects (theory crafting a bit here, just give me some leeway) that is an additional 14 lings per cycle IF the pressure comes. Also, yes the queen IS an economic hit early on for a bigger lead later, if they can hold off the pressure by being slightly behind in eco, the potential for the income explosion afterwards is even bigger.
I hope I put this across correctly, but 1st off, you aren't getting any spines, so thats one extra mining drone as well as 100 minerals, so lets say thats about 125 minerals extra to spend as you want, a few extra queens to spread creep for vision and speed buff and tranfuses, less larva needed in reserve to go "OMG NEED ROACHES NOW!" I think that the eco can add up to about 300 minerals for an earlier macro hatch. (which is a less risky build than an earlier 4th anyway) and you can insta saturate the 4th when you take it (28 drones from the 4hatch). If they can get the macro hatch up while eco'ing, scout the pressure coming which most zergs can do in most levels, and then they overproduce lings with the constantly produced queens it could translate into a lot of trouble for the early pressure by the toss.
Not to mention making stargate openings harder due to the presence of extra queens already.
On May 12 2012 15:18 Mr Showtime wrote: I see no compelling argument here. Nothing but a whine. Stargate openings are now weaker because queen's got a ground range buff? Really? Did you even put thought into that point? This is far from a "legit discussion," but that's not for me to decide......
Here's a compelling argument. Remember when roaches had range 3? They were that unit that nobody ever made. Now, with only changing the range from 3 -> 4, people are making roaches a large portion of their army often in TvZ and some people are building nothing but roaches in PvZ.
Imagine if they went from range 3 -> 5.... now look at the queen again, weren't people also saying "queens aren't very good at combat" with the addition of "they're pretty good against air though". Now, you give me an argument for why these two buffs aren't comparable but more extreme for the queens. Obviously mass queen has an infrastructure problem, so I don't expect 200 food queen pushes, but still - let's not pretend we don't know anything about the effects of range buffs.
I don't know what world you play starcraft 2 in but in my world zerg used roaches when their range was 3. You do have a point that tiny buffs can make critical differences but your example is terrible and just untrue.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime
dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
yep those kind of builds will be alot weaker now
but im not going to say any of them were too powerful or anything needed a buff. tvz always felt like the most balanced matchup in the game for a long time. zerg did however have huge issues not overcommiting to units in response to possible dual medivac timings or mass car marauder etc, while at the same time if terran did 3oc almost all those units have to had been drones else youd fall behind. the 2 ways to scout it was zergling running into the front (which was pretty damn unreliable, i dont like to do it) or saccing ana overlord (which was very hit and miss. if marines were ready it didnt work pretty much, and sadly i say this might still be the case). the only scenario it helps with is if the marines are out of position, the overlord goes in and they send the marines once in vision and now the overlord will get much farther than it could before. but yes sending in the overlord right over a marine is still not going to work. i still think this drone balancing vs 8:30 minute timings, 9:30 minute timings or 3oc builds is kinda hard to scout against a terran who is on top of his game to deny the scouting, but most of the time they dont even bother and most zergs in EU dont even bother trying to scout they just build units blindly and if terran did 3oc they fight from behind and usually lose if the terran is good enough lol
but throwing in the queen buff all of a sudden now i dont fear 3oc builds at all since i feel safe to take my 3rd hatch on my 3rd base rather than a macro hatch and that itself gives alot more potential into the macro game
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime
dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
yep those kind of builds will be alot weaker now
but im not going to say any of them were too powerful or anything needed a buff. tvz always felt like the most balanced matchup in the game for a long time. zerg did however have huge issues not overcommiting to units in response to possible dual medivac timings or mass car marauder etc, while at the same time if terran did 3oc almost all those units have to had been drones else youd fall behind. the 2 ways to scout it was zergling running into the front (which was pretty damn unreliable, i dont like to do it) or saccing ana overlord (which was very hit and miss. if marines were ready it didnt work pretty much, and sadly i say this might still be the case). the only scenario it helps with is if the marines are out of position, the overlord goes in and they send the marines once in vision and now the overlord will get much farther than it could before. but yes sending in the overlord right over a marine is still not going to work. i still think this drone balancing vs 8:30 minute timings, 9:30 minute timings or 3oc builds is kinda hard to scout against a terran who is on top of his game to deny the scouting, but most of the time they dont even bother and most zergs in EU dont even bother trying to scout they just build units blindly and if terran did 3oc they fight from behind and usually lose if the terran is good enough lol
but throwing in the queen buff all of a sudden now i dont fear 3oc builds at all since i feel safe to take my 3rd hatch on my 3rd base rather than a macro hatch and that itself gives alot more potential into the macro game
Im only a mid high master zerg on NA, But I agree, The queen buff has let me feel safe to take a super early third. I have been modeling my z v t after my z v p with a quick 3 hatch. It's just a matter of feeling out the speed and drone timings, (dual gas at 36-44 (with 2 drones in each geyser) off a gasless expand feels alright, to get speed up to deal with helion pressure off of 1 rax fe type builds. I was able to defend against banshees after i scouted just a few helions and marines, 1 spine at nat and third seemed alright. with 6 gas I was able to go into double evo and spire after defending those pushes with a few banes and lots of lings. I tooka macro hatch in addition to my third around 70 supply. I would doubtless say the queen buff has opened ALOT of possibilites z v t. It feels really good when I don't have to roach ling bane all in, and I can play out a macro game with strong mechanics against a 3cc. I am not sure how scouting with these quicker ovies will go at higher levels though.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
just wait until my 1 spine evo 3 queens abuse ur zealots trying to get something done :-)
remember +1 zealots vs evos, hydra dens and sunkens? zerg needed that to survive i dont see why its not efficient in this game too
at least they did away with the 50 energy thing, that woulda been hellllllllla imba. But the overlord + queen range definitely makes it almost impossible for P / T to harass Z early now. I did switch to Z because of the changes, with instant results, already have a higher win % on ladder and not even good with them yet.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
just wait until my 1 spine evo 3 queens abuse ur zealots trying to get something done :-)
remember +1 zealots vs evos, hydra dens and sunkens? zerg needed that to survive i dont see why its not efficient in this game too
imo if u 4hatch and do that style u would die to an 8gate allin, protoss can open 4g and adapt their followup pretty easily, if i scout ur spine evo wall i can then start warping in zeal sentrys while adding 4gates then attack with zeal sentry stalker, ur lair would be super delayed so no roach speed or burrow
On May 13 2012 05:06 ChosenSC2 wrote: at least they did away with the 50 energy thing, that woulda been hellllllllla imba. But the overlord + queen range definitely makes it almost impossible for P / T to harass Z early now. I did switch to Z because of the changes, with instant results, already have a higher win % on ladder and not even good with them yet.
You aren´t serious, are you? I mean if 5 zealots walk into your third with only 1 queen the two additional shots won´t change a whole lot i believe.
I dont see how a 4gate is going to be nullified by this change?
If you have 4 queens on 3 hatches which is standard after going two quick expoes, one will be spreading creep and the other three will be divided on three different hatches.
1) It's going to take time to get all your queens to the place where the zealots are warped in, and if he chooses to defend with his queens he loses injects and tumors.
2) Queen dps is insufficient vs zealots, even if you can kite them more easily now (you could kite zealots pre-patch) you can still warp in faster than they die, forcing units from the zerg and probably a drone pull if there weren't units already.
