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On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote:As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking. SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary.  e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or...
Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
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On May 12 2012 13:34 shmee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote:As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking. SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary. e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech* Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or... Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore?
I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad.
And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention?
Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby.
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On May 12 2012 13:07 MafiaCheese wrote:I am a High Masters Protoss player, and ive been winning a significant amount of PvZ without relying on a cheesy type of 2base timing to damage the zerg economy in order to win. There are other avenues and builds to be discovered and refined that allow us to beat zergs who have fully saturated 5 bases. I remember zerg often used to complain that a 3 base protoss was op and unbeatable. Then somewhere along the lines, 2 base pvz play became the standard and ppl gave up on the idea of Dragging out a PvZ, even when the mothership was shown to be such a powerfull late game answer. Now i guess what im trying to say is that i dont really see zerg queen range vs ground as a big deal because there are plenty of viable PvZ builds and styles that dont rely on the lame 2 base all-ins everyone has been mindlessly spamming in lieu of adapting to the matchup normally. Queen range will also grant zergs a "false" sense of security to the point you made about how they may now econ even harder, which is going to open up new windows for timings and pressure builds to take advange of. All will be well i say its time we adapt this absolutely boring PvZ mindset that we keep seeing in high level gaming and move on. P.S. 10 seconds less of observer build time = more stuff from the robotics, and none of those things are bad in PvZ 
Fast 3 base builds can be viable on some maps for the most part but against Zergs at the caliber of Stephano it's almost near impossible to pull off, considering he can already max out on roaches at around 11:00 holding a third base will be almost near impossible considering Zerg can probably max out much quicker now with the new queen range.
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On May 12 2012 13:37 Ryndika wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:34 shmee wrote:On May 12 2012 13:22 Ryndika wrote:As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking. SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary. e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech* Or maybe throw down a fucking scan. Or get a medivac to elevator or drop. Or use a handful of marines and marauders to waltz in and snipe buildings and queens. Or... Are people in this thread REALLY complaining that FIVE queens (in other words, 750 minerals' worth of units) don't automatically fall to six zealots, and two hellions can't kite and kill fifteen drones anymore? I dont know what you are spouting but things you say are pretty basic and what you do as a followup for the thing I do... Those have nothing to do with queens anyway. Scan is like 70/30 to catch allin unless you rely on seeing gas count or drone count. Depending on build u might need little more info. Harder scouting just means some builds have harder time which is sad. And I don't get how you just casually waltz into zerg base with marines and marauders and snipe some buildings and this is to fix something you didn't mention? Two hellions never was able to kill 15 drones and kite queens just like that. Zerg defense and creep defense is same, maybe they don't need to do it so hard anymore UNLESS you get more than 4hellions. (4roaches, spine on creepedge etc). Simcity prevents stupid runby.
I guess I'm just getting frustrated that terrans got to used to opening reactored hellion and having it do so much damage either winning the game right away killing drones, or forcing losses through simcity and spines (and sometimes even useless roaches with marauder follow-up). Now they're acting like the sky is falling because their ONE standard opener got a slight nerf in the form of a zerg buff against the early cheese.
What all-ins are you really worried about? The only all-in that any terran ever needs to fear is a baneling bust, and that's easily remedied with a proper wall (not just freaking supply depots). Zerg has pretty easily the worst all-ins. What are you really concerned about?
And if your argument is basically that terrans can't automatically go triple orbital because two hellions can't scout the entire zerg base anymore... I really have no problem with that. It'd be like if zergs started complaining that they can't take four bases and auto-defend them.
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I like how it's not even close to severe, "butt fuck it" lets make a pointless circle jerk.
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2012 13:56 The_Stampede wrote:
I like how it's not even close to severe, "butt fuck it" lets make a pointless circle jerk.
Intentional misspelling or not, it made me lol.
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On May 12 2012 13:57 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 13:56 The_Stampede wrote:
I like how it's not even close to severe, "butt fuck it" lets make a pointless circle jerk. Intentional misspelling or not, it made me lol.
The quotes man the quotes
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queens now kinda deny hellions, and you cant kite them. early pressure is also denied, even with rines.
