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On May 12 2012 13:54 shmee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:37 Ryndika wrote:On May 12 2012 13:34 shmee wrote:On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote:As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking. SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.  e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech* Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or... Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore? I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention? Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby. I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese. What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about? And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them.
I'm not complaining anything I just shared my thoughts and only one of them which could be kept complaint is that the change wasn't needed and was unnecessary. Your gameplay sounds like you are under diamond so this isn't about races or units... And there's also one victim that many ppl havent spoken about. Reaper... Blizz keeps hitting dead horse. ;(
By allins I mean the popular baneling roach for example or any of that sort that just comes out of 2base. Not like it's unscoutable but some builds may have little harder time.
You also remind me of general wowplayers who take a side and defend one race over another and yell for buffs for "us" and nerfs for "them" like other race is your enemy. And everyone playing other race has worse opinion by default.
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^ roach bane is easy to scout... Build barracks float into zerg base. Count drone, larvae not being used, what larvae is being used on, etc.
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Personally i think the biggest problem will be scouting in PvZ as sneaking the probe in might be next to impossible. This coupled with the sligtly faster overlords may spell disaster for the MU as one race gets worse scouting and the other gets slightly better scouting.
The queen buff may or may not be to good, personally i dont like it (for variuos reasons) but its to early to tell what level of impact it will have.
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I was opening gateway,nexus,forge and putting on very early 2 or 3 crono'd zealot pressure. Many zergs are caught off guard by this and took damage or were forced into a lot of lings. It just doesn't do anything now, the zerg can make his first 2 lings expand and defend it easily with a queen and some worker micro.
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On May 12 2012 15:26 Braric wrote:
I mean yes he may be crying imbalance to some degree, however unlike a lot of the community and even pro players hes making statements and backing them with actual discussion, and if you think that a lot of the top end players don't cry about imbalance then look again.
I've seen tons of twitter posts of top Koreans and even GSL champions complaining, (Nestea, DRG, MVP, etc) I mean hell even Flash complained about Protoss in his most recent interview. I mean obviously practicing a lot is always a good thing but there comes a point where frustration of something you may deem unfair can get in the way of that, as a pro player it is their job to overcome this, however I see no problem what so ever with addressing your concerns and sparking discussion. A problem occurs when you take the Idra approach and simply stop practicing and even trying in a certain match up because you think it's impossible to win in.
dude... he has a big name but he sure as hell is no SC2 expert.
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On May 12 2012 08:34 Mutality wrote:If things go completely out of hand we might get 33% of Code S zerg. + Show Spoiler +I think it was Morrow who tweeted this
It could actually be considered a sign of imbalance as zerg has the fewest amount of players of all 3 races.
I can agree that some P early game pressures got somewhat nullified by this change, (voidray + zealot, light gateway pressures) but I wouldn't call it early game breaking. We'll have to see how this one turns out.
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Why did zergs not do this before, if it is so strong? +2range means like 1 extra shot before the zealot pressure reaches your queens, I'd imagine that to not be gamebreaking.
Also after watching TLO getting crushed with massqueen into queen/roach to simple immortal/gateway allins, makes me wonder if this really is an issue. Sounds like way to early to call for me.
Further more, until now, Zergs have been delaying their queens in ZvP for quite some time, not sure if the current 3base builds would even theoretically be able to get those 5queens and the connecting creep in time, while maintaining their economic strengths completly.
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? It's not like Zerg always need roachs to defend against 4 gate, spanishwa had always defended the 4 gate with gasless spines 4 queen build (even before warp gate was nerfed if I remember correctly)
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On May 12 2012 17:42 Big J wrote:
Why did zergs not do this before, if it is so strong? +2range means like 1 extra shot before the zealot pressure reaches your queens, I'd imagine that to not be gamebreaking.
Also after watching TLO getting crushed with massqueen into queen/roach to simple immortal/gateway allins, makes me wonder if this really is an issue. Sounds like way to early to call for me.
Further more, until now, Zergs have been delaying their queens in ZvP for quite some time, not sure if the current 3base builds would even theoretically be able to get those 5queens and the connecting creep in time, while maintaining their economic strengths completly.
@ first point, its not that the queen gets 1 more hit, its that the zerg can kite zealots with queens a LOT easier now with more room for error. a queen on creep is the same speed as a zealot.
@second point, it means you dont need roaches to defend +1 zealots, and with the later addition of gas, you therefore have a lot higher mineral count, so you can more than afford a whole bunch of queens, and you have HEAPS of time to spread creep.
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On May 12 2012 17:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 17:42 Big J wrote:
Why did zergs not do this before, if it is so strong? +2range means like 1 extra shot before the zealot pressure reaches your queens, I'd imagine that to not be gamebreaking.
Also after watching TLO getting crushed with massqueen into queen/roach to simple immortal/gateway allins, makes me wonder if this really is an issue. Sounds like way to early to call for me.
Further more, until now, Zergs have been delaying their queens in ZvP for quite some time, not sure if the current 3base builds would even theoretically be able to get those 5queens and the connecting creep in time, while maintaining their economic strengths completly. @ first point, its not that the queen gets 1 more hit, its that the zerg can kite zealots with queens a LOT easier now with more room for error. a queen on creep is the same speed as a zealot. @second point, it means you dont need roaches to defend +1 zealots, and with the later addition of gas, you therefore have a lot higher mineral count, so you can more than afford a whole bunch of queens, and you have HEAPS of time to spread creep.
As far as I have seen and played with queens against zealots, it's close to useless to kite zealots with queens, due to the long attack animation. It's also not what TT1 wrote, he said the queens would simply tank the damage while lings surround, so I'd think that not even he sees it this way. Only if we put stalkers in the equation which were invincible to queens before, there is a difference.
Second point is only viable for discussion, if the first point does really hold. Also you can't delay your stuff forever. The current ZvP builds already go lair before building roaches, to get the roach speed in time. If you don't do that, you can still have the same army, but you can't have the same speed (roach/ling) or +1 timings, not to mention all the other stuff you might want to get and that are needed to keep a Protoss from just blindcountering roach.
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In a standard PvZ, the Protoss can't even get units out in the sort of early game where queens are the primary defense. Warp Gate finishes at the earliest 7 mins and by then the Zerg will have Lings, Roaches and Spine Crawlers. Queens don't play a primary role in Early PvZ.
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On May 12 2012 18:11 MrMcIntosh wrote:
In a standard PvZ, the Protoss can't even get units out in the sort of early game where queens are the primary defense. Warp Gate finishes at the earliest 7 mins and by then the Zerg will have Lings, Roaches and Spine Crawlers. Queens don't play a primary role in Early PvZ.
When I played ogsvines he got warpgates done at 6:35-6:40 off of forge FE. Just wanted to say your 7 minutes at earliest is wrong  (surprised the hell out of me to). But I agree with you that this queen change isn't going to change zvp at all in terms of defense early game.
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This is ridicolous. Zergs were already getting owned left and right.
We should wait another month or two until we judge.
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On May 12 2012 18:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 18:11 MrMcIntosh wrote:
In a standard PvZ, the Protoss can't even get units out in the sort of early game where queens are the primary defense. Warp Gate finishes at the earliest 7 mins and by then the Zerg will have Lings, Roaches and Spine Crawlers. Queens don't play a primary role in Early PvZ. When I played ogsvines he got warpgates done at 6:35-6:40 off of forge FE. Just wanted to say your 7 minutes at earliest is wrong (surprised the hell out of me to). But I agree with you that this queen change isn't going to change zvp at all in terms of defense early game.
im calling BS, replay proof please.
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Yeah you might not be able to outmacro zerg with your nexus first opening into 2 base immortal now, gonna be hard to win games without that advantage I guess :s
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Could we at least wait and see how this turns out before we cry foul about imbalance? I hated the balance whining about Terran/Protoss from Zergs and I find it equally stupid that people are whining about 'Zerg imbalance' a day after a change.
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Denmark3388 Posts
I just tested TT1's idea in costum game vs comp very easy and the way I did it this is what I got at the 8 min timing:
4 more drones 2 extra queens (5 total with two more just started) 12 supply of lings nearly done 4 gases just started no evo no roach warren no lair and slow lings. Notice I did it without evo or spine crawler which most likely won't be the case in a real game.
I dunno...I think you need atleast one spine at the attacking location cause if you keep trading slow lings vs zealots you arent being cost effective. That being said, if you do this I think you get to be pretty safe at the 8 min. However everything will be delayed and I can't tell how that will work out against a two base sentry immortal push which I personally find alot more scary. Neither can I tell you if I would get the tech up in time to pressure a fast third. I think I need real game experience to know that so I guess time will tell.
But I still think that is exactly the point. This needs way more time and testing but for some reason TT1 throws away all decency and goes to the forum to complain on day 2 :/
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On May 12 2012 07:41 inermis wrote:Poll: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ?NO (720) 53% YES (530) 39% I DON'T CARE (99) 7% 1349 total votes Your vote: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ? (Vote): YES
(Vote): NO
(Vote): I DON'T CARE
I don't want to be rude, but everybody knows that at the moment there are more zergs than terrans.
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Blizzard keeps saying that terran needs to do damage early/mid-game in order to be on equal footing with zerg/protoss. But they keep making the early/mid-game insanely hard to do outside of an all-in. So.... I don't understand these changes at all. It did exactly what they requested though, made early pressure on a zerg almost non-existant
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On May 12 2012 19:42 nucLeaRTV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:41 inermis wrote:Poll: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ?NO (720) 53% YES (530) 39% I DON'T CARE (99) 7% 1349 total votes Your vote: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ? (Vote): YES
(Vote): NO
(Vote): I DON'T CARE
I don't want to be rude, but everybody knows that at the moment there are more zergs than terrans.
So what? Such a poll is absolutely stupid and meaningless anyways.
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EPT
