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On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder  Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
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How does queen buff help us against mothership and mass archon colo storm?
How does queen buff help us against mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
I rest my case.
Longer range on queens=>more defending capabilities=>less units needed=>more drones=>more minerals lategame=>better army vs mothership and mass archon colo storm?/mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
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On May 13 2012 00:37 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +How does queen buff help us against mothership and mass archon colo storm?
How does queen buff help us against mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
I rest my case. Longer range on queens=>more defending capabilities=>less units needed=>more drones=>more minerals lategame=>better army vs mothership and mass archon colo storm?/mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
1 queen = 3 drones.
I rest my case
And FYI.. queens will not stop any kind of stalker/zealot warp pressure. And if hes skipping roaches, hes losing even more larva and drone capability.
Any spine he makes is -3 drones as well.
Why do people think that queens are some kind of super-tank now that they have a range buff? They still die just as fast and do just the same amount of damage. Kiting "MIGHT" work against zealots but you have to have creep for it to be of any use.. and last time I checked a zealot damn near if not completely beats a queen 1 on 1.. so 150 minerals vs 100 who's being more cost effective?
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On May 13 2012 00:31 Th1rdEye wrote:
Seems like no matter what happens someone will whine that thier race is underpowered.
Toss and Terran can still win against zerg, stop fuckin crying. thank you
How does queen buff help us against mothership and mass archon colo storm?
How does queen buff help us against mass mech units or a turtling terran on 5 bases?
I rest my case.
The case is rested guys. Queens will not help in late game ZvP and ZvT so obviously its not that big of a deal. Toss and Terran can still win so everyone should stop talking about balance.
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On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you defend with speedlings, you are less larvaefficient, so you have to make up for it with earlier queens or something else, which costs something.
Sorry, but all of those arguements are completly untested yet, even TT1's. It all might turn out like you and TT1 say, but we will only know, once (and if) zergs go for those builds and figure out the timings for them. Right now it's a bunch of theorycraft that sounds as unrealistic as: "just go stargate and harass where his 5queens are not - remember they have to stay together to defend against a possible 4gate+1".
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On May 12 2012 23:27 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 23:18 warcralft wrote:
I was expecting terrans to complain. But TT1?(A toss) complaining.. Its not like queens got a damage buff, zealots still deal fine with them since they cant kite.. Ppl like you shouldn't be able to post on forums. You're addressing one of the best protoss in the world and you don't even think before you post. Obviously a range buff IS a damage buff vs melee units.....
lol.....
post like these is what makes me lose all kinds of hope for this community.
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On May 12 2012 08:31 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:30 -Kira wrote:
i can't believe i'm reading this lol. Behold, mighty queens are gonna defend 4 gates now... hilarious. It is hilarious because not a single competent zerg has died to a 4 gate since 2011.
...Nestea isn't a competent zerg? He died to a 3 gate by MC in the upndown matches from last GSL.
I've see stephano vs Mana from IEM WC for a game where he should have died to a 4 gate but mana left his door open and died to a slowling counter.
Also OP is talking about 4 gate after FFE and the point is clearly not to kill the zerg...
Nonetheless completely disagree with OP.
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On May 12 2012 15:18 Mr Showtime wrote:
I see no compelling argument here. Nothing but a whine. Stargate openings are now weaker because queen's got a ground range buff? Really? Did you even put thought into that point? This is far from a "legit discussion," but that's not for me to decide......
Here's a compelling argument. Remember when roaches had range 3? They were that unit that nobody ever made. Now, with only changing the range from 3 -> 4, people are making roaches a large portion of their army often in TvZ and some people are building nothing but roaches in PvZ.
Imagine if they went from range 3 -> 5.... now look at the queen again, weren't people also saying "queens aren't very good at combat" with the addition of "they're pretty good against air though". Now, you give me an argument for why these two buffs aren't comparable but more extreme for the queens. Obviously mass queen has an infrastructure problem, so I don't expect 200 food queen pushes, but still - let's not pretend we don't know anything about the effects of range buffs.
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On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches
If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might.
Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
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I can no longer put any 2rax pressure on zerg because the queens just target fire the marines too well while zerglings provide the buffer. Queens also kite marines now
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On May 12 2012 16:09 Ryndika wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:54 shmee wrote:On May 12 2012 13:37 Ryndika wrote:On May 12 2012 13:34 shmee wrote:On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote:As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking. SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary. e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech* Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or... Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore? I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention? Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby. I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese. What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about? And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them. I'm not complaining anything I just shared my thoughts and only one of them which could be kept complaint is that the change wasn't needed and was unnecessary. Your gameplay sounds like you are under diamond so this isn't about races or units... And there's also one victim that many ppl havent spoken about. Reaper... Blizz keeps hitting dead horse. ;( By allins I mean the popular baneling roach for example or any of that sort that just comes out of 2base. Not like it's unscoutable but some builds may have little harder time. You also remind me of general wowplayers who take a side and defend one race over another and yell for buffs for "us" and nerfs for "them" like other race is your enemy. And everyone playing other race has worse opinion by default.
