EPTEveryone thinking that they should be able to take bases early without any risk at all.
Why doesn't Blizzard just start everyone on three bases because that's what direction we are headed in.
A legit discussion on the new queen buff - Page 21
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Brawndo
United States35 Posts
Everyone thinking that they should be able to take bases early without any risk at all. Why doesn't Blizzard just start everyone on three bases because that's what direction we are headed in. | ||
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cywinr
Canada173 Posts
Aside from getting a robo and a citadel for +2 attack, Protoss players can also take that extra third and hit with a strong collosus timing before your hypothetical 4 base Zerg can create a high-tech enough army to defeat it. Maybe Protoss players could even skip the immortals and go straight for collosus since the Zerg is delaying his roaches. The Protoss will just be lightyears ahead in tech and therefore be *almost* infinitely efficient against the Zergs *almost* infinite mass of roaches. I am generally not a supporter of Zergs delaying their tech or gasses too much. Strong PvZ players such as MC know how to punish a Zerg for their lack of tech, which is why he is so good at doing 2-base all-ins against Zergs. The only build I see this buff indirectly hurting is the Stargate opening if Zergs choose to make more queens. I know the buff doesn't affect queen-atk vs air, but it does so indirectly since there will be more queens. It may be true that your gateway pressures will be easily thwarted, but your tech builds on 2-3 bases still be very strong against a late-gassing Zerg. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On May 14 2012 11:19 Brawndo wrote: All of these balance tweaks stem from one problem. Everyone thinking that they should be able to take bases early without any risk at all. This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression. I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them. Will there be a reason to have an early game soon (especially in PvZ) or should we just start at the 5 minute mark? | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
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Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
On May 14 2012 11:25 BronzeKnee wrote: This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression. I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them. I would not call Zerg's Third in ZvP a right, but it is definitely a necessity if the game goes macro and Protoss has 2 secure bases from FFE. As for the Queen change; I like it only because of possible changes that I hope come in the future. I would like to see Zerg whole game, from early to mid to late, be made more versatile, robust and efficient. The Zerg are not feared solely for they're ability to out number and swarm the enemy, they should also be feared for they're adaption, versatility and efficiency, these are monsters that are birthed solely to exist as ruthless killing machines that answer only to a hive mind, back in BW a handful of Lurkers, Defilers and Ultras were as feared as 100 lings surrounding the army, I'd like to see more of the former. Obviously this would come at the price of not having as much Larva available, but that is an entirely different topic for discussion. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On May 14 2012 11:25 BronzeKnee wrote: This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression. I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them. Will there be a reason to have an early game soon (especially in PvZ) or should we just start at the 5 minute mark? Protoss can't do much in the early game safely at all now. If a Zerg sees my probe coming between a ling and the 5 range queens I can't see their gas intake. I think of 5 PvZs I've lost 2 to banelings and one to roaches as early 2 base all ins. I can't check their gas with my probe and scouting for toss comes way too late to see it in time. If they hide their lings and I don't see 30 of them or banelings morphing I can't really stop the bust at all. My wall just isn't ready for it  They made scouting easier for Zerg and harder for toss to deny so they can see when I'm doing an all in pretty easily after I ffe, but I cannot get to see their gas. I really dont want to make a full wall and 2 buildings thick with 3 cannons everygame as it sets a lot of my other tech behind. It also sucks that their overlords move around the map just fast enough that they can spread them a little sooner and can see me putting up proxy pylons much more easily. EDIT: I've hit archon status! Wasted on a somewhat balance whine. I think im just frustrated with the fact that I have such a hard time scouting for gas based all ins from Zerg now Maybe I just need to send 2 zealots into their main with one harrassing the nat queen or something and hope they take enough hits that a probe can make it in. | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On May 14 2012 11:25 BronzeKnee wrote: This. First it was the maps that became huge and have openings for the natural that are about the same size as your ramp. Now it is the balance, nerfing any and every kind of early aggression. I just don't understand it. Zergs now veto Tal Darim because the third has rocks (and a third base is now their right in PvZ), when Tal Darim used to be a dream map for them. Will there be a reason to have an early game soon (especially in PvZ) or should we just start at the 5 minute mark? Ya i like this summary pretty well. What amuses me most is that TvZ was considered relatively balanced (but terran favored lategame) when Ghosts had their 45 dps snipe. Then Snipe gets the nerf bat, and the matches swings into Zerg favored late midgame and lategame. All terrans had to compete in the lategame was the leverage they got with their pressure builds (2rax, reactor hellion, reaper), and then blizzard goes and nerfs that. All while 2 things are already happening in the background 1) The maps are getting larger, making pressure weaker and macro stronger. 2) TERRAN WINRATES FALL BELOW ZERG RATES BY A LARGE MARGIN I just do not understand why blizzard would make such an uncalled for decision that hurts Terran quite alot, was relatively unnecessary, AND HELPS THE RACE ALREADY FAVORED IN THE MATCHUP! Gah do not understand! ><;; edit: by favored i am referring to the april win rates, and only because blizzard is so tunnel-visioned on win rates and statistics... | ||
