EPTA legit discussion on the new queen buff - Page 23
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mrafaeldie12
Brazil537 Posts
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On May 24 2012 22:07 Dalavita wrote: You don't make changes to the game because people make mistakes. The way to defend hellions is simple and it's clear. The rest is up to practice, not hoping for Blizzard to make things easier. Bearing in mind that I haven't seen the GSL, If what you've written is true ("the way to defend hellions is simple") then "a lot of people and even Morrow" made a mistake in a simple thing. While it is not impossible for a single professional player to make such mistakes, I would argue that if a bunch of professional players make mistakes, then said defense is actually not so simple. That, however, does not determine an imbalance. In general, in a game of skill (even one with simmetrical pieces... say, a set of two games of chess in which each player uses white exactly once), playing against an opponent of similar skill is "not so simple". In order for balance to be present in a strategy, you need it to give rewards that are proportional to the difficulty of performing it successfully against an equally skilled opponent. Specifically, a strategy that has a significant chance of putting you so far ahead that you've essentially won (say, 10%) should lower your chances of victory by a comparable amount if it fails (so, going to 4/9 chances of winning - approximately 44.4%). Of course, the calculations become more complicated if you include variable degrees of success, as actually is the case. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 24 2012 22:42 Gajarell wrote: You just bind a worker to a dedicated hotkey and shift-queue the figures. Simple. Why, though? What would having this accomplish? Hellions already had a clearly defined purpose that obviously wasn't overpowered unless an egregious, easily avoidable error was made. There are plenty of things in Sc2 which are huge disadvantages if you don't react properly: stimming at the wrong time, missing a FF, not splitting Mariens properly, failing to react to a drop, getting caught unsieged, and so on. None of these things warrant some nonsense like a "geometry nuke." Hellions were completely fair against Zerg because they put a restriction on how greedy the Zerg player could safely play, which is how this game should be. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On May 24 2012 22:35 Gajarell wrote: May i suggest the following change to you, T gets a 100 Mineral PF ability called "geometry nuke", if the opponent doesn't run a worker in a triangle, a square followed by a circle, he gets eliminated. Of course no pro gamer would ever use that ability, way to easy to train against and you can only die by mistake and let's be serious here, they can't be expected to make any of those. greetings If you could make the ability fun, well designed, be part of terrans overall balance then go for it, but until then, stop making useless posts for starters. On May 24 2012 22:43 Meff wrote: Bearing in mind that I haven't seen the GSL, If what you've written is true ("the way to defend hellions is simple") then "a lot of people and even Morrow" made a mistake in a simple thing. While it is not impossible for a single professional player to make such mistakes, I would argue that if a bunch of professional players make mistakes, then said defense is actually not so simple. That, however, does not determine an imbalance. In general, in a game of skill (even one with simmetrical pieces... say, a set of two games of chess in which each player uses white exactly once), playing against an opponent of similar skill is "not so simple". In order for balance to be present in a strategy, you need it to give rewards that are proportional to the difficulty of performing it successfully against an equally skilled opponent. Specifically, a strategy that has a significant chance of putting you so far ahead that you've essentially won (say, 10%) should lower your chances of victory by a comparable amount if it fails (so, going to 4/9 chances of winning - approximately 44.4%). Of course, the calculations become more complicated if you include variable degrees of success, as actually is the case. The issue is that once people get better and stop making mistakes, the chances to outright win the game will drastically lower to the point where balancing around the chance will end up killing the unit off in any other situation. Messing up with queens and ensuring that hellions get into your base and deal critical damage is just barely above the level of missing a critical force field. Sure, it's going to be damaging and potentially game ending, but balancing around top players making mistakes makes for a shit game where better players won't ever be able to differentiate themselves. This is a recurring trend and issue with SC2. Also, people might say that hellions are free because they only cost minerals, but you straight up gimp yourself if you lose your hellions, or even a part of them, without dealing some damage at the very least. You lose all map presence and your followup tank push if you elect to go for one will straight up die to the lings that the zerg can make in one or two rounds. When I open up with a reactor hellion build my intention is to make a 9 minute marine tank push with some SCVs pulled, and if I don't have those hellions pure lings will outright kill the push in a lot of situations, so my chances of success do fall drastically. | ||
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Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