Argue what I said. Don't just use vague insults to my character and talk down to me.
It's a HUGE investment to go mass (5+) queen, which is what everyone's crying about itt. Bitching about losing to that is the equivalent of me going and bitching about terran because I tried to baneling bust and he had 7 bunkers and then claiming that bunkers need to be nerfed.
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On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle
pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech
i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
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On May 13 2012 01:03 GhostLink wrote:
I can no longer put any 2rax pressure on zerg because the queens just target fire the marines too well while zerglings provide the buffer. Queens also kite marines now
2 rax pressure is easily counterable to start with.. the only thing it poses a threat is when you put the bunkers in some kind of poopy ass position where we cant hit the marines behind... now it truly comes down to micro, not you just putting bunkers and hiding behind them
Any zerg who scouts will stop a 2 rax anyway. They nerfed barracks build time a long time ago bud
P.s. thinking about it more, a properly timed 2 rax will have bunkres going down before queens even pop out, even off a 15 hatch 15 poolish build. If they go even later like 16 hatch 17 pool, its even later.
The only thing I can see this really affectiing is making reapers even more useless, tbh. -- A unit they should remove in HOTS or give some kind of ability anyway to change that anyway.
As far as the creep spreading goes-- us zergs have been using forward moving spine crawlers since the dawn of time to protect our creep anyway.
Shit, let us spread some creep.. come in a minute later with a scan and kill it all off... Saying hellions is useless is kinda stupid, because if you're going a 1-1-1 build towards banshee, or an expand type build involving those units, you will need the factory anyway, and the hellions can greatly prevent and scout a ling/bane all in coming-- so no, hellions arent useless anymore...they hold map control against zerglings no matter what a queen's range is.
Sure they might not be able to deny creep as easily now, but the truth is, a creep tumor dies way faster than a queen can kill a hellion. If you think zerg is going to make mass queens to protect our creep, then you're not thinking hard enough into the matchup and how hard a zerg needs to drone to keep even/pass a terran anyway.
Just get creative. Scan, target all our tumors at one time, kill them all of, retreat and REPAIR.. what did you really lose there besides a scan?
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On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed.
4g is pretty easy to hold as zerg with 3 hatch slow ling / queens / spines and unless the zerg is going blind 3 hatch i dont see why they wouldnt sit on 2 base anyways...
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On May 13 2012 01:12 shmee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 16:09 Ryndika wrote:On May 12 2012 13:54 shmee wrote:On May 12 2012 13:37 Ryndika wrote:On May 12 2012 13:34 shmee wrote:On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote:As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking. SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary. e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech* Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or... Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore? I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention? Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby. I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese. What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about? And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them. I'm not complaining anything I just shared my thoughts and only one of them which could be kept complaint is that the change wasn't needed and was unnecessary. Your gameplay sounds like you are under diamond so this isn't about races or units... And there's also one victim that many ppl havent spoken about. Reaper... Blizz keeps hitting dead horse. ;( By allins I mean the popular baneling roach for example or any of that sort that just comes out of 2base. Not like it's unscoutable but some builds may have little harder time. You also remind me of general wowplayers who take a side and defend one race over another and yell for buffs for "us" and nerfs for "them" like other race is your enemy. And everyone playing other race has worse opinion by default. Argue what I said. Don't just use vague insults to my character and talk down to me. It's a HUGE investment to go mass (5+) queen, which is what everyone's crying about itt. Bitching about losing to that is the equivalent of me going and bitching about terran because I tried to baneling bust and he had 7 bunkers and then claiming that bunkers need to be nerfed.
But it's less of an investment than earlier roach warren and some roaches to defend early/mid game aggressions, "which is what everyone"s crying about".
Oh, and I love the part before where in the same post there is "forcing losses through simcity and spines" and " that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots)".
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Wellthen the op has declared its not as broken as he thought. Id suspect the thread will continue though. Just consider if this is perminent blizzard will most likely buff your toys and quick enough that gsl racial balance will still be terran amd toss favoured.
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On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted?
Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
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On May 13 2012 01:03 GhostLink wrote:
I can no longer put any 2rax pressure on zerg because the queens just target fire the marines too well while zerglings provide the buffer. Queens also kite marines now
If you force extra Queens, then the 2 rax pressure has worked. anymore than 3 Queens early game is dead weight. You cant attack with them and they take 2 supply.
Just dont over commit and go home ...job done
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On May 13 2012 01:57 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted? Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely?
this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime
dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
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On May 13 2012 02:07 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:57 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^ So... you think Blizz hit the nail right where they wanted? Give Zerg a bit more general defense early without fucking over the other races completely? this change affects tvz much more than pvz but imo blizzard wanted to address b.os such as the early 3cc into banshee hellion contains, those styles gave terran map control(by preventing zerg from taking a 3rd) while they were macroing up in the meantime dunno i dont have too much knowledge about tvz to give u detailed answer, u might need qxc or morrow to answer that question for you : )
Well then lets consider you a high level protoss giving this a thumbs up in general and look to them to see if they agree.
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EPT