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Hexadecimal
Canada55 Posts
I'm not a professional player so I don't have any misconceptions that my opinions matter. Still, I think that Terran is hard to play at the Master level because it requires intense micro management in TvZ and TvP as well as macroing. Protoss and Zerg require a lot less micro and the match up favors them as the game progresses. I don't have any opinion on balance at the highest level, as I'm not at that skill level. I just feel that the casual/competitive Terran players are really feeling unrewarded for the amount of effort it takes to win. | ||
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Niriw
Chile13 Posts
On May 14 2012 12:07 Hexadecimal wrote: Terran is weak late game in every match up now. what about TvT? incoming ban in 3 2 1... User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On May 14 2012 12:37 0neder wrote: Define 'game-breaking.' Forget balance, I define it as how fun the game is to watch, and I'm losing interest. How much does Browder hate harassment, and why? It seems like he has a vendetta against harassment. Original 'harass' units have been nerfed to death, almost nothing one shots anything anymore in the name of 'not wanting noobs to suddenly discover they have no workers at their 3rd.' And I say this as a silver player who almost never plays but has been on TL 3 years and wants SC2 to be as fun to watch as BW. Why does Browder concern himself with minor tension points that are similar to those in BW that made the game exciting, while ignoring the huge issue with Terran bio and having no incentive to tech to mech (which people love to watch)? Myopia, unfortunately. Maybe Sigaty will take a more active role before all is said and done. Otherwise, I fear disappointment. To be honest, I care about BW's successor than 'esports' overall. I don't care if esports takes off if the game I love does not. I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now. I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way. Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones. Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better. Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out. Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way. I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way. I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On May 14 2012 04:56 gogatorsfoster wrote: 5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae. 300 minerals does slow down the max actually. That's 6 drones that won't be made in time, assuming the zerg is actually good and not floating minerals | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 14 2012 12:07 Hexadecimal wrote: Terran is weak late game in every match up now. The queen buff has now made Reactor Hellion expands weaker, the most popular build vs zerg. I'm not a professional player so I don't have any misconceptions that my opinions matter. Still, I think that Terran is hard to play at the Master level because it requires intense micro management in TvZ and TvP as well as macroing. Protoss and Zerg require a lot less micro and the match up favors them as the game progresses. I don't have any opinion on balance at the highest level, as I'm not at that skill level. I just feel that the casual/competitive Terran players are really feeling unrewarded for the amount of effort it takes to win. This is just not true. I watch FP streams of all 3 races and at pro level Zergs are fastest and do more in the same time while having same win rate. While it is true that most zergs micro only until they see the fight go their way or until they need to pull their forces, they abandon the micro so they can click all over the map injecting larva, spreading creep and reseting waypoints. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 14 2012 12:55 ZeromuS wrote: I think that they are doing what they can with WoL. And I think that they have done so much with patches that they can only do so much now. I mean if you trace back tons of changes they make sense but maybe in a wrong way. Hellions blue flame ruining worker lines for example. This was a huge issue in the sense that you put very little into the hellions, but they always did a lot of damage. Could the blue flame change from a while ago be reverted now? Maybe since queens are so good now. BUT Protoss has very little to account for this change. Stalkers don't kill hellions very quickly and can't remake probes the same way zerg can remake drones. Its a very hard balance. But i think, with lessons learned and watching the game develop HotS offers them a new opportunity to refresh the game and renew the gameplay. I think part of the design philosophy was to open up the game for the better while not making things like the 1a giant unit ball better. Though, I do think the deathball thing is really getting figured out on its own. I can't mass stalker collossus anymore. I can't go stalker collossus with FFs anymore against most zerg compositions nowadays. I can't just make 8 collossus and win in PvT now. The players are making more and more effective strategies that require diversity and control and all we need are the things that happen in between the opening and the diverse control oriented armies to flesh the game out. Granted, death balls work when one person is at a major disadvantage but when the game is even or when harass has worked you see the benefits later on in some way. I feel terran for this reason is the most complete army right now. I mean, sure they are having a hard time against protoss but they are sticking to MMM a lot still and not exploring too much else. However, with good harass protoss doesn't enter lategame with such an advantage that they one group 1A and can eat emps and still win. Maybe protoss can eat emp and still win with a major advantage but not in much any other way. I have hope for the expansion. I really hope they also leave the game alone and unless a serious balance issues a la 1 supply 2 armor roach comes up they should leave it alone for a couple months. Thats all. People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good. But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome. People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing. The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively. It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous. More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool. I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc. It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units. Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count. | ||