On May 12 2012 07:41 Eee wrote: how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground. I think he meant it effected stargate pressure because the Zerg will (theoretically) be building more queens blindly now, to go with the new standard 5 queen opening. | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On May 12 2012 07:44 Bloody101 wrote: How is this even going to effect void ray/phoenix openings? Wasn't the range buff only for the ground attack? Queen damage wasn't changed either so I don't see why pressures would be that much less effective. Sure the queen might get in a few extra hits, but it is highly unlikely that it would make a major difference in a fight. Yeah it actually doesnt, and the situations where it does change are the ones that needed changes, so the buff is fine. The damage of queens for their cost is still very low, it is just a minor addition to have them hit vs a early gateway pressure for example, and they do come into play vs sentries immortal or any push involving lots of sentries and forcefields... Yes the zerg design is actually stupid and those timings aim on utilize that. Since hydras are fucking useless (i love the unit, I've tried to make it work for months, it's just a shitly investment that can only be made useful by a nydus all in, talking about dumb design... we already are the race that got the less units in the game, why make our only anti air ground unit non-viable? even nerf roaches if it means you buff hydras, 12 mins max out will be less strong which is fine with me, and we'll actually have another option other than infestors broodlords when it comes to a max army), the queen range is good, forcefields are too good mid game, and we need something ranged to avoid those "I canceled the potency of your army with 6 forcefields, you lost", and still, lets say you made 5 queens, pull 2 out to your 3rd when the push comes, it's still very minor damage, you maybe gonna have 2 transfuses for a spine or queens and thats it, not game breaking at all, but heading the right way on the balance level imo. And for terrans, I'd simply say that helions opening were over rated compared to 1 raxx expand, that map control is less usefull than a way better economy, and that I never understood why pros almost never went for 6/7 roaches DRG style who crushes helion opening and give you such an econ advantage once you killed 6 7 scvs. I guess pros wouldnt take the risk on some maps but, 1 raxx is just way scarier in my zerg opinion. and after the 8 mins mark, that rage buff is USELESS, queens are ok-ish vs a very low amount of units, after that it's just same old queen get massacred in less than 4 seconds by a stimed drop etc. So even if i'm zerg, objectively this change is good, and very light, people shouldnt whine about it, and just like Artosis said, it's good because people will experience more things after patches like this, it helps the metagame develop and thats always good, especially for T & P as I dont think there is much to explore in the Z race before HotS | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
i played random this season since the beginning as a way to learn all of the races, and i ended up in top 8 masters in a crappy new div so take my word with a grain of salt (while acknowledging i am a player of all races) i play terran primarily so i will mostly see things from their point of view. prepatch as a zerg player, you have a few options for hellions, but they really weren't good. Essentially - make 5-6 roaches and take a quick third (roaches make you safe vs hellions + let you connect your creep or do some kind of roach aggression just to keep the hellions away so you can macro. the reason blizzard is making these changes (in my mind at least) is so that zergs don't have to guess anymore in response to seeing 4 hellions at the front. I am both a zerg and terran player, i know that 4 hellions at the front can mean terran has 3 orbitals, 20 hellions waiting to surprise me and roast every drone i ever made, a huge medivac/stim timing coming up, etc. Zerg players like DRG, in response to most hellion openers would be aggressive with roach ling bane, and the problem i think blizz saw isthat terran players were harassing the shit out out of zergs economies with low committment units like hellions/banshees when in reality if you send roaches across the map, you're not banking on them living long term, especiallly against a terran. While i like the removal of a "guessing" kind of element here is my 2 main problems with this: 1. terran players have to guess all the fucking time. once you get your 1 rax fe up, or your hellions get pushed back, as a terran player you are in the DARK. you can scan. or you can keep up with the zergs economy and be using mules. one of the most frustrating things as a terran player to deal with is the fact that it is almost impossible to scout a zerg player, and so a HUGE amount of my losses are from overextending with my army because it's impossible to gauge if i should be punishing him based on a small scan radius and whatever information it does give you. how do you know he didn't just make a third and mass units behind it instead of actually playing a macro game? you don't, because when you scan, those drones could be in transit there, etc. i consistently see bad zergs getting wins on good players in pro tournaments because terran players have attack timings planned and cannot scout that they have nothing to be punishing at all and instead need to wall the fuck in and get ready for the movie 300 to happen at their front door. 2. zerg after this patch is too easily denying scouting information while at the same time almost being guaranteed it from speedlings/speedverlords (lol) Why give the race that wins 100% of their games with perfect information, nearly perfect information every game, and take a race who's supposed advantage was their ability to scan around and play conservatively/resiliently and make it so they play more in the dark than the other two