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Do you realize how Terrans fight off creep? They use hellions to contain and thus delay creep spread for several minutes. Then a few scans can be used to fight off the rest. Now hellions can be thwarted much sooner as queens can take them on by themselves. Thus at the time you can have an army out to deny creep, it has come MUCH further than it otherwise would have. This makes it much more difficult to deny creep, and chances are you won't be able to stop it.
what you jsut said has nothing to do with anything i said nor anything to do with who i quoted
and good riddance its annoying that getting 4 hellions means they get a third up faster then Zerg
Same range until Hydra range upgrade and though Hydra has higher DPS queen DPS is pretty close.
pretty sure hydras attack faster and do 4 more damage per shot
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Lets take Stephano timings for example. Double extractors at the 6 minute mark. By the time these extractors finish, zerg has 54+ supply. 3 Queens, which make up 6 of that, and 4 lings, which is 2 of that, That leaves zerg on at least 46 drones. 6 drones on gas when the extractors finish, thats 40 drones on minerals. Optimal saturation (or close enough to optimal) is 16 on minerals per base. At 40 drones, you are only 8 drones short from optimal mineral saturation on your 3 bases, and these 8 drones will be up very very shortly, even with taking your gases. Because zerg reaches 3 base full mineral saturation just barely after taking their extractors with normal ZvP timings, I can't see any strong gamebreaking advantage to delaying gas a bit more and making extra queens (which means less drones), and delaying the important upgrades and tech so they can get an economic boost. Even if they did so, the economic boost would be small and insignificant enough that it would not cause the gamebreaking advantage which you are speaking of. If they are trying to drone up 4 bases very quickly off of no gas and 4-5 queens, they will be incredibly vulnerable to a lot of different protoss builds, and the greedy 4 bases would not pay off any more than they do currently.
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The zerg change is major. Possibly one of the biggest changes in a very long time. The number of early game pressures that 5 range deals with easily vs. 3 is huge. That said, I do feel like this may be too strong, in fact I hope it is. The strengthening of a generic early game "must have" unit for zerg gives them room to tweak other zerg units which have so far been untouchable.
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I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot.
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On May 12 2012 11:12 hitpoint wrote:
I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot.
Certian forms of agression have to remain valid or the game shifts towards a greedy macro slugfest without tactical finesse in the early game. That´s not perfect either.
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On May 12 2012 11:02 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:52 Peleus wrote:
The argument doesn't make sense / hold up. In one breath you're saying that they can build up extra queens to hold off pressure, how could they not do that before? If it's vs zealots it's still a ranged unit vs melee so it's pretty much exactly the same, yes a perhaps little easier but still the same concept. Ok stalkers is harder to kite but once more you wouldn't be kiting or doing significant damage vs 3+ queens at the location anyway, even with their old range.
Then you're talking about how a Zerg can punish your fast third, once more how is that related to the queen getting +2 range? It's a pretty long bow to stretch a queen having 2 extra range into making your third impossible to hold.
Have you got any replays to support this?
I respect that you're a much better player than me, however it doesn't mean you don't need to back up what you're saying if you make a claim.
Edit: You claim the logic is later gas because you can use queens to defend the pressure meaning you can drone harder. Instead of getting 3 extra queens how is it different to a Zerg getting 3 spines to hold off your 4 gate pressure?
because spines are immobile so u cant defend both ur nat and ur 3rd base? and u need creep spread to hold 4gate pressures with lings and queens, also by making spines u cant afford to make any extra queens so u have to use all ur energy on injections which makes it much harder to defend blink stalker allin or immortal allin follow ups.. if ur gonna play that style then its much more cost efficient to make roachs instead sorry but i wont answer any other posts related to basic sc2 gameplay
You're saying getting an extra 2-3 queens nullifies 4 gate pressure because they now have an extra 2 range. Firstly, how many units are you talking about pressuring with? 2-3 zealots and a stalker? A spine at the nat a spine at the third and a couple of lings with a queen is enough to hold it - all mineral based, and doesn't count in any way on the extra 2 range a queen has.
You're talking now about holding a blink stalker attack or immortal all ins? Firstly, an extra queen or two isn't going to do jack in terms of holding this. Creep spread helps a little but it's not going to be game changing. Secondly using a spine or two at the third / natural is still all mineral based meaning you're at the same gas timing allowing the same droning etc to take place as what you're claiming is imba - i.e. no change. Thirdly you still haven't proven that having an extra 2 range makes this dramatically easier for the Zerg to do something that they couldn't do before.
Edit: Also saying you're not going to discuss basic sc2 gameplay from now on is essentially like saying "I'm not going to discuss the queen buff I'm just going to QQ about it".
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On May 12 2012 11:14 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:12 hitpoint wrote:
I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot. Certian forms of agression have to remain valid or the game shifts towards a greedy macro slugfest without tactical finesse in the early game. That´s not perfect either.