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What exactly was Blizzard's reasoning behind the patch, if anyone knows. They said Zerg has a hard time scouting so they put better overlords. Why the queen range though?
In the current game, Zerg has a hard time in direct fights. Why doesn't Blizzard just buff the +3,+3 upgrades for Zerg. That way, they stand a chance in 200/200 fights.
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the queen buff makes hellion expand pretty useless. But i don't hellion expand anyways XD
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On May 12 2012 14:07 Kluey wrote:
What exactly was Blizzard's reasoning behind the patch, if anyone knows. They said Zerg has a hard time scouting so they put better overlords. Why the queen range though?
In the current game, Zerg has a hard time in direct fights. Why doesn't Blizzard just buff the +3,+3 upgrades for Zerg. That way, they stand a chance in 200/200 fights.
I don't know what game your playing but any 200 200 fight with Zerg against Protoss if the Zerg doesn't clump all his units into one vortex he usually steamrolls the Protoss. (This is assuming he has his Broodlord Infestor death ball)
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reaper opening for tvz seems obsolete and it will be easier to fend off hellion harass and overlord scouting is immense now so zerg should feel pretty comfy in early game
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On May 12 2012 14:07 Kluey wrote:
What exactly was Blizzard's reasoning behind the patch, if anyone knows. They said Zerg has a hard time scouting so they put better overlords. Why the queen range though?
In the current game, Zerg has a hard time in direct fights. Why doesn't Blizzard just buff the +3,+3 upgrades for Zerg. That way, they stand a chance in 200/200 fights.
They said it (and the defunct energy buff) were because zerg players couldn't deal with early all-ins, even when scouted. Not only all-ins, but things like reaper/hellion harass were simply too effective to the point where they were virtually never cost-ineffective for a terran player.
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hmm... so you guys are complaining that a unit that intentionally got buffed actually got stronger... interesting
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Bro, get armor instead of attack upgrades for your FFE--> 4 gate, queens and lings then are kinda useless. Queen does what 2 attacks of 4 BEFORE armor reductions?
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On May 12 2012 14:18 jacksonlee wrote:
hmm... so you guys are complaining that a unit that intentionally got buffed actually got stronger... interesting
they're complaining because they think it's too strong. can you read?
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I don't really mind about the advanced queen range. I my mind, there is just a downward trend for terran buffs and upward trend for other races buffs, but thats not the real point. I prefer playing long macro games against Zerg or some pushes around ~10min. So it is less important for me to denie creep in the very early game.
Also I think the Reactor Hellion Expand is dead, or it is not that big, that a strategy is going to die. Starcraft2 is a game of ongoing metagame
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so we tested alot of b.os out, its very hard to hold off a continual +1 mass zealot warpins(this is assuming the p is newb and blindly keeps warping in units without knowing if theres a roach warren) with lings and queens only however we came up with this b.o in the limited amount of time that we had
pool > expo > take 3rd > 4th hatch(while ur droning up and after ur 3rd queen) > 4th + 5th queen(optional) > double gas > roach warren + evo chamber @ the same time > if u see pressure coming make slow lings > hold 1st push @ 3rd with 2-3 queens + lings > if theres any additional pressure make some roachs > first 100 gas go lair > saturate all bases even faster than normal > maxout on roachs while having insane creep spread + a better eco
b.os like this are going to popup and theyre going to be really hard to deal with, they allow zerg to hold off early game pressures while having an even better econ than before(prepatch)
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I disagree entirely with the OP and until I see a swing in the meta game away from where we are now which is Toss and Terran are winning most / placing high in almost all tournaments bar 2 measly and consequently highly noticeable exceptions Stephano / DRG.
Who else has won anything in last 6 months for zerg? Whilst we have Terrans winning practically every other tournament and Toss high placing in same (admittedly not doing quite so well as Terran but they got a scouting buff too which should particularly help against early terran banshee play / all in with scv cheeses for them)
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Way to much QQ over a buff that no one has really tested, I look at Queens as a necessary evil for Zerg, Blizzard fucked up with the Hydra big style, leaving them with no multi role unit
Zerg has no goto unit early game, Terrans get the Marine and Protoss get the Stalker and this is the reason early game Zerg is most volatile race. If there is one unit i would love to see removed in HOTS its the Queen
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EPT