races combined? it makes no sense to me. When i play zerg, i feel like i always know what my opponent is doing. When i play terran, i have no fucking idea because i'm so mind fucked about the opportunity cost of scans that it often costs me the game because i overextend. but hey, it's that or lose to larvae inject drones, right? edit: this matchup just doesn't feel right right now. i dislike the options both races have and feel that the matchup will become as scripted as tvp if blizzard keeps doing their thang, chicken wang. i am really upset with this change, i feel that there were better ways to address hellions and tihat blizzard simply didn't take the time to think of them. really though, as shit as 50 energy was as an idea, i'm starting to like it more than changing the base stats on an early game unit that is made in every zerg game | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
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BeeNu
615 Posts
Someone previously stated that deflecting Hellions with Queens before the patch was "simple and clear" but that's not really true at all I think. Most good Zergs knew how to fend off Hellions and a lot of the time could fend them off, but all it really takes is one slight mismicro, one unit slightly out of position and then BAM you lose 20+ drones for nothing. It's just that the punishment for not handling it perfectly every single time was way too much, like if you handle it all perfectly you aren't ahead at all your only reward is simply not outright losing the game, and if you don't handle it all completely perfectly you take an massive hit to your economy and likely just lose. Even without the high potential to lose a good chunk of your drones every game Hellions still perfectly justify their worth by just denying lings and creep alone. In PvZ though I can't say much, it hasn't really effected my specific play style at all. ZvZ I really like the Queen buff however, makes holding off banelings and all-ins just a bit easier. | ||
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Gsk
8 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
As it stood before, there were a number of pressure builds that forced units and required micro to defend against. There were also all-ins which had no intention of just equalising the game, but intended to win right there. Now, the latter have been pretty much unchanged. Queens having extra range means very little against a 6-8gate, or Immortal/Sentry all-ins. What it DOES affect is the effectiveness of pressure builds against Zerg - now, it is easy to kill scouting probes and easier to kite small-scale Zealot/Stalker pressure. This doesn't necessarily make the game imbalanced in favour of Zerg - after all, the stats from last month in Korea showed that PvZ was heavily P favoured - but what it does do is the same retarded thing Blizzard has done with TvP. Early-game is P favoured, lategame is Z favoured. They intend the player to do some shenanigans in the earlygame to even the scales going into the lategame, but now any pressure is normally either a) a crippling blow or b) a failure. This nerfs the Protoss lategame even more, when so far it has all relied on either getting some sort of magical deathball composition or the Zerg screwing up massively. Now, stopping the Zerg economy is even harder, while it is still pretty much just as easy to do some shitty-ass 2base allin. | ||
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ETisME
12632 Posts
On May 24 2012 23:03 Dalavita wrote: If you could make the ability fun, well designed, be part of terrans overall balance then go for it, but until then, stop making useless posts for starters. The issue is that once people get better and stop making mistakes, the chances to outright win the game will drastically lower to the point where balancing around the chance will end up killing the unit off in any other situation. Messing up with queens and ensuring that hellions get into your base and deal critical damage is just barely above the level of missing a critical force field. Sure, it's going to be damaging and potentially game ending, but balancing around top players making mistakes makes for a shit game where better players won't ever be able to differentiate themselves. This is a recurring trend and issue with SC2. Also, people might say that hellions are free because they only cost minerals, but you straight up gimp yourself if you lose your hellions, or even a part of them, without dealing some damage at the very least. You lose all map presence and your followup tank push if you elect to go for one will straight up die to the lings that the zerg can make in one or two rounds. When I open up with a reactor hellion build my intention is to make a 9 minute marine tank push with some SCVs pulled, and if I don't have those hellions pure lings will outright kill the push in a lot of situations, so my chances of success do fall drastically. it's all about risk and reward. that's why 11/11 bunker rush etc were nerfed. you can't kill hellions with queens, and if zerg is dealing with hellions with pure lings, he needs around 20 to deal with 4 micro'd hellions, in which case you would still be ahead because you delayed the third and forced lings. You can still scout the third timing and delay the third. You can still get your fast triple orbital | ||
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Sardonyx
United States4 Posts
On May 25 2012 00:35 Gsk wrote: It's such a stupid and not needed buff. Thank you for your valuable input. Now if you would like to make a valid comment please try to back it with information not rage. :D | ||
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Arghnews
