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On May 13 2012 02:10 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 02:07 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 01:57 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder  Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted? Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely? this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : ) Well then lets consider you a high level protoss giving this a thumbs up in general and look to them to see if they agree.
na im not giving a thumbs up to anything yet, needs more testing
its just not as bad as i initially thought it would be
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Tbh i fell its a stupid change done in a hurry for blizzard to show that they "care" after all the zergs lost so hard in GSL and other recent tournaments, much like the protoss/terran changes when the terrans were dominating that were pretty much stupid and "fixed" the matchup by making toss a little more imba and terran a little less instead of actually looking at the core problems such as the late game toss domination and early game terran domination.
Its kind of the same thing now only that on a smaller scale and it affects both ZvP and ZvT by making zerg more powerful instead of affecting TvZ and PvT by making terran weaker and adding a little on top for P with the immortal buff.
I really wonder if they take such balance changes seriously or just want to experiment with them out of curiosity to see what happens.
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On May 13 2012 02:07 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:57 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted? Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely? this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
I do know looking at the large maps from recent Tournements that the age of the Macro Terran is coming or is here. Korean Terrans go 3 CC really fast and even out expand Zerg on occassions, this combined with the fact Hellion cost no gas is maybe the reason for the change.
I can see the range being reduced to 4 if mass Queens are too good, but i think we have to wait and see how it pans out
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On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I don't think you are.
The zerg, by getting later gases, can have a further increased mineral income after getting speed. If this translates into a macro hatch in base as well as mass queens, if you don't miss many injects (theory crafting a bit here, just give me some leeway) that is an additional 14 lings per cycle IF the pressure comes. Also, yes the queen IS an economic hit early on for a bigger lead later, if they can hold off the pressure by being slightly behind in eco, the potential for the income explosion afterwards is even bigger.
I hope I put this across correctly, but 1st off, you aren't getting any spines, so thats one extra mining drone as well as 100 minerals, so lets say thats about 125 minerals extra to spend as you want, a few extra queens to spread creep for vision and speed buff and tranfuses, less larva needed in reserve to go "OMG NEED ROACHES NOW!" I think that the eco can add up to about 300 minerals for an earlier macro hatch. (which is a less risky build than an earlier 4th anyway) and you can insta saturate the 4th when you take it (28 drones from the 4hatch). If they can get the macro hatch up while eco'ing, scout the pressure coming which most zergs can do in most levels, and then they overproduce lings with the constantly produced queens it could translate into a lot of trouble for the early pressure by the toss.
Not to mention making stargate openings harder due to the presence of extra queens already.
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On May 13 2012 00:59 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 15:18 Mr Showtime wrote:
I see no compelling argument here. Nothing but a whine. Stargate openings are now weaker because queen's got a ground range buff? Really? Did you even put thought into that point? This is far from a "legit discussion," but that's not for me to decide...... Here's a compelling argument. Remember when roaches had range 3? They were that unit that nobody ever made. Now, with only changing the range from 3 -> 4, people are making roaches a large portion of their army often in TvZ and some people are building nothing but roaches in PvZ. Imagine if they went from range 3 -> 5.... now look at the queen again, weren't people also saying "queens aren't very good at combat" with the addition of "they're pretty good against air though". Now, you give me an argument for why these two buffs aren't comparable but more extreme for the queens. Obviously mass queen has an infrastructure problem, so I don't expect 200 food queen pushes, but still - let's not pretend we don't know anything about the effects of range buffs.
I don't know what world you play starcraft 2 in but in my world zerg used roaches when their range was 3. You do have a point that tiny buffs can make critical differences but your example is terrible and just untrue.
edit to fix a typo
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On May 13 2012 02:07 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:57 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted? Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely? this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
yep those kind of builds will be alot weaker now
but im not going to say any of them were too powerful or anything needed a buff. tvz always felt like the most balanced matchup in the game for a long time.
zerg did however have huge issues not overcommiting to units in response to possible dual medivac timings or mass car marauder etc, while at the same time if terran did 3oc almost all those units have to had been drones else youd fall behind.
the 2 ways to scout it was zergling running into the front (which was pretty damn unreliable, i dont like to do it) or saccing ana overlord (which was very hit and miss. if marines were ready it didnt work pretty much, and sadly i say this might still be the case). the only scenario it helps with is if the marines are out of position, the overlord goes in and they send the marines once in vision and now the overlord will get much farther than it could before.
but yes sending in the overlord right over a marine is still not going to work.