I admit i haven't read the thread, but it just seemed weird to me. Also, Stephano does not max on 11 minuts after defending pressure, 11:11 was his record when being allowed to macro freely.
On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote: PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses.
did you even read the fucking post?
why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense
and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is.
If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder
Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
just wait until my 1 spine evo 3 queens abuse ur zealots trying to get something done :-)
remember +1 zealots vs evos, hydra dens and sunkens? zerg needed that to survive i dont see why its not efficient in this game too
imo if u 4hatch and do that style u would die to an 8gate allin, protoss can open 4g and adapt their followup pretty easily, if i scout ur spine evo wall i can then start warping in zeal sentrys while adding 4gates then attack with zeal sentry stalker, ur lair would be super delayed so no roach speed or burrow
i never said anything about a 4th hatch :p and like i wrote earlier in this thread i dont expect it to beat 8gateways, for later i need units yep
I'm more concered about why you came to that intial argument in the first place. Why would you assume the attack range would have any benefit in holding off 4 gate pressure?
I guess Idra's right you really are just an idiot. Coming to conclusions like that without even testing. Very sad indeed.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure.
On May 13 2012 05:06 ChosenSC2 wrote: at least they did away with the 50 energy thing, that woulda been hellllllllla imba. But the overlord + queen range definitely makes it almost impossible for P / T to harass Z early now. I did switch to Z because of the changes, with instant results, already have a higher win % on ladder and not even good with them yet.
You aren´t serious, are you? I mean if 5 zealots walk into your third with only 1 queen the two additional shots won´t change a whole lot i believe.
Um well if a toss is FIVE zealot rushing you early in the game and u don't see it coming, I promise you aren't above Silver. I mean ya, you can come on here and post comments that are hard counters to anything... Ya the 2 range thing doesn't make Queens rape hard counters that you don't scout, but it does make the soft counters / standard play a shit ton easier.
The poll on the frontpage is stupid. I think it's gamebreaking for TvZ but I have no clue about PvZ.
It's impossible to harass queens and if there are 2 extraqueens its impossible to deny creepspread because i just cant kill like 4 tumors without losing 2 hellions which just isnt worth it. Also I need to stay somewhat far away from the creep to not get arbitrage queendamage in which means there is no way of denying 3rd. I resort to marauder-hellion allins until this is fixed/someone comes up with an effective idea.
I think a lot of people are blowing this out of the water... From my perspective this game can be quite uncertain, and I think that the majority of people will agree on this. I am all for switching timings, healths, ranges, damages around; the result should most likely be a new metagame. Most Zergs did not complain about the Protoss Immortal gaining +1 range, because the balance was "intended" for pvt.
I think protoss need to stop your crying. You learn very little from winning compared to losing (please debate me on this)
Maybe if you want to go air, you won't send your very first air unit across the map ( imagine if zerg did that. Let me just send 3 mutalisks to your base, then continue to rally, and then complain about how theres nothing I can do)
On May 12 2012 10:27 awu25 wrote: I'm disappointed that a progamer is already complaining after the patch has been out for less than a week. I'm sure the korean progamers are working hard to find a workaround this while I see foreigners just throw up their hands and say queens are OP instead of playing the game
Hes discussing the changes, working out things and putting down his thoughts in the forum topic. Discussing the changes and what it means for his match up is the first step to dealing with the patch change. He is and has obviously played with the patch or he wouldn't have anything to talk about.
You don't think Koreans get mad when the game is changed? Most pros unless there is a serious problem would rather the game be left around for them to work at it then blizzard change things and possibly make hours of work irrelevant.
I am sorry, but I believe I said this 2 years ago when seeing the actual game design of zerg, but everyone replied that I have no idea what I am talking about. If the Zerg cannot put any pressure back on his opponent because of the design of the race, it is crystal clear that over time, people will find ways to abuse the zerg to kingdom come. All sorts of gimmicks have been developped to fuck up the zerg early game by the two other races and most of them are insta-wins by the T or P if the Z does not respond perfectly.
Now, does it surprise you that, after all these tricks have been discovered, Blizzard are buffing the defensive capabilities of the Zerg? In the current state of the race, in order to do smth, they must be a freaking impregnable fortress to whitstand all that harrass in order to have a balanced game. Hence all the buffs to defenses and the nerfs to the more efficient ways of attacking (Reapers, Bunkers, Blink, Stim, etc).
If the game were better designed and the Zerg had offensive potential in the early game, you would see a lot of different things, but imo, as long as the game is as it is right now, I would expect even more buffs to zerg in order to make them even more rock solid in the early-mid game.
queens are pure defensive units, so if you scout a 4+ queen build, just cut corners a go for heavy macro. eco wise a P can be on par in economy using chrono and early expansions np. P and T need to play more reactively, just executing a prepared harrass-into-timing-push-build will not work any more.
On May 13 2012 05:06 ChosenSC2 wrote: at least they did away with the 50 energy thing, that woulda been hellllllllla imba. But the overlord + queen range definitely makes it almost impossible for P / T to harass Z early now. I did switch to Z because of the changes, with instant results, already have a higher win % on ladder and not even good with them yet.
You aren´t serious, are you? I mean if 5 zealots walk into your third with only 1 queen the two additional shots won´t change a whole lot i believe.
Um well if a toss is FIVE zealot rushing you early in the game and u don't see it coming, I promise you aren't above Silver. I mean ya, you can come on here and post comments that are hard counters to anything... Ya the 2 range thing doesn't make Queens rape hard counters that you don't scout, but it does make the soft counters / standard play a shit ton easier.
4gate +1 zealots after FFE arrive with 5 zealots. even above silver :-P
every P who complains about extra queens shutting down pressure should watch DRG/Stephano etc. in a standard game and watch their minerals. there is just NO WAY to get 2-3 extra queens without delaying gas and thats just not worth it since delaying gas means later ling- and roachspeed so you just die to 2 base all ins or cant pressure fast 3rds.
The range buff is only for ground ! This has nothing to do with stargate openings.This buff doesn't change her damage.I don't even know how a 3 to 5 anti-ground range buff can kill any early pressures from T and P. It is highly unlikely.
[QUOTE]On May 14 2012 04:41 drbrown wrote: [QUOTE]On May 14 2012 04:27 vervejl wrote: so queen does not even take production food count???? daaaaang[/QUOTE] i'm being sarcastic =P such a strong buff for queens, maybe thats what they should do next (no food count) =D
such a strong unit. mana caster, healer, larva inject, creep maker, 175 health. non armored unit... phew that was a mouthful
Screw it, I will be slaying demons and saving sanctuary for the rest of my days.
Blizzard will be busy making irrelevant buffs to zerg units whilst protoss players faceroll terran players with 40 APM and I could no longer care less. Terrible game is terrible.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure.
5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae.
It seems that when ever one race gets a buff the other to whine about it for awhile till they find ou oh wait I can do this to get past it which always happens -.- Would really like to just see an end to these threads but that will never happen so let us just continue to whine about perceived imbalances kay?
it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure.
5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae.
300 minerals is 10% of your worker count at 12 minutes.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure.
5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae.
300 minerals is 10% of your worker count at 12 minutes.