He said it make's it harder. That doesnt mean it is impossible. 2 range on queens doesnt mean you will never see successful bunker rush's / cannon rush's /early aggression. I cannot believe how many people think that 2 extra range on queens is going to completely shut down every form of early aggression against zerg. It's extremely naive IMO.
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On May 12 2012 11:10 Velocirapture wrote:
The number of early game pressures that 5 range deals with easily vs. 3 is huge.
Name them and provide replays please.
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Come on guys, we need to stop complaining and start talking about solutions. Come the next GSL, MC will probably have come up with a 2-base timing that kills a mass queen opener anyways.
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On May 12 2012 11:20 jsemmens wrote:
Come on guys, we need to stop complaining and start talking about solutions. Come the next GSL, MC will probably have come up with a 2-base timing that kills a mass queen opener anyways.
i think those were invented during beta
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On May 12 2012 10:06 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:04 windsupernova wrote:
I can't believe so many people thought TT1 was talking about 1 base 4gate.... it makes alot more sense for him to be talking about 1 base 4 gate since 2 base 4gate isnt supposed to do alot of damage and pretty mcuh only exists to maybe get a lucky hatch snipe and force units wich if the Zerg makes alot of queens to defend is mission accomplished
2 base 4 gate exists to force the Zerg to make units, specifically Gas units(Roaches), TT1 sad that with the Queen Buff Zergs would have to make less units.
Its all in the OP.....
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On May 12 2012 11:21 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:20 jsemmens wrote:
Come on guys, we need to stop complaining and start talking about solutions. Come the next GSL, MC will probably have come up with a 2-base timing that kills a mass queen opener anyways. i think those were invented during beta
Beta was nothing but people 1 basing and zergs trying to figure out how to fast expand and hold it.
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On May 12 2012 11:21 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:06 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:04 windsupernova wrote:
I can't believe so many people thought TT1 was talking about 1 base 4gate.... it makes alot more sense for him to be talking about 1 base 4 gate since 2 base 4gate isnt supposed to do alot of damage and pretty mcuh only exists to maybe get a lucky hatch snipe and force units wich if the Zerg makes alot of queens to defend is mission accomplished 2 base 4 gate exists to force the Zerg to make units, specifically Gas units(Roaches), TT1 sad that with the Queen Buff Zergs would have to make less units. Its all in the OP.....
but if they make enough queens to matter then they already made the units and you can jsut expand and laugh
Beta was nothing but people 1 basing and zergs trying to figure out how to fast expand and hold it.
no it wasnt
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On May 12 2012 11:17 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:14 Cele wrote:On May 12 2012 11:12 hitpoint wrote:
I like that bunker rushes are harder. If zerg turns out to be too strong vs protoss I'd rather if blizz changes something else about p or z to address it. Discouraging cheese is moving in the right direction, and the new queen range helps a lot. Certian forms of agression have to remain valid or the game shifts towards a greedy macro slugfest without tactical finesse in the early game. That´s not perfect either. He said it make's it harder. That doesnt mean it is impossible. 2 range on queens doesnt mean you will never see successful bunker rush's / cannon rush's /early aggression. I cannot believe how many people think that 2 extra range on queens is going to completely shut down every form of early aggression against zerg. It's extremely naive IMO.
Im not claiming it´s impossible. I agree it´s just harder, as i already mentioned much earlier in the thread. I just argue, that in the current state of pvz, it´s crucial for P to apply midgame pressure, not talking insane early cheeses. Otherwise the Z often gets infinite ahead using stephano style.
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i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about
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Queens do pretty low damage against protoss units anyway since they naturally have 1 armor and queens have 2x attack. What makes me struggle in early PvZ is the dominance of spine crawlers against and force you muster for harassment purposes. Since queens are now a viable early game defense, I think it's time to slightly nerf spinecrawlers so they're not so damn good. Just removing the bonus damage against armored units would allow stalkers to be slightly more cost effective and slightly alleviates the mass spine crawler problem in late game as well.
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On May 12 2012 11:30 mTwTT1 wrote:
i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about
cant you jsut play a zerg?
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can anyone send me a replay where the 5 queen strat deals more efficiently with a 4gate +1 zealot pressure than the usual 7min roach warren?
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On May 12 2012 11:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:30 mTwTT1 wrote:
i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about cant you jsut play a zerg?
a) i have to walk him throught the style so i cant play and b) i need a high level player who has good mechanics
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I'm going to be very blunt. Today I came back after not playing for a few days straight and did normal 4 gate -> blink/colo timings. The 4 gate FFE pressure vs fast 3 base zergs is totally useless now. Every PvZ I played I felt like there was literally nothing I could do.
On antiga I still play 12 gate -> fast stalkers vs fast hatch as that's what most zergs still play on that map. 1 spine defended by a queen works fine with lings now.. Totally blunders the P build and you can't force many lings.
I was pretty frustrated today. Felt like there was pretty much nothing I could do in any of the games pressure wise.
I'm an avid suggestor of Warp Prisms, however, if you can't even get that far into the game without being further behind... I dunno... Just feels like a very big rut @_@
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EPT