i still think this drone balancing vs 8:30 minute timings, 9:30 minute timings or 3oc builds is kinda hard to scout against a terran who is on top of his game to deny the scouting, but most of the time they dont even bother and most zergs in EU dont even bother trying to scout they just build units blindly and if terran did 3oc they fight from behind and usually lose if the terran is good enough lol
but throwing in the queen buff all of a sudden now i dont fear 3oc builds at all since i feel safe to take my 3rd hatch on my 3rd base rather than a macro hatch and that itself gives alot more potential into the macro game
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On May 13 2012 03:18 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 02:07 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 01:57 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted? Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely? this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : ) yep those kind of builds will be alot weaker now but im not going to say any of them were too powerful or anything needed a buff. tvz always felt like the most balanced matchup in the game for a long time. zerg did however have huge issues not overcommiting to units in response to possible dual medivac timings or mass car marauder etc, while at the same time if terran did 3oc almost all those units have to had been drones else youd fall behind. the 2 ways to scout it was zergling running into the front (which was pretty damn unreliable, i dont like to do it) or saccing ana overlord (which was very hit and miss. if marines were ready it didnt work pretty much, and sadly i say this might still be the case). the only scenario it helps with is if the marines are out of position, the overlord goes in and they send the marines once in vision and now the overlord will get much farther than it could before. but yes sending in the overlord right over a marine is still not going to work. i still think this drone balancing vs 8:30 minute timings, 9:30 minute timings or 3oc builds is kinda hard to scout against a terran who is on top of his game to deny the scouting, but most of the time they dont even bother and most zergs in EU dont even bother trying to scout they just build units blindly and if terran did 3oc they fight from behind and usually lose if the terran is good enough lol but throwing in the queen buff all of a sudden now i dont fear 3oc builds at all since i feel safe to take my 3rd hatch on my 3rd base rather than a macro hatch and that itself gives alot more potential into the macro game
Im only a mid high master zerg on NA, But I agree, The queen buff has let me feel safe to take a super early third. I have been modeling my z v t after my z v p with a quick 3 hatch. It's just a matter of feeling out the speed and drone timings, (dual gas at 36-44 (with 2 drones in each geyser) off a gasless expand feels alright, to get speed up to deal with helion pressure off of 1 rax fe type builds. I was able to defend against banshees after i scouted just a few helions and marines, 1 spine at nat and third seemed alright. with 6 gas I was able to go into double evo and spire after defending those pushes with a few banes and lots of lings. I tooka macro hatch in addition to my third around 70 supply. I would doubtless say the queen buff has opened ALOT of possibilites z v t. It feels really good when I don't have to roach ling bane all in, and I can play out a macro game with strong mechanics against a 3cc. I am not sure how scouting with these quicker ovies will go at higher levels though.
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On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
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On May 13 2012 03:57 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit.
gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
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I really really like this patch. Now fix lategame TvP.
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On May 13 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 03:57 Cereb wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit. gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
Hehe, I'll try to remember that 
GL in the future man!
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On May 13 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 03:57 Cereb wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit. gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn!
just wait until my 1 spine evo 3 queens abuse ur zealots trying to get something done :-)
remember +1 zealots vs evos, hydra dens and sunkens? zerg needed that to survive i dont see why its not efficient in this game too
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I just know, that now you can't play anything in tvz anymore. The matchup is ruined and I lose about 100%!
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at least they did away with the 50 energy thing, that woulda been hellllllllla imba. But the overlord + queen range definitely makes it almost impossible for P / T to harass Z early now. I did switch to Z because of the changes, with instant results, already have a higher win % on ladder and not even good with them yet.
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On May 13 2012 05:02 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 03:57 Cereb wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit. gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn! just wait until my 1 spine evo 3 queens abuse ur zealots trying to get something done :-) remember +1 zealots vs evos, hydra dens and sunkens? zerg needed that to survive i dont see why its not efficient in this game too
imo if u 4hatch and do that style u would die to an 8gate allin, protoss can open 4g and adapt their followup pretty easily, if i scout ur spine evo wall i can then start warping in zeal sentrys while adding 4gates then attack with zeal sentry stalker, ur lair would be super delayed so no roach speed or burrow
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On May 13 2012 05:06 ChosenSC2 wrote:
at least they did away with the 50 energy thing, that woulda been hellllllllla imba. But the overlord + queen range definitely makes it almost impossible for P / T to harass Z early now. I did switch to Z because of the changes, with instant results, already have a higher win % on ladder and not even good with them yet.
You aren´t serious, are you? I mean if 5 zealots walk into your third with only 1 queen the two additional shots won´t change a whole lot i believe.
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I dont see how a 4gate is going to be nullified by this change?
If you have 4 queens on 3 hatches which is standard after going two quick expoes, one will be spreading creep and the other three will be divided on three different hatches.
1) It's going to take time to get all your queens to the place where the zealots are warped in, and if he chooses to defend with his queens he loses injects and tumors.
2) Queen dps is insufficient vs zealots, even if you can kite them more easily now (you could kite zealots pre-patch) you can still warp in faster than they die, forcing units from the zerg and probably a drone pull if there weren't units already.
I admit i haven't read the thread, but it just seemed weird to me. Also, Stephano does not max on 11 minuts after defending pressure, 11:11 was his record when being allowed to macro freely.
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On May 13 2012 05:10 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:02 MorroW wrote:On May 13 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 03:57 Cereb wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ I really respect the fact that you are able to change your statement. Regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" in this case, it shows good character to be able to change a statement based on what you find. A skill that if more people had, the forums would be a blessing to visit. gotta admit when ur wrong : D, ppl usually think i whine without any reason but im not that stubborn! just wait until my 1 spine evo 3 queens abuse ur zealots trying to get something done :-) remember +1 zealots vs evos, hydra dens and sunkens? zerg needed that to survive i dont see why its not efficient in this game too imo if u 4hatch and do that style u would die to an 8gate allin, protoss can open 4g and adapt their followup pretty easily, if i scout ur spine evo wall i can then start warping in zeal sentrys while adding 4gates then attack with zeal sentry stalker, ur lair would be super delayed so no roach speed or burrow
i never said anything about a 4th hatch :p
and like i wrote earlier in this thread i dont expect it to beat 8gateways, for later i need units yep
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I'm more concered about why you came to that intial argument in the first place. Why would you assume the attack range would have any benefit in holding off 4 gate pressure?
I guess Idra's right you really are just an idiot. Coming to conclusions like that without even testing. Very sad indeed.
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EPT