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Man with a Plan
United States401 Posts
On May 24 2012 15:55 avilo wrote: People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good. But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome. People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing. The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively. It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous. More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool. I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc. It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units. Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count. Great reply. you have essentially summed up all that is needed to understand about this new changes. | ||
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ShakaDEVIRGO
Mexico106 Posts
On May 24 2012 15:55 avilo wrote: People were terrible at defending hellions. Blizzard nerfed blue flame after literally 1 tournament, they didn't "give it time" like they do with most things, they just had the "Oh shit, Terran is OP again" deer-in-headlights type of balance approach because people figured out blue flame hellions were good. But really people were just terrible at defending vs blue flame hellions. You would see people 1A one control group of units across the map leaving nothing at all at home and lose 30 workers to 4 hellions because they can't shift click or have the multi-task to take units out of their 1A control group syndrome. People learned how to deal with hellions after they saw them a lot, but then the nerf came on top of that...so yeah. Some of these Terran nerf patches were pretty disappointing because they were given no time. People will reference the thor nerf the most because blizzard literally nerfed the thor in TvP after only 1-2 days of no sample size of games, no sample size of data, no nothing. The ghost change was also an overreaction drastically hurting TvZ lategame with snipe because they nerfed the ghost but left the raven completely unchanged while also leaving broodlord/infestor/corruptor unchanged. On top of that once again, Zergs had already figured out how to deal with mass ghost very effectively. It's happened quite a bit lately that things that Terran players figured out Z/P eventually figured out as well, but then those things were utterly nerfed to the ground for Terran on top of it, which is a bit ludicrous. More on topic with this queen change, from my personal experience lately in TvZ, it's basically broken the game. You are 100% forced into a macro game every game and it's incredibly difficult to do any damage if Zerg makes 5-6 queens. They do not even need to dedicate a drone to a spine crawler anymore, and the problem is even amplified on larger maps in the map pool. I have even played against a build that should never work, ever, 3 hatch before pool where the Zerg gets 6 queens and can stop all aggression 100% into basically anything, early third, mass 2 base units, etc. It just seems like now as Terran you're completely pigeonholed into going for the earliest 3 command centers humanly possible, or "getting into a macro game" which of course allows Zerg to freely drone up to 60 drones every game and then make units. Other Terrans should post their thoughts, those just are some of my personal experiences lately. It's much harder to control Zerg's drone count. i really thought you neede d pool to start queens ,unless u mean after pool but in my experience that is not possible unless you went blind 3 cc althou you know more so ill refrain on comenting on tht for the moment | ||
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Man with a Plan
United States401 Posts
On May 14 2012 12:27 Niriw wrote: what about TvT? incoming ban in 3 2 1... User was temp banned for this post. Hahaha. It really confuses me why anyone would do this. I had a good laugh of it though. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Maybe Blizzard is shifting towards that? Or trying to do so? And there are still possibilities to harass left in this game. Give it some time and Terrans will find a new fun contain. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 24 2012 16:05 ShakaDEVIRGO wrote: i really thought you neede d pool to start queens ,unless u mean after pool but in my experience that is not possible unless you went blind 3 cc althou you know more so ill refrain on comenting on tht for the moment Yes, I mean 3 hatch and then pool. Then they make 3 queens at a time, so that they can drone up to 45-60 drones and are impossible to attack because they have 6 queens with transfuse. I've seen it once or twice on large maps. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
I'll expound upon this by saying, what stops toss from taking an earlier third (generally) without some sort of meta game fake? Obviously the threat of fast speed roach (burrow eventually) max out's into all ins off 3 bases. Now if Z is going to go 3 hatch mass queens and delay gas, Z essentially will have no answer to a faster third out of protoss. So really if you see this sort of play you could feasibly take an earlier third and go for some kind of 3 base timing push instead with the goal of hurting the Z player before they can go to 4 bases and hive tech. Additionally I don't think heavy queens and lack of tech will probably fair well against the opposite extreme of something like a 2 base all in timing. So while possibly some kind of 4 gate zealot pressure, or 4 gate stargate pressure, or maybe even flat out stargate pressure may not be wise. That doesn't mean there is not better options that have now opened up that could be advantageous to the protoss player. You just can't be stubborn and inflexible about how you play. | ||
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