5 queens does 4 doesnt
i think delayed gas b.os are more viable now but i dont it would be too efficient if the zerg was to roach tech after that seeing as roach speed would be heavily delayed, it makes the zerg super susceptible to 2base timings.. teching into 3 base ling infestor/ling muta(not very safe if ur not sure ur up against a 2basing toss) or bane ling makes more sense cus u could hold off timing pushs while ecoing up, even tho making lings in the early game is extremely larva intensive having a 4th hatch makes up for it and u could then power up really fast while having good creep spread + a strong eco
On May 14 2012 05:53 dde wrote: it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much.
With out the range increase it leaves Terran FARRRR too powerful early game with the range of the Marines and Hellions :l an anything more cost wise would mean that the macro game of the zerg would be decimated so no it's really rather perfect where it's at.
I respect the discussion in this thread but TT1 I think you should highlight the third edit to get it clear that queen + mass ling is way more cost inefficient than the roach defense. I think this thread is sucessful in pointing out that 5 queen builds are now probably viable for those tht want to go that route though.
On May 14 2012 05:53 dde wrote: it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much.
With out the range increase it leaves Terran FARRRR too powerful early game with the range of the Marines and Hellions :l an anything more cost wise would mean that the macro game of the zerg would be decimated so no it's really rather perfect where it's at.
typical community post u think zerg is very weak early game based on what? because others on this community said so?
On May 14 2012 05:53 dde wrote: it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much.
With out the range increase it leaves Terran FARRRR too powerful early game with the range of the Marines and Hellions :l an anything more cost wise would mean that the macro game of the zerg would be decimated so no it's really rather perfect where it's at.
typical community post u think zerg is very weak early game based on what? because others on this community said so?
This x1000. Zerg has been doing fine against Terran for ages now. I seem to recall the ZvT winrate from March actually favoured Zerg players, and even disregarding that, TvZ has always been regarded as the most dynamic and balanced matchup. Suddenly now Zerg players are incapable of making it past the early game? Come on. I'm pretty sure DRG wouldn't have won a GSL last season if all any Terran needed to do was 2rax him or do a standard reactored Hellion opening.
Should not have changed the Queen's attack animation, thus making kiting vs ground units ineffective (because she takes longer to get out her damage). Just need get some longer (like the Spine Crawler) arms on that Queen.
The fact that Queens can kite Zealots, do better vs Stalkers, and remain very effective vs air is a pretty big issue for Protoss.
On May 14 2012 07:30 BronzeKnee wrote: Should not have changed the Queen's attack animation, thus making kiting vs ground units ineffective (because she takes longer to get out her damage). Just need get some longer (like the Spine Crawler) arms on that Queen.
Are you actually suggesting that this buff wasn't enough? My God...
Read what I wrote man. The old animation makes it much harder to kite because it takes much longer to complete the two attacks than the new animation. Thus you won't be able to kite very well with her.
The reason Blizzard got rid of the old animation is because it would look silly since her arms don't extend as far as her new range. Thus instead of creating a new animation, they used the anti-air one. Problem now is that it is easy to kite with the anti-air animation and do full damage to ground units.
Wonder what the next Nerf against Terran will be though, I've heard they are going to do something to the Thor, apparently they are not happy about Terran only making two different units(thor and tanks) in order to counter the entire zerg army, except for broodlords, which is countered by vikings vikings. Will be fun to see what they do next.
On May 14 2012 08:09 Integra wrote: Wonder what the next Nerf against Terran will be though, I've heard they are going to do something to the Thor, apparently they are not happy about Terran only making two different units(thor and tanks) in order to counter the entire zerg army, except for broodlords, which is countered by vikings vikings. Will be fun to see what they do next.
Def an ignorant hate post. You forgot helions
I actually had a Z tell me today that he A moved his banes into my tanks rather than bane-splitting vs my rines because "im zerg i dont have to micro" and proceeded to tell me T is still OP and had been since beta.
I cried for all the whining, excuse finding losers out there....after all these nerfs some people still suck and cant comprehend its THEM.
On May 14 2012 08:09 Integra wrote: Wonder what the next Nerf against Terran will be though, I've heard they are going to do something to the Thor, apparently they are not happy about Terran only making two different units(thor and tanks) in order to counter the entire zerg army, except for broodlords, which is countered by vikings vikings. Will be fun to see what they do next.
They'll make Ravens require a Fusion Core, just to rub salt in the wound.
i honestly think people are just being inflexible with their strategies, just like people thought balance changes were breaking things before (the only matchup that was truly broken was pvz and only at the highest lvl, 75% win rate pvz in gsl t.t) and the balance is still good for the most part, there's no way to know 100% how the changes are going to affect all the matchups but i don't think it's going to break the balance, oh no you can't put crazy amounts of pressure on zerg while going ffe and teching at the same time or taking a 3rd base or just going all-in and winning more often than not, sounds like its more balanced now than before. but, im zerg so perhaps im biased. also i think the buff was more focused around zvt, being that only the ground attack was upgraded and hellions could too easily win games at almost all skill levels, if you take a resource comparison based on what gets in via runby, 4 hellions = 16 lings, its sooooooo much easier to run 4 hellions in than 16 lings assuming your opponent is actually attempting to block, it still takes 2 queens to block (unless you have perfect placement which i see even korean pros screw up all the time) but it takes a longer period of time for that many lings to run up relative to how long it takes for hellions to squeeze by. also with a queen and a few lings of your own and your drones, you can stop a 16 zergling runby without taking terrible, terrible damage (assuming you don't put yourself in a horrible position) having that vs hellions does almost nothing but guarantee the game is over. just used to take so much more to defend so much less, now perhaps it'll be better, but yet again i don't know, neither does anyone in the world at this point. we all have theories and opinions but we just have to wait, play out the games and see how the meta develops.
If Zergs delay their gas timings even more than they do now, they will be unable to deny the Protoss from taking a third or stop the Protoss from madly teching.
Aside from getting a robo and a citadel for +2 attack, Protoss players can also take that extra third and hit with a strong collosus timing before your hypothetical 4 base Zerg can create a high-tech enough army to defeat it. Maybe Protoss players could even skip the immortals and go straight for collosus since the Zerg is delaying his roaches. The Protoss will just be lightyears ahead in tech and therefore be *almost* infinitely efficient against the Zergs *almost* infinite mass of roaches.
I am generally not a supporter of Zergs delaying their tech or gasses too much. Strong PvZ players such as MC know how to punish a Zerg for their lack of tech, which is why he is so good at doing 2-base all-ins against Zergs.
The only build I see this buff indirectly hurting is the Stargate opening if Zergs choose to make more queens. I know the buff doesn't affect queen-atk vs air, but it does so indirectly since there will be more queens.
It may be true that your gateway pressures will be easily thwarted, but your tech builds on 2-3 bases still be very strong against a late-gassing Zerg.
On May 14 2012 11:19 Brawndo wrote: All of these balance tweaks stem from one problem. Everyone thinking that they should be able to take bases early without any risk at all.
This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression.
I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them. Will there be a reason to have an early game soon (especially in PvZ) or should we just start at the 5 minute mark?
On May 14 2012 11:19 Brawndo wrote: All of these balance tweaks stem from one problem. Everyone thinking that they should be able to take bases early without any risk at all.
This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression.
I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them.
I would not call Zerg's Third in ZvP a right, but it is definitely a necessity if the game goes macro and Protoss has 2 secure bases from FFE.
