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It seems that when ever one race gets a buff the other to whine about it for awhile till they find ou oh wait I can do this to get past it which always happens -.- Would really like to just see an end to these threads but that will never happen so let us just continue to whine about perceived imbalances kay?
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it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much.
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On May 14 2012 04:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 08:04 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure. 5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae.
300 minerals is 10% of your worker count at 12 minutes.
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On May 14 2012 05:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 04:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 13 2012 08:04 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure. 5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae. 300 minerals is 10% of your worker count at 12 minutes.
5 queens does 4 doesnt
i think delayed gas b.os are more viable now but i dont it would be too efficient if the zerg was to roach tech after that seeing as roach speed would be heavily delayed, it makes the zerg super susceptible to 2base timings.. teching into 3 base ling infestor/ling muta(not very safe if ur not sure ur up against a 2basing toss) or bane ling makes more sense cus u could hold off timing pushs while ecoing up, even tho making lings in the early game is extremely larva intensive having a 4th hatch makes up for it and u could then power up really fast while having good creep spread + a strong eco
opinions?
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On May 14 2012 05:53 dde wrote:
it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much.
With out the range increase it leaves Terran FARRRR too powerful early game with the range of the Marines and Hellions :l an anything more cost wise would mean that the macro game of the zerg would be decimated so no it's really rather perfect where it's at.
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I respect the discussion in this thread but TT1 I think you should highlight the third edit to get it clear that queen + mass ling is way more cost inefficient than the roach defense. I think this thread is sucessful in pointing out that 5 queen builds are now probably viable for those tht want to go that route though.
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On May 14 2012 06:19 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:53 dde wrote:
it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much. With out the range increase it leaves Terran FARRRR too powerful early game with the range of the Marines and Hellions :l an anything more cost wise would mean that the macro game of the zerg would be decimated so no it's really rather perfect where it's at.
typical community post u think zerg is very weak early game based on what? because others on this community said so?
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On May 14 2012 07:07 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 06:19 Catatonic wrote:On May 14 2012 05:53 dde wrote:
it may not break lower tier level but queen at high tier seems to be pretty much broken in my opinnion. Which means i shouldnt have posted that on this thread. they gotta make queens atleast more expensive a unit that cost 150 minerals and does so many things and doesnt even need a larvae to be made seems a little too much. With out the range increase it leaves Terran FARRRR too powerful early game with the range of the Marines and Hellions :l an anything more cost wise would mean that the macro game of the zerg would be decimated so no it's really rather perfect where it's at. typical community post u think zerg is very weak early game based on what? because others on this community said so?
This x1000. Zerg has been doing fine against Terran for ages now. I seem to recall the ZvT winrate from March actually favoured Zerg players, and even disregarding that, TvZ has always been regarded as the most dynamic and balanced matchup. Suddenly now Zerg players are incapable of making it past the early game? Come on. I'm pretty sure DRG wouldn't have won a GSL last season if all any Terran needed to do was 2rax him or do a standard reactored Hellion opening.
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Now that maps are bigger AND queens are buffed, please give me back my 60 second barracks build time.
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Should not have changed the Queen's attack animation, thus making kiting vs ground units ineffective (because she takes longer to get out her damage). Just need get some longer (like the Spine Crawler) arms on that Queen.
The fact that Queens can kite Zealots, do better vs Stalkers, and remain very effective vs air is a pretty big issue for Protoss.
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On May 14 2012 07:30 BronzeKnee wrote:
Should not have changed the Queen's attack animation, thus making kiting vs ground units ineffective (because she takes longer to get out her damage). Just need get some longer (like the Spine Crawler) arms on that Queen.
Are you actually suggesting that this buff wasn't enough? My God...
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Read what I wrote man. The old animation makes it much harder to kite because it takes much longer to complete the two attacks than the new animation. Thus you won't be able to kite very well with her.
The reason Blizzard got rid of the old animation is because it would look silly since her arms don't extend as far as her new range. Thus instead of creating a new animation, they used the anti-air one. Problem now is that it is easy to kite with the anti-air animation and do full damage to ground units.
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It just kinda irks me that Queens can fight toe to toe with Stalkers while on creep :/
Don't think it's particularly game breaking though.
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Solution to queen buff:
Just introduce a super unit per race called Queen Raper.
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Wonder what the next Nerf against Terran will be though, I've heard they are going to do something to the Thor, apparently they are not happy about Terran only making two different units(thor and tanks) in order to counter the entire zerg army, except for broodlords, which is countered by vikings vikings. Will be fun to see what they do next.
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The new animation looks really dumb. Makes me sad.
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On May 14 2012 08:09 Integra wrote:
Wonder what the next Nerf against Terran will be though, I've heard they are going to do something to the Thor, apparently they are not happy about Terran only making two different units(thor and tanks) in order to counter the entire zerg army, except for broodlords, which is countered by vikings vikings. Will be fun to see what they do next.
Def an ignorant hate post. You forgot helions 
I actually had a Z tell me today that he A moved his banes into my tanks rather than bane-splitting vs my rines because "im zerg i dont have to micro" and proceeded to tell me T is still OP and had been since beta.
I cried for all the whining, excuse finding losers out there....after all these nerfs some people still suck and cant comprehend its THEM.
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On May 14 2012 08:09 Integra wrote:
Wonder what the next Nerf against Terran will be though, I've heard they are going to do something to the Thor, apparently they are not happy about Terran only making two different units(thor and tanks) in order to counter the entire zerg army, except for broodlords, which is countered by vikings vikings. Will be fun to see what they do next.
They'll make Ravens require a Fusion Core, just to rub salt in the wound.
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i honestly think people are just being inflexible with their strategies, just like people thought balance changes were breaking things before (the only matchup that was truly broken was pvz and only at the highest lvl, 75% win rate pvz in gsl t.t) and the balance is still good for the most part, there's no way to know 100% how the changes are going to affect all the matchups but i don't think it's going to break the balance, oh no you can't put crazy amounts of pressure on zerg while going ffe and teching at the same time or taking a 3rd base or just going all-in and winning more often than not, sounds like its more balanced now than before. but, im zerg so perhaps im biased. also i think the buff was more focused around zvt, being that only the ground attack was upgraded and hellions could too easily win games at almost all skill levels, if you take a resource comparison based on what gets in via runby, 4 hellions = 16 lings, its sooooooo much easier to run 4 hellions in than 16 lings assuming your opponent is actually attempting to block, it still takes 2 queens to block (unless you have perfect placement which i see even korean pros screw up all the time) but it takes a longer period of time for that many lings to run up relative to how long it takes for hellions to squeeze by. also with a queen and a few lings of your own and your drones, you can stop a 16 zergling runby without taking terrible, terrible damage (assuming you don't put yourself in a horrible position) having that vs hellions does almost nothing but guarantee the game is over. just used to take so much more to defend so much less, now perhaps it'll be better, but yet again i don't know, neither does anyone in the world at this point. we all have theories and opinions but we just have to wait, play out the games and see how the meta develops.
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EPT