United Kingdom169 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On May 25 2012 01:05 Arghnews wrote: Agree with what's been said. OP. HELLOO. The buff was to queen ground range. And when you acknowledge that, does ANYONE actually 4 gate anymore? Like, anyone?... I can't remember the last time I was 4 gated (dia/masters border); if there is no FFE then something's up, and then zerg will just scout and turtle. If toss is 4 gating, so?... 4 gate is pretty much dead, IMHO. 4 gate PvZ was dead long before the queen buff. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 24 2012 23:17 c0sm0naut wrote: 2. zerg after this patch is too easily denying scouting information while at the same time almost being guaranteed it from speedlings/speedverlords (lol) Why give the race that wins 100% of their games with perfect information, nearly perfect information every game, and take a race who's supposed advantage was their ability to scan around and play conservatively/resiliently and make it so they play more in the dark than the other two races combined? it makes no sense to me. When i play zerg, i feel like i always know what my opponent is doing. When i play terran, i have no fucking idea because i'm so mind fucked about the opportunity cost of scans that it often costs me the game because i overextend. but hey, it's that or lose to larvae inject drones, right? edit: this matchup just doesn't feel right right now. i dislike the options both races have and feel that the matchup will become as scripted as tvp if blizzard keeps doing their thang, chicken wang. i am really upset with this change, i feel that there were better ways to address hellions and tihat blizzard simply didn't take the time to think of them. really though, as shit as 50 energy was as an idea, i'm starting to like it more than changing the base stats on an early game unit that is made in every zerg game 150 minerals worth of flying racks that are faster then new overlords are your scouting friends. Love them and use them! | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On May 25 2012 00:32 BeeNu wrote: In TvZ I haven't seen the Queen buff make a terribly big difference, Hellion openings to deny creep and ling scouts still works if the hellions just sit on the edge of the creep and kill tumors the moment they spread or when Queens try to drop them, I think like 4 Hellions can 1-shot a tumor so you can still slow creep spread down a decent amount. Someone previously stated that deflecting Hellions with Queens before the patch was "simple and clear" but that's not really true at all I think. Most good Zergs knew how to fend off Hellions and a lot of the time could fend them off, but all it really takes is one slight mismicro, one unit slightly out of position and then BAM you lose 20+ drones for nothing. You can't simply "stay at the edge of the creep" and all is fine and dandy, that was the actual change. If you do, you will have those creep spreading queens dealing a lot of dmg to you. The lings aren't the issue, the queens are. Before if the zerg was really determined to attack your hellions you could sink in APM to slowly kill the queens/get them to back off until they truly commit to killing the hellions. Now you simply can't. If you try to, you will take dmg and if the zerg is good, he will cancel the tumor and just remake it when you've backed off. The only exception is, if you are lucky and dart in there exactly as the zerg is making the new tumor, you will be able to kill it and take minimal dmg. And being out of position against hellions, you don't need to be just slightly out of position. You need to be a lot out of position(and furthermore, it's pretty much the same deal, if you are out of position you will hurt after patch) and the terran has to take a risk, possibly killing a lot of drones + loose map control or kill very few + loose map control. Hellion runbys can be awesome, but it's most of the time a huge gamble, unless you are allining/making a ton of hellions. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 25 2012 01:05 Arghnews wrote: Agree with what's been said. OP. HELLOO. The buff was to queen ground range. And when you acknowledge that, does ANYONE actually 4 gate anymore? Like, anyone?... I can't remember the last time I was 4 gated (dia/masters border); if there is no FFE then something's up, and then zerg will just scout and turtle. If toss is 4 gating, so?... 4 gate is pretty much dead, IMHO. I get 4gated regularly. And I mean REGULARLY. Seems like 10% of my games, at least. Then again, I'm a random player that tells people my race, but not everyone believes me. 4gate is so much insanely stronger than people give it credit for though. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On May 25 2012 01:05 Arghnews wrote: Agree with what's been said. OP. HELLOO. The buff was to queen ground range. And when you acknowledge that, does ANYONE actually 4 gate anymore? Like, anyone?... I can't remember the last time I was 4 gated (dia/masters border); if there is no FFE then something's up, and then zerg will just scout and turtle. If toss is 4 gating, so?... 4 gate is pretty much dead, IMHO. 4 gate +1 weapons -> colosus timing -> 15 minute blink stalker 3 colo deathball. It's was a common build.. but if the early zealot pressure doesn't do anything your first colo timing pressure doesn't do anything and usually you just end up getting killed to a 3 base roach bust, or at the least stuck on two base. That's why usually you either see full all ins (8gate) or just straight tech builds such as 7 gate blink stalker, colosus 3rd base @10 minute etc. Though, I still believe taking out early gateway pressure builds while expanding really buffs zergs a bit too much. If people are not greedy and put down their roach warren at the correct times it's incredibly easy to hold any of those pressures.. you're just forced to make units. That's the point >< | ||
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