As for the Queen change; I like it only because of possible changes that I hope come in the future. I would like to see Zerg whole game, from early to mid to late, be made more versatile, robust and efficient. The Zerg are not feared solely for they're ability to out number and swarm the enemy, they should also be feared for they're adaption, versatility and efficiency, these are monsters that are birthed solely to exist as ruthless killing machines that answer only to a hive mind, back in BW a handful of Lurkers, Defilers and Ultras were as feared as 100 lings surrounding the army, I'd like to see more of the former.
Obviously this would come at the price of not having as much Larva available, but that is an entirely different topic for discussion.
On May 14 2012 11:19 Brawndo wrote: All of these balance tweaks stem from one problem. Everyone thinking that they should be able to take bases early without any risk at all.
This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression.
I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them. Will there be a reason to have an early game soon (especially in PvZ) or should we just start at the 5 minute mark?
Protoss can't do much in the early game safely at all now. If a Zerg sees my probe coming between a ling and the 5 range queens I can't see their gas intake.
I think of 5 PvZs I've lost 2 to banelings and one to roaches as early 2 base all ins. I can't check their gas with my probe and scouting for toss comes way too late to see it in time. If they hide their lings and I don't see 30 of them or banelings morphing I can't really stop the bust at all. My wall just isn't ready for it
They made scouting easier for Zerg and harder for toss to deny so they can see when I'm doing an all in pretty easily after I ffe, but I cannot get to see their gas. I really dont want to make a full wall and 2 buildings thick with 3 cannons everygame as it sets a lot of my other tech behind.
It also sucks that their overlords move around the map just fast enough that they can spread them a little sooner and can see me putting up proxy pylons much more easily.
EDIT: I've hit archon status! Wasted on a somewhat balance whine. I think im just frustrated with the fact that I have such a hard time scouting for gas based all ins from Zerg now Maybe I just need to send 2 zealots into their main with one harrassing the nat queen or something and hope they take enough hits that a probe can make it in.
On May 14 2012 11:19 Brawndo wrote: All of these balance tweaks stem from one problem. Everyone thinking that they should be able to take bases early without any risk at all.
This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression.
I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them. Will there be a reason to have an early game soon (especially in PvZ) or should we just start at the 5 minute mark?
Ya i like this summary pretty well.
What amuses me most is that TvZ was considered relatively balanced (but terran favored lategame) when Ghosts had their 45 dps snipe. Then Snipe gets the nerf bat, and the matches swings into Zerg favored late midgame and lategame. All terrans had to compete in the lategame was the leverage they got with their pressure builds (2rax, reactor hellion, reaper), and then blizzard goes and nerfs that. All while 2 things are already happening in the background 1) The maps are getting larger, making pressure weaker and macro stronger. 2) TERRAN WINRATES FALL BELOW ZERG RATES BY A LARGE MARGIN
I just do not understand why blizzard would make such an uncalled for decision that hurts Terran quite alot, was relatively unnecessary, AND HELPS THE RACE ALREADY FAVORED IN THE MATCHUP! Gah do not understand! ><;; edit: by favored i am referring to the april win rates, and only because blizzard is so tunnel-visioned on win rates and statistics...
Terran is weak late game in every match up now. The queen buff has now made Reactor Hellion expands weaker, the most popular build vs zerg.
I'm not a professional player so I don't have any misconceptions that my opinions matter.
Still, I think that Terran is hard to play at the Master level because it requires intense micro management in TvZ and TvP as well as macroing. Protoss and Zerg require a lot less micro and the match up favors them as the game progresses.
I don't have any opinion on balance at the highest level, as I'm not at that skill level. I just feel that the casual/competitive Terran players are really feeling unrewarded for the amount of effort it takes to win.
Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote: How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine
4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ
You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure.
5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae.
300 minerals does slow down the max actually. That's 6 drones that won't be made in time, assuming the zerg is actually good and not floating minerals
On May 14 2012 12:07 Hexadecimal wrote: Terran is weak late game in every match up now. The queen buff has now made Reactor Hellion expands weaker, the most popular build vs zerg.
I'm not a professional player so I don't have any misconceptions that my opinions matter.
Still, I think that Terran is hard to play at the Master level because it requires intense micro management in TvZ and TvP as well as macroing. Protoss and Zerg require a lot less micro and the match up favors them as the game progresses.
I don't have any opinion on balance at the highest level, as I'm not at that skill level. I just feel that the casual/competitive Terran players are really feeling unrewarded for the amount of effort it takes to win.
This is just not true. I watch FP streams of all 3 races and at pro level Zergs are fastest and do more in the same time while having same win rate. While it is true that most zergs micro only until they see the fight go their way or until they need to pull their forces, they abandon the micro so they can click all over the map injecting larva, spreading creep and reseting waypoints.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good.
But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome.
People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing.
The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively.
It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous.
More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool.
I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc.
It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units.
Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good.
But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome.
People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing.
The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively.
It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous.
More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool.
I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc.
It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units.
Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count.
Great reply. you have essentially summed up all that is needed to understand about this new changes.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
i really thought u needed pool to start producing queens. Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good.
But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome.
People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing.
The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively.
It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous.
More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool.
I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc.
It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units.
Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count.
i really thought you neede d pool to start queens ,unless u mean after pool but in my experience that is not possible unless you went blind 3 cc althou you know more so ill refrain on comenting on tht for the moment
I don't know anything about BW. But from what I heard the fanboys say. Don't they make a lot of hatcheries and command centers there before aggression? Maybe Blizzard is shifting towards that? Or trying to do so?
And there are still possibilities to harass left in this game. Give it some time and Terrans will find a new fun contain.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
i really thought u needed pool to start producing queens. Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good.
But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome.
People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing.
The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively.
It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous.
More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool.
I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc.
It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units.
Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count.
i really thought you neede d pool to start queens ,unless u mean after pool but in my experience that is not possible unless you went blind 3 cc althou you know more so ill refrain on comenting on tht for the moment
Yes, I mean 3 hatch and then pool. Then they make 3 queens at a time, so that they can drone up to 45-60 drones and are impossible to attack because they have 6 queens with transfuse. I've seen it once or twice on large maps.
I don't think this buff will 100% shut down early pressure, though if a zerg player is going heavy queens and delaying gas / tech. Early pressure may not really be the answer anyway.
I'll expound upon this by saying, what stops toss from taking an earlier third (generally) without some sort of meta game fake? Obviously the threat of fast speed roach (burrow eventually) max out's into all ins off 3 bases.
Now if Z is going to go 3 hatch mass queens and delay gas, Z essentially will have no answer to a faster third out of protoss. So really if you see this sort of play you could feasibly take an earlier third and go for some kind of 3 base timing push instead with the goal of hurting the Z player before they can go to 4 bases and hive tech.
Additionally I don't think heavy queens and lack of tech will probably fair well against the opposite extreme of something like a 2 base all in timing.
So while possibly some kind of 4 gate zealot pressure, or 4 gate stargate pressure, or maybe even flat out stargate pressure may not be wise. That doesn't mean there is not better options that have now opened up that could be advantageous to the protoss player. You just can't be stubborn and inflexible about how you play.
Reading you talking about "how UP terran is" is pretty anoying (i've read your whines even in past patches when terran have +55win%). I don't remember even one unbiased post.
Blue flame hellions were one of the most freaking unbalanced things of the game. I've seen countless korean pro games, in every single match up, ended (or almost) by simple 1base flame involved harasses. When they used to hit, the defender just don't have enough dps to kill the drop/nat/whatever hellions before they did about...2 hits only? Enough to rape even a splited mineral line. And, i repeat, they worked in every match up.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
i really thought u needed pool to start producing queens. Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good.
But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome.
People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing.
The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively.
It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous.
More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool.
I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc.
It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units.
Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count.
i really thought you neede d pool to start queens ,unless u mean after pool but in my experience that is not possible unless you went blind 3 cc althou you know more so ill refrain on comenting on tht for the moment
Yes, I mean 3 hatch and then pool. Then they make 3 queens at a time, so that they can drone up to 45-60 drones and are impossible to attack because they have 6 queens with transfuse. I've seen it once or twice on large maps.
So you are complaining that Zerg before made 3 queens and 1 spine to defend front but now make 5-6 queens? 5 queens are worth 1 additional spine and 6 queens 2 additional spines.
Did you try to drop helions in main base and just roast drones? It is not like you could get into natural with helions before this patch..
On May 24 2012 16:52 Belha wrote: Avilo, you must read what you're saying man.
Reading you talking about "how UP terran is" is pretty anoying (i've read your whines even in past patches when terran have +55win%). I don't remember even one unbiased post.
Blue flame hellions were one of the most freaking unbalanced things of the game. I've seen countless korean pro games, in every single match up, ended (or almost) by simple 1base flame involved harasses. When they used to hit, the defender just don't have enough dps to kill the drop/nat/whatever hellions before they did about...2 hits only? Enough to rape even a splited mineral line. And, i repeat, they worked in every match up.
My point was that if you watch a brood war game, you would say the same thing about vultures. "Ridiculous, they're so fast, kill workers in 2 shots, and spider mines are killing everything." Things in brood war are sometimes more lethal than SC2 stuff and blizzard has continually toned down SC2 units. That was my point, where did I ever write Terran is underpowered anywhere in my post? Oh, that's right, I didn't.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
i really thought u needed pool to start producing queens. Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good.
But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome.
People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing.
The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively.
It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous.
More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool.
I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc.
It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units.
Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count.
i really thought you neede d pool to start queens ,unless u mean after pool but in my experience that is not possible unless you went blind 3 cc althou you know more so ill refrain on comenting on tht for the moment
Yes, I mean 3 hatch and then pool. Then they make 3 queens at a time, so that they can drone up to 45-60 drones and are impossible to attack because they have 6 queens with transfuse. I've seen it once or twice on large maps.
So you are complaining that Zerg before made 3 queens and 1 spine to defend front but now make 5-6 queens? 5 queens are worth 1 additional spine and 6 queens 2 additional spines.
Did you try to drop helions in main base and just roast drones? It is not like you could get into natural with helions before this patch..
Where the hell in my post did I complain? ??? ??? ??? Read and comprehend before you start spewing that stuff out. I was just describing a build I have seen after the patch that's obviously massively buffed because of the queen buff. Which is what this thread is about right? Jesus.
I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
I was skeptical about it even as a Zerg player like I was thinking it would make it a lot easier for me to get a third base in ZvT and it does since the hellions don't actually properly contain against 4-6 queens. In ZvP I don't think it changes anything and I know a lot of players would complain about it but I have been making 6 queens a game for a while and never attacking with them ever other than maybe if I proxy hatch.
Like ive still lost to 2 proxy gate with the new queens they aren't indestructible and they still aren't the fastest unit in the world even on creep.
A note about ZvT I have held things that I would never have held before with 6 queens like there was a dude on ladder who did a 1 base hellion marauder push and I just made lings and roach and never took any damage. Like I had creep pushed outside my natural and transfuse and then could use the queens as dps too so its really handly. I actually said to myself I wouldn't have held it if the queens weren't buffed.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
I guess pros do?! The point of this change is not to make defending base from helions easier but to defend creep spread from helions easier. Before making few helions was too big of a contain to Zergs unless they went roaches.
On May 24 2012 20:20 FlukyS wrote: I was skeptical about it even as a Zerg player like I was thinking it would make it a lot easier for me to get a third base in ZvT and it does since the hellions don't actually properly contain against 4-6 queens. In ZvP I don't think it changes anything and I know a lot of players would complain about it but I have been making 6 queens a game for a while and never attacking with them ever other than maybe if I proxy hatch.
Like ive still lost to 2 proxy gate with the new queens they aren't indestructible and they still aren't the fastest unit in the world even on creep.
A note about ZvT I have held things that I would never have held before with 6 queens like there was a dude on ladder who did a 1 base hellion marauder push and I just made lings and roach and never took any damage. Like I had creep pushed outside my natural and transfuse and then could use the queens as dps too so its really handly. I actually said to myself I wouldn't have held it if the queens weren't buffed.
This to me sounds like you would have done the same before if you made more queens then. This has nothing to do with the patch, only with you changing your build order and strategy.
But, that raises an interesting point. Zerg wants to creep spread across the map as much as possible, as it makes it easier for them to scout/move out and defend. Hellion harass delayed that by a minute or two. How does terran stop/delay the creep spread now without a significant portion of their army?
On May 24 2012 20:49 Arachne wrote: But, that raises an interesting point. Zerg wants to creep spread across the map as much as possible, as it makes it easier for them to scout/move out and defend. Hellion harass delayed that by a minute or two. How does terran stop/delay the creep spread now without a significant portion of their army?
Raven and banshees.
Against mass queen builds transitioning into infestors? How?
On May 12 2012 07:34 mTwTT1 wrote: ]by giving the queen a range buff blizzard has basically removed any cost-effective way for us to harass zerg's
This is just not true. The range buff on the queens in PvZ basically means you can no longer warp 4 zealots and simply right click a queen and kill it or force it to run away. There are a number of ways to harrass zerg in the early-mid game, either by 2-3 gate pushes, warp prism sentry drops, phoenix + void ray, etc.
Basically you're just gonna have to be more creative and figure out ways to deal with this. Frankly I think it's a minor detail.
I noticed that Terran has been getting stomped by zerg in gsl lately...so I went through all the ZvT GSL matches post patch. Zerg is 20-7 in ZvT post patch in GSL. Small sample size I know, interpret it how you wish...
On May 12 2012 07:34 mTwTT1 wrote: ]by giving the queen a range buff blizzard has basically removed any cost-effective way for us to harass zerg's
This is just not true. The range buff on the queens in PvZ basically means you can no longer warp 4 zealots and simply right click a queen and kill it or force it to run away. There are a number of ways to harrass zerg in the early-mid game, either by 2-3 gate pushes, warp prism sentry drops, phoenix + void ray, etc.
Basically you're just gonna have to be more creative and figure out ways to deal with this. Frankly I think it's a minor detail.
Lets flip that train of thought in the reverse direction then. Do you think it's ok to stomp bunker rushes/hellion harasses cold by having queens now, because that's what the +2 range buff does to them. There should be some skill and creativity required to stop strats like those, and most zergs were doing so fine, and now it's been made infinitely easier.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment.
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not.
I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now.
I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way.
Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones.
Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better.
Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out.
Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way.
I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way.
I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all.
People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good.
But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome.
People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing.
The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively.
It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous.
More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool.
I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc.
It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units.
Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count.
Good post. I've also met that 3hatch build. I'ts actually ridiculous how greedy Zerg can be on certain maps now due to the queen buff.
I mean is this really how Blizzard envisioned Zerg to be played? I highly doubt it. You aren't supposed to be super safe when playing incredibly greedy and basically only making queens for some time. It's scary how fast Zergs can get 3 saturated bases even against mass hellion harass.
When you have the ridiculous late-game capabilities that Zerg does, it's really not wise to give them such an easy time to just macro up imo.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
May i suggest the following change to you, T gets a 100 Mineral PF ability called "geometry nuke", if the opponent doesn't run a worker in a triangle, a square followed by a circle, he gets eliminated.
Of course no pro gamer would ever use that ability, way to easy to train against and you can only die by mistake and let's be serious here, they can't be expected to make any of those.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
May i suggest the following change to you, T gets a 100 Mineral PF ability called "geometry nuke", if the opponent doesn't run a worker in a triangle, a square followed by a circle, he gets eliminated.
Of course no pro gamer would ever use that ability, way to easy to train against and you can only die by mistake and let's be serious here, they can't be expected to make any of those.
greetings
Lol? Having Queens in the right position is a set it and forget it feature. You see/scout Hellions, and you move your Queens into position and put them on Hold Position. Then you go back to managing your base. Simple.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
May i suggest the following change to you, T gets a 100 Mineral PF ability called "geometry nuke", if the opponent doesn't run a worker in a triangle, a square followed by a circle, he gets eliminated.
Of course no pro gamer would ever use that ability, way to easy to train against and you can only die by mistake and let's be serious here, they can't be expected to make any of those.
greetings
Lol? Having Queens in the right position is a set it and forget it feature. You see/scout Hellions, and you move your Queens into position and put them on Hold Position. Then you go back to managing your base. Simple.
You just bind a worker to a dedicated hotkey and shift-queue the figures. Simple.
This queen buff not only fucked but PvZ, but also TvZ, now its almost impossible to pressure a good zerg in the early game. Funny how blizzard looked at TvP stats and said "welp time to buff zerg?".
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
Bearing in mind that I haven't seen the GSL,
If what you've written is true ("the way to defend hellions is simple") then "a lot of people and even Morrow" made a mistake in a simple thing. While it is not impossible for a single professional player to make such mistakes, I would argue that if a bunch of professional players make mistakes, then said defense is actually not so simple.
That, however, does not determine an imbalance. In general, in a game of skill (even one with simmetrical pieces... say, a set of two games of chess in which each player uses white exactly once), playing against an opponent of similar skill is "not so simple".
In order for balance to be present in a strategy, you need it to give rewards that are proportional to the difficulty of performing it successfully against an equally skilled opponent. Specifically, a strategy that has a significant chance of putting you so far ahead that you've essentially won (say, 10%) should lower your chances of victory by a comparable amount if it fails (so, going to 4/9 chances of winning - approximately 44.4%). Of course, the calculations become more complicated if you include variable degrees of success, as actually is the case.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
May i suggest the following change to you, T gets a 100 Mineral PF ability called "geometry nuke", if the opponent doesn't run a worker in a triangle, a square followed by a circle, he gets eliminated.
Of course no pro gamer would ever use that ability, way to easy to train against and you can only die by mistake and let's be serious here, they can't be expected to make any of those.
greetings
Lol? Having Queens in the right position is a set it and forget it feature. You see/scout Hellions, and you move your Queens into position and put them on Hold Position. Then you go back to managing your base. Simple.
You just bind a worker to a dedicated hotkey and shift-queue the figures. Simple.
Why, though? What would having this accomplish? Hellions already had a clearly defined purpose that obviously wasn't overpowered unless an egregious, easily avoidable error was made. There are plenty of things in Sc2 which are huge disadvantages if you don't react properly: stimming at the wrong time, missing a FF, not splitting Mariens properly, failing to react to a drop, getting caught unsieged, and so on. None of these things warrant some nonsense like a "geometry nuke." Hellions were completely fair against Zerg because they put a restriction on how greedy the Zerg player could safely play, which is how this game should be.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
May i suggest the following change to you, T gets a 100 Mineral PF ability called "geometry nuke", if the opponent doesn't run a worker in a triangle, a square followed by a circle, he gets eliminated.
Of course no pro gamer would ever use that ability, way to easy to train against and you can only die by mistake and let's be serious here, they can't be expected to make any of those.
greetings
If you could make the ability fun, well designed, be part of terrans overall balance then go for it, but until then, stop making useless posts for starters.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
Bearing in mind that I haven't seen the GSL,
If what you've written is true ("the way to defend hellions is simple") then "a lot of people and even Morrow" made a mistake in a simple thing. While it is not impossible for a single professional player to make such mistakes, I would argue that if a bunch of professional players make mistakes, then said defense is actually not so simple.
That, however, does not determine an imbalance. In general, in a game of skill (even one with simmetrical pieces... say, a set of two games of chess in which each player uses white exactly once), playing against an opponent of similar skill is "not so simple".
In order for balance to be present in a strategy, you need it to give rewards that are proportional to the difficulty of performing it successfully against an equally skilled opponent. Specifically, a strategy that has a significant chance of putting you so far ahead that you've essentially won (say, 10%) should lower your chances of victory by a comparable amount if it fails (so, going to 4/9 chances of winning - approximately 44.4%). Of course, the calculations become more complicated if you include variable degrees of success, as actually is the case.
The issue is that once people get better and stop making mistakes, the chances to outright win the game will drastically lower to the point where balancing around the chance will end up killing the unit off in any other situation. Messing up with queens and ensuring that hellions get into your base and deal critical damage is just barely above the level of missing a critical force field. Sure, it's going to be damaging and potentially game ending, but balancing around top players making mistakes makes for a shit game where better players won't ever be able to differentiate themselves. This is a recurring trend and issue with SC2.
Also, people might say that hellions are free because they only cost minerals, but you straight up gimp yourself if you lose your hellions, or even a part of them, without dealing some damage at the very least. You lose all map presence and your followup tank push if you elect to go for one will straight up die to the lings that the zerg can make in one or two rounds.
When I open up with a reactor hellion build my intention is to make a 9 minute marine tank push with some SCVs pulled, and if I don't have those hellions pure lings will outright kill the push in a lot of situations, so my chances of success do fall drastically.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Eee wrote: how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground.
I think he meant it effected stargate pressure because the Zerg will (theoretically) be building more queens blindly now, to go with the new standard 5 queen opening.
On May 12 2012 07:44 Bloody101 wrote: How is this even going to effect void ray/phoenix openings? Wasn't the range buff only for the ground attack? Queen damage wasn't changed either so I don't see why pressures would be that much less effective. Sure the queen might get in a few extra hits, but it is highly unlikely that it would make a major difference in a fight.
Yeah it actually doesnt, and the situations where it does change are the ones that needed changes, so the buff is fine. The damage of queens for their cost is still very low, it is just a minor addition to have them hit vs a early gateway pressure for example, and they do come into play vs sentries immortal or any push involving lots of sentries and forcefields... Yes the zerg design is actually stupid and those timings aim on utilize that. Since hydras are fucking useless (i love the unit, I've tried to make it work for months, it's just a shitly investment that can only be made useful by a nydus all in, talking about dumb design... we already are the race that got the less units in the game, why make our only anti air ground unit non-viable? even nerf roaches if it means you buff hydras, 12 mins max out will be less strong which is fine with me, and we'll actually have another option other than infestors broodlords when it comes to a max army), the queen range is good, forcefields are too good mid game, and we need something ranged to avoid those "I canceled the potency of your army with 6 forcefields, you lost", and still, lets say you made 5 queens, pull 2 out to your 3rd when the push comes, it's still very minor damage, you maybe gonna have 2 transfuses for a spine or queens and thats it, not game breaking at all, but heading the right way on the balance level imo. And for terrans, I'd simply say that helions opening were over rated compared to 1 raxx expand, that map control is less usefull than a way better economy, and that I never understood why pros almost never went for 6/7 roaches DRG style who crushes helion opening and give you such an econ advantage once you killed 6 7 scvs. I guess pros wouldnt take the risk on some maps but, 1 raxx is just way scarier in my zerg opinion. and after the 8 mins mark, that rage buff is USELESS, queens are ok-ish vs a very low amount of units, after that it's just same old queen get massacred in less than 4 seconds by a stimed drop etc. So even if i'm zerg, objectively this change is good, and very light, people shouldnt whine about it, and just like Artosis said, it's good because people will experience more things after patches like this, it helps the metagame develop and thats always good, especially for T & P as I dont think there is much to explore in the Z race before HotS
i played random this season since the beginning as a way to learn all of the races, and i ended up in top 8 masters in a crappy new div so take my word with a grain of salt (while acknowledging i am a player of all races)
i play terran primarily so i will mostly see things from their point of view. prepatch as a zerg player, you have a few options for hellions, but they really weren't good. Essentially - make 5-6 roaches and take a quick third (roaches make you safe vs hellions + let you connect your creep or do some kind of roach aggression just to keep the hellions away so you can macro. the reason blizzard is making these changes (in my mind at least) is so that zergs don't have to guess anymore in response to seeing 4 hellions at the front. I am both a zerg and terran player, i know that 4 hellions at the front can mean terran has 3 orbitals, 20 hellions waiting to surprise me and roast every drone i ever made, a huge medivac/stim timing coming up, etc.
Zerg players like DRG, in response to most hellion openers would be aggressive with roach ling bane, and the problem i think blizz saw isthat terran players were harassing the shit out out of zergs economies with low committment units like hellions/banshees when in reality if you send roaches across the map, you're not banking on them living long term, especiallly against a terran.
While i like the removal of a "guessing" kind of element here is my 2 main problems with this: 1. terran players have to guess all the fucking time. once you get your 1 rax fe up, or your hellions get pushed back, as a terran player you are in the DARK. you can scan. or you can keep up with the zergs economy and be using mules. one of the most frustrating things as a terran player to deal with is the fact that it is almost impossible to scout a zerg player, and so a HUGE amount of my losses are from overextending with my army because it's impossible to gauge if i should be punishing him based on a small scan radius and whatever information it does give you. how do you know he didn't just make a third and mass units behind it instead of actually playing a macro game? you don't, because when you scan, those drones could be in transit there, etc. i consistently see bad zergs getting wins on good players in pro tournaments because terran players have attack timings planned and cannot scout that they have nothing to be punishing at all and instead need to wall the fuck in and get ready for the movie 300 to happen at their front door.
2. zerg after this patch is too easily denying scouting information while at the same time almost being guaranteed it from speedlings/speedverlords (lol)
Why give the race that wins 100% of their games with perfect information, nearly perfect information every game, and take a race who's supposed advantage was their ability to scan around and play conservatively/resiliently and make it so they play more in the dark than the other two races combined? it makes no sense to me. When i play zerg, i feel like i always know what my opponent is doing. When i play terran, i have no fucking idea because i'm so mind fucked about the opportunity cost of scans that it often costs me the game because i overextend. but hey, it's that or lose to larvae inject drones, right?
edit: this matchup just doesn't feel right right now. i dislike the options both races have and feel that the matchup will become as scripted as tvp if blizzard keeps doing their thang, chicken wang. i am really upset with this change, i feel that there were better ways to address hellions and tihat blizzard simply didn't take the time to think of them. really though, as shit as 50 energy was as an idea, i'm starting to like it more than changing the base stats on an early game unit that is made in every zerg game
Nevermind knowing what's behind the Hellions is solved by the Ovie buff. The defense was previously fine, and should be easier with the better information the Ferrarilords give. Why they decided to make Queens into superroaches is beyond me : /
In TvZ I haven't seen the Queen buff make a terribly big difference, Hellion openings to deny creep and ling scouts still works if the hellions just sit on the edge of the creep and kill tumors the moment they spread or when Queens try to drop them, I think like 4 Hellions can 1-shot a tumor so you can still slow creep spread down a decent amount.
Someone previously stated that deflecting Hellions with Queens before the patch was "simple and clear" but that's not really true at all I think. Most good Zergs knew how to fend off Hellions and a lot of the time could fend them off, but all it really takes is one slight mismicro, one unit slightly out of position and then BAM you lose 20+ drones for nothing. It's just that the punishment for not handling it perfectly every single time was way too much, like if you handle it all perfectly you aren't ahead at all your only reward is simply not outright losing the game, and if you don't handle it all completely perfectly you take an massive hit to your economy and likely just lose. Even without the high potential to lose a good chunk of your drones every game Hellions still perfectly justify their worth by just denying lings and creep alone.
In PvZ though I can't say much, it hasn't really effected my specific play style at all. ZvZ I really like the Queen buff however, makes holding off banelings and all-ins just a bit easier.
The buff makes PvZ really silly. It is now even harder to do simple pressure against the Zerg without going all-in.
As it stood before, there were a number of pressure builds that forced units and required micro to defend against. There were also all-ins which had no intention of just equalising the game, but intended to win right there.
Now, the latter have been pretty much unchanged. Queens having extra range means very little against a 6-8gate, or Immortal/Sentry all-ins. What it DOES affect is the effectiveness of pressure builds against Zerg - now, it is easy to kill scouting probes and easier to kite small-scale Zealot/Stalker pressure.
This doesn't necessarily make the game imbalanced in favour of Zerg - after all, the stats from last month in Korea showed that PvZ was heavily P favoured - but what it does do is the same retarded thing Blizzard has done with TvP.
Early-game is P favoured, lategame is Z favoured. They intend the player to do some shenanigans in the earlygame to even the scales going into the lategame, but now any pressure is normally either a) a crippling blow or b) a failure.
This nerfs the Protoss lategame even more, when so far it has all relied on either getting some sort of magical deathball composition or the Zerg screwing up massively. Now, stopping the Zerg economy is even harder, while it is still pretty much just as easy to do some shitty-ass 2base allin.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
May i suggest the following change to you, T gets a 100 Mineral PF ability called "geometry nuke", if the opponent doesn't run a worker in a triangle, a square followed by a circle, he gets eliminated.
Of course no pro gamer would ever use that ability, way to easy to train against and you can only die by mistake and let's be serious here, they can't be expected to make any of those.
greetings
If you could make the ability fun, well designed, be part of terrans overall balance then go for it, but until then, stop making useless posts for starters.
On May 24 2012 19:58 Chaggi wrote: I think it's just silly that Terran nerfs always seem to be really knee jerk responses that are either way too early or way too late (as in, it's been figured out) and this buff is just seems really out of place. OL speed? Sure I can understand that. Queen range? I mean, who has trouble defending hellions... seriously
A LOT OF PEOPLE. even morrow in the GSL was basically lost because his queens were not in perfect position
You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier.
Bearing in mind that I haven't seen the GSL,
If what you've written is true ("the way to defend hellions is simple") then "a lot of people and even Morrow" made a mistake in a simple thing. While it is not impossible for a single professional player to make such mistakes, I would argue that if a bunch of professional players make mistakes, then said defense is actually not so simple.
That, however, does not determine an imbalance. In general, in a game of skill (even one with simmetrical pieces... say, a set of two games of chess in which each player uses white exactly once), playing against an opponent of similar skill is "not so simple".
In order for balance to be present in a strategy, you need it to give rewards that are proportional to the difficulty of performing it successfully against an equally skilled opponent. Specifically, a strategy that has a significant chance of putting you so far ahead that you've essentially won (say, 10%) should lower your chances of victory by a comparable amount if it fails (so, going to 4/9 chances of winning - approximately 44.4%). Of course, the calculations become more complicated if you include variable degrees of success, as actually is the case.
The issue is that once people get better and stop making mistakes, the chances to outright win the game will drastically lower to the point where balancing around the chance will end up killing the unit off in any other situation. Messing up with queens and ensuring that hellions get into your base and deal critical damage is just barely above the level of missing a critical force field. Sure, it's going to be damaging and potentially game ending, but balancing around top players making mistakes makes for a shit game where better players won't ever be able to differentiate themselves. This is a recurring trend and issue with SC2.
Also, people might say that hellions are free because they only cost minerals, but you straight up gimp yourself if you lose your hellions, or even a part of them, without dealing some damage at the very least. You lose all map presence and your followup tank push if you elect to go for one will straight up die to the lings that the zerg can make in one or two rounds.
When I open up with a reactor hellion build my intention is to make a 9 minute marine tank push with some SCVs pulled, and if I don't have those hellions pure lings will outright kill the push in a lot of situations, so my chances of success do fall drastically.
it's all about risk and reward.
that's why 11/11 bunker rush etc were nerfed.
you can't kill hellions with queens, and if zerg is dealing with hellions with pure lings, he needs around 20 to deal with 4 micro'd hellions, in which case you would still be ahead because you delayed the third and forced lings. You can still scout the third timing and delay the third. You can still get your fast triple orbital
Agree with what's been said. OP. HELLOO. The buff was to queen ground range. And when you acknowledge that, does ANYONE actually 4 gate anymore? Like, anyone?... I can't remember the last time I was 4 gated (dia/masters border); if there is no FFE then something's up, and then zerg will just scout and turtle. If toss is 4 gating, so?... 4 gate is pretty much dead, IMHO.
On May 25 2012 01:05 Arghnews wrote: Agree with what's been said. OP. HELLOO. The buff was to queen ground range. And when you acknowledge that, does ANYONE actually 4 gate anymore? Like, anyone?... I can't remember the last time I was 4 gated (dia/masters border); if there is no FFE then something's up, and then zerg will just scout and turtle. If toss is 4 gating, so?... 4 gate is pretty much dead, IMHO.
On May 24 2012 23:17 c0sm0naut wrote: 2. zerg after this patch is too easily denying scouting information while at the same time almost being guaranteed it from speedlings/speedverlords (lol)
Why give the race that wins 100% of their games with perfect information, nearly perfect information every game, and take a race who's supposed advantage was their ability to scan around and play conservatively/resiliently and make it so they play more in the dark than the other two races combined? it makes no sense to me. When i play zerg, i feel like i always know what my opponent is doing. When i play terran, i have no fucking idea because i'm so mind fucked about the opportunity cost of scans that it often costs me the game because i overextend. but hey, it's that or lose to larvae inject drones, right?
edit: this matchup just doesn't feel right right now. i dislike the options both races have and feel that the matchup will become as scripted as tvp if blizzard keeps doing their thang, chicken wang. i am really upset with this change, i feel that there were better ways to address hellions and tihat blizzard simply didn't take the time to think of them. really though, as shit as 50 energy was as an idea, i'm starting to like it more than changing the base stats on an early game unit that is made in every zerg game
150 minerals worth of flying racks that are faster then new overlords are your scouting friends. Love them and use them!
On May 25 2012 00:32 BeeNu wrote: In TvZ I haven't seen the Queen buff make a terribly big difference, Hellion openings to deny creep and ling scouts still works if the hellions just sit on the edge of the creep and kill tumors the moment they spread or when Queens try to drop them, I think like 4 Hellions can 1-shot a tumor so you can still slow creep spread down a decent amount.
Someone previously stated that deflecting Hellions with Queens before the patch was "simple and clear" but that's not really true at all I think. Most good Zergs knew how to fend off Hellions and a lot of the time could fend them off, but all it really takes is one slight mismicro, one unit slightly out of position and then BAM you lose 20+ drones for nothing.
You can't simply "stay at the edge of the creep" and all is fine and dandy, that was the actual change. If you do, you will have those creep spreading queens dealing a lot of dmg to you. The lings aren't the issue, the queens are. Before if the zerg was really determined to attack your hellions you could sink in APM to slowly kill the queens/get them to back off until they truly commit to killing the hellions. Now you simply can't. If you try to, you will take dmg and if the zerg is good, he will cancel the tumor and just remake it when you've backed off. The only exception is, if you are lucky and dart in there exactly as the zerg is making the new tumor, you will be able to kill it and take minimal dmg.
And being out of position against hellions, you don't need to be just slightly out of position. You need to be a lot out of position(and furthermore, it's pretty much the same deal, if you are out of position you will hurt after patch) and the terran has to take a risk, possibly killing a lot of drones + loose map control or kill very few + loose map control. Hellion runbys can be awesome, but it's most of the time a huge gamble, unless you are allining/making a ton of hellions.
On May 25 2012 01:05 Arghnews wrote: Agree with what's been said. OP. HELLOO. The buff was to queen ground range. And when you acknowledge that, does ANYONE actually 4 gate anymore? Like, anyone?... I can't remember the last time I was 4 gated (dia/masters border); if there is no FFE then something's up, and then zerg will just scout and turtle. If toss is 4 gating, so?... 4 gate is pretty much dead, IMHO.
I get 4gated regularly. And I mean REGULARLY. Seems like 10% of my games, at least. Then again, I'm a random player that tells people my race, but not everyone believes me.
4gate is so much insanely stronger than people give it credit for though.
On May 25 2012 01:05 Arghnews wrote: Agree with what's been said. OP. HELLOO. The buff was to queen ground range. And when you acknowledge that, does ANYONE actually 4 gate anymore? Like, anyone?... I can't remember the last time I was 4 gated (dia/masters border); if there is no FFE then something's up, and then zerg will just scout and turtle. If toss is 4 gating, so?... 4 gate is pretty much dead, IMHO.
4 gate +1 weapons -> colosus timing -> 15 minute blink stalker 3 colo deathball. It's was a common build.. but if the early zealot pressure doesn't do anything your first colo timing pressure doesn't do anything and usually you just end up getting killed to a 3 base roach bust, or at the least stuck on two base. That's why usually you either see full all ins (8gate) or just straight tech builds such as 7 gate blink stalker, colosus 3rd base @10 minute etc. Though, I still believe taking out early gateway pressure builds while expanding really buffs zergs a bit too much. If people are not greedy and put down their roach warren at the correct times it's incredibly easy to hold any of those pressures.. you're just forced to make units. That's the point ><
EPT